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\"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:02,150\n我請主委主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權\n\n2\n00:00:23,513 --> 00:00:48,807\n還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣嘛對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛不管是什麼防衛啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你\n\n3\n00:00:51,741 --> 00:01:19,524\n那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣對不對啊主委是我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式\n\n4\n00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:44,733\n這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多\n\n5\n00:01:46,004 --> 00:02:00,585\n但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的\n\n6\n00:02:01,866 --> 00:02:18,874\n經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業大全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多\n\n7\n00:02:20,202 --> 00:02:44,313\n但我們的價值是比好幾萬工廠的價值高出上千倍吧是是不是是不是這樣是好那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好\n\n8\n00:02:45,633 --> 00:02:55,317\n就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊\n\n9\n00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:28,161\n這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講\n\n10\n00:03:31,926 --> 00:03:54,106\n以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得\n\n11\n00:03:55,697 --> 00:04:07,470\n交流大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理\n\n12\n00:04:08,425 --> 00:04:37,344\n對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊\n\n13\n00:04:39,045 --> 00:05:03,938\n有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統\n\n14\n00:05:04,878 --> 00:05:30,490\n鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的\n\n15\n00:05:32,812 --> 00:05:59,573\n來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了\n\n16\n00:06:00,033 --> 00:06:22,509\n何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講\n\n17\n00:06:27,532 --> 00:06:55,271\n這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t2150\t我請主委主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權\n23513\t48807\t還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣嘛對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛不管是什麼防衛啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你\n51741\t79524\t那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊 所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛 對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣 對不對啊 主委是 我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式\n80760\t104733\t這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多\n106004\t120585\t但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的\n121866\t138874\t經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業大全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多\n140202\t164313\t但我們的價值是比好幾萬工廠的價值高出上千倍吧是 是不是是不是這樣是好 那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好\n165633\t175317\t就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊\n183500\t208161\t這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講\n211926\t234106\t以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得\n235697\t247470\t交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理\n248425\t277344\t對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊\n279045\t303938\t有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統\n304878\t330490\t鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的\n332812\t359573\t來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了\n360033\t382509\t何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講\n387532\t415271\t這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝\n","txt":"我請主委主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權\n還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣嘛對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛不管是什麼防衛啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你\n那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊 所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛 對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣 對不對啊 主委是 我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式\n這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多\n但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的\n經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業大全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多\n但我們的價值是比好幾萬工廠的價值高出上千倍吧是 是不是是不是這樣是好 那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好\n就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊\n這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講\n以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得\n交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理\n對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊\n有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統\n鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的\n來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了\n何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講\n這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:02.150\n我請主委主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權\n\n00:23.513 --> 00:48.807\n還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣嘛對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛不管是什麼防衛啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你\n\n00:51.741 --> 01:19.524\n那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣對不對啊主委是我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式\n\n01:20.760 --> 01:44.733\n這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多\n\n01:46.004 --> 02:00.585\n但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的\n\n02:01.866 --> 02:18.874\n經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業大全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多\n\n02:20.202 --> 02:44.313\n但我們的價值是比好幾萬工廠的價值高出上千倍吧是是不是是不是這樣是好那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好\n\n02:45.633 --> 02:55.317\n就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊\n\n03:03.500 --> 03:28.161\n這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講\n\n03:31.926 --> 03:54.106\n以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得\n\n03:55.697 --> 04:07.470\n交流大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理\n\n04:08.425 --> 04:37.344\n對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊\n\n04:39.045 --> 05:03.938\n有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統\n\n05:04.878 --> 05:30.490\n鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的\n\n05:32.812 --> 05:59.573\n來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了\n\n06:00.033 --> 06:22.509\n何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講\n\n06:27.532 --> 06:55.271\n這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":2.15,"text":"我請主委主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權"},{"start":23.513,"end":48.807,"text":"還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣嘛對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛不管是什麼防衛啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你"},{"start":51.741,"end":79.524,"text":"那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊 所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛 對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣 對不對啊 主委是 我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式"},{"start":80.76,"end":104.733,"text":"這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多"},{"start":106.004,"end":120.585,"text":"但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的"},{"start":121.866,"end":138.874,"text":"經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業大全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多"},{"start":140.202,"end":164.313,"text":"但我們的價值是比好幾萬工廠的價值高出上千倍吧是 是不是是不是這樣是好 那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好"},{"start":165.633,"end":175.317,"text":"就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊"},{"start":183.5,"end":208.161,"text":"這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講"},{"start":211.926,"end":234.106,"text":"以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得"},{"start":235.697,"end":247.47,"text":"交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理"},{"start":248.425,"end":277.344,"text":"對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊"},{"start":279.045,"end":303.938,"text":"有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統"},{"start":304.878,"end":330.49,"text":"鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的"},{"start":332.812,"end":359.573,"text":"來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了"},{"start":360.033,"end":382.509,"text":"何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講"},{"start":387.532,"end":415.271,"text":"這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時48分）我請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，針對今天這個法案的提案內容，其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在臺灣的主權，還有我們民主的生活方式，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：其實最主要就是這樣嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我們在臺灣如果沒有民主自由，我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧！"],["邱主任委員垂正：今天這些法案都在民主防衛。"],["張委員宏陸：我不管是什麼防衛啦，但臺灣如果沒有民主，今天這麼多立法委員，不管是哪一黨、哪一派的，都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你，那你也要很誠實的回答，這是不是民主的真諦？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！所以我們守護的是這個，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：另外，我們再怎麼樣，我們是要守護臺灣的中華民國，現在就是臺澎金馬，我們的主權嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這是我們最主要的嘛，我們的前提是這樣，對不對？主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們當然是守護我們國家的主權，守護我們自由民主的生活方式。"],["張委員宏陸：這是我們要去做的啦！我先請教你幾個問題，剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化，我想請問一下主委，一間公司小，它的價值就少嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想應該是未必。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼未必！很多公司雖然人不多，但是它的價值超過那種好幾萬人的公司耶，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：全世界有很多這種公司，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我的規模小，但我的價值高，我在全球經貿的影響力跟關鍵的地位卻是非常重要的，那像不像臺灣？我們臺灣在全球半導體產業，在全球科技業裡面，我們臺灣雖然小，但我們人才多，而且我們有關鍵的技術，我們這間公司人雖然不多，但我們的價值比很多有好幾萬員工的那種工廠都高，甚至價值高出上千倍吧，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：既然是的話，你就應該大膽講嘛，這個哪有什麼矮化？我們是小而美、小而精，我們是有實力的，這個跟矮化有什麼關係？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我是覺得用大公司、小公司，如果你……像委員這樣談就很好，就怕過度曲解，畢竟我們不要……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，我跟你講，主委，有的人就是要故意曲解啊，有的人……我們現在聽了覺得很生氣，其實是因為有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在臺灣講話啊，很多人是這樣啊，這是我們擔心的，我們今天才會要有這些法案啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不然幹嘛有需要制定這些法案，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們擔心的是很多人在臺灣，以他的角度，在臺灣利用臺灣的言論自由，然後抹黑、造謠很多事情，我們擔心的是這樣，是不是啊？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以你其實就應該要大聲的講出來，我覺得這個沒有什麼啊，我跟你講，以前小學念書的時候是「沒有國哪有家」啦，現在中華民國如果被消滅了，以後還有立法院嗎？以後還有臺灣或是有什麼嗎？連房子、連土地都國有化了，連拜拜都不自由了，這是我們要守護的一個精神啊，對不對？所以我覺得交流大家都可以交流，但我們今天提出的這些法案，有一些確實是因為你是擔任特殊位置的人，我可以給你一些管理，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們只是侷限在這裡而已嘛，我們也沒有全面啊！好像講的是全面，不對吧，有嗎？有沒有全面？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員，因為過去掌握我們國家非常重要的資訊以及他的位置很特殊，我們要對他的言行賦予相對的責任，這是合理的。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我們今天的修法是不是就局限在這一塊，有到全面管制人民嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有一些是這樣的設計。"],["張委員宏陸：對。好，那一些重要的人我要管理，但我們現在是要給一般人民知道，哪一條紅線你不能踩吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。我們現在社會越來越有共識，比如消滅中華民國主權、併吞臺灣或是鼓吹武統，鼓吹用戰爭的方式侵略臺灣，像這些，慢慢社會有一個共識，而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的說法，這些要件我們想說進一步形成共識，如果大院通過這些立法，我們社會就應該要遵循。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，所以總括來說，對一些重要的人、特殊的人，我們是採取比較高度的管理……"],["邱主任委員垂正：比較高，是。"],["張委員宏陸：但是對一般人民，我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩啦……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是。"],["張委員宏陸：細節就不用再說，最主要的原則是在這裡吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛。我覺得臺灣是一個言論自由的國家，但言論自由還是必須有限制的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你辱罵別人都要被告了，何況你要替我們的敵對勢力宣傳，我覺得不合理。而且我一直認為，對岸一直在講要武統，而且他的軍機什麼的都在做實際的演練，這個在我們來講，這就是敵對勢力啊！這不是敵國，不然這是什麼，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，這個也要讓全臺灣人知道。我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們民主自由的方式，我們就必須要有一些作法，不然臺灣早就被賣掉了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：以前的國民黨就是這樣子被賣，輸給共產黨了，我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員所講的，我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的識讀教育，這個我們會全力努力。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張宏陸委員，我們的召委。","下一位請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}}