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{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 365.431, \"end\": 366.151, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 366.151, \"end\": 366.271, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 366.271, \"end\": 366.411, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 366.411, \"end\": 366.531, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 366.531, \"end\": 366.851, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 366.851, \"end\": 366.991, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 366.991, \"end\": 367.211, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 367.211, \"end\": 367.732, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 367.732, \"end\": 367.932, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 367.932, \"end\": 368.072, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 368.072, \"end\": 368.212, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 368.212, \"end\": 368.232, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 369.946, \"end\": 393.598, \"text\": \"推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 369.946, \"end\": 370.306, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"吹\", \"start\": 370.306, \"end\": 370.486, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"哨\", \"start\": 370.486, \"end\": 370.686, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 370.686, \"end\": 370.846, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 370.846, \"end\": 371.187, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 371.187, \"end\": 371.387, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 371.387, \"end\": 372.707, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 372.707, \"end\": 372.887, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 372.887, \"end\": 373.028, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 373.028, \"end\": 373.188, \"score\": 0.983}, 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\"那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 414.537, \"end\": 414.837, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 414.837, \"end\": 414.977, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 414.977, \"end\": 415.238, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 415.238, \"end\": 415.458, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 415.458, \"end\": 415.618, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 415.618, \"end\": 415.838, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 415.838, \"end\": 416.018, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 416.018, \"end\": 416.138, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 416.138, \"end\": 416.358, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 416.358, \"end\": 416.498, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 416.498, 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967.398, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 967.398, \"end\": 968.419, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 968.419, \"end\": 968.539, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 968.539, \"end\": 968.679, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"呂\"}, {\"word\": \"靜\"}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 968.679, \"end\": 969.019, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 969.019, \"end\": 970.14, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 970.14, \"end\": 970.34, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 970.34, \"end\": 970.52, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 970.52, \"end\": 970.66, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 970.66, \"end\": 970.78, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 970.78, \"end\": 971.14, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 971.14, \"end\": 971.3, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 971.3, \"end\": 971.58, \"score\": 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\"end\": 977.738, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 977.738, \"end\": 978.098, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 978.098, \"end\": 978.218, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 978.218, \"end\": 978.698, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 978.698, \"end\": 979.059, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 979.059, \"end\": 979.199, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 979.199, \"end\": 979.339, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 979.339, \"end\": 979.899, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 979.899, \"end\": 980.059, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 980.059, \"end\": 980.22, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 980.22, \"end\": 980.38, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 980.38, \"end\": 980.52, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 980.52, \"end\": 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\"好\", \"start\": 983.362, \"end\": 983.482, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 983.482, \"end\": 983.542, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 983.542, \"end\": 983.562, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,015 --> 00:00:11,327\n謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來\n\n2\n00:00:14,551 --> 00:00:38,152\n大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院\n\n3\n00:00:39,264 --> 00:01:06,884\n那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎\n\n4\n00:01:08,649 --> 00:01:33,185\n他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻\n\n5\n00:01:34,397 --> 00:01:57,736\n蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法\n\n6\n00:01:58,456 --> 00:02:21,087\n那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有\n\n7\n00:02:22,604 --> 00:02:40,963\n他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了\n\n8\n00:02:42,119 --> 00:03:06,970\n那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署\n\n9\n00:03:21,488 --> 00:03:41,293\n三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了\n\n10\n00:03:50,296 --> 00:04:12,708\n行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫\n\n11\n00:04:17,563 --> 00:04:44,371\n結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查\n\n12\n00:04:45,526 --> 00:05:05,597\n回去查了以後蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧\n\n13\n00:05:09,486 --> 00:05:38,382\n這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是\n\n14\n00:05:39,622 --> 00:06:08,232\n推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下\n\n15\n00:06:09,946 --> 00:06:33,598\n推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密\n\n16\n00:06:35,084 --> 00:06:53,575\n現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的\n\n17\n00:06:54,537 --> 00:07:16,272\n那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來請警政署警政署報告\n\n18\n00:07:20,425 --> 00:07:45,839\n這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢\n\n19\n00:07:47,759 --> 00:08:11,710\n一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會\n\n20\n00:08:14,614 --> 00:08:33,483\n說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊\n\n21\n00:08:35,052 --> 00:08:50,585\n結果爆出來了以後還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個\n\n22\n00:08:56,102 --> 00:09:17,541\n這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長\n\n23\n00:09:23,292 --> 00:09:40,261\n這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了\n\n24\n00:09:41,381 --> 00:10:07,982\n他承認的對啊我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見是這樣嗎\n\n25\n00:10:12,369 --> 00:10:40,149\n不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾\n\n26\n00:10:41,772 --> 00:11:08,591\n那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚\n\n27\n00:11:12,093 --> 00:11:37,797\n他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷\n\n28\n00:11:40,714 --> 00:12:08,649\n那個我不是在那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車一樣起訴一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣\n\n29\n00:12:10,407 --> 00:12:24,338\n還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙\n\n30\n00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:58,006\n我講的是法規上的障礙有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索那是個案來做一個是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊有法規上的障礙嗎\n\n31\n00:12:59,306 --> 00:13:17,482\n刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單\n\n32\n00:13:19,901 --> 00:13:27,622\n這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會\n\n33\n00:13:49,595 --> 00:14:16,738\n應該會應該會嘛有就有沒有就沒有怎麼你自己是法務部部長自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責來請教部長\n\n34\n00:14:18,739 --> 00:14:41,909\n這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的\n\n35\n00:14:43,659 --> 00:15:09,211\n喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去\n\n36\n00:15:10,973 --> 00:15:25,844\n2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以\n\n37\n00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:44,546\n需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個\n\n38\n00:15:45,626 --> 00:16:12,201\n有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究\n\n39\n00:16:13,274 --> 00:16:23,562\n部長查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊好啊我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好謝謝好謝謝黃委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5015\t11327\t謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來\n14551\t38152\t大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院\n39264\t66884\t那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎\n68649\t93185\t他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻\n94397\t117736\t蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有 上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法\n118456\t141087\t那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有\n142604\t160963\t他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了\n162119\t186970\t那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署\n201488\t221293\t三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了\n230296\t252708\t行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫\n257563\t284371\t結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查\n285526\t305597\t回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧\n309486\t338382\t這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是\n339622\t368232\t推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下\n369946\t393598\t推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密\n395084\t413575\t現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的\n414537\t436272\t那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告\n440425\t465839\t這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢\n467759\t491710\t一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會\n494614\t513483\t說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊\n515052\t530585\t結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個\n536102\t557541\t這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長\n563292\t580261\t這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了\n581381\t607982\t他承認的對啊 我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎\n612369\t640149\t不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾\n641772\t668591\t那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好 秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚\n672093\t697797\t他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷\n700714\t728649\t那個我不是在 那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車 一樣起訴 一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣\n730407\t744338\t還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙\n756516\t778006\t我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎\n779306\t797482\t刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單\n799901\t807622\t這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會\n829595\t856738\t應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情 好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責 來請教部長\n858739\t881909\t這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的\n883659\t909211\t喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去\n910973\t925844\t2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以\n926400\t944546\t需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個\n945626\t972201\t有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究\n973274\t983562\t部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊 好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來\n大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院\n那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎\n他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻\n蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有 上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法\n那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有\n他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了\n那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署\n三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了\n行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫\n結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查\n回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧\n這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是\n推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下\n推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密\n現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的\n那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告\n這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢\n一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會\n說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊\n結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個\n這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長\n這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了\n他承認的對啊 我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎\n不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾\n那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好 秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚\n他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷\n那個我不是在 那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車 一樣起訴 一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣\n還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙\n我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎\n刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單\n這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會\n應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情 好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責 來請教部長\n這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的\n喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去\n2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以\n需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個\n有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究\n部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊 好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.015 --> 00:11.327\n謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來\n\n00:14.551 --> 00:38.152\n大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院\n\n00:39.264 --> 01:06.884\n那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎\n\n01:08.649 --> 01:33.185\n他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻\n\n01:34.397 --> 01:57.736\n蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法\n\n01:58.456 --> 02:21.087\n那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有\n\n02:22.604 --> 02:40.963\n他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了\n\n02:42.119 --> 03:06.970\n那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署\n\n03:21.488 --> 03:41.293\n三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了\n\n03:50.296 --> 04:12.708\n行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫\n\n04:17.563 --> 04:44.371\n結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查\n\n04:45.526 --> 05:05.597\n回去查了以後蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧\n\n05:09.486 --> 05:38.382\n這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是\n\n05:39.622 --> 06:08.232\n推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下\n\n06:09.946 --> 06:33.598\n推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密\n\n06:35.084 --> 06:53.575\n現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的\n\n06:54.537 --> 07:16.272\n那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來請警政署警政署報告\n\n07:20.425 --> 07:45.839\n這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢\n\n07:47.759 --> 08:11.710\n一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會\n\n08:14.614 --> 08:33.483\n說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊\n\n08:35.052 --> 08:50.585\n結果爆出來了以後還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個\n\n08:56.102 --> 09:17.541\n這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長\n\n09:23.292 --> 09:40.261\n這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了\n\n09:41.381 --> 10:07.982\n他承認的對啊我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見是這樣嗎\n\n10:12.369 --> 10:40.149\n不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾\n\n10:41.772 --> 11:08.591\n那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚\n\n11:12.093 --> 11:37.797\n他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷\n\n11:40.714 --> 12:08.649\n那個我不是在那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車一樣起訴一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣\n\n12:10.407 --> 12:24.338\n還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙\n\n12:36.516 --> 12:58.006\n我講的是法規上的障礙有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索那是個案來做一個是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊有法規上的障礙嗎\n\n12:59.306 --> 13:17.482\n刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單\n\n13:19.901 --> 13:27.622\n這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會\n\n13:49.595 --> 14:16.738\n應該會應該會嘛有就有沒有就沒有怎麼你自己是法務部部長自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責來請教部長\n\n14:18.739 --> 14:41.909\n這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的\n\n14:43.659 --> 15:09.211\n喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去\n\n15:10.973 --> 15:25.844\n2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以\n\n15:26.400 --> 15:44.546\n需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個\n\n15:45.626 --> 16:12.201\n有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究\n\n16:13.274 --> 16:23.562\n部長查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊好啊我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好謝謝好謝謝黃委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.015,"end":11.327,"text":"謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來"},{"start":14.551,"end":38.152,"text":"大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院"},{"start":39.264,"end":66.884,"text":"那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎"},{"start":68.649,"end":93.185,"text":"他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻"},{"start":94.397,"end":117.736,"text":"蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有 上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法"},{"start":118.456,"end":141.087,"text":"那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有"},{"start":142.604,"end":160.963,"text":"他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了"},{"start":162.119,"end":186.97,"text":"那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署"},{"start":201.488,"end":221.293,"text":"三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了"},{"start":230.296,"end":252.708,"text":"行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫"},{"start":257.563,"end":284.371,"text":"結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查"},{"start":285.526,"end":305.597,"text":"回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧"},{"start":309.486,"end":338.382,"text":"這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是"},{"start":339.622,"end":368.232,"text":"推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下"},{"start":369.946,"end":393.598,"text":"推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密"},{"start":395.084,"end":413.575,"text":"現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的"},{"start":414.537,"end":436.272,"text":"那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告"},{"start":440.425,"end":465.839,"text":"這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢"},{"start":467.759,"end":491.71,"text":"一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會"},{"start":494.614,"end":513.483,"text":"說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊"},{"start":515.052,"end":530.585,"text":"結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個"},{"start":536.102,"end":557.541,"text":"這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長"},{"start":563.292,"end":580.261,"text":"這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了"},{"start":581.381,"end":607.982,"text":"他承認的對啊 我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎"},{"start":612.369,"end":640.149,"text":"不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾"},{"start":641.772,"end":668.591,"text":"那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好 秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚"},{"start":672.093,"end":697.797,"text":"他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷"},{"start":700.714,"end":728.649,"text":"那個我不是在 那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車 一樣起訴 一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣"},{"start":730.407,"end":744.338,"text":"還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙"},{"start":756.516,"end":778.006,"text":"我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎"},{"start":779.306,"end":797.482,"text":"刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單"},{"start":799.901,"end":807.622,"text":"這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會"},{"start":829.595,"end":856.738,"text":"應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情 好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責 來請教部長"},{"start":858.739,"end":881.909,"text":"這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的"},{"start":883.659,"end":909.211,"text":"喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去"},{"start":910.973,"end":925.844,"text":"2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以"},{"start":926.4,"end":944.546,"text":"需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個"},{"start":945.626,"end":972.201,"text":"有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究"},{"start":973.274,"end":983.562,"text":"部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊 好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席。開始詢答之前，先請教主席，我們請監察院來，但大部分的資訊都是從媒體知道，所以現在的狀況到底怎樣？不來是不是？"],["主席：沒有來，也沒有書面，都沒有。我們在事前有通知監察院，但秘書長不來，沒有派別人過來，也沒有書面過來，這其實是有點在羞辱立法院。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體建議，請司法及法制委員會發文請監察院說明，因為昨天突然看到李俊俋辭職的消息，但他辭職歸他辭職，監察院總還有副秘書長吧？監察院半個人都不派來，是什麼意思？監察委員現在是覺得自己是太上皇機關，他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹嗎？相關的資訊、全體國人關心的事情，全部都是從報章雜誌上才能知道，這樣的事情滿離譜的，我是建議召委，看會後要不要透過這樣的方式加以處理？我知道召委也滿無奈的，上個禮拜好像李俊俋是不是又試圖要跟你請假？"],["主席：有，上個星期四早上我有接到電話，秘書長希望請假，但我在電話裡回復他表示要跟其他委員稍微詢問一下狀況，但因為其他委員表示還是希望秘書長過來，所以我跟他說沒辦法。他有請同仁拿一份請假的資料過來，但因為我們這邊沒有辦法准假，所以我們同仁沒有收，後來監察院聯絡人就把那一份資料直接送到立法院收發室，就直接送過去了。"],["黃委員國昌：但我覺得司法及法制委員會基本規矩還是要有，他要請假歸他請假，准不准是召委的權限，從召委剛剛描述的過程，顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李俊俋還沒打算請辭，他如果打算請辭的話，那時候還請什麼假，就直接告訴你說他已經辭職了，你要不要叫副秘書長來就好了！"],["主席：黃委員，因為這個部分不需要經過決議，會後我再請我們同仁函詢監察院，看監察院那邊的說法是如何。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。麻煩有請法務部部長、廉政署署長及內政部警政署。"],["主席：請部長、署長、警政署。"],["黃委員國昌：三位早，時間關係就不一一問候。我今天看到法務部跟廉政署提出來的書面報告，老實講，我不知道該怎麼形容，你們在今天的書面報告裡大剌剌的寫說你們推動揭弊者保護法，你們推動什麼揭弊者保護法？立法院都完成三讀了，行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來，你們還好意思在書面報告裡寫說你們推動揭弊者保護法，在書面報告裡寫這種東西，法務部也好，廉政署也好，寫了自己都不會臉紅喔？立法院要審法案了，三催四請，請你們提草案出來，各種理由推托，結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動揭弊者保護法，自己看了都不會臉紅？我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧！","具體問題，上一次我請教部長和廉政署，向廉政署檢舉，結果吹哨者的身分被洩漏，你們說要回去查，查了以後說廉政署沒有做錯，你們是交給警政署政風室，還是督察單位，結果這個督察單位在回函的時候，竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人，這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧？這個事實的經過，我有沒有描述錯誤？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，大致上是正確的。"],["黃委員國昌：大致上是正確的？來，廉政署署長，請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任？就代表我們整個公務機關，哪裡有保護吹哨者的意思？大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者，這個叫保護吹哨者啊？是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是？推動了這麼多年，推動到現在，被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者，這樣處理是對的嗎？來，請署長。"],["馮署長成：跟委員說明一下，這個案件就是民眾檢舉到廉政署……"],["黃委員國昌：事實的經過我剛剛講過了啦！現在我只問結論啦！這樣處理是對的嗎？"],["馮署長成：跟委員講，這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的。我跟委員報告我們現在針對這個部分的改進作法……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，推動吹哨者保護法制，報告都很會寫，教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛！哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識？我問你一個最基本的問題，這樣處理是對的嗎？你都不敢正面回復，這樣處理是不是對的？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，沒有不敢回復，基於任何檢舉人，也不一定是揭弊者，檢舉人的身分都應該保密。"],["黃委員國昌：現實上就沒有嘛！"],["馮署長成：事實上我們對於不保密的……"],["黃委員國昌：現實上有嗎？"],["馮署長成：我們很重視這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["馮署長成：所以對於沒有保密的部分，我們一定會嚴加去檢討，然後去改進。"],["黃委員國昌：要如何檢討？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，在這個事情之後，我們有發現一個狀況，就是當時發交到政風單位，我們都是以密件處理的，到後來因為警政署的工作比較特殊，它的分工是由督察系統去查，後來的了解是，在督察系統這邊的環節有一些問題，所以他們也針對這個部分做了行政的究責，未來的話……"],["黃委員國昌：所以該負責任的是警政署是不是？"],["馮署長成：我們這邊也會檢討，跟委員報告，其實事實上我們後來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，請警政署。"],["陳副主任清華：警政署報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：這個部分處理上是有一些不夠周延的地方，針對這部分，除了……"],["黃委員國昌：目前追究責任的進度如何？"],["陳副主任清華：相關人員其實已經給予行政的處分。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼處分的，會後給我書面資料可以嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來請部長，之前針對監察院的公務車，第一次當立委的時候我就強力質詢，一個監察院才多少人，正副首長專用車將近30台，當時也是立法委員的李俊俋，就嚴詞批評過監察院的公務車使用就是浪費嘛！結果沒想到李俊俋今年年初才開記者會說「柴米油鹽樣樣少，監院風骨不打折」，全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌，所謂的監院風骨不打折，是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容。結果報出來了以後，還不只這樣，還不是只有李俊俋這個秘書長，監委搭公務車去看牙醫，蘇麗瓊。來，請教一下法務部部長，這種行為構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：秘書長那部分北檢已經分案了解了，另外……"],["黃委員國昌：從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：給全國人民科普一下嘛！從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪，給全國人民科普一下嘛！來，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案還要經過檢察官的了解、調查。"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛！就這個行為態樣構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個個案的了解就是據媒體報導，就誠如委員講的，這是一個……"],["黃委員國昌：不了解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體報導的，這部分還要……"],["黃委員國昌：不是很清楚？他不是都承認了？他承認了：對啊！我的確思慮不周啊！用公務車載愛犬去做寵物美容啊！所以我現在就問你，這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在偵查中，這部分我不表示偵查中的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：我們抽象的來講，可以這樣幹嗎？可以這樣幹嗎？還是你也不方便表示意見？遇到綠色的監委就軟趴趴，你也不方便表示意見，是這樣嗎？不回答？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為是否涉及犯罪，檢察官會再了解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！部長可能貴人多忘事啦！來，我提醒你一下，除了蘇麗瓊以外，還有林郁容，接下來還會爆出誰，我不知道啦！我看這個個案非常非常的多。我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的，前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾，現在大家就在看監察院的這些御史大夫會不會彈劾自家人，大家都在等著看嘛！是不是用同一個標準，還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員，監委也好、秘書長也好，自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹？後來這個前雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴，部長知不知道？還是這個個案你也不清楚？他有沒有被起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我告訴你，他有被起訴，他還被判刑了，他不只有被起訴，他還被判刑了，這還不是唯一的個案。再來看，當初我們賴清德總統在當臺南市市長的時候，他用的民族事務委員會主委汪志敏，那個時候你是不是在南檢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是在……我那時候在……"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候你已經高升法務部了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我已經離開臺南地檢。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，很好。臺南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車，一樣起訴，一樣判刑。現在全體國人都在等著看，看我們的法務部、我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣，還是看到綠色的監委，每一個都軟趴趴，不敢表示意見，連是違法的都不敢講，大家等著看要怎麼偵辦、要怎麼處理。北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙？我講的是法規上的障礙，有任何法規上的障礙嗎？如果要去搜索國防軍事處所，要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意，搜索監察院要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要不要搜索那是個案來認定。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！所以我就問你法規上的問題啊！有法規上的障礙嗎？刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎？還是不敢回答？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可不可以搜索就按照法律的規定處理。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是按照法律的規定嘛！怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答？來，我請教一下，法務部部長坐車出去要不要寫派車單？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分司機會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫司機會處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：駕駛會去處理這個派車單。"],["黃委員國昌：處理說今天載法務部部長去哪裡嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會……我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：有派車單還是沒有派車單，這是事實問題嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個派車單會去核銷油料，這部分會寫派車單。"],["黃委員國昌：所以司機會寫派車單是嗎？法務部部長的部分，會還是不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該會。"],["黃委員國昌：應該會嘛！有就有，沒有就沒有，怎麼你自己是法務部部長，自己都不熟？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為要不要派車是庶務性的事情，我不處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啊！法務部部長可以在上班時間去「喬」他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎？我之前問過你這個問題，你說絕對不會發生這樣的事，你確定嗎？你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎？如果有發生這樣的事情，要不要究責？來，請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就依法律處理。"],["黃委員國昌：依法律處理嘛！好，我希望就依法律處理，所以我今天質詢的時候公開檢舉，前法務部部長蔡清祥在2021年9月17日禮拜五上班時間，搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生「喬」私人的訴訟，法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎？你之前是跟我講：絕對不會有這樣的事。現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情，法務部要不要調查？還是他卸任了，沒有關係？要不要調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：再來了解？我今天公開檢舉，請法務部回去查2021年9月17日部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單，會後送司法及法制委員會，有沒有問題？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？下班以前送來可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是兩個禮拜？"],["黃委員國昌：這樣還要拖兩個禮拜，給你一個禮拜夠久了啦！我今天公開檢舉，法務部部長在這邊承諾，說要回去了解，我希望不是雷聲大雨點小。","第二個，有沒有這個事情，這是客觀存在的歷史事實，我今天公開檢舉，蔡清祥當初有沒有請假？是不是搭公務車去的？可以在上班時間去「喬」他好朋友的訴訟喔？官箴敗壞至此啊！我當初要質詢這件事情的時候，蔡清祥下臺了，下臺歸下臺，就跟李俊俋一樣，該追究的法律責任一樣要追究。部長，查前部長會不會有壓力？會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就依法來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：就依法來處理，好！我們拭目以待，看你如何依法來處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。麻煩羅委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}