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世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 56.474, \"end\": 56.594, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 56.594, \"end\": 56.854, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 56.854, \"end\": 56.954, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 56.954, \"end\": 57.034, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 57.034, \"end\": 57.194, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 57.194, \"end\": 59.256, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 59.256, \"end\": 59.356, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"俊\", \"start\": 59.356, \"end\": 59.496, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"毅\", \"start\": 59.496, \"end\": 59.576, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 59.576, \"end\": 59.716, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 59.716, \"end\": 60.456, \"score\": 0.886}, 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\"夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"夾\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 447.27, \"end\": 447.35, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 447.35, \"end\": 447.43, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 447.43, \"end\": 447.61, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 447.61, \"end\": 448.59, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 448.59, \"end\": 448.73, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 448.73, \"end\": 448.85, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 448.85, \"end\": 449.25, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 449.25, \"end\": 449.931, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 449.931, \"end\": 450.231, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 450.231, \"end\": 450.391, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 450.391, \"end\": 451.732, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 451.732, \"end\": 452.252, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"夾\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 452.252, \"end\": 452.352, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 452.352, \"end\": 452.752, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 452.752, \"end\": 452.912, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 452.912, \"end\": 453.272, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"素\", \"start\": 453.272, \"end\": 453.752, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"攤\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 453.752, \"end\": 453.893, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 453.893, \"end\": 454.313, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 454.313, \"end\": 454.633, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"素\", \"start\": 454.633, \"end\": 454.953, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"攤\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 454.953, \"end\": 455.953, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 455.953, \"end\": 456.594, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"即\", \"start\": 456.594, \"end\": 456.894, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 456.894, \"end\": 457.114, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 457.114, \"end\": 457.254, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 457.254, \"end\": 457.534, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 457.534, \"end\": 457.694, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"貪\"}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 457.694, \"end\": 457.934, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 457.934, \"end\": 458.295, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 458.295, \"end\": 458.455, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 458.455, \"end\": 459.235, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 459.235, \"end\": 459.415, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 459.415, \"end\": 459.695, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 459.695, \"end\": 459.915, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 459.915, \"end\": 460.055, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 460.055, \"end\": 460.215, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 460.215, \"end\": 460.416, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 460.416, \"end\": 460.536, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 460.536, \"end\": 460.636, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 460.636, \"end\": 461.116, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 461.116, \"end\": 461.536, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 461.536, \"end\": 462.036, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 462.036, \"end\": 462.136, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 462.136, \"end\": 462.777, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 462.777, \"end\": 463.297, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 463.297, \"end\": 463.617, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 463.617, \"end\": 463.717, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 463.717, \"end\": 463.857, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 463.857, \"end\": 463.977, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 463.977, \"end\": 464.557, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 464.557, \"end\": 465.078, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 465.078, \"end\": 465.218, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 465.218, \"end\": 465.298, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 465.298, \"end\": 465.318, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 465.318, \"end\": 465.338, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 465.338, \"end\": 465.418, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 465.418, \"end\": 465.558, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 465.558, \"end\": 465.698, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 465.698, \"end\": 465.778, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 465.778, \"end\": 465.818, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 465.818, \"end\": 465.898, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 465.898, \"end\": 466.058, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 466.058, \"end\": 466.238, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 466.238, \"end\": 466.378, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.378, \"end\": 466.478, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 466.478, \"end\": 466.678, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"溯\", \"start\": 466.678, \"end\": 466.758, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 466.758, \"end\": 466.778, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 466.778, \"end\": 466.818, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 466.818, \"end\": 466.898, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 466.898, \"end\": 466.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 466.918, \"end\": 466.999, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 466.999, \"end\": 467.019, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 474.682, \"end\": 490.443, \"text\": \"我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 474.682, \"end\": 474.902, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 474.902, \"end\": 475.563, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 475.563, \"end\": 476.384, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 476.384, \"end\": 477.085, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"欺\", \"start\": 477.085, \"end\": 477.486, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 477.486, \"end\": 477.686, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"尾\", \"start\": 477.686, \"end\": 477.886, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 477.886, \"end\": 478.027, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 478.027, \"end\": 478.427, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 478.427, \"end\": 478.587, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 478.587, \"end\": 479.949, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 479.949, \"end\": 480.33, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 480.33, \"end\": 480.65, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 480.65, \"end\": 481.932, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 481.932, \"end\": 482.332, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 482.332, \"end\": 482.873, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 482.873, \"end\": 483.193, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 483.193, \"end\": 483.314, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 483.314, \"end\": 483.494, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 483.494, \"end\": 483.954, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 483.954, \"end\": 484.135, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 484.135, \"end\": 484.295, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 484.295, \"end\": 484.695, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 484.695, \"end\": 484.896, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 484.896, \"end\": 484.976, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 484.976, \"end\": 485.537, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 485.537, \"end\": 485.877, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 485.877, \"end\": 486.378, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 486.378, \"end\": 486.478, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 486.478, \"end\": 486.658, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"D\", \"start\": 486.658, \"end\": 486.698, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"L\", \"start\": 486.698, \"end\": 486.918, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 486.918, \"end\": 487.059, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 487.059, \"end\": 487.78, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 487.78, \"end\": 487.9, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 487.9, \"end\": 488.561, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 488.561, \"end\": 488.781, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 488.781, \"end\": 489.001, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 489.001, \"end\": 489.742, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 489.742, \"end\": 489.922, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 489.922, \"end\": 490.423, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 490.423, \"end\": 490.443, \"score\": 0.987}]}, {\"start\": 491.324, \"end\": 518.094, \"text\": \"管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 491.324, \"end\": 491.464, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 491.464, \"end\": 491.564, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 491.564, \"end\": 491.984, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 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所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 519.608, \"end\": 519.768, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"弊\", \"start\": 519.768, \"end\": 519.928, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 519.928, \"end\": 520.268, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 520.268, \"end\": 520.448, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 520.448, \"end\": 520.589, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 520.589, \"end\": 520.729, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 520.729, \"end\": 520.889, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 520.889, \"end\": 521.069, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 521.069, \"end\": 521.789, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 521.789, \"end\": 522.029, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 522.029, \"end\": 522.189, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 522.189, 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\"國\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 545.428, \"end\": 546.389, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 546.389, \"end\": 546.429, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 546.429, \"end\": 546.649, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 546.649, \"end\": 547.37, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 547.37, \"end\": 547.55, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"牙\", \"start\": 547.55, \"end\": 547.89, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 547.89, \"end\": 548.071, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 548.071, \"end\": 548.231, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 548.231, \"end\": 548.331, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 548.331, \"end\": 548.431, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 548.431, \"end\": 548.631, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 548.631, \"end\": 549.392, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"載\"}, 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 663.433, \"end\": 663.713, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"抓\", \"start\": 663.713, \"end\": 664.154, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 664.154, \"end\": 664.294, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 664.294, \"end\": 664.734, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 664.734, \"end\": 664.874, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 664.874, \"end\": 664.974, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 664.974, \"end\": 665.094, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 665.094, \"end\": 665.214, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 665.214, \"end\": 665.375, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 665.375, \"end\": 665.735, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 665.735, \"end\": 665.835, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 665.835, \"end\": 665.855, \"score\": 0.978}]}, {\"start\": 667.135, \"end\": 681.402, \"text\": \"請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 667.135, \"end\": 667.336, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 667.336, \"end\": 667.496, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 667.496, \"end\": 667.696, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 667.696, \"end\": 668.036, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 668.036, \"end\": 668.356, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 668.356, \"end\": 668.556, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 668.556, \"end\": 669.416, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 669.416, \"end\": 669.737, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 669.737, \"end\": 669.977, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 669.977, \"end\": 670.157, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 670.157, \"end\": 670.397, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 670.397, \"end\": 670.497, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 670.497, \"end\": 670.897, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 670.897, \"end\": 671.437, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 671.437, \"end\": 671.838, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 671.838, \"end\": 671.978, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 671.978, \"end\": 672.058, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 672.058, \"end\": 672.638, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 672.638, \"end\": 672.758, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 672.758, \"end\": 672.938, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 672.938, \"end\": 673.118, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 673.118, \"end\": 673.298, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 673.298, \"end\": 673.458, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 679.921, \"end\": 680.061, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 680.061, \"end\": 680.181, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 680.181, \"end\": 680.781, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 680.781, \"end\": 680.941, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 680.941, \"end\": 681.102, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 681.102, \"end\": 681.382, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 681.382, \"end\": 681.402, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 682.318, \"end\": 711.187, \"text\": \"犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 682.318, \"end\": 682.498, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 682.498, \"end\": 682.878, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 682.878, \"end\": 683.198, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": 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\"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 695.702, \"end\": 696.422, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"羅\"}, {\"word\": \"織\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 696.422, \"end\": 696.622, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 696.622, \"end\": 696.983, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 696.983, \"end\": 697.123, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 697.123, \"end\": 697.243, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 697.243, \"end\": 697.363, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 697.363, \"end\": 697.503, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 697.503, \"end\": 697.623, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 697.623, \"end\": 697.863, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 697.863, \"end\": 698.043, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 698.043, \"end\": 698.183, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 698.183, \"end\": 698.603, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, 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\"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 702.144, \"end\": 702.464, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 702.464, \"end\": 702.604, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 702.604, \"end\": 702.764, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 702.764, \"end\": 702.904, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 702.904, \"end\": 703.865, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"普\", \"start\": 703.865, \"end\": 704.005, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 704.005, \"end\": 704.545, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 704.545, \"end\": 704.705, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 704.705, \"end\": 704.885, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"姓\", \"start\": 704.885, \"end\": 705.505, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 705.505, \"end\": 706.145, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 706.145, \"end\": 706.265, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 706.265, \"end\": 706.385, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 706.385, \"end\": 706.485, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 706.485, \"end\": 706.645, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 706.645, \"end\": 706.826, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 706.826, \"end\": 707.106, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 707.106, \"end\": 707.626, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"益\", \"start\": 707.626, \"end\": 708.206, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 708.206, \"end\": 708.346, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 708.346, \"end\": 708.646, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 708.646, \"end\": 708.766, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 708.766, \"end\": 709.006, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 709.006, \"end\": 709.266, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 709.266, \"end\": 709.446, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 709.446, \"end\": 709.646, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 709.646, \"end\": 709.766, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 709.766, \"end\": 709.946, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 709.946, \"end\": 710.107, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 710.107, \"end\": 710.227, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 710.227, \"end\": 710.707, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 710.707, \"end\": 710.887, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 710.887, \"end\": 711.167, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 711.167, \"end\": 711.187, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 711.727, \"end\": 731.684, \"text\": \"好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會注意證據明確 程序嚴謹跟保障人權是 這部分再麻煩 也不可以說違法詢問 或者是中斷錄音 或者是說去醫院視察 結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以 這在程序上面都違法的好 那我再請教一下那個副審計長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 711.727, \"end\": 712.087, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 1096.532, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 1096.532, \"end\": 1096.692, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 1096.692, \"end\": 1097.153, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 1097.153, \"end\": 1097.293, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 1097.293, \"end\": 1097.513, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1097.513, \"end\": 1097.653, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1097.653, \"end\": 1097.773, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1097.773, \"end\": 1097.793, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1097.793, \"end\": 1097.813, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1101.451, \"end\": 1125.971, \"text\": \"再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1101.451, \"end\": 1101.891, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 1116.604, \"end\": 1117.504, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 1117.504, \"end\": 1117.704, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1117.704, \"end\": 1117.845, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 1117.845, \"end\": 1117.965, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1117.965, \"end\": 1118.125, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1118.125, \"end\": 1118.245, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1118.245, \"end\": 1118.385, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1118.385, \"end\": 1118.505, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1118.505, \"end\": 1118.645, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1118.645, \"end\": 1120.347, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1120.347, \"end\": 1120.587, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1120.587, \"end\": 1121.588, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1121.588, \"end\": 1121.728, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1121.728, \"end\": 1122.208, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 1122.208, \"end\": 1122.548, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 1122.548, \"end\": 1122.749, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 1122.749, \"end\": 1123.349, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1123.349, \"end\": 1123.509, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1123.509, \"end\": 1123.749, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 1123.749, \"end\": 1124.01, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1124.01, \"end\": 1125.03, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1125.03, \"end\": 1125.151, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1125.151, \"end\": 1125.331, \"score\": 0.9}, 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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1450.347, \"end\": 1450.487, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1450.487, \"end\": 1451.067, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1451.067, \"end\": 1451.468, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 1451.468, \"end\": 1451.608, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1451.608, \"end\": 1451.628, \"score\": 0.964}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,671 --> 00:00:17,906\n主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的\n\n2\n00:00:21,485 --> 00:00:36,679\n原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生這個監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億那\n\n3\n00:00:40,555 --> 00:00:55,052\n中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章嘛所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它\n\n4\n00:00:56,474 --> 00:01:20,148\n有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來\n\n5\n00:01:22,384 --> 00:01:35,436\n好OK那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來\n\n6\n00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:54,780\n那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至\n\n7\n00:01:56,889 --> 00:02:24,920\n國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱\n\n8\n00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:43,385\n去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些\n\n9\n00:02:44,245 --> 00:03:07,795\n這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了\n\n10\n00:03:09,059 --> 00:03:33,957\n就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長\n\n11\n00:03:35,254 --> 00:03:47,203\n難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我\n\n12\n00:03:50,345 --> 00:04:18,894\n那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的\n\n13\n00:04:20,054 --> 00:04:43,940\n準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長法務部長副審計長廉政署署長還有調查局局長\n\n14\n00:05:00,475 --> 00:05:26,633\n好最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長\n\n15\n00:05:30,666 --> 00:05:51,478\n署長我請問一下因為這一次事情越鬧越大包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道\n\n16\n00:05:52,395 --> 00:06:13,813\n我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用\n\n17\n00:06:14,393 --> 00:06:28,940\n公務車其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁這一次雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來他是說因為這是涉及失誤所以這個他們沒有調查但是齁我還是請\n\n18\n00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:58,276\n這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情\n\n19\n00:06:59,276 --> 00:07:25,489\n這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人潛見覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面\n\n20\n00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:47,019\n夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧\n\n21\n00:07:54,682 --> 00:08:10,443\n我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法\n\n22\n00:08:11,324 --> 00:08:38,094\n管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過\n\n23\n00:08:39,608 --> 00:08:51,774\n作弊不辦嘛我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題\n\n24\n00:08:56,398 --> 00:09:09,853\n這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載\n\n25\n00:09:11,534 --> 00:09:34,157\n譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院\n\n26\n00:09:34,738 --> 00:09:47,187\n他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員\n\n27\n00:09:48,365 --> 00:10:13,662\n是跟委員報告一下就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分就是偵查的部分我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會它是偵查委員監察委員的部分\n\n28\n00:10:14,062 --> 00:10:35,775\n那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了\n\n29\n00:10:36,095 --> 00:11:05,855\n那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是\n\n30\n00:11:07,135 --> 00:11:21,402\n請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候\n\n31\n00:11:22,318 --> 00:11:51,187\n犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎\n\n32\n00:11:51,727 --> 00:12:11,684\n好謝謝委員提醒我們會注意證據明確程序嚴謹跟保障人權是這部分再麻煩也不可以說違法詢問或者是中斷錄音或者是說去醫院視察結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以這在程序上面都違法的好那我再請教一下那個副審計長\n\n33\n00:12:15,538 --> 00:12:33,331\n副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎\n\n34\n00:12:34,592 --> 00:13:01,591\n個別公務員報告個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理\n\n35\n00:13:01,971 --> 00:13:24,517\n好謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查該查辦就查辦好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好好不好那我在那個請教副城議長\n\n36\n00:13:26,958 --> 00:13:47,304\n我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除\n\n37\n00:13:50,166 --> 00:14:01,081\n刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦\n\n38\n00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:25,654\n這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那對啊在這段時間呢被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼這個什麼\n\n39\n00:14:27,916 --> 00:14:48,014\n溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔\n\n40\n00:14:49,133 --> 00:15:08,190\n又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表\n\n41\n00:15:09,752 --> 00:15:37,870\n2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也\n\n42\n00:15:39,251 --> 00:16:00,729\n通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效\n\n43\n00:16:04,938 --> 00:16:15,730\n當天也公佈了才化法而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來\n\n44\n00:16:18,431 --> 00:16:34,509\n2025年4月23號莫名其妙主計總署就告訴行政院給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候\n\n45\n00:16:35,610 --> 00:17:03,562\n問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出業務費用電費\n\n46\n00:17:05,903 --> 00:17:34,249\n那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎\n\n47\n00:17:35,455 --> 00:17:55,420\n你知道這件事嗎知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫\n\n48\n00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:17,813\n讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分\n\n49\n00:18:21,451 --> 00:18:45,971\n再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途\n\n50\n00:18:48,555 --> 00:19:14,069\n所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代\n\n51\n00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:33,455\n那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁\n\n52\n00:19:34,963 --> 00:20:00,058\n比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見\n\n53\n00:20:01,159 --> 00:20:28,101\n因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼\n\n54\n00:20:29,582 --> 00:20:50,915\n你們餓死算了錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦窮人餓死算了啦我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得我們是民主國家欸中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後那你就等餓肚子\n\n55\n00:20:52,176 --> 00:21:13,418\n不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去\n\n56\n00:21:13,959 --> 00:21:41,579\n去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給\n\n57\n00:21:42,700 --> 00:22:09,111\n也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦\n\n58\n00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:41,997\n更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分\n\n59\n00:22:42,777 --> 00:22:50,310\n部長局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理內容我不問怎麼偵查我不問請問有分案處理了嗎\n\n60\n00:22:52,003 --> 00:23:13,719\n這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個因為我們人我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就\n\n61\n00:23:14,656 --> 00:23:30,171\n我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講\n\n62\n00:23:31,502 --> 00:23:53,312\n真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說\n\n63\n00:23:54,612 --> 00:24:11,628\n隨隨便便亂用我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航這都不對好謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1671\t17906\t主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的\n21485\t36679\t原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生這個監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億那\n40555\t55052\t中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章嘛所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它\n56474\t80148\t有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是 這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來\n82384\t95436\t好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來\n97079\t114780\t那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至\n116889\t144920\t國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱\n146780\t163385\t去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些\n164245\t187795\t這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了\n189059\t213957\t就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長\n215254\t227203\t難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我\n230345\t258894\t那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的\n260054\t283940\t準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長\n300475\t326633\t好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長\n330666\t351478\t署長我請問一下 因為這一次事情越鬧越大 包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分 政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道\n352395\t373813\t我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用\n374393\t388940\t公務車 其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以 這個他們沒有調查但是齁 我還是請\n390780\t418276\t這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情\n419276\t445489\t這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面\n447270\t467019\t夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧\n474682\t490443\t我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法\n491324\t518094\t管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過\n519608\t531774\t作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題\n536398\t549853\t這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載\n551534\t574157\t譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院\n574738\t587187\t他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員\n588365\t613662\t是 跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分\n614062\t635775\t那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了\n636095\t665855\t那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是\n667135\t681402\t請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候\n682318\t711187\t犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎\n711727\t731684\t好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會注意證據明確 程序嚴謹跟保障人權是 這部分再麻煩 也不可以說違法詢問 或者是中斷錄音 或者是說去醫院視察 結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以 這在程序上面都違法的好 那我再請教一下那個副審計長\n735538\t753331\t副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎\n754592\t781591\t個別公務員報告 個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法 這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理\n781971\t804517\t好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長\n806958\t827304\t我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除\n830166\t841081\t刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦\n844036\t865654\t這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 在這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼\n867916\t888014\t溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔\n889133\t908190\t又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表\n909752\t937870\t2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也\n939251\t960729\t通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效\n964938\t975730\t當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前 我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來\n978431\t994509\t2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候\n995610\t1023562\t問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費\n1025903\t1054249\t那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎\n1055455\t1075420\t你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫\n1077100\t1097813\t讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分\n1101451\t1125971\t再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途\n1128555\t1154069\t所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代\n1155370\t1173455\t那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁\n1174963\t1200058\t比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見\n1201159\t1228101\t因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼\n1229582\t1250915\t你們餓死算了 錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦 窮人餓死算了啦 我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣 這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得 我們是民主國家欸 中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後 那你就等餓肚子\n1252176\t1273418\t不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去\n1273959\t1301579\t去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給\n1302700\t1329111\t也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦\n1332597\t1361997\t更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分\n1362777\t1370310\t部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼偵查我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎\n1372003\t1393719\t這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個 因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就\n1394656\t1410171\t我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講\n1411502\t1433312\t真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說\n1434612\t1451628\t隨隨便便亂用 我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航 這都不對好 謝謝各位\n","txt":"主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的\n原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生這個監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億那\n中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章嘛所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它\n有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是 這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來\n好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來\n那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至\n國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱\n去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些\n這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了\n就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長\n難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我\n那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的\n準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長\n好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長\n署長我請問一下 因為這一次事情越鬧越大 包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分 政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道\n我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用\n公務車 其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以 這個他們沒有調查但是齁 我還是請\n這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情\n這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面\n夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧\n我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法\n管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過\n作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題\n這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載\n譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院\n他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員\n是 跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分\n那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了\n那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是\n請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候\n犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎\n好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會注意證據明確 程序嚴謹跟保障人權是 這部分再麻煩 也不可以說違法詢問 或者是中斷錄音 或者是說去醫院視察 結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以 這在程序上面都違法的好 那我再請教一下那個副審計長\n副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎\n個別公務員報告 個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法 這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理\n好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長\n我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除\n刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦\n這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 在這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼\n溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔\n又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表\n2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也\n通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效\n當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前 我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來\n2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候\n問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費\n那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎\n你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫\n讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分\n再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途\n所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代\n那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁\n比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見\n因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼\n你們餓死算了 錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦 窮人餓死算了啦 我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣 這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得 我們是民主國家欸 中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後 那你就等餓肚子\n不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去\n去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給\n也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦\n更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分\n部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼偵查我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎\n這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個 因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就\n我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講\n真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說\n隨隨便便亂用 我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航 這都不對好 謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.671 --> 00:17.906\n主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的\n\n00:21.485 --> 00:36.679\n原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生這個監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億那\n\n00:40.555 --> 00:55.052\n中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章嘛所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它\n\n00:56.474 --> 01:20.148\n有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來\n\n01:22.384 --> 01:35.436\n好OK那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來\n\n01:37.079 --> 01:54.780\n那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至\n\n01:56.889 --> 02:24.920\n國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱\n\n02:26.780 --> 02:43.385\n去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些\n\n02:44.245 --> 03:07.795\n這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了\n\n03:09.059 --> 03:33.957\n就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長\n\n03:35.254 --> 03:47.203\n難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我\n\n03:50.345 --> 04:18.894\n那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的\n\n04:20.054 --> 04:43.940\n準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長法務部長副審計長廉政署署長還有調查局局長\n\n05:00.475 --> 05:26.633\n好最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長\n\n05:30.666 --> 05:51.478\n署長我請問一下因為這一次事情越鬧越大包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道\n\n05:52.395 --> 06:13.813\n我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用\n\n06:14.393 --> 06:28.940\n公務車其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁這一次雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來他是說因為這是涉及失誤所以這個他們沒有調查但是齁我還是請\n\n06:30.780 --> 06:58.276\n這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情\n\n06:59.276 --> 07:25.489\n這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人潛見覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面\n\n07:27.270 --> 07:47.019\n夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧\n\n07:54.682 --> 08:10.443\n我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法\n\n08:11.324 --> 08:38.094\n管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過\n\n08:39.608 --> 08:51.774\n作弊不辦嘛我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題\n\n08:56.398 --> 09:09.853\n這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載\n\n09:11.534 --> 09:34.157\n譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院\n\n09:34.738 --> 09:47.187\n他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員\n\n09:48.365 --> 10:13.662\n是跟委員報告一下就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分就是偵查的部分我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會它是偵查委員監察委員的部分\n\n10:14.062 --> 10:35.775\n那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了\n\n10:36.095 --> 11:05.855\n那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是\n\n11:07.135 --> 11:21.402\n請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候\n\n11:22.318 --> 11:51.187\n犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎\n\n11:51.727 --> 12:11.684\n好謝謝委員提醒我們會注意證據明確程序嚴謹跟保障人權是這部分再麻煩也不可以說違法詢問或者是中斷錄音或者是說去醫院視察結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以這在程序上面都違法的好那我再請教一下那個副審計長\n\n12:15.538 --> 12:33.331\n副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎\n\n12:34.592 --> 13:01.591\n個別公務員報告個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理\n\n13:01.971 --> 13:24.517\n好謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查該查辦就查辦好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好好不好那我在那個請教副城議長\n\n13:26.958 --> 13:47.304\n我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除\n\n13:50.166 --> 14:01.081\n刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦\n\n14:04.036 --> 14:25.654\n這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那對啊在這段時間呢被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼這個什麼\n\n14:27.916 --> 14:48.014\n溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔\n\n14:49.133 --> 15:08.190\n又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表\n\n15:09.752 --> 15:37.870\n2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也\n\n15:39.251 --> 16:00.729\n通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效\n\n16:04.938 --> 16:15.730\n當天也公佈了才化法而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來\n\n16:18.431 --> 16:34.509\n2025年4月23號莫名其妙主計總署就告訴行政院給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候\n\n16:35.610 --> 17:03.562\n問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出業務費用電費\n\n17:05.903 --> 17:34.249\n那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎\n\n17:35.455 --> 17:55.420\n你知道這件事嗎知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫\n\n17:57.100 --> 18:17.813\n讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分\n\n18:21.451 --> 18:45.971\n再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途\n\n18:48.555 --> 19:14.069\n所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代\n\n19:15.370 --> 19:33.455\n那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁\n\n19:34.963 --> 20:00.058\n比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見\n\n20:01.159 --> 20:28.101\n因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼\n\n20:29.582 --> 20:50.915\n你們餓死算了錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦窮人餓死算了啦我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得我們是民主國家欸中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後那你就等餓肚子\n\n20:52.176 --> 21:13.418\n不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去\n\n21:13.959 --> 21:41.579\n去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給\n\n21:42.700 --> 22:09.111\n也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦\n\n22:12.597 --> 22:41.997\n更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分\n\n22:42.777 --> 22:50.310\n部長局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理內容我不問怎麼偵查我不問請問有分案處理了嗎\n\n22:52.003 --> 23:13.719\n這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個因為我們人我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就\n\n23:14.656 --> 23:30.171\n我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講\n\n23:31.502 --> 23:53.312\n真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說\n\n23:54.612 --> 24:11.628\n隨隨便便亂用我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航這都不對好謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.671,"end":17.906,"text":"主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的"},{"start":21.485,"end":36.679,"text":"原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生這個監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億那"},{"start":40.555,"end":55.052,"text":"中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章嘛所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它"},{"start":56.474,"end":80.148,"text":"有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是 這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來"},{"start":82.384,"end":95.436,"text":"好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來"},{"start":97.079,"end":114.78,"text":"那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至"},{"start":116.889,"end":144.92,"text":"國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱"},{"start":146.78,"end":163.385,"text":"去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些"},{"start":164.245,"end":187.795,"text":"這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了"},{"start":189.059,"end":213.957,"text":"就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長"},{"start":215.254,"end":227.203,"text":"難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我"},{"start":230.345,"end":258.894,"text":"那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的"},{"start":260.054,"end":283.94,"text":"準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長"},{"start":300.475,"end":326.633,"text":"好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長"},{"start":330.666,"end":351.478,"text":"署長我請問一下 因為這一次事情越鬧越大 包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分 政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道"},{"start":352.395,"end":373.813,"text":"我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用"},{"start":374.393,"end":388.94,"text":"公務車 其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以 這個他們沒有調查但是齁 我還是請"},{"start":390.78,"end":418.276,"text":"這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情"},{"start":419.276,"end":445.489,"text":"這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面"},{"start":447.27,"end":467.019,"text":"夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧"},{"start":474.682,"end":490.443,"text":"我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法"},{"start":491.324,"end":518.094,"text":"管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過"},{"start":519.608,"end":531.774,"text":"作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題"},{"start":536.398,"end":549.853,"text":"這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載"},{"start":551.534,"end":574.157,"text":"譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院"},{"start":574.738,"end":587.187,"text":"他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員"},{"start":588.365,"end":613.662,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分"},{"start":614.062,"end":635.775,"text":"那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了"},{"start":636.095,"end":665.855,"text":"那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是"},{"start":667.135,"end":681.402,"text":"請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候"},{"start":682.318,"end":711.187,"text":"犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎"},{"start":711.727,"end":731.684,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會注意證據明確 程序嚴謹跟保障人權是 這部分再麻煩 也不可以說違法詢問 或者是中斷錄音 或者是說去醫院視察 結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以 這在程序上面都違法的好 那我再請教一下那個副審計長"},{"start":735.538,"end":753.331,"text":"副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎"},{"start":754.592,"end":781.591,"text":"個別公務員報告 個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法 這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理"},{"start":781.971,"end":804.517,"text":"好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長"},{"start":806.958,"end":827.304,"text":"我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除"},{"start":830.166,"end":841.081,"text":"刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦"},{"start":844.036,"end":865.654,"text":"這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 在這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼"},{"start":867.916,"end":888.014,"text":"溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔"},{"start":889.133,"end":908.19,"text":"又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表"},{"start":909.752,"end":937.87,"text":"2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也"},{"start":939.251,"end":960.729,"text":"通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效"},{"start":964.938,"end":975.73,"text":"當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前 我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來"},{"start":978.431,"end":994.509,"text":"2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候"},{"start":995.61,"end":1023.562,"text":"問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費"},{"start":1025.903,"end":1054.249,"text":"那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎"},{"start":1055.455,"end":1075.42,"text":"你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫"},{"start":1077.1,"end":1097.813,"text":"讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分"},{"start":1101.451,"end":1125.971,"text":"再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途"},{"start":1128.555,"end":1154.069,"text":"所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代"},{"start":1155.37,"end":1173.455,"text":"那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁"},{"start":1174.963,"end":1200.058,"text":"比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見"},{"start":1201.159,"end":1228.101,"text":"因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼"},{"start":1229.582,"end":1250.915,"text":"你們餓死算了 錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦 窮人餓死算了啦 我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣 這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得 我們是民主國家欸 中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後 那你就等餓肚子"},{"start":1252.176,"end":1273.418,"text":"不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去"},{"start":1273.959,"end":1301.579,"text":"去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給"},{"start":1302.7,"end":1329.111,"text":"也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦"},{"start":1332.597,"end":1361.997,"text":"更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分"},{"start":1362.777,"end":1370.31,"text":"部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼偵查我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎"},{"start":1372.003,"end":1393.719,"text":"這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個 因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就"},{"start":1394.656,"end":1410.171,"text":"我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講"},{"start":1411.502,"end":1433.312,"text":"真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說"},{"start":1434.612,"end":1451.628,"text":"隨隨便便亂用 我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航 這都不對好 謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時32分）主席，我先要做程序上的發言。我先解釋清楚，因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況，我這邊先說明一下我們今天排這個會議的原因。其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程，當時還沒發生監察院公務車使用的問題，當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億中央不發給的問題有沒有涉及抑留剋扣罪，因為抑留剋扣罪是在刑法裡面的公務員瀆職罪章，我們是希望利用今天的會議了解整個流程，所以我先說明，第一個，關於這個會議，有人說是不是在針對李俊俋秘書長？事實上不是，這個是之前就已經開會決定的。第二個，有關請假的部分，這段時間，司法及法制委員會經歷了總統府秘書長不來，國安會秘書長也不來，現在又遇到了監察院秘書長也不來……"],["王委員義川：還有立法院秘書長也不來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，立法院秘書長也沒有來，謝謝王委員的補充。我們現在遇到的狀況是，我們面對總統府以及監察院這些人都不來，這樣我們委員會存在的意義是什麼？立法院等於不受其他機關的尊重嘛！尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候，他們在執行公務的時候，他們使用的也是國家的稅金、人民的納稅錢啊！甚至國安會組織法第八條就明確載明、明文規定，他要向立法院負責，但是他說不來就不來。所以我這邊要說明一下，我們現在面對的就是，我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長，包括王義川剛剛所補充的，就都沒有人要來，我不懂在民主國家的國會，世界上有哪一個民主國家的國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼地弱？去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲，那些權力最早都是民進黨提出來的，我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史新聞上面查到，所有國會改革的那些法案，基本上最早的草案都是民進黨所提出來的，這些權力在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的，包括官員來不可以說謊；包括官員不可以任意地拒絕到立法院，結果到我們臺灣來全部變成違憲、全部變成無法監督。去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督，全部被大法官沒收了，結果今年連預算都不可以管了。立法院明明是民主國家代議士的最高民意機關，結果我們今天不止在法律上面、行政上面無法監督，現在連預算都不可以監督了，這是我們現在遇到的問題，難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來，當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的，就是本院的秘書長，難怪！什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會，這也是世界罕見的。","假單的部分，在禮拜四早上，確實秘書長有打電話給我，我當時是有跟他說，我必須要問一下其他委員，如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來，我們就不可能准假，因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益。當時確實幾位委員都表明希望秘書長要來，他們有一些問題要請教，所以我們就沒有准假，監察院的作法就是把假單直接送到立法院的總收發室，他們的作法就是這樣，也沒有得到我們這邊准假，整個過程、經過是這樣。因為這個部分大家一直有問題，從早上一直問到現在，所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明，謝謝主席。","最後我再補充一下，監察院秘書長沒有來，但是他也沒有指派人過來，也沒有提書面，這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來，至少你人不想講，書面講一下也都沒有，這邊補充。","接下來我想請法務部長、副審計長、廉政署署長以及調查局局長。"],["主席：有請部長等。"],["吳委員宗憲：四位早安，四位辛苦了！我先請教廉政署署長。署長，有關監察院使用車輛的案子，這一次事情越鬧越大，連秘書長都已經請辭了，關於這個部分，署長知不知道政風上一次專案稽核監察院內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前？"],["馮署長成：我們會定期要求我們各政風單位去做……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，上一次是什麼時候？"],["馮署長成：但上一次是什麼時候做，我不清楚他們監察院的作業時間。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，不然這個會後再麻煩你提供，因為這是比較細的東西，我想署長可能不知道。"],["馮署長成：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩會後提供。我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車，過往在實務上面有非常多公務員濫用公務車，其實後來都有判刑的紀錄，這一次雖然有監委跳出來，我印象中是葉監委跳出來說，因為這是涉己事務，他們沒有調查。但我還是請大家回去看一下，監察委員有一個自律規範，跟我們立委一樣，依第十七條跟第十九條規定，其實監委違法的話，監察院內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的，所以不是沒有法可辦，監察院也不是化外之地。因為今天監察院都沒有派任何一個人來，所以我在這邊可能就是跟署長、部長以及調查局長報告這件事情，這個行為有可能違法。剛剛黃委員在問部長的時候，部長並沒有一個明確的說明，部長說這個是個案，所以沒有辦法說明是哪一條。我在這邊跟部長報告，就我個人的淺見，這個行為至少在刑法上面他可能有詐欺、背信或侵占這幾條的犯行，當然坊間有人說，這個還涉及貪污治罪條例。這個可能就是認事用法上檢察官自己的判斷，像我20年的檢察官生涯中有11年在辦肅貪，依我這11年辦肅貪的經驗，這個行為即便沒有構成貪污治罪條例，在刑法上可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文，這個部分我再跟部長報告有這個狀況，也跟署長報告有這個狀況。而且這些條文的追訴權時效應該是20年，沒有錯吧？背信、詐欺的追訴權時效是20年，這個是補充剛剛黃委員問部長的部分。","我再請教一下署長還有調查局局長，依據監察院公務車管理要點第八點，其實有要求這些公務車出去的時候，必須要詳細記載去了哪裡、做了什麼，我不知道這一次是不是有記載帶小狗去美容？因為這才是當時派車出去的目的，這個部分可能要稍微了解一下。最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件，調查局長也說過，作弊不辦嗎？我覺得有道理。偽造文書也是犯罪，所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分，我們沒有意見。如果依據這個管理要點第八點既然要詳實記載，會不會有登載不實的問題？這就是一個我們要去思考的。因為今天我們又看到很多人爆料，有人接送小孩出國，還是去看牙醫等等，他們是不是如實記載？比如這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容？我不知道。既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業，是不是也可以稍微讓全民了解一下，到底發生了什麼狀況？好不好？署長跟局長，這個部分可否請兩位去了解？"],["馮署長成：是……"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我國的法制沒有不能夠調查監察院，只是搜索之前，要先通知他們、通知他的主官，這個在刑事訴訟法有規定，剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題，我想我國並沒有法制規定不可以調查監察委員。"],["馮署長成：這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向，在司法偵查的部分，我看那個都已經向北檢提告了，所以我相信北檢也會偵辦，如果他要指揮調查局或我們，我們也會去調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。如果……"],["馮署長成：另外一部分就是剛剛委員有提到的，監察院的自律有審議委員會，是針對監察委員。有關這個部分，他們會去評議，如果有不法，也會移到檢方。我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去協助。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛提到他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題，但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分，過往實務上因為這種類型的行為而被起訴、判刑已經有非常多的例子，不能因面對不同人而有不同的面對方式，這就奇怪了！我一直講求的一個點，就是任何行為只要犯罪，大家去查辦，我不會有意見，我只要求程序上要一視同仁，所以之前國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索，從頭到尾我的邏輯非常明確，就是偽造文書、死亡連署、偽造署押去查辦是應該的，並不存在作弊不該抓這種事情。但我一直主張的是，程序上要注意，不該扣的東西不能亂扣，遵循比例原則，這些都是法律基本的概念，不存在我認為偽造文書不該抓。一樣的，面對監委，我也麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候，犯罪就該抓、該處理，但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上是否合法，絕對不能對監察委員有濫行搜索、濫行聲押、濫行扣押或者羅織入罪，這些都不可以，我們要保障國人，包括監察委員、任何一位民進黨員、國民黨員，或任何一個普通老百姓在法律上的權益，都不可以對他們有程序上的不合法，好嗎？"],["馮署長成：好，謝謝委員提醒。我們會注意證據明確、程序嚴謹跟保障人權。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分再麻煩，也不可以違法訊問或者是中斷錄音，又或者是去醫院視察，結果是去醫院訊問，這些都不可以，這些在程序上面都是違法的。我再請教一下副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副審計長。我先簡單說明一個問題，公務車預算的執行也是你們在審計的，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們有去了解一下，監察院過去對於公務車預算執行有什麼狀況嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：個別部會公務車的使用狀況在公務車的管理手冊，還有他們個別訂的相關規定，其實都有一些檢核的作法。這個是例行的，所以一般我們不會做通案性的了解，但是我們受理檢舉違反規定使用的個案，還是會針對個案去處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝副審計長。今天已經有人檢舉這幾件個案了，就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責，該查就查，該查辦就查辦，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們會去了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：依法行政就好，我們沒有別的要求，不需要特別針對誰，也不需要特別袒護誰，依法行政就好，好不好？"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教副審計長，今年立法院有統刪11個項目，就是對於中央政府的統刪。這些項目非常清楚，就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費，還有媒體宣傳等等，我們認為非必要，甚至浮編消費性、浪費的支出，加以刪除。刪除的部分是6%，但整體總預算還是史上最高，甚至比蔡英文執政的時候還多了3%，我想審計長一定很清楚這點。這一次有關地方的一般性補助款，其實是「應撥付」，它是一個法律的義務支出，副審計長應該懂這個道理。但這段時間被很多人拿來亂講，甚至有很多側翼的律師或者網紅，根本搞不清楚法律就亂講一通，包括溯及既往、違反信賴保護原則，他根本忘記去看總預算跟財劃法是哪一天公布的，財劃法的公文文號是在總預算之前，連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講，說這個是溯及既往，連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚。再來有很多人在那邊扯說，這個是中央可以決定的、這個是酌予補助等等。我等一下跟副審計長請教一個問題，因為我看到的狀況是……我來把那個時序講一下好了，這次地方性補助款的時序表是2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款，而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表，它列為法律的義務支出，這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到，這叫法律的義務支出。2024年9月20號行政院函送114年總預算給立法院，包括這筆法律的義務支出都有在裡面，明細也在裡面。2024年底各縣市議會也通過了這個預算的項目，然後啟動2025年的經費，時序是這樣。","114年中央政府總預算的地方一般性補助款全額也在立法院三讀通過，朝野三黨都沒有人去刪，而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效，當天也公布了財劃法，而且財劃法的文號是在總預算之前。我先講這在總預算之前，不要再跟我扯什麼溯及既往這種沒水準的話出來。","再來，2025年4月23號主計總處莫名其妙通知行政院、給他一個建議，說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款。上一次本院牛煦庭委員問行政院秘書長，你們除了刪636億之外，有沒有第二個方案？你說要撙節，我們都予以尊重，但是除了這個方案之外，你有沒有第二種方案？有沒有討論過，從中央政府裡面的錢去撙節，而不要動不動就砍地方政府？結果秘書長答不出來，網路上、YouTube上面都看得到這一段，所以我覺得很莫名其妙，我們的政府只想了一個道理，我剛剛講的非必要性支出、媒體支出、業務費用、電費、國外旅費，這一些是我們希望他撙節的費用，不希望他浮編，結果被砍了以後，他第一個想到的就是先砍地方政府的錢。副審計長，你是來自宜蘭，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你是宜蘭人，我常聽到人家說你常都在談宜蘭，你熱愛那個地方，以身為宜蘭人為榮，我聽到你很多同事講過這些事情。那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億，7月一次要砍掉10億，你知道嗎？你知道這件事嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：知道，了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：你有沒有想過一件事情？宜蘭的人均負債是3.85萬，是全國22縣市第二高，今天主計長來跟我們講什麼？主計長說沒錢請地方政府去借。借的意思是什麼？債留宜蘭子孫。我在這邊說明，債留宜蘭子孫，讓宜蘭人去背這個債，越背越多，這樣對嗎？有一些縣市真的財務狀況很好，像屏東沒有負債，那是他們的縣長真的做得很好，但是宜蘭因為長期可能稅收等等的問題，它就是沒有錢，主計長給我們一句話「去借錢」，這個我不太能接受，因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人，我才特別提到這個部分。","再來，我想請教副審計長，統刪這個制度是今年才有嗎？現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由，發明了一個統刪制度，我想請教一下，我自己公務員幹那麼多年了，請問副審計長，統刪是今年才有的制度嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：從過去的紀錄，統刪通常會指定科目、用途。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以過往有統刪嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：只是它指定科目、用途，但很多時候統刪是讓被刪除機關，我們尊重它，讓它自己去調配一些費用，對不對？副審計長，這個我有沒有講錯？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以今天這個錢，統刪是本來就有的，請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有。我覺得現在這個國家根本已經是一連串謊言，怎麼去教育下一代啊？","再來，我剛剛提到的，我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法的一般性補助款，這個東西以前有沒有被刪過？我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有一個時序表，比如說就114年度，其實在113年大概8月左右，中央就會匡列一個額度，因為……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我只是問副審計長，你只要回答我這個問題，過往基於中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法，一般性補助款有沒有被刪過？好，不然這樣，我來講好了，我查過過往沒有刪過。副審計長，你有什麼意見？"],["李副審計長順保：這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總處的權責。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我的意思是說，您一定也懂嘛！這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過，你有沒有不同意見？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西，今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款，這些錢是用在弱勢、用在小朋友、用在教育上面，結果今天我們竟然去砍這個錢，還好意思去砍這個錢，結果變成什麼？你們餓死算了，錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦！你們地方餓死算了啦！窮人餓死算了啦！我中央還是要大吃大喝，我今天看到的是這樣，這竟然是主計長給的建議。我們是民主國家，中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅，你稅繳給我之後，那你就等著餓肚子，這個不合道理嘛！所以我一直有意見。","今天又有人說財劃法是說「酌予補助」，然後還亂解釋這個條文，說酌予補助是愛給多少給多少，其實不是這樣啊！中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法裡面要去調配，你必須依據該辦法的第四條、第五條、第六條、第十二條及第十三條才有理由去做調配，而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給，只是說各縣市可以考量它的財務狀況去做一些配比上的調配。結果今天我們遇到的是政府從上到下，這些網紅、這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況，拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上用語，拿著這個根本就不對的，酌予補助不是這樣解釋的，宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員出來在那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給，也不能訴訟，因為這個有信賴保護、有溯及既往的問題，我覺得不可思議！所以我是在說這個補助辦法的規定不是說不能夠調配，但它的調配是依據各縣市的一些狀況或預算執行的問題去做一些調配，並不是統一、一律27%都不給，不是這樣子啦！中央政府請依法行政，不能帶頭違法，這個是不對的啦！更何況這些錢真的是給地方上面的弱勢團體使用。","最後我問法務部長，不好意思，因為時間到了。部長跟調查局局長，我上次已經有說了，636億這個金額實在太大，而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體，這可能會涉嫌抑留剋扣，我上次有告發，部長、局長，這部分請問一下，內容我不問，怎麼偵查我不問，請問檢察官有分案處理了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有函請臺高檢署依法參處。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。還有我上次告發的選罷法第一百零四條第一項，我對幾個部長還有副秘書長有提告發，這部分也要麻煩了，因為我是人民嘛！人民有告發就麻煩要依法處理，好不好？偵查的內容，一樣的，我對個案就不能把手伸進去，但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了，你們有沒有分案調查，部長有嗎？上次的第一百零四條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，這個有。"],["吳委員宗憲：也有，好，這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理。我就跟你們講，真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看，並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題，因為財劃法照文號其實是在總預算之前，沒有溯及既往適用的問題。第二個，酌予補助的定義其實要參照的是中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法，不能說隨隨便便亂用。我覺得我很受不了一些網紅在那邊亂講，然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責，還配合中央在那邊胡說八道，亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方，只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航，這個都不對，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：因為王副秘另外還有要務嘛！待會王副秘會先離開。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}