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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 918.992, \"end\": 919.012, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 919.012, \"end\": 919.172, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 919.172, \"end\": 919.292, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 919.292, \"end\": 919.312, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 919.312, \"end\": 919.492, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 919.492, \"end\": 919.552, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 919.552, \"end\": 919.572, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 919.572, \"end\": 919.592, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 919.592, \"end\": 919.612, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,230 --> 00:00:35,480\n主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛有說明我知道你剛有說明我現在就你剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本\n\n2\n00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:58,587\n原本你要安排的是這個有關這個地方對地方政府一般補助而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客客這是刑法獨支罪對你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間\n\n3\n00:00:59,727 --> 00:01:13,025\n就在講這個對地方政府反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面也有講所以應該這個題目這樣我認知你是臨時改的你可能是你們國民黨我跟你講\n\n4\n00:01:14,667 --> 00:01:19,372\n我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣想要在這邊施設刑堂,把人找來在這裡本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人在事實調查出來之前\n\n5\n00:01:33,388 --> 00:01:53,777\n當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就這樣說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制我剛有講你聽不懂\n\n6\n00:01:55,658 --> 00:02:17,667\n我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好啦沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他\n\n7\n00:02:19,868 --> 00:02:39,946\n這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長\n\n8\n00:02:47,571 --> 00:02:59,135\n不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個\n\n9\n00:03:03,939 --> 00:03:24,649\n我們現在這個聯政府組織法裡面我們關於聯政府組長的事項包括貪污預防事項及這個推動執行這個在這個我們法務部聯政府組織法第二條裡面有規定這個發款這都是我們的權責聯政府成立到現在已經10年了10年100年成立所以14年14年這14年來事實上\n\n10\n00:03:30,312 --> 00:03:47,445\n這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升了還是下降了跟委員報告其實我們從100年開始他的那個我們在以\n\n11\n00:03:47,885 --> 00:04:07,978\n比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30、31名然後大概是63分65分左右最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86名\n\n12\n00:04:14,702 --> 00:04:40,945\n一直不斷的媒體都報導一直不斷的有相關的貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步\n\n13\n00:04:41,977 --> 00:05:07,374\n那但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案那是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條他的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個\n\n14\n00:05:12,589 --> 00:05:18,424\n這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎?還是行政指導?它的定位是什麼?\n\n15\n00:05:20,945 --> 00:05:42,878\n他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、找出黑金的一些把它整合起來然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分這部分我有幫你們框出來\n\n16\n00:05:44,039 --> 00:06:11,305\n你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估全面整體性的檢視現況請問我們這些廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼\n\n17\n00:06:12,389 --> 00:06:36,304\n外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整\n\n18\n00:06:38,665 --> 00:06:55,903\n這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦如果說你們公開上面有\n\n19\n00:06:56,784 --> 00:07:17,875\n有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個\n\n20\n00:07:19,736 --> 00:07:43,857\n法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年\n\n21\n00:07:45,762 --> 00:08:10,896\n你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多\n\n22\n00:08:13,218 --> 00:08:35,809\n這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在\n\n23\n00:08:36,869 --> 00:09:01,244\n目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候\n\n24\n00:09:02,665 --> 00:09:19,531\n他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計\n\n25\n00:09:27,654 --> 00:09:52,128\n他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督\n\n26\n00:09:54,284 --> 00:10:11,930\n所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠\n\n27\n00:10:14,201 --> 00:10:31,413\n主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好\n\n28\n00:10:31,913 --> 00:10:58,511\n那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題\n\n29\n00:11:04,015 --> 00:11:19,707\n這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關\n\n30\n00:11:22,414 --> 00:11:28,421\n有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆\n\n31\n00:11:39,164 --> 00:11:54,356\n像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有\n\n32\n00:11:54,636 --> 00:12:12,604\n去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案\n\n33\n00:12:22,208 --> 00:12:40,310\n那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中\n\n34\n00:12:41,651 --> 00:12:57,617\n這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個\n\n35\n00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:27,560\n2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車\n\n36\n00:13:29,605 --> 00:13:35,895\n那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁\n\n37\n00:13:37,028 --> 00:14:02,610\n就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市\n\n38\n00:14:03,646 --> 00:14:16,944\n台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係\n\n39\n00:14:18,683 --> 00:14:41,164\n跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果\n\n40\n00:14:41,764 --> 00:15:02,705\n我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長\n\n41\n00:15:03,717 --> 00:15:19,612\n的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11230\t35480\t主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛有說明我知道你剛有說明我現在就你剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本\n36320\t58587\t原本你要安排的是這個有關這個地方對地方政府一般補助而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客客這是刑法獨支罪對你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間\n59727\t73025\t就在講這個對地方政府反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面也有講所以應該這個題目這樣我認知你是臨時改的你可能是你們國民黨我跟你講\n74667\t79372\t我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣想要在這邊施設刑堂,把人找來在這裡本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人在事實調查出來之前\n93388\t113777\t當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就這樣說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制我剛有講你聽不懂\n115658\t137667\t我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好啦沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他\n139868\t159946\t這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長\n167571\t179135\t不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個\n183939\t204649\t我們現在這個聯政府組織法裡面我們關於聯政府組長的事項包括貪污預防事項及這個推動執行這個在這個我們法務部聯政府組織法第二條裡面有規定這個發款這都是我們的權責聯政府成立到現在已經10年了10年100年成立所以14年14年這14年來事實上\n210312\t227445\t這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升了還是下降了跟委員報告其實我們從100年開始他的那個我們在以\n227885\t247978\t比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30、31名然後大概是63分65分左右最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86名\n254702\t280945\t一直不斷的媒體都報導一直不斷的有相關的貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步\n281977\t307374\t那但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案那是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條他的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個\n312589\t318424\t這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎?還是行政指導?它的定位是什麼?\n320945\t342878\t他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、找出黑金的一些把它整合起來然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分這部分我有幫你們框出來\n344039\t371305\t你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估全面整體性的檢視現況請問我們這些廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼\n372389\t396304\t外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整\n398665\t415903\t這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是 現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開 但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦 如果說你們公開上面有\n416784\t437875\t有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個\n439736\t463857\t法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年\n465762\t490896\t你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多\n493218\t515809\t這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在\n516869\t541244\t目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候\n542665\t559531\t他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計\n567654\t592128\t他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督\n594284\t611930\t所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠\n614201\t631413\t主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好\n631913\t658511\t那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題\n664015\t679707\t這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關\n682414\t688421\t有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆\n699164\t714356\t像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有\n714636\t732604\t去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案\n742208\t760310\t那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中\n761651\t777617\t這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個\n780540\t807560\t2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車\n809605\t815895\t那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁\n817028\t842610\t就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市\n843646\t856944\t台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係\n858683\t881164\t跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果\n881764\t902705\t我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長\n903717\t919612\t的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請\n","txt":"主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛有說明我知道你剛有說明我現在就你剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本\n原本你要安排的是這個有關這個地方對地方政府一般補助而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客客這是刑法獨支罪對你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間\n就在講這個對地方政府反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面也有講所以應該這個題目這樣我認知你是臨時改的你可能是你們國民黨我跟你講\n我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣想要在這邊施設刑堂,把人找來在這裡本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人在事實調查出來之前\n當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就這樣說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制我剛有講你聽不懂\n我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好啦沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他\n這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長\n不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個\n我們現在這個聯政府組織法裡面我們關於聯政府組長的事項包括貪污預防事項及這個推動執行這個在這個我們法務部聯政府組織法第二條裡面有規定這個發款這都是我們的權責聯政府成立到現在已經10年了10年100年成立所以14年14年這14年來事實上\n這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升了還是下降了跟委員報告其實我們從100年開始他的那個我們在以\n比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30、31名然後大概是63分65分左右最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86名\n一直不斷的媒體都報導一直不斷的有相關的貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步\n那但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案那是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條他的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個\n這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎?還是行政指導?它的定位是什麼?\n他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、找出黑金的一些把它整合起來然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分這部分我有幫你們框出來\n你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估全面整體性的檢視現況請問我們這些廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼\n外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整\n這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是 現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開 但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦 如果說你們公開上面有\n有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個\n法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年\n你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多\n這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在\n目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候\n他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計\n他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督\n所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠\n主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好\n那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題\n這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關\n有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆\n像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有\n去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案\n那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中\n這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個\n2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車\n那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁\n就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市\n台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係\n跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果\n我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長\n的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.230 --> 00:35.480\n主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛有說明我知道你剛有說明我現在就你剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本\n\n00:36.320 --> 00:58.587\n原本你要安排的是這個有關這個地方對地方政府一般補助而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客客這是刑法獨支罪對你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間\n\n00:59.727 --> 01:13.025\n就在講這個對地方政府反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面也有講所以應該這個題目這樣我認知你是臨時改的你可能是你們國民黨我跟你講\n\n01:14.667 --> 01:19.372\n我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣想要在這邊施設刑堂,把人找來在這裡本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人在事實調查出來之前\n\n01:33.388 --> 01:53.777\n當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就這樣說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制我剛有講你聽不懂\n\n01:55.658 --> 02:17.667\n我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好啦沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他\n\n02:19.868 --> 02:39.946\n這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長\n\n02:47.571 --> 02:59.135\n不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個\n\n03:03.939 --> 03:24.649\n我們現在這個聯政府組織法裡面我們關於聯政府組長的事項包括貪污預防事項及這個推動執行這個在這個我們法務部聯政府組織法第二條裡面有規定這個發款這都是我們的權責聯政府成立到現在已經10年了10年100年成立所以14年14年這14年來事實上\n\n03:30.312 --> 03:47.445\n這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升了還是下降了跟委員報告其實我們從100年開始他的那個我們在以\n\n03:47.885 --> 04:07.978\n比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30、31名然後大概是63分65分左右最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86名\n\n04:14.702 --> 04:40.945\n一直不斷的媒體都報導一直不斷的有相關的貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步\n\n04:41.977 --> 05:07.374\n那但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案那是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條他的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個\n\n05:12.589 --> 05:18.424\n這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎?還是行政指導?它的定位是什麼?\n\n05:20.945 --> 05:42.878\n他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、找出黑金的一些把它整合起來然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分這部分我有幫你們框出來\n\n05:44.039 --> 06:11.305\n你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估全面整體性的檢視現況請問我們這些廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼\n\n06:12.389 --> 06:36.304\n外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整\n\n06:38.665 --> 06:55.903\n這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦如果說你們公開上面有\n\n06:56.784 --> 07:17.875\n有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個\n\n07:19.736 --> 07:43.857\n法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年\n\n07:45.762 --> 08:10.896\n你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多\n\n08:13.218 --> 08:35.809\n這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在\n\n08:36.869 --> 09:01.244\n目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候\n\n09:02.665 --> 09:19.531\n他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計\n\n09:27.654 --> 09:52.128\n他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督\n\n09:54.284 --> 10:11.930\n所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠\n\n10:14.201 --> 10:31.413\n主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好\n\n10:31.913 --> 10:58.511\n那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題\n\n11:04.015 --> 11:19.707\n這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關\n\n11:22.414 --> 11:28.421\n有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆\n\n11:39.164 --> 11:54.356\n像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有\n\n11:54.636 --> 12:12.604\n去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案\n\n12:22.208 --> 12:40.310\n那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中\n\n12:41.651 --> 12:57.617\n這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個\n\n13:00.540 --> 13:27.560\n2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車\n\n13:29.605 --> 13:35.895\n那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁\n\n13:37.028 --> 14:02.610\n就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市\n\n14:03.646 --> 14:16.944\n台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係\n\n14:18.683 --> 14:41.164\n跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果\n\n14:41.764 --> 15:02.705\n我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長\n\n15:03.717 --> 15:19.612\n的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.23,"end":35.48,"text":"主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛有說明我知道你剛有說明我現在就你剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本"},{"start":36.32,"end":58.587,"text":"原本你要安排的是這個有關這個地方對地方政府一般補助而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客客這是刑法獨支罪對你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間"},{"start":59.727,"end":73.025,"text":"就在講這個對地方政府反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面也有講所以應該這個題目這樣我認知你是臨時改的你可能是你們國民黨我跟你講"},{"start":74.667,"end":79.372,"text":"我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣想要在這邊施設刑堂,把人找來在這裡本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人在事實調查出來之前"},{"start":93.388,"end":113.777,"text":"當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就這樣說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制我剛有講你聽不懂"},{"start":115.658,"end":137.667,"text":"我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好啦沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他"},{"start":139.868,"end":159.946,"text":"這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長"},{"start":167.571,"end":179.135,"text":"不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個"},{"start":183.939,"end":204.649,"text":"我們現在這個聯政府組織法裡面我們關於聯政府組長的事項包括貪污預防事項及這個推動執行這個在這個我們法務部聯政府組織法第二條裡面有規定這個發款這都是我們的權責聯政府成立到現在已經10年了10年100年成立所以14年14年這14年來事實上"},{"start":210.312,"end":227.445,"text":"這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升了還是下降了跟委員報告其實我們從100年開始他的那個我們在以"},{"start":227.885,"end":247.978,"text":"比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30、31名然後大概是63分65分左右最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86名"},{"start":254.702,"end":280.945,"text":"一直不斷的媒體都報導一直不斷的有相關的貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步"},{"start":281.977,"end":307.374,"text":"那但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案那是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條他的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個"},{"start":312.589,"end":318.424,"text":"這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎?還是行政指導?它的定位是什麼?"},{"start":320.945,"end":342.878,"text":"他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、找出黑金的一些把它整合起來然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分這部分我有幫你們框出來"},{"start":344.039,"end":371.305,"text":"你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估全面整體性的檢視現況請問我們這些廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼"},{"start":372.389,"end":396.304,"text":"外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整"},{"start":398.665,"end":415.903,"text":"這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是 現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開 但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦 如果說你們公開上面有"},{"start":416.784,"end":437.875,"text":"有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個"},{"start":439.736,"end":463.857,"text":"法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年"},{"start":465.762,"end":490.896,"text":"你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多"},{"start":493.218,"end":515.809,"text":"這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在"},{"start":516.869,"end":541.244,"text":"目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候"},{"start":542.665,"end":559.531,"text":"他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計"},{"start":567.654,"end":592.128,"text":"他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督"},{"start":594.284,"end":611.93,"text":"所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠"},{"start":614.201,"end":631.413,"text":"主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好"},{"start":631.913,"end":658.511,"text":"那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題"},{"start":664.015,"end":679.707,"text":"這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關"},{"start":682.414,"end":688.421,"text":"有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆"},{"start":699.164,"end":714.356,"text":"像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有"},{"start":714.636,"end":732.604,"text":"去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案"},{"start":742.208,"end":760.31,"text":"那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中"},{"start":761.651,"end":777.617,"text":"這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個"},{"start":780.54,"end":807.56,"text":"2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車"},{"start":809.605,"end":815.895,"text":"那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁"},{"start":817.028,"end":842.61,"text":"就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市"},{"start":843.646,"end":856.944,"text":"台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係"},{"start":858.683,"end":881.164,"text":"跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果"},{"start":881.764,"end":902.705,"text":"我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長"},{"start":903.717,"end":919.612,"text":"的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時15分）主席，我看今天安排這個主題是「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之樣態與防制」，安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急……"],["主席：不是、不是，我剛才有說明……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你剛剛有說明了，我現在就要講，你剛才的說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水，原本你要安排的是有關地方政府的一般補助……"],["主席：對。"],["沈委員發惠：而且你還說因為你們開會，我不曉得召委排案是要開什麼會？應該是你們國民黨……"],["主席：不是、不是，我們國民黨有國民黨的做法，我們是對抑留剋扣，這是刑法瀆職罪章。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你本來要安排這個，而且我看你的質詢裡面，你花了超時一倍的時間在講地方政府，你反而沒有講今天的主題「如何落實清廉政府」，這個部分講得比較少，雖然你前面有講。所以這個題目，在我認知，應該就是你臨時改的，可能是你們國民黨看到相關的新聞……"],["主席：我跟你講，我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣，我這個人說話就是這樣……"],["沈委員發惠：你們見獵欣喜，然後想要在這邊私設刑堂，把人找來這裡，本來可能由政風單位進行事實的調查，但是你們就一定要在事實調查出來之前，把當事人找來這裡私設刑堂，羞辱一番。當然他自己犯錯要付出代價，這個是一件事，但是我剛才聽起來就是這樣，你本來要排一般性補助款，結果後來你也沒有說明理由。為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員瀆職態樣之防制？這個我就不是很清楚。"],["主席：我剛才有講，是你聽不懂，我說抑留剋扣是刑法瀆職罪章，我剛剛問的內容也跟636億有關。好，沒關係，我尊重你的想法。"],["沈委員發惠：我也尊重主席的排案權。"],["主席：OK，謝謝沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：我只是認為這種案件一發生，都還在調查程序中就要把當事人調來這裡，然後設一個刑堂在這裡拷問他，我個人不太苟同這樣，把我們寶貴的委員會的時間拿來做這種政治利益的計算，我個人不太能苟同，不過這是召委的排案權，我這邊不評論。","現在我請廉政署署長。"],["主席：好，麻煩廉政署署長。"],["沈委員發惠：署長，不好意思，我這個人比較守規矩，既然召委立了這種題目，我們就就事論事。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就這個題目討論「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」，我們就針對這個主題討論。","現在廉政署組織法裡面關於廉政署所主掌的事項，包括貪污預防事項及推動執行，這個在法務部廉政署組織法第二條裡面有規定八款，這都是你們的權責。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：廉政署成立到現在已經10年。"],["馮署長成：100年成立，所以是14年。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上我看這14年來，民間感受是另外一回事，純粹就統計數字看起來，我們廉政的國際評比狀況在這14年來是提升還是下降？針對國際的評比。"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，其實從100年開始，我們以比較大的國際清廉印象指數說明，一開始的時候，我們國家的名次大概是61分、37名；隨著時間的推移到30、31名，大概是63分、65分左右；最近我們已經到25名，然後是67分、68分。"],["沈委員發惠：整體來講，我們一直在進步？"],["馮署長成：對，在180個國家跟地區，我們目前是在86以上。"],["沈委員發惠：當然，媒體一直不斷報導，就一直不斷有貪瀆的情事與個案發生，人民就會覺得現在好像跟以前一樣。其實時間拉長來看，不管是國際評比，或過去國民黨執政時貪腐的樣子，到現在大家回頭看，事實上臺灣的廉政整體而言有大幅的進步。我們當然不能因為進步了就很自滿，縱使有進步，我們還是要看目前還有什麼地方需要加強。我特別找出國家廉政建設行動方案，這是依照聯合國反貪腐公約施行法第四條訂定的，請問署長，國家廉政建設行動方案是法規嗎？還是行政指導？其定位為何？"],["馮署長成：這是行政規則，於98年訂定，當時是把端正政風、掃除黑金等整合起來，變成國家廉政建設……"],["沈委員發惠：所以是行政規則，對不對？"],["馮署長成：對，是行政規則。"],["沈委員發惠：該行政規則第四項，有關具體作為的部分列有附表，附表中績效目標部分我幫你們框出來。你們提到，各機關每年就機關整體業務辦理廉政風險評估，並全面整體性檢視現況。請問所謂廉政風險評估有定期公開嗎？"],["馮署長成：沒有定期公開。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有定期公開？"],["馮署長成：對，目前的績效完成率大概都在93%左右。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你們有請他們評估，但評估出來的到底是什麼，外界不得而知。再來，雖然你們有做廉政風險評估，但我們卻看不到具體的改善或強化措施。所以我希望廉政署能考慮定期公開風險評估，或者由你們就相關的風險評估統整，讓國人能夠了解。"],["馮署長成：現在是密件，但之前曾經有一段時間我們有做民意調查，這部分有公開，後來因為有一些委員有不同的看法，這部分我們會再研議。"],["沈委員發惠：如果你們認為公開有窒礙難行之處或有疑慮的話，你們也應該整理整體風險評估，並將整理後的抽象化原則公布出來，讓大家知道有這樣的……"],["馮署長成：謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員發惠：重點是，在今天法務部的書面報告裡，有關廉政風險及本部作為的第二點提到貪瀆態樣的趨勢，這是今天會議主題貪瀆的態樣，所以我特別去看了。你們引用113年度1月到12月偵辦的貪瀆案件統計數字，這個部分……"],["馮署長成：138件、247人次……"],["沈委員發惠：對，我指的就是這個。以你們統計的結果來看，你們說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多，這是第一點，地方行政機關居多；第二點，職等是薦任、委任、約聘僱居多，這是你們反映的貪瀆風險，以基層執行面跟地方實務面的操作風險比較高，這是你們的結論，對不對？"],["馮署長成：以現實的查緝狀況及數據統計來看是這樣子。"],["沈委員發惠：你們統計的是這樣子。所以整體涉案人員還是地方行政機關居多，但我還是從法規面來看。以目前的政風機構人員設置管理條例來說，事實上，我在上一屆曾提案修改政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條，因為在現行制度、現行法規中，政風人員在執行反貪、防貪等肅貪業務時，必須同時接受機關首長及上級政風機構的指揮監督，等於是雙軌！即政風機構必須接受雙軌的指揮監督，包括地方行政首長，包括政風一條鞭的上級政風機構。我認為這樣的設計會有雙重角色的矛盾！也就是說，地方機關……你們在評估報告中說，地方機關的貪腐狀況是最嚴重的，態樣的統計數字結果也是最多的。但地方政風單位除受上級政風單位指導監督外，還要受機關首長的指導監督，如此雙重角色其實很難……既要扮演地方首長的幕僚長，又要維持政風人員的超然獨立，其超然獨立性會受到影響。所以我們那時候就提案一元化，希望受上級政風機關的指揮監督即可，這部分不知道署長的態度為何？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，政風工作確實不好做，因為在機關裡面我們要協助機關，把機關安全跟法遵做好；但同一個時間，法遵、依法行政是不能打折扣的！依照我們給的廉政工作手冊來說，原則上如果機關首長沒有問題，我們要聽機關首長做行政上的各項配合跟調查；若覺得機關首長是有問題的，則有上級機關或廉政署……"],["沈委員發惠：這樣子太主觀了！你把判斷交給他，讓他去認為機關首長有沒有問題？我們是不是在法制上面……我覺得應該研議從法制面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾！後面有很多案子，我想了解到底……我們現在看到的這些報導，基本上都是檢調機關有進行偵查，新聞才會呈現。像花蓮文化局局長涉貪，因為鬧鬼，所以拿公款包紅包給廟婆。這個個案花蓮縣政府政風單位有事前舉報嗎？在司法機關調查之前？有沒有？就這個案子，有沒有？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，我們不太方便說哪一個政風單位移送了什麼，因為這樣接下來在機關上的作為會受到……"],["沈委員發惠：這就是我講的，雙軌制之下的困境……"],["馮署長成：但我還是要跟委員報告，其實現在非常多貪瀆案件都有一個大概的比例，尤其貪瀆案件都是政風移送過來的。"],["沈委員發惠：像花蓮前教育處長採購弊案，還有剛剛召委非常關心的宜蘭林姿妙縣長涉貪案。以林姿妙涉貪案來說，政風單位有沒有事前通報？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，其實這兩案件都是地檢署、廉政署……"],["沈委員發惠：接下來是臺中地政局長涉及不實核銷特別費，這些都是在地方政府，符合我們剛剛看到的，地方政府涉貪最多。我要特別講一下今天的時事，這是大家比較關心的。2020年，也就是五年前，臺中市建設局長陳大田被檢舉濫用公務車，這個案子有沒有立案調查？五年前的案子，他現在好像還是建設局長，現任的建設局長好像就是這一位。他在2000年、五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車！他濫用公務車被檢舉之後，當時的臺中市政府、盧秀燕表示，市政府的政務官24小時待命服勤，所以局處長對公務車的使用，都視實際需要自行決定停放地點，這是盧秀燕的臺中市政府講的。五年了，不曉得署長是不是能夠去了解一下該案當初到底有沒有立案？廉政單位有沒有立案調查？其他的如臺南市、雲林縣或民進黨執政縣市首長，如果涉及公務車濫用的好像都被起訴，甚至被判刑！至於臺中市，因為說24小時待命所以沒有關係？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，剛剛有說明，因為中央或地方，其實每個單位對公務車輛的規定還是有點不太一樣的，所以我們大部分在一般……"],["沈委員發惠：所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係，五年了，到現在還可以再繼續當局長就對了，他也是一樣公務車濫用。"],["馮署長成：我不能……應該是要依法行政，我們一向的態度就是他如果有違法……"],["沈委員發惠：好啦！我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展，事實上我們這些防貪的法規跟執行規範，基本上，我們的法規面已逐漸臻於完備了，但是我們在執行面上面，包括我剛剛所提的，現在地方的廉政單位是雙軌制，必須同時接受地方首長跟上級政風單位的指揮監督，這個部分我個人認為有檢討的必要啦……"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我希望我們廉政單位能夠自己去檢討。"],["馮署長成：我們會，謝謝委員，我們會要求他們一定、務必依照我們的廉政工作手冊，然後在法律這一件事情上若有違法，我們還是會要求他們辦理。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝沈委員。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}