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\"start\": 758.259, \"end\": 758.38, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 758.38, \"end\": 758.4, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:27,147\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長還有我們調查局陳局長陳局長還有我們人事總處啊我們培訓的今天人總也有來嘛人總代表請上來一下部長\n\n2\n00:00:28,758 --> 00:00:53,933\n還是很白問你問的差不多都是一些個案問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉彈劾都是彈劾別人的地方那當然對象是別人那針對於監察院自己那確實是守住這個分寸那也\n\n3\n00:00:54,893 --> 00:01:18,652\n民眾也會這樣的一個要求那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職了在官場裡面就辭掉那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給\n\n4\n00:01:20,868 --> 00:01:44,682\n我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別\n\n5\n00:01:45,482 --> 00:02:07,095\n提供公務機關跟非公務機關來參考做使用所以說各自要怎麼應這毫無薄言給人家頂一些指引啦現在主管機關當然不是你啦但問題是這指引到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的時候都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講呢就是說這個老百姓各自最大的風險\n\n6\n00:02:08,476 --> 00:02:35,136\n以世衛大眾的看法是說齁詐騙集團想哭喔啓了要人家乖集乖宅散最近發生的未必現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢你政府啊掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護不就對了我都一直認為\n\n7\n00:02:38,266 --> 00:03:00,334\n沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資這都不對啊我還記得市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對我是帶頭反對\n\n8\n00:03:02,635 --> 00:03:05,657\n本來就沒有那麼多後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的當然\n\n9\n00:03:14,042 --> 00:03:31,353\n敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊\n\n10\n00:03:33,314 --> 00:03:53,643\n但是呢把大量的資訊老百姓的行蹤各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話這就很糟糕譬如說大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念\n\n11\n00:03:55,023 --> 00:04:04,887\n這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮\n\n12\n00:04:07,964 --> 00:04:14,626\n你看這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的花蓮欸不直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員叫IU去按門鈴問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人\n\n13\n00:04:32,934 --> 00:04:40,097\n這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明\n\n14\n00:04:55,484 --> 00:05:06,936\n自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍\n\n15\n00:05:18,581 --> 00:05:27,348\n你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦非常糟糕那第三個你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門reportreport你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇\n\n16\n00:05:43,812 --> 00:05:51,532\n我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方\n\n17\n00:05:53,294 --> 00:06:01,278\n也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團\n\n18\n00:06:17,921 --> 00:06:28,721\n保護人民政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民這哪通這種不法是更可怕更可怕\n\n19\n00:06:31,238 --> 00:06:52,378\n任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊你法務部\n\n20\n00:06:56,341 --> 00:07:04,764\n你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句大家評判一下說你們沒建議怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總我覺得你們的培訓的失敗\n\n21\n00:07:13,089 --> 00:07:37,381\n失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然\n\n22\n00:07:40,322 --> 00:07:57,526\n竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個\n\n23\n00:08:01,327 --> 00:08:14,755\n一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦我覺得補貼應該就是\n\n24\n00:08:18,869 --> 00:08:32,276\n這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說\n\n25\n00:08:35,758 --> 00:08:40,381\n其實在培訓的過程裡面你也有很多網站現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道要是有這個不可以這個是設法這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於你像譬如說\n\n26\n00:09:00,433 --> 00:09:04,457\n去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法\n\n27\n00:09:21,762 --> 00:09:43,558\n是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500\n\n28\n00:09:53,104 --> 00:10:06,690\n515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦\n\n29\n00:10:20,216 --> 00:10:42,632\n這也不好啦因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說局長那個罷免那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用還是它刻意違法很明顯\n\n30\n00:10:43,854 --> 00:11:06,360\n有公務機關裡面的它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了全部都放棄了那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛人死他會起來人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦現在在質詢失礼喔\n\n31\n00:11:09,315 --> 00:11:19,780\n我最後要講啦就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒你看\n\n32\n00:11:33,766 --> 00:11:44,093\n美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求\n\n33\n00:12:03,846 --> 00:12:32,073\n好不好不然你們做一個或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的要不然你們沒理啦我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說邀請那到底是法律知識不足還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好謝謝\n\n34\n00:12:36,269 --> 00:12:38,400\n我想請問一下吳委員鍾委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10280\t27147\t謝謝主席 有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長還有我們調查局陳局長陳局長還有我們人事總處啊 我們培訓的今天人總也有來嘛人總代表請上來一下 部長\n28758\t53933\t還是很白問你 問的差不多都是一些個案問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉 彈劾都是彈劾別人的地方那當然對象是別人那針對於監察院自己那確實是守住這個分寸那也\n54893\t78652\t民眾也會這樣的一個要求那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職了在官場裡面就辭掉那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給\n80868\t104682\t我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別\n105482\t127095\t提供公務機關跟非公務機關來參考做使用所以說各自要怎麼應這毫無薄言給人家頂一些指引啦現在主管機關當然不是你啦但問題是這指引到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的時候都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講呢就是說這個老百姓各自最大的風險\n128476\t155136\t以世衛大眾的看法是說 齁 詐騙集團 想哭喔 啓了 要人家乖集 乖宅散最近發生的 未必 現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密 政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢 你政府啊 掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護不就對了 我都一直認為\n158266\t180334\t沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資 這都不對啊我還記得 市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對 我是帶頭反對\n182635\t185657\t本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然\n194042\t211353\t敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊\n213314\t233643\t但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念\n235023\t244887\t這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮\n247964\t254626\t你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 不 直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法 這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人\n272934\t280097\t這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明\n295484\t306936\t自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍\n318581\t327348\t你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇\n343812\t351532\t我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方\n353294\t361278\t也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團\n377921\t388721\t保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕 更可怕\n391238\t412378\t任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部\n416341\t424764\t你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句 大家評判一下說你們沒建議 怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總 我覺得你們的培訓的失敗\n433089\t457381\t失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是 我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然\n460322\t477526\t竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個\n481327\t494755\t一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補貼應該就是\n498869\t512276\t這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說 當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說\n515758\t520381\t其實在培訓的過程裡面 你也有很多網站 現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人 我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網 創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道 要是有這個不可以 這個是設法 這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於 你像譬如說\n540433\t544457\t去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法\n561762\t583558\t是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500\n593104\t606690\t515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦\n620216\t642632\t這也不好啦 因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯\n643854\t666360\t有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛 人死他會起來 人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢 失礼喔\n669315\t679780\t我最後要講啦 就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看\n693766\t704093\t美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求\n723846\t752073\t好不好 不然你們做一個 或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們沒理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 邀請那到底是法律知識不足 還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝\n756269\t758400\t我想請問一下吳委員 鍾委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長還有我們調查局陳局長陳局長還有我們人事總處啊 我們培訓的今天人總也有來嘛人總代表請上來一下 部長\n還是很白問你 問的差不多都是一些個案問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉 彈劾都是彈劾別人的地方那當然對象是別人那針對於監察院自己那確實是守住這個分寸那也\n民眾也會這樣的一個要求那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職了在官場裡面就辭掉那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給\n我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別\n提供公務機關跟非公務機關來參考做使用所以說各自要怎麼應這毫無薄言給人家頂一些指引啦現在主管機關當然不是你啦但問題是這指引到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的時候都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講呢就是說這個老百姓各自最大的風險\n以世衛大眾的看法是說 齁 詐騙集團 想哭喔 啓了 要人家乖集 乖宅散最近發生的 未必 現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密 政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢 你政府啊 掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護不就對了 我都一直認為\n沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資 這都不對啊我還記得 市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對 我是帶頭反對\n本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然\n敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊\n但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念\n這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮\n你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 不 直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法 這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人\n這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明\n自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍\n你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇\n我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方\n也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團\n保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕 更可怕\n任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部\n你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句 大家評判一下說你們沒建議 怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總 我覺得你們的培訓的失敗\n失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是 我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然\n竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個\n一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補貼應該就是\n這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說 當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說\n其實在培訓的過程裡面 你也有很多網站 現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人 我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網 創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道 要是有這個不可以 這個是設法 這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於 你像譬如說\n去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法\n是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500\n515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦\n這也不好啦 因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯\n有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛 人死他會起來 人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢 失礼喔\n我最後要講啦 就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看\n美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求\n好不好 不然你們做一個 或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們沒理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 邀請那到底是法律知識不足 還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝\n我想請問一下吳委員 鍾委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.280 --> 00:27.147\n謝謝主席有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長還有我們調查局陳局長陳局長還有我們人事總處啊我們培訓的今天人總也有來嘛人總代表請上來一下部長\n\n00:28.758 --> 00:53.933\n還是很白問你問的差不多都是一些個案問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉彈劾都是彈劾別人的地方那當然對象是別人那針對於監察院自己那確實是守住這個分寸那也\n\n00:54.893 --> 01:18.652\n民眾也會這樣的一個要求那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職了在官場裡面就辭掉那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給\n\n01:20.868 --> 01:44.682\n我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別\n\n01:45.482 --> 02:07.095\n提供公務機關跟非公務機關來參考做使用所以說各自要怎麼應這毫無薄言給人家頂一些指引啦現在主管機關當然不是你啦但問題是這指引到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的時候都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講呢就是說這個老百姓各自最大的風險\n\n02:08.476 --> 02:35.136\n以世衛大眾的看法是說齁詐騙集團想哭喔啓了要人家乖集乖宅散最近發生的未必現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢你政府啊掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護不就對了我都一直認為\n\n02:38.266 --> 03:00.334\n沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資這都不對啊我還記得市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對我是帶頭反對\n\n03:02.635 --> 03:05.657\n本來就沒有那麼多後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的當然\n\n03:14.042 --> 03:31.353\n敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊\n\n03:33.314 --> 03:53.643\n但是呢把大量的資訊老百姓的行蹤各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話這就很糟糕譬如說大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念\n\n03:55.023 --> 04:04.887\n這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮\n\n04:07.964 --> 04:14.626\n你看這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的花蓮欸不直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員叫IU去按門鈴問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人\n\n04:32.934 --> 04:40.097\n這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明\n\n04:55.484 --> 05:06.936\n自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍\n\n05:18.581 --> 05:27.348\n你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦非常糟糕那第三個你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門reportreport你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇\n\n05:43.812 --> 05:51.532\n我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方\n\n05:53.294 --> 06:01.278\n也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團\n\n06:17.921 --> 06:28.721\n保護人民政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民這哪通這種不法是更可怕更可怕\n\n06:31.238 --> 06:52.378\n任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊你法務部\n\n06:56.341 --> 07:04.764\n你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句大家評判一下說你們沒建議怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總我覺得你們的培訓的失敗\n\n07:13.089 --> 07:37.381\n失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然\n\n07:40.322 --> 07:57.526\n竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個\n\n08:01.327 --> 08:14.755\n一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦我覺得補貼應該就是\n\n08:18.869 --> 08:32.276\n這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說\n\n08:35.758 --> 08:40.381\n其實在培訓的過程裡面你也有很多網站現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道要是有這個不可以這個是設法這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於你像譬如說\n\n09:00.433 --> 09:04.457\n去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法\n\n09:21.762 --> 09:43.558\n是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500\n\n09:53.104 --> 10:06.690\n515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦\n\n10:20.216 --> 10:42.632\n這也不好啦因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說局長那個罷免那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用還是它刻意違法很明顯\n\n10:43.854 --> 11:06.360\n有公務機關裡面的它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了全部都放棄了那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛人死他會起來人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦現在在質詢失礼喔\n\n11:09.315 --> 11:19.780\n我最後要講啦就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒你看\n\n11:33.766 --> 11:44.093\n美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求\n\n12:03.846 --> 12:32.073\n好不好不然你們做一個或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的要不然你們沒理啦我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說邀請那到底是法律知識不足還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好謝謝\n\n12:36.269 --> 12:38.400\n我想請問一下吳委員鍾委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.28,"end":27.147,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長還有我們調查局陳局長陳局長還有我們人事總處啊 我們培訓的今天人總也有來嘛人總代表請上來一下 部長"},{"start":28.758,"end":53.933,"text":"還是很白問你 問的差不多都是一些個案問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉 彈劾都是彈劾別人的地方那當然對象是別人那針對於監察院自己那確實是守住這個分寸那也"},{"start":54.893,"end":78.652,"text":"民眾也會這樣的一個要求那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職了在官場裡面就辭掉那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給"},{"start":80.868,"end":104.682,"text":"我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別"},{"start":105.482,"end":127.095,"text":"提供公務機關跟非公務機關來參考做使用所以說各自要怎麼應這毫無薄言給人家頂一些指引啦現在主管機關當然不是你啦但問題是這指引到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的時候都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講呢就是說這個老百姓各自最大的風險"},{"start":128.476,"end":155.136,"text":"以世衛大眾的看法是說 齁 詐騙集團 想哭喔 啓了 要人家乖集 乖宅散最近發生的 未必 現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密 政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢 你政府啊 掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護不就對了 我都一直認為"},{"start":158.266,"end":180.334,"text":"沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資 這都不對啊我還記得 市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對 我是帶頭反對"},{"start":182.635,"end":185.657,"text":"本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然"},{"start":194.042,"end":211.353,"text":"敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊"},{"start":213.314,"end":233.643,"text":"但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念"},{"start":235.023,"end":244.887,"text":"這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮"},{"start":247.964,"end":254.626,"text":"你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 不 直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法 這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人"},{"start":272.934,"end":280.097,"text":"這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明"},{"start":295.484,"end":306.936,"text":"自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍"},{"start":318.581,"end":327.348,"text":"你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇"},{"start":343.812,"end":351.532,"text":"我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方"},{"start":353.294,"end":361.278,"text":"也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團"},{"start":377.921,"end":388.721,"text":"保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕 更可怕"},{"start":391.238,"end":412.378,"text":"任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部"},{"start":416.341,"end":424.764,"text":"你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句 大家評判一下說你們沒建議 怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總 我覺得你們的培訓的失敗"},{"start":433.089,"end":457.381,"text":"失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是 我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然"},{"start":460.322,"end":477.526,"text":"竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個"},{"start":481.327,"end":494.755,"text":"一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補貼應該就是"},{"start":498.869,"end":512.276,"text":"這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說 當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說"},{"start":515.758,"end":520.381,"text":"其實在培訓的過程裡面 你也有很多網站 現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人 我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網 創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道 要是有這個不可以 這個是設法 這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於 你像譬如說"},{"start":540.433,"end":544.457,"text":"去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法"},{"start":561.762,"end":583.558,"text":"是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500"},{"start":593.104,"end":606.69,"text":"515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦"},{"start":620.216,"end":642.632,"text":"這也不好啦 因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯"},{"start":643.854,"end":666.36,"text":"有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛 人死他會起來 人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢 失礼喔"},{"start":669.315,"end":679.78,"text":"我最後要講啦 就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看"},{"start":693.766,"end":704.093,"text":"美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求"},{"start":723.846,"end":752.073,"text":"好不好 不然你們做一個 或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們沒理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 邀請那到底是法律知識不足 還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":756.269,"end":758.4,"text":"我想請問一下吳委員 鍾委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請我們法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有調查局陳局長。"],["主席：陳局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事總處培訓……今天人總也有來嘛。"],["主席：人總的代表有沒有來？"],["莊委員瑞雄：請上來一下。部長，我實在很不想問你，問你的差不多都是一些個案，問你也沒意思。其實剛剛前面幾位委員的質詢，我都表達尊重，確實監察院是一個監察、糾舉、彈劾……都是彈劾別人的地方，當然對象是別人，監察院自己確實是守住這個分寸，民眾也會這樣要求。今天我看到李俊俋秘書長勇於認錯，也辭職了，在官場裡面辭掉了，其實就等於是人頭落地，也是表達最大的態度，至於個案，本院很多委員在這邊指指點點，其實意義也不大，依法該怎麼處理的就怎麼處理。","但是有另外一個問題，涉及比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的，我反而會覺得更可怕，畢竟按照我們整個個資法第五十三條的規定，法務部應會同中央目的事業主管機關訂定特定目的及個人資料類別，提供公務機關及非公務機關參考使用。也就是說個資要怎麼使用，法務部應該要去訂定一些指引，現在主管機關當然不是你們，但問題是這些指引到底要怎麼做？我現在看到幾個機關以後，我看了都提心吊膽，為什麼這樣講？老百姓個資最大的風險，以社會大眾的看法，詐騙集團最可惡，資料拿走之後就來拐我們的錢、拐財產，最近發生的卻未必，現在最大的風險是在政府機關，政府機關會給人家洩密，政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資，本來政府掌握這麼多老百姓的個資，也要好好保護人家才對。","我都一直認為沒有特別重要的目的到要制定法律來授權以外，要蒐取任何老百姓的個資，這都不對。我記得思瑤委員還在那個地方，我當年在當臺北市議員的時候，我們臺北市以前在訂定自治條例，就是設置監視錄影器那個部分，我帶頭反對，本來就沒有那麼多，後來臺北市就設置了一萬多支，新北會更多，看每個首長的看法，就是說你大量的……我們當初敵不過民粹，他也有道理，所以我們就去制定這個自治條例，就是為了治安的問題，提供一些熱區打擊犯罪，甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器，後來我們就把它法制化了，這還講得通，但是把大量的資訊、老百姓的行蹤、這些個資統統掌握在政府手裡，到最後最大的破口是來自於政府的話，這就很糟糕。譬如說，大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的狀況，大家應該看到了，公務機關的法制概念看起來真的是薄弱到是法盲，真的是法盲。","個資保護這樣的破口有多嚴重？其實都應該要去修補，我簡單舉幾個案例，像花蓮，民政處長帶頭違法，本來連署說有沒有疑義的，選委會應該寄詢問單給當事人詢問到底是不是他簽的，而花蓮就不用，夭壽喔！民政處長帶頭違法，這是標準的查水表，就是叫戶政人員挨家挨戶去按門鈴問人家有沒有簽名、是不是本人，這就代表我們公務機關的法制觀念有多薄弱，這種作法當然是嚴重違反個資法法律所謂職務必要的範圍，這個叫做公務人員濫權。","另外第二個，你去看南投，戶政資料，現在戶政機關自己會去發明，自己去自創規則，這很明顯的就是一種政治上的審查，變成你要去罷免立法委員，現在人家說你重複去刪除，中選會就表示現在要補破網，但是戶政系統本來是供查驗姓名、戶籍，根本就沒有法源可以拿出來跟簽名單比對筆跡，所以這個非常糟糕，非常糟糕！","第三個，你看基隆，哪有一個處長親自去開後門？離譜！你把整個戶政系統變成選舉的一個武器庫，你把公權力變成政爭的一個幫兇。我不知道部長看到之後，你會不會覺得很「厭氣」？","其他的，當然我們常常看到，像新北那個地方，也不是特別要點新北，各個地方都會有，只是它比較受矚目，消防人員把報案人的資料賣給殯葬業者，或者你們是調查局，局長，你就知道你們新竹那邊，那些非法查詢系統，你們就把那些個資去賣給討債集團。","政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民，你們到最後變成出賣人民，這哪通？這種不法其實更可怕，任何事件的發生，我們去探究它到底有沒有違法，可以啊！都通啊！所以我說我尊重今天所有在委員會各個委員的質詢，可是如果要談那個不法的程度，這個更可怕，本來負有保護人民的義務，到最後都是在出賣人民。","所以我要請教，部長，整個法務機關，你是部長，你們法務部不是主管機關，但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的指引，這是你們的工作，你們說兩句給大家聽聽看，你們法務部建議怎麼樣會比較好。我等一下還要問人總，我覺得你們人總的培訓失敗，但你當然可以回答我培訓很成功，人性就是惡劣。先讓部長說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。有關於洩漏個資的問題，他查水表相關的案子，地檢署都有在偵辦中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：以法務部的立場，我們沒辦法允許有這種情形，目前都在偵辦中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外就是剛才委員有提到法盲的那個問題，竟然會恣意提供，我想這部分，我們可以再做法律上的宣導。關於這個部分，我會責成廉政署、政風處，在機關的公務機密維護這部分，以及對個資的保護，我們會再加強各級機關嚴守政府資訊、個人秘密以及公務機密的維護，我想我們可以做這樣的努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，部長，我覺得這個指引真的要出來，這個已經不只是濫權的問題，有的濫到他本身不知道違法。我現在發現他們可能不曉得那個叫做違法，我覺得是不是訂一個指引之後去跟他們說？為什麼我請人總上來的原因就是，其實在培訓的過程裡面，像你們也有很多網站現在都在說AI，你們在說那個有很多人，我看都有二十幾萬人上去看，個資的這個部分，你們也應該去上網，做一個比較有趣味的，讓公務人員知道不要這樣做，這個是涉法，這個涉及違法。是不是人總也應該針對這部分？譬如建議整個公務體系，這些牽扯到個資的部分應該加密或者如何升級，築起一個更高的牆保護老百姓。這涉及整個制度的重建了，尤其是你們這些平臺，公務人員違法，這些法律知識這麼貧乏的部分，是不是也該想想辦法？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員好。跟委員說明，其實為了協助提升公務人員對於廉能政府、公共服務跟倫理教育的重視，其實我們在106年起，就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務人員每人應該完成的學習時數。就我們這邊所了解，像到113年的統計資料顯示，我們開課的機關總數已經達到515個課程，各機關辦理的總場次也有3,356場次，參與的人數也高達二十七萬多人，學習的總時數也達到41萬……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那個我給你肯定啊，我現在要跟你說的就是，那個部分有那麼多人看，甚至於譬如涉及個資的基本法律常識，你也要去設計，讓人家覺得這個有趣味，不然大家都要看學英文的，這些都沒人要去看，這也不好啦，畢竟公務人員培訓是你們。"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員的指示，我們會帶回去……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最後要請教局長，罷免當然連署已經結束了，但是違法的就是違法，我剛指出這一些，就是這一些很多涉及的是，到底他是濫用，還是他刻意違法？很明顯，公務機關裡面，有些他也許是法律知識淺薄，但是其實很多涉及到就是標準的違法，你也不能說這樣就算了，全部都放他去了，那也不對啊！"],["陳局長白立：我想這個除了濫用以外，也是違法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然是違法！"],["陳局長白立：其實通通都是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：開什麼玩笑嘛！人死了，名字會簽上去，這就一定有人……","我最後要講，我語重心長啦，部長跟局長也聽一下。其實大法官針對這個部分，釋字第603號跟釋字第608號、憲判111年第13號都強調，整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權，所以我們現在這部法律在司法及法制委員會審查，剩兩條保留，送出去了，但是我在這邊提醒，你看美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒，他也去提醒每一筆瑣碎的個資，把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生，所以政府部門對於人民的個資這個部分，任何政黨執政都不應該讓它變成政治上的籌碼，更不應該變成非法牟利的黑市資源，這個部分，我就要求調查局、法務部，你們要強力打擊不法了啦，這個也不能間斷，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，各機關涉及這樣的法律，你們法務部必須要去提供一些指引，我們也幫他們弄一弄，不然你們搞不定，我跟你們說！有時候你會覺得那個到底是法律知識不足，還是他真的故意要違法？不如我們該做的把它做一做。公務人員應該有法律知識，那個是一個基本嘛，法務部也請負起必要的責任，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思，我想請問一下吳委員、鍾委員，我們要不要先讓他們休息5分鐘，還是你們要接著？因為已經快11點了，我想先讓官員休息5分鐘。好，我們剛剛徵得委員同意，我們就讓官員先休息5分鐘，謝謝各位。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"],["吳委員思瑤：召委今天好慈祥哦！"],["主席：不、不，我一直這樣，今天人不多，你如果要講久一點沒問題。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}