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\"text\": \"可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 571.323, \"end\": 571.463, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 571.463, \"end\": 571.623, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 571.623, \"end\": 571.744, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 571.744, \"end\": 571.904, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 571.904, \"end\": 572.324, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 572.324, \"end\": 572.464, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 572.464, \"end\": 572.644, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 572.644, \"end\": 572.865, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 572.865, \"end\": 573.125, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 573.125, \"end\": 573.405, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 573.405, \"end\": 573.605, 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762.062, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 762.062, \"end\": 762.363, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 762.363, \"end\": 762.483, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 762.483, \"end\": 762.603, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 762.603, \"end\": 762.683, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 762.683, \"end\": 762.823, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"課\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 762.823, \"end\": 762.843, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 764.215, \"end\": 783.59, \"text\": \"可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 764.215, \"end\": 764.335, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 764.335, \"end\": 764.475, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 764.475, \"end\": 764.755, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 764.755, \"end\": 765.336, \"score\": 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00:00:28,991\n好謝謝主席那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說他剛剛問我問題他一直說請問對不對那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述所以我就不\n\n2\n00:00:36,015 --> 00:00:36,515\n我保證不會請問主席\n\n3\n00:00:52,846 --> 00:01:15,224\n我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年\n\n4\n00:01:15,925 --> 00:01:40,956\n女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備\n\n5\n00:01:44,338 --> 00:01:49,761\n足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁\n\n6\n00:02:05,071 --> 00:02:29,273\n那我們呢當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢\n\n7\n00:02:30,655 --> 00:02:44,730\n購買品項啦協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是可是到底足協後續如何去發放\n\n8\n00:02:45,811 --> 00:03:03,421\n然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位對嗎\n\n9\n00:03:04,682 --> 00:03:18,760\n行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手\n\n10\n00:03:20,342 --> 00:03:30,869\n他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自\n\n11\n00:03:36,172 --> 00:03:52,118\n自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯\n\n12\n00:04:03,883 --> 00:04:27,219\n可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個\n\n13\n00:04:27,919 --> 00:04:45,546\n有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手\n\n14\n00:04:47,572 --> 00:05:16,892\n這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做\n\n15\n00:05:17,592 --> 00:05:33,413\n好跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理\n\n16\n00:05:34,754 --> 00:05:48,579\n徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算\n\n17\n00:05:50,100 --> 00:06:11,486\n因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速\n\n18\n00:06:12,986 --> 00:06:33,798\n好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝\n\n19\n00:06:48,998 --> 00:06:49,660\n好謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是\n\n20\n00:06:53,292 --> 00:07:17,971\n專委我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場\n\n21\n00:07:18,812 --> 00:07:39,452\n高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了\n\n22\n00:07:40,697 --> 00:08:02,993\n如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒\n\n23\n00:08:03,493 --> 00:08:30,378\n我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JETGPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎\n\n24\n00:08:32,406 --> 00:08:49,100\n這是真的新聞這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解妳有看到這個新聞沒有這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病\n\n25\n00:08:49,640 --> 00:09:11,573\n然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的\n\n26\n00:09:14,975 --> 00:09:27,261\n意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來\n\n27\n00:09:31,323 --> 00:09:52,964\n可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的對嗎相關的悲劇下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述您很清楚\n\n28\n00:09:55,150 --> 00:10:23,337\n對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好\n\n29\n00:10:23,897 --> 00:10:51,842\n因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理\n\n30\n00:10:53,957 --> 00:11:17,343\n這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中\n\n31\n00:11:19,404 --> 00:11:35,594\n重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦\n\n32\n00:11:36,895 --> 00:11:59,955\n我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有checkGPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。\n\n33\n00:12:00,555 --> 00:12:21,782\n而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性\n\n34\n00:12:29,009 --> 00:12:42,843\n謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了\n\n35\n00:12:44,215 --> 00:13:03,590\n可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎\n\n36\n00:13:06,352 --> 00:13:21,539\n三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞\n\n37\n00:13:23,405 --> 00:13:43,677\n是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長\n\n38\n00:13:44,718 --> 00:13:45,038\n那我們先處理會議時間喔\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13063\t28991\t好 謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不\n36015\t36515\t我保證不會請問主席\n52846\t75224\t我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年\n75925\t100956\t女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備\n104338\t109761\t足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁\n125071\t149273\t那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢\n150655\t164730\t購買品項啦 協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是 可是到底足協後續如何去發放\n165811\t183421\t然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎\n184682\t198760\t行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手\n200342\t210869\t他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自\n216172\t232118\t自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯\n243883\t267219\t可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個\n267919\t285546\t有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手\n287572\t316892\t這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做\n317592\t333413\t好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理\n334754\t348579\t徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算\n350100\t371486\t因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速\n372986\t393798\t好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝\n408998\t409660\t好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是\n413292\t437971\t專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場\n438812\t459452\t高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了\n460697\t482993\t如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒\n483493\t510378\t我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎\n512406\t529100\t這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解 妳有看到這個新聞沒有 這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病\n529640\t551573\t然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的\n554975\t567261\t意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來\n571323\t592964\t可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚\n595150\t623337\t對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好\n623897\t651842\t因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理\n653957\t677343\t這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中\n679404\t695594\t重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦\n696895\t719955\t我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。\n720555\t741782\t而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性\n749009\t762843\t謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了\n764215\t783590\t可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎\n786352\t801539\t三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞\n803405\t823677\t是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長\n824718\t825038\t那我們先處理會議時間喔\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不\n我保證不會請問主席\n我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年\n女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備\n足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁\n那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢\n購買品項啦 協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是 可是到底足協後續如何去發放\n然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎\n行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手\n他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自\n自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯\n可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個\n有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手\n這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做\n好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理\n徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算\n因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速\n好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝\n好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是\n專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場\n高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了\n如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒\n我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎\n這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解 妳有看到這個新聞沒有 這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病\n然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的\n意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來\n可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚\n對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好\n因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理\n這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中\n重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦\n我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。\n而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性\n謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了\n可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎\n三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞\n是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長\n那我們先處理會議時間喔\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.063 --> 00:28.991\n好謝謝主席那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說他剛剛問我問題他一直說請問對不對那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述所以我就不\n\n00:36.015 --> 00:36.515\n我保證不會請問主席\n\n00:52.846 --> 01:15.224\n我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年\n\n01:15.925 --> 01:40.956\n女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備\n\n01:44.338 --> 01:49.761\n足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁\n\n02:05.071 --> 02:29.273\n那我們呢當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢\n\n02:30.655 --> 02:44.730\n購買品項啦協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是可是到底足協後續如何去發放\n\n02:45.811 --> 03:03.421\n然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位對嗎\n\n03:04.682 --> 03:18.760\n行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手\n\n03:20.342 --> 03:30.869\n他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自\n\n03:36.172 --> 03:52.118\n自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯\n\n04:03.883 --> 04:27.219\n可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個\n\n04:27.919 --> 04:45.546\n有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手\n\n04:47.572 --> 05:16.892\n這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做\n\n05:17.592 --> 05:33.413\n好跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理\n\n05:34.754 --> 05:48.579\n徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算\n\n05:50.100 --> 06:11.486\n因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速\n\n06:12.986 --> 06:33.798\n好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝\n\n06:48.998 --> 06:49.660\n好謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是\n\n06:53.292 --> 07:17.971\n專委我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場\n\n07:18.812 --> 07:39.452\n高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了\n\n07:40.697 --> 08:02.993\n如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒\n\n08:03.493 --> 08:30.378\n我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JETGPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎\n\n08:32.406 --> 08:49.100\n這是真的新聞這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解妳有看到這個新聞沒有這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病\n\n08:49.640 --> 09:11.573\n然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的\n\n09:14.975 --> 09:27.261\n意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來\n\n09:31.323 --> 09:52.964\n可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的對嗎相關的悲劇下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述您很清楚\n\n09:55.150 --> 10:23.337\n對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好\n\n10:23.897 --> 10:51.842\n因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理\n\n10:53.957 --> 11:17.343\n這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中\n\n11:19.404 --> 11:35.594\n重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦\n\n11:36.895 --> 11:59.955\n我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有checkGPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。\n\n12:00.555 --> 12:21.782\n而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性\n\n12:29.009 --> 12:42.843\n謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了\n\n12:44.215 --> 13:03.590\n可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎\n\n13:06.352 --> 13:21.539\n三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞\n\n13:23.405 --> 13:43.677\n是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長\n\n13:44.718 --> 13:45.038\n那我們先處理會議時間喔\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.063,"end":28.991,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不"},{"start":36.015,"end":36.515,"text":"我保證不會請問主席"},{"start":52.846,"end":75.224,"text":"我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年"},{"start":75.925,"end":100.956,"text":"女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備"},{"start":104.338,"end":109.761,"text":"足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁"},{"start":125.071,"end":149.273,"text":"那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢"},{"start":150.655,"end":164.73,"text":"購買品項啦 協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是 可是到底足協後續如何去發放"},{"start":165.811,"end":183.421,"text":"然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎"},{"start":184.682,"end":198.76,"text":"行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手"},{"start":200.342,"end":210.869,"text":"他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自"},{"start":216.172,"end":232.118,"text":"自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯"},{"start":243.883,"end":267.219,"text":"可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個"},{"start":267.919,"end":285.546,"text":"有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手"},{"start":287.572,"end":316.892,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做"},{"start":317.592,"end":333.413,"text":"好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理"},{"start":334.754,"end":348.579,"text":"徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算"},{"start":350.1,"end":371.486,"text":"因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速"},{"start":372.986,"end":393.798,"text":"好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝"},{"start":408.998,"end":409.66,"text":"好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是"},{"start":413.292,"end":437.971,"text":"專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場"},{"start":438.812,"end":459.452,"text":"高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了"},{"start":460.697,"end":482.993,"text":"如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒"},{"start":483.493,"end":510.378,"text":"我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":512.406,"end":529.1,"text":"這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解 妳有看到這個新聞沒有 這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病"},{"start":529.64,"end":551.573,"text":"然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的"},{"start":554.975,"end":567.261,"text":"意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來"},{"start":571.323,"end":592.964,"text":"可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚"},{"start":595.15,"end":623.337,"text":"對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好"},{"start":623.897,"end":651.842,"text":"因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理"},{"start":653.957,"end":677.343,"text":"這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中"},{"start":679.404,"end":695.594,"text":"重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦"},{"start":696.895,"end":719.955,"text":"我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。"},{"start":720.555,"end":741.782,"text":"而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性"},{"start":749.009,"end":762.843,"text":"謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了"},{"start":764.215,"end":783.59,"text":"可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎"},{"start":786.352,"end":801.539,"text":"三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞"},{"start":803.405,"end":823.677,"text":"是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長"},{"start":824.718,"end":825.038,"text":"那我們先處理會議時間喔"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時30分）謝謝主席。有請審計部，不過在審計部移動之前，要提醒主席……"],["主席：麻煩副審計長。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，我們在司法及法制委員會的慣例，就是主席都會評價委員，我這是第一次見到這麼……"],["主席：沒有啊，不是這樣，因為他剛剛問我問題嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：他剛剛有說，請你不要回答啦。"],["主席：應該這麼說，他剛問我問題，他一直說「請問」，對不對？我本來想說，我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述，所以我就不回答，如果你們沒有請問我，我就不回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我覺得雙標的事情，我們認真面對。沒關係，不過主席我今天沒有要請問你，我要請問審計部。"],["主席：好，沒有要請問我最好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我保證不會請問主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天是審計部的副審計長，你好。我們來談一下主席今天排的議題，如果從主席排的議題相關延伸來看一下，我今天想要跟您請教的問題，就是關於瀆職罪這個事情，這個事情跟我們辦公室過去一直關心體育界的案例有關係，我快速跟您討論。第一個，今年女足跟足協之間有一些問題，我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞，不過簡單的說，這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概3,000萬的預算，提供給女足做集訓計畫，這3,000萬並不會真的實質落到每個球員手上，中間必須要透過足協，我想您是清楚這個過程。今年就發生了一個爭議，就是相關設備的部分，足協去跟體育署請領了相關經費，例如每個球員要有4雙襪子、4套球衣等等，這是足協跟體育署申請的款項，可是實際上落到球員手上，例如4雙襪子、4套球衣，可能他們都只拿到2雙襪子、2套球衣。這我只是舉例，我們後續往下追蹤，我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情，明明有這麼多的錢，而且他們也做了這個申請，體育署也給了這個補助，為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備？我們就去調了相關資料，國訓中心5月27日回復給我們辦公室，他們的說法是說：足協確實有拿了這些錢，可是購買品項、協會代領裝備聲明書，或是總教練簽署協會內部申請單，這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的，可是足協後續到底如何發放，實際上球員每一個人拿到多少，這中間其實沒有追蹤，也沒有落於相關文件，所以球員才會來跟我們陳情。我會請您上來，你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情，對不對？相關行政法人確實也是審計部的公務稽核單位，對嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：行政法人是我們廣義的審計對象。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我們等一下來看下一張圖，我有幫你圈出來，這是第一個。","第二個，剛剛是一個大的組織案例，這是最近發生的案例，吳東霖選手，他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽，這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助，可是因為協會的關係，這中間可能是申請的問題或是時間點的問題，導致選手這2年來都要自付款項、自墊款項，甚至還要跟親朋好友借錢。我剛剛下面也說了，一直到這件事情選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後，體育署才同意分批核銷，並表示下週就可以撥付，可是這跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣，其實這只是我舉了其中2個案例，想要跟您討論一下，在審計部的角度，你們審計權行使對象的最核心是公務機關沒有錯，可是往外層的這些對象，其實這些是廣義的，對嗎？廣義的審計對象，所以我剛剛提到的行政法人就廣義上來說，我確實可以跟您討論這件事情，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情，如果是你們廣義可以審計的對象，我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上，我的要求非常簡單：第一個，針對近期不斷傳出經費支用與裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心，要拜託審計部進一步進行查察，避免不管是體育署的問題、協會的問題，還是國訓中心的問題，導致最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手，有沒有機會這樣做？這是第一個問題，您等一下再跟我說。","第二個，鑒於體育署對於所監督之行政法人，還有他們補助體育團體的經費，屢次傳出問題，其實這一年多來，我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手，這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估，這是體育署的部分；另外一個是針對我剛剛提到相關協會及國訓中心的部分，我想要拜託一下副審計長，可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做？"],["李副審計長順保：剛才委員垂詢的部分，大概是針對體育署跟各體育專項協會，另外也包括跟特定的行政法人有關，委員垂詢的這兩個部分，我們一定會澈底處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：澈底處理，所以……"],["李副審計長順保：對，另外委員有定一個時間是希望1個月……"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，因為我們到7月底前，審計部所有的主要人力都集中在審核總決算，因為憲法有規定，我們一定要在今年7月底提出總決算審核報告，所以時間上是不是能容許我們延長到3個月，讓我們整個可以做完整的調查跟評估？另一方面，我們也會跟委員辦公室聯繫及討論，並且查看委員辦公室手邊所掌握的資料，讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不過我覺得您剛剛提出一個很重要的討論方向，第一個是時間拉長，第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論，好不好？我們把我們手上從去年到今年累積的很多案例並且所看到的問題，更全面性地跟你們討論，好不好？因為今天時間有限。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就時間改為3個月沒有問題，我們辦公室後續會積極跟審計部約時間開會。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。接下來的下一個議題，我要請人總，審計部請回，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝人總，今天來的是專委？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：專委，我就快速跟您討論，我們看到行政院有喊出要重視AI人才培育，以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用。我認為大方向絕對是好的，可是落到第一線的公務機關，我其實有一點擔心，我相信我的擔心其來有自，您自己怎麼看呢？第一個是針對高階人才的部分，你們要在7月到10月辦理4場「高階人才AI共識營」，而且針對的對象是部會首長、副首長、三級機關首長、三級機關的副首長，還有二級機關的司處長。假設這些人的平均年齡……我沒有年齡歧視，可是我要提的是，我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機，有多少人真的有安裝AI相關工具並且已經在手機裡？如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式，不管是畫圖、不管是做簡報、不管是回答對話，我不知道有多少人會意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合，更何況你現在要進入公務機關裡。","我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好，或者是所謂高階主管也好，要事先提醒，我認為AI應用當然是這個時代的需求，但是落實的相關配套，會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力？因為長官上了課，長官認為這個很棒、這個有需求，於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情。我們來看一個案例，你有看過這個新聞嗎？「年輕公務員靠著ChatGPT、免費照片app，揪出1.5億政府採購案造假」，你有看到這個新聞嗎？這是真的新聞，這不是我用AI做的。"],["江專門委員美芳：沒有，抱歉。"],["陳委員培瑜：你沒有看過。好，這個新聞就是說有一位地方的基層公務員，他真的是用ChatGPT跟很多數位工具，幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病，於是這件事情就上了新聞。在這個畫面中間的這位女性應該是基層的公務員，相關承辦或者是科員，在我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位男性，我猜想可能是相關主管，左邊可能也是相關主管，於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面。它說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳心梅，還有新北市審計處處長，這個新聞圖片是這樣的，意思就是當這位基層的公務員意識到AI工具可以協助他，於是他自己也就進行了操作、進行了學習，確實也幫助了他的工作，而當他向他的長官回報的時候，他長官覺得：哇！這個超棒。它可能就變成一個政府的業績，可是我很怕這件事情，再加上前面你們提到的，希望公務人員都有AI素養、有AI能力的情況下，它會不會最後變成只是為了追求AI的KPI，導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大？我認為是有這可能的，對嗎？相關的悲劇，我們就不再贅述。","您很清楚，對嗎？勞動部的個案，我們就不再贅述。我的意思是，新時代新科技的應用當然重要，我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員，行政減量也好、業務減量也好，不要有這麼龐大的業務壓力，但我真的擔心，所以我只是提出友善的提醒。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前、AI創新政府之前，真的要先幫基層公務人員想好，因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課，包含今天所有在座的部會首長都要去上課，他們上完課之後，難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎？不可能嘛！可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後，他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐？我認為我們預早做出準備，好嗎？不管是相關的配套、相關的政策，或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理，這個合理的界線怎麼劃分？這個合理的想像，大家有沒有共識？不要到最後又落入變成是基層公務人員的辛苦，可以嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前，我們共同往這個方向一起努力，所以我的要求是：第一個，針對AI應用在公務行政，我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中，重點提示應以開放的態度支持基層的創意，拜託不要把AI變成KPI，當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇，好嗎？第二個，AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說，其實不是他們的生命經驗，我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機，有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面，而且是用得心應手，每天都可以用，什麼問題都可以用？我猜大部分人可能只有ChatGPT，可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好、數位時代的年輕幕僚也好，他們手上的工具絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。中高階主管如果因為這相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像，最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層公務人員非常非常可怕。所以我也想要請問人總，我剛剛講了這麼多並且提出了需求，請你回應我有沒有可能，有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見，協助體檢及盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性？"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員的寶貴意見，針對委員的意見，我都會帶回去研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，帶回去研議。1個月內會不會太快？因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課，對不對？你們說7月到10月就要上課了，可是在規劃這個課程之前，如果你們沒有對末端應用有一些想像，你們規劃的課程就會是空中樓閣，它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求。"],["江專門委員美芳：委員的意見，我們都會一併帶回去研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：我這邊說1個月內給我們研議報告，真的可以嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：如果可以的話，可以3個月嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：3個月。主席再給我一些時間，再請教一下，你們7月到10月就要對部長等級的人上課，你們有安排好課程內容了嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：那個應該是去年的部分吧！剛剛委員簡報提到的……"],["陳委員培瑜：今年的，是最近的新聞，是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課。"],["江專門委員美芳：這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員瞭解？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不然我們會後再討論，如果你1個月內要改3個月，我可以接受，但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論？"],["江專門委員美芳：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我真的不希望再發生相關悲劇，而且我也要說，如果到最後現場的悲劇都要部會首長來扛，可能對他們也不是太公平，因為我認為高階主管跟第一線工作人員有認知上的落差，好嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我們先處理會議時間：上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","我現在不是回答誰的詢問，我可能要說明一下，主席本來就不會去評論每個委員的發言。但是如果委員有問題問主席的話，主席會回答。因為剛剛鍾佳濱委員有多次說「請問主席、請問吳宗憲」，所以我剛剛才會做這樣的回答。另外為什麼我剛剛說他胡扯不是第一次，我想說鍾佳濱委員說謊被踢爆好幾次了，所以這個是我論述的依據。再來就是，在109年3月25日，鍾佳濱委員自己曾經到司法及法制委員會參加會議，當次也是進行詢答，監察院秘書長也有來，他當次怎麼不說這個是違憲？我想一切都有資料可查詢，這是立法院第10屆第1會期在109年3月25日當次的會議，鍾佳濱委員也有出席。我們還是一樣，一切依據法律以及事實來說明。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}