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\"end\": 520.7, \"text\": \"因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 514.516, \"end\": 514.676, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 514.676, \"end\": 514.836, \"score\": 0.512}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 514.836, \"end\": 514.916, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 514.916, \"end\": 514.956, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 514.956, \"end\": 515.096, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 515.096, \"end\": 515.516, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"冊\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 515.516, \"end\": 515.716, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 515.716, \"end\": 515.836, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 515.836, \"end\": 516.057, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 516.057, \"end\": 516.197, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 516.197, \"end\": 516.317, \"score\": 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\"我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 763.131, \"end\": 763.511, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 763.511, \"end\": 763.711, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 763.711, \"end\": 764.031, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 764.031, \"end\": 764.271, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 764.271, \"end\": 765.251, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 765.251, \"end\": 765.572, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 765.572, \"end\": 766.112, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"私\", \"start\": 766.112, \"end\": 766.232, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 766.232, \"end\": 766.572, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 786.236, \"end\": 786.416, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 786.416, \"end\": 786.576, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 786.576, \"end\": 786.696, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 786.696, \"end\": 786.896, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 786.896, \"end\": 786.976, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 786.976, \"end\": 787.276, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 787.276, \"end\": 787.917, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 787.917, \"end\": 788.197, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 788.197, \"end\": 788.437, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 788.437, \"end\": 788.457, \"score\": 0.158}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 794.623, \"end\": 809.314, \"text\": \"李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 794.623, \"end\": 794.723, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 794.723, \"end\": 795.243, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 795.243, \"end\": 795.424, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 795.424, \"end\": 795.604, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 795.604, \"end\": 795.704, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 795.704, \"end\": 795.984, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 795.984, \"end\": 796.184, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 796.184, \"end\": 796.384, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 796.384, \"end\": 796.484, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 796.484, \"end\": 797.525, \"score\": 0.797}, 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\"start\": 844.297, \"end\": 844.597, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 844.597, \"end\": 844.817, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 844.817, \"end\": 844.957, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 844.957, \"end\": 845.137, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 845.137, \"end\": 845.157, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 846.823, \"end\": 866.587, \"text\": \"因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 846.823, \"end\": 847.023, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 847.023, \"end\": 847.303, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 847.303, \"end\": 847.423, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 847.423, \"end\": 847.643, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 847.643, 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\"前\", \"start\": 865.226, \"end\": 865.246, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 865.246, \"end\": 865.326, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 865.326, \"end\": 865.426, \"score\": 0.634}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 865.426, \"end\": 865.546, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 865.546, \"end\": 865.766, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 865.766, \"end\": 865.926, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 865.926, \"end\": 866.047, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 866.047, \"end\": 866.067, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 866.067, \"end\": 866.087, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 866.087, \"end\": 866.287, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 866.287, \"end\": 866.567, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 866.567, \"end\": 866.587, \"score\": 0.0}]}, 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1072.828, \"text\": \"這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1046.661, \"end\": 1046.801, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1046.801, \"end\": 1047.941, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1047.941, \"end\": 1048.222, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1048.222, \"end\": 1049.362, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 1049.362, \"end\": 1049.902, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"波\", \"start\": 1049.902, \"end\": 1051.062, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 1051.062, \"end\": 1051.542, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1051.542, \"end\": 1051.682, \"score\": 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\"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1068.167, \"end\": 1068.387, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1068.387, \"end\": 1068.507, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1068.507, \"end\": 1068.787, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1068.787, \"end\": 1069.387, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1069.387, \"end\": 1069.807, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1069.807, \"end\": 1070.047, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1070.047, \"end\": 1070.487, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1070.487, \"end\": 1070.647, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1070.647, \"end\": 1070.747, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 1070.747, \"end\": 1070.947, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 1070.947, \"end\": 1071.067, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1071.067, \"end\": 1071.207, \"score\": 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\"end\": 1078.135, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1078.135, \"end\": 1078.335, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1078.335, \"end\": 1078.355, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1085.731, \"end\": 1090.654, \"text\": \"就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1085.731, \"end\": 1085.851, \"score\": 0.651}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1085.851, \"end\": 1085.871, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1085.871, \"end\": 1085.891, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1085.891, \"end\": 1086.051, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1086.051, \"end\": 1086.071, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1086.071, \"end\": 1086.091, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1086.091, \"end\": 1086.171, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1190.367, \"end\": 1190.508, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1190.508, \"end\": 1191.011, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 1191.011, \"end\": 1191.252, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"欣\", \"start\": 1191.252, \"end\": 1191.534, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"穎\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1191.534, \"end\": 1191.554, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:16,754 --> 00:00:29,242\n首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來\n\n2\n00:00:43,780 --> 00:01:08,440\n不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长\n\n3\n00:01:09,581 --> 00:01:29,000\n聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以\n\n4\n00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:42,907\n獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿\n\n5\n00:01:46,547 --> 00:02:06,927\n不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個\n\n6\n00:02:13,362 --> 00:02:33,992\n對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字\n\n7\n00:02:38,905 --> 00:02:44,459\n粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率\n\n8\n00:02:46,604 --> 00:03:05,531\n有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理\n\n9\n00:03:09,953 --> 00:03:20,062\n課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515\n\n10\n00:03:25,686 --> 00:03:31,188\n好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長\n\n11\n00:03:53,434 --> 00:04:04,880\n我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例\n\n12\n00:04:08,945 --> 00:04:32,641\n好謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充謝謝好那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的\n\n13\n00:04:39,205 --> 00:05:06,421\n拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個\n\n14\n00:05:08,682 --> 00:05:37,325\n這個宣導啊教育訓練等等都應該要加強對而不是都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到\n\n15\n00:05:38,627 --> 00:05:46,266\n3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪\n\n16\n00:05:47,582 --> 00:06:16,482\n其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水\n\n17\n00:06:17,863 --> 00:06:38,198\n政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係\n\n18\n00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:53,053\n人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長\n\n19\n00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:16,274\n好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現\n\n20\n00:07:17,898 --> 00:07:40,473\n廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的\n\n21\n00:07:42,430 --> 00:08:01,148\n數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向\n\n22\n00:08:01,969 --> 00:08:15,084\n背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解\n\n23\n00:08:15,711 --> 00:08:32,894\n好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是\n\n24\n00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:40,700\n因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎\n\n25\n00:08:50,886 --> 00:09:07,937\n對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子\n\n26\n00:09:08,764 --> 00:09:33,329\n事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個\n\n27\n00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:42,218\n這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查\n\n28\n00:09:43,683 --> 00:10:07,294\n好那麼至於秘書長呢因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給\n\n29\n00:10:10,816 --> 00:10:32,945\n給地檢署對不對這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況\n\n30\n00:10:34,266 --> 00:10:57,232\n基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署\n\n31\n00:10:57,692 --> 00:11:12,696\n所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告\n\n32\n00:11:15,041 --> 00:11:33,002\n不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要\n\n33\n00:11:33,322 --> 00:12:02,642\n其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼\n\n34\n00:12:03,542 --> 00:12:21,606\n就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分\n\n35\n00:12:22,026 --> 00:12:32,368\n我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況\n\n36\n00:12:43,131 --> 00:13:08,457\n我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長\n\n37\n00:13:14,623 --> 00:13:29,314\n李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況\n\n38\n00:13:40,444 --> 00:14:05,157\n在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎\n\n39\n00:14:06,823 --> 00:14:26,587\n因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核\n\n40\n00:14:34,608 --> 00:14:59,589\n那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案\n\n41\n00:15:00,490 --> 00:15:11,091\n那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審\n\n42\n00:15:12,455 --> 00:15:32,923\n那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理\n\n43\n00:15:36,830 --> 00:15:53,300\n各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理\n\n44\n00:15:55,515 --> 00:16:01,098\n行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回\n\n45\n00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:36,082\n給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎\n\n46\n00:16:43,736 --> 00:16:44,217\n根據行政會移過來的總預算\n\n47\n00:17:14,318 --> 00:17:25,298\n對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎\n\n48\n00:17:26,661 --> 00:17:52,828\n這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來\n\n49\n00:17:54,093 --> 00:17:58,355\n怎麼討回來我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告可以嗎\n\n50\n00:18:05,731 --> 00:18:10,654\n就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的\n\n51\n00:18:35,267 --> 00:18:53,478\n預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考\n\n52\n00:19:03,423 --> 00:19:18,870\n但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考\n\n53\n00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:47,231\n好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是\n\n54\n00:19:48,034 --> 00:19:51,554\n好謝謝委員謝謝召委謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16754\t29242\t首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來\n43780\t68440\t不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长\n69581\t89000\t聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以\n89940\t102907\t獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿\n106547\t126927\t不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個\n133362\t153992\t對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字\n158905\t164459\t粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率\n166604\t185531\t有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理\n189953\t200062\t課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515\n205686\t211188\t好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長\n233434\t244880\t我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例\n248945\t272641\t好 謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的\n279205\t306421\t拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個\n308682\t337325\t這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是 都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到\n338627\t346266\t3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪\n347582\t376482\t其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水\n377863\t398198\t政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係\n399879\t413053\t人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長\n420080\t436274\t好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現\n437898\t460473\t廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的\n462430\t481148\t數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向\n481969\t495084\t背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解\n495711\t512894\t好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是\n514516\t520700\t因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎\n530886\t547937\t對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子\n548764\t573329\t事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個\n574530\t582218\t這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查\n583683\t607294\t好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是 你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給\n610816\t632945\t給地檢署對不對 這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況\n634266\t657232\t基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署\n657692\t672696\t所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告\n675041\t693002\t不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要\n693322\t722642\t其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼\n723542\t741606\t就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分\n742026\t752368\t我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況\n763131\t788457\t我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長\n794623\t809314\t李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況\n820444\t845157\t在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎\n846823\t866587\t因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核\n874608\t899589\t那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案\n900490\t911091\t那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審\n912455\t932923\t那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理\n936830\t953300\t各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理\n955515\t961098\t行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回\n982050\t996082\t給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎\n1003736\t1004217\t根據行政會移過來的總預算\n1034318\t1045298\t對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎\n1046661\t1072828\t這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來\n1074093\t1078355\t怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎\n1085731\t1090654\t就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的\n1115267\t1133478\t預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考\n1143423\t1158870\t但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考\n1159770\t1187231\t好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是\n1188034\t1191554\t好 謝謝委員 謝謝召委 謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員\n","txt":"首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來\n不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长\n聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以\n獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿\n不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個\n對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字\n粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率\n有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理\n課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515\n好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長\n我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例\n好 謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的\n拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個\n這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是 都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到\n3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪\n其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水\n政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係\n人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長\n好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現\n廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的\n數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向\n背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解\n好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是\n因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎\n對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子\n事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個\n這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查\n好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是 你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給\n給地檢署對不對 這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況\n基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署\n所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告\n不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要\n其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼\n就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分\n我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況\n我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長\n李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況\n在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎\n因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核\n那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案\n那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審\n那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理\n各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理\n行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回\n給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎\n根據行政會移過來的總預算\n對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎\n這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來\n怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎\n就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的\n預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考\n但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考\n好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是\n好 謝謝委員 謝謝召委 謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.754 --> 00:29.242\n首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來\n\n00:43.780 --> 01:08.440\n不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长\n\n01:09.581 --> 01:29.000\n聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以\n\n01:29.940 --> 01:42.907\n獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿\n\n01:46.547 --> 02:06.927\n不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個\n\n02:13.362 --> 02:33.992\n對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字\n\n02:38.905 --> 02:44.459\n粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率\n\n02:46.604 --> 03:05.531\n有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理\n\n03:09.953 --> 03:20.062\n課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515\n\n03:25.686 --> 03:31.188\n好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長\n\n03:53.434 --> 04:04.880\n我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例\n\n04:08.945 --> 04:32.641\n好謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充謝謝好那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的\n\n04:39.205 --> 05:06.421\n拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個\n\n05:08.682 --> 05:37.325\n這個宣導啊教育訓練等等都應該要加強對而不是都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到\n\n05:38.627 --> 05:46.266\n3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪\n\n05:47.582 --> 06:16.482\n其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水\n\n06:17.863 --> 06:38.198\n政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係\n\n06:39.879 --> 06:53.053\n人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長\n\n07:00.080 --> 07:16.274\n好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現\n\n07:17.898 --> 07:40.473\n廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的\n\n07:42.430 --> 08:01.148\n數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向\n\n08:01.969 --> 08:15.084\n背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解\n\n08:15.711 --> 08:32.894\n好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是\n\n08:34.516 --> 08:40.700\n因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎\n\n08:50.886 --> 09:07.937\n對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子\n\n09:08.764 --> 09:33.329\n事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個\n\n09:34.530 --> 09:42.218\n這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查\n\n09:43.683 --> 10:07.294\n好那麼至於秘書長呢因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給\n\n10:10.816 --> 10:32.945\n給地檢署對不對這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況\n\n10:34.266 --> 10:57.232\n基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署\n\n10:57.692 --> 11:12.696\n所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告\n\n11:15.041 --> 11:33.002\n不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要\n\n11:33.322 --> 12:02.642\n其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼\n\n12:03.542 --> 12:21.606\n就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分\n\n12:22.026 --> 12:32.368\n我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況\n\n12:43.131 --> 13:08.457\n我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長\n\n13:14.623 --> 13:29.314\n李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況\n\n13:40.444 --> 14:05.157\n在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎\n\n14:06.823 --> 14:26.587\n因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核\n\n14:34.608 --> 14:59.589\n那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案\n\n15:00.490 --> 15:11.091\n那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審\n\n15:12.455 --> 15:32.923\n那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理\n\n15:36.830 --> 15:53.300\n各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理\n\n15:55.515 --> 16:01.098\n行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回\n\n16:22.050 --> 16:36.082\n給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎\n\n16:43.736 --> 16:44.217\n根據行政會移過來的總預算\n\n17:14.318 --> 17:25.298\n對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎\n\n17:26.661 --> 17:52.828\n這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來\n\n17:54.093 --> 17:58.355\n怎麼討回來我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告可以嗎\n\n18:05.731 --> 18:10.654\n就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的\n\n18:35.267 --> 18:53.478\n預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考\n\n19:03.423 --> 19:18.870\n但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考\n\n19:19.770 --> 19:47.231\n好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是\n\n19:48.034 --> 19:51.554\n好謝謝委員謝謝召委謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.754,"end":29.242,"text":"首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來"},{"start":43.78,"end":68.44,"text":"不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长"},{"start":69.581,"end":89,"text":"聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以"},{"start":89.94,"end":102.907,"text":"獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿"},{"start":106.547,"end":126.927,"text":"不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個"},{"start":133.362,"end":153.992,"text":"對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字"},{"start":158.905,"end":164.459,"text":"粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率"},{"start":166.604,"end":185.531,"text":"有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理"},{"start":189.953,"end":200.062,"text":"課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515"},{"start":205.686,"end":211.188,"text":"好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長"},{"start":233.434,"end":244.88,"text":"我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例"},{"start":248.945,"end":272.641,"text":"好 謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的"},{"start":279.205,"end":306.421,"text":"拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個"},{"start":308.682,"end":337.325,"text":"這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是 都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到"},{"start":338.627,"end":346.266,"text":"3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪"},{"start":347.582,"end":376.482,"text":"其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水"},{"start":377.863,"end":398.198,"text":"政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係"},{"start":399.879,"end":413.053,"text":"人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長"},{"start":420.08,"end":436.274,"text":"好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現"},{"start":437.898,"end":460.473,"text":"廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的"},{"start":462.43,"end":481.148,"text":"數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向"},{"start":481.969,"end":495.084,"text":"背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解"},{"start":495.711,"end":512.894,"text":"好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是"},{"start":514.516,"end":520.7,"text":"因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎"},{"start":530.886,"end":547.937,"text":"對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子"},{"start":548.764,"end":573.329,"text":"事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個"},{"start":574.53,"end":582.218,"text":"這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查"},{"start":583.683,"end":607.294,"text":"好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是 你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給"},{"start":610.816,"end":632.945,"text":"給地檢署對不對 這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況"},{"start":634.266,"end":657.232,"text":"基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署"},{"start":657.692,"end":672.696,"text":"所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告"},{"start":675.041,"end":693.002,"text":"不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要"},{"start":693.322,"end":722.642,"text":"其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼"},{"start":723.542,"end":741.606,"text":"就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分"},{"start":742.026,"end":752.368,"text":"我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況"},{"start":763.131,"end":788.457,"text":"我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長"},{"start":794.623,"end":809.314,"text":"李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況"},{"start":820.444,"end":845.157,"text":"在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎"},{"start":846.823,"end":866.587,"text":"因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核"},{"start":874.608,"end":899.589,"text":"那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案"},{"start":900.49,"end":911.091,"text":"那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審"},{"start":912.455,"end":932.923,"text":"那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理"},{"start":936.83,"end":953.3,"text":"各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理"},{"start":955.515,"end":961.098,"text":"行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回"},{"start":982.05,"end":996.082,"text":"給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎"},{"start":1003.736,"end":1004.217,"text":"根據行政會移過來的總預算"},{"start":1034.318,"end":1045.298,"text":"對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎"},{"start":1046.661,"end":1072.828,"text":"這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來"},{"start":1074.093,"end":1078.355,"text":"怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎"},{"start":1085.731,"end":1090.654,"text":"就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的"},{"start":1115.267,"end":1133.478,"text":"預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考"},{"start":1143.423,"end":1158.87,"text":"但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考"},{"start":1159.77,"end":1187.231,"text":"好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是"},{"start":1188.034,"end":1191.554,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝召委 謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":936,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時1分）首先有請人總的江專委，還有馮署長，我待會再請馮署長，我先請教江專委。"],["主席：好，麻煩專委。"],["江專門委員美芳：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：專委好。我想請教一下，今天人事長怎麼沒有來？不知道？"],["江專門委員美芳：人事長應該另有……"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長沒有來，然後副人事長也沒來？"],["江專門委員美芳：因為我們今天副人事長剛好是人事交接，新的……"],["翁委員曉玲：副人事長交接？"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，總之我希望以後司法及法制委員會議至少還是有副首長以上的層級出席，這樣的話，我們在質詢的時候，首長跟副首長直接聽到了，他回去就可以交辦。"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：當然今天專委來，我這裡還是要跟你們先講幾件事情，首先其實本席要強調，我每一次都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告，因為我覺得從閱讀這些專案報告可以獲得很多的資訊，同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題，但是本席今天對人總所提出的報告非常、非常不滿，不知道專委有看到你們今天的報告嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：是專委你寫的嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：是經過人事長核定的嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：我們有簽准。"],["翁委員曉玲：1頁，就這1頁，我幫你算了字，裡面212個字，扣除對本委員會所講的，說今天要報告什麼內容等等，你們真正跟今天主題有關的就只有一句話，是哪一句話呢？「有關廉政的落實及瀆職之防制，本總處尊重法制主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理」，總共就這38個字。本席在這裡要批評，人總不能這麼草率，有關於防貪、肅貪的宣導，還有相關的教育訓練，難道人總不該做嗎？你們過去都沒有做嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，跟委員補充說明一下。其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候，我們人總有就……因為我們已經在……我之前有說明過，我們從106年起，就將公務員的廉政與服務倫理課程納入公務員每年應該完成的學習時數。之前莊委員有質詢到這一塊，我有說明我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515個。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，那就謝謝專委。這個可以知道其實人總是有做事，並不是沒有做事，你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率？你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課，或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容，也可以整理出來。"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員的寶貴意見……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我認為你們這樣的作法，基本上就是敷衍了事，藐視我們司法及法制委員會。麻煩請你回去轉告人事長。"],["江專門委員美芳：是，謝謝委員的寶貴意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的，我也要求你們一個禮拜之內，重新提報一份完整的專案報告，是不是可以麻煩召委同意？"],["主席：好，那麻煩依照辦理。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝。我們會把所辦理有關廉政與服務倫理相關訓練的辦理情形，納入書面報告再補充，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩一個禮拜之內交妥。我在這邊其實很感慨的是人總在這段時間裡面，配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情，辦得可真快，辦得可真勤快，應該這麼說，很勤快，一波接一波的，清查公教人員有沒有大陸的證件。但是這樣子的清查方式，到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助？實際上對於清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助？我這裡是大打問號。不過既然你們做了也就做了，但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人總該做的，不要捨本逐末，對於像是防貪、肅貪的宣導、教育訓練等等，都應該要加強，而不是都配合陸委會盡搞一些意識形態的事情，也請你回去要轉告人事長。"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來再問一下，關於今年公務人員3%的調薪，行政院說5月就可以發放，可是最近看到新聞報導，還有在網路社群平臺上面，還是有一些公務員反映沒有收到3%的調薪。請問人總有沒有去瞭解，是不是現在每個單位實際上都已經有發放加薪的薪資？"],["江專門委員美芳：其實人總就調薪的部分都已經撥了，至於其他機關的部分，因為不是我主管業務處的業務，這部分我會回去瞭解，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個再麻煩你們，也是一個禮拜之內，把目前整個核發的狀況，到底哪些機關還沒有完成？也請你提供一份資料給本席。不要忘記這是涉及公務人員的薪水，政府沒有按時發，這就是抑留剋扣了，這個可能都觸犯刑法第一百二十九條的罪。我上次就已經講了，公務員很倒楣，軍公教人員很倒楣，因為我們的雇主是政府，所以薪水慢發、遲發加薪，該發的不發好像都沒有關係。人總這方面要盯緊一點，不要慢吞吞的，希望專委回去可以報告人事長，這些事情都要積極地處理。好，謝謝專委。"],["江專門委員美芳：好的。謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我想請署長。","好，在這裡請教署長，我們知道最近發生了監察院濫用公務車的諸多事件，引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有界限的諸多討論。本席發現廉政署事實上之前曾經做過廉政指引手冊，在廉政指引手冊裡面，列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例。我請教廉政署，據你們統計，到底近年來有多少不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的？"],["馮署長成：數字的部分，可能我會後再跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為我今天看到廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面。好，那麻煩請你們要提供給我們，大概有幾百件嗎？還是沒有那麼多？"],["馮署長成：沒有去統計，因為廉政署針對自己的部分，在公務車這一塊是屬於比較偏向背信罪跟侵占罪，我們負責的是貪污治罪條例的工作，可能有一些公務車適用的部分會是別的機關在辦的，所以沒有這個數據，我們會後會去瞭解。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明，包含可能涉及公務員登載不實還有背信，甚至可能是涉及詐欺等等，你們自己的案例上面都有。我建議廉政署在這方面要多去宣導，好不好？因為你們自己的手冊都有，但是看起來可能很多公務員或是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況，所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做，對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎？"],["馮署長成：好，是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我們也曉得，現在監察院既然發生這個事情，請問廉政署有瞭解監察院的政風室有沒有啟動調查這些案子嗎？"],["馮署長成：事件發生以後，我們有跟監察院的政風室去聯繫，廉政已經有要求政風主任也要跟他們……因為他們目前等於算是自律規範後有啟動一個紀律委員會，針對這幾位委員的事件，他們已經有開始調查，如果有任何的行政不法都會去處理，我們也有要求政風在這件事情上，務必要配合檢方跟紀律委員會協助調查。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，至於秘書長呢？因為秘書長的問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面，那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理？"],["馮署長成：在秘書長的部分，他的案件也是在北檢，至於相關上面來講，我們會看北檢的偵查狀況，有需要政風提供資料都會全力配合。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是政風也應該要積極主動去處理嗎？然後提供一些相關的事證給地檢署，對不對？這怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客，然後法務部才是……"],["馮署長成：是，我知道委員的意思。不會，我們一開始也有要求政風去做相關的瞭解，只要有任何的部分，我們也會提供給檢方處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼時候可以提出你們政風室的報告？針對監察院秘書長和監察委員涉嫌公器私用，濫用公務車的情況。"],["馮署長成：基本上，監察院行政報告的行政調查之發起權，是由機關首長來做，我們只能指導，我們有請他們在政風這一塊如果有不法……跟委員報告，其實廉政署的政風如果察覺有不法，它分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件，關於貪瀆案件會移給廉政署，一般不法就直接移給地檢署。所以在這個部分上，北檢已經在偵辦，他只要有什麼資料，提供給北檢處理就可以了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你剛剛的意思是說，必須由監察院的副院長主動同意把政風的報告……"],["馮署長成：不論他們機關有沒有在做行政調查，但是我覺得政風的部分在法遵這一塊就是要做好，只要有……"],["翁委員曉玲：就是不管副院長……因為現在監察院的院長請假，所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上有這個義務去啟動調查，政風也要從旁協助。"],["馮署長成：其實副院長已經有在紀律委員會中做這件事情，我相信監察院內部會有一個作為。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我要講的就是紀律委員會，依照監察委員的自律規範，有一定的程序要送紀律委員會，接下來如果查到有相關違法情事的話，就依法彈劾，或者是要依法送審辦。我只是想說在這個事情裡面，你們監察院政風室的角色是什麼？"],["馮署長成：政風室一樣也會依照我們頒的廉政工作手冊，在法遵的這一塊上去注意。如果有任何違法的部分，一樣是照我剛剛講的，移給檢方或移給廉政署處理，所以委員放心，我們在這個部分已經有叮嚀政風的部分去處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我現在只是想要了解，你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給立法院，或者以後也可以再做個專案報告，專門針對這種公務車濫用的情況？你們廉政署可以整個通盤提出一個有關於近五年機關濫用公務車的狀況。"],["馮署長成：我們會再去盤點，然後針對公車私用這一部分的防貪指引，我們會再做新的研議，也會提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩你們，有關於盤點的部分，請你們大概一個月之內提供給我們。"],["馮署長成：我們儘速，好嗎？因為我不曉得量有多少，所以我們保證儘速跟委員說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝署長。","最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：李副審計長，您好。我在這裡很快就兩個問題請教，第一個就是監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的油費是他們自己出的，請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎？還是說他們只是先代墊，之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢？"],["李副審計長順保：因為審計是事後審計，當然我們監察院有這樣的說明，我們也會去了解最後實際核銷的情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：在過去曾經有監察委員自掏腰包代墊油錢的嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：就我所了解，114年度比較特殊，過去應該不用這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望這個部分之後審計單位要了解。還有請問在預算執行當中，你們審計單位不會去了解他們的核銷狀況？"],["李副審計長順保：因為我們都是事後審計，監察院跟各機關都一樣，每個月、四個月的15號以前，一定要把會計報告跟核銷相關資訊檔案傳過來，它跟各機關都是一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以每四個月就要送……"],["李副審計長順保：每個月，比如1月份的會計報告跟財務報告，必須在2月15號前送到審計部來，我們都會加以審核。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以代表審計部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告，因為現在都已經5月啦，至少3、4月的是一定有。"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：那這個部分，可能要去了解一下，因為據他們的說法，這都是他們自己掏腰包出的油錢，實際上的狀況是怎麼樣，可能還要再了解。","另外我還要再請教另外一個問題，行政院已經聲請了114年總預算案釋憲，大法官審查的結果如何，我們還不知道，但是有一種狀況是，萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院，立法院要重審，勢必會有一些預算的額度可能會不一樣。那審計部有沒有想到，如果退回立法院重審後，法定預算的金額有所變更，已經支出的經費，審計部要怎麼處理？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算，各機關會每個月分配預算，根據那個數額處理。假設有很特殊的情況，我想行政院會做權宜的處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：行政院會做權宜的處理？"],["李副審計長順保：因為我們都是根據通過的法定預算實際審核，機關每個月一定有分配預算。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我現在的講法就是，當然我們的預算已經通過，是法定預算，但是因為行政院已經聲請釋憲了，所以在某種概念上，法定預算可能還屬於一個不確定的狀態，萬一預算退回給立法院重審，不管是全部或是部分重審，勢必可能會造成法定預算的項目有所變更，而且可能釋憲期間都已經過了114年。審計部就這部分有思考過相關的法律問題要怎麼解決嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，我們就是根據行政院移過來的總預算，大院通過的法定預算數額是多少，我們就照這樣處理。剛剛委員提醒的那些不確定狀況，其實我們也不清楚什麼時候會有一個確定的時間，但是政府是每天都在運作的，一打開就要做，政府簽的契約、工程的推動、一些法律義務的支出，每天都要處理，所以可能還是要照原來通過的預算執行。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以之後有變更，萬一預算重審之後錢變少了，但是前一波預算編的經費是多的，那多花了之後，這個錢要追回來嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：預算的調整、調撥，這個權限應該在行政院啦，我們只是根據大院通過的法定預算，監督預算的執行情形。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以簡單來說，如果行政機關現在把錢全部都花了，萬一之後再一次審查法定預算，數額是減少的，花出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來，我覺得是一個問題，我也希望審計部是不是可以幫大家研擬一份報告？因為這是很實際的問題，是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內，提供給我們一份這樣的報告？因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情。我要講總預算聲請釋憲案是過去從來沒有發生過的事情，但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的柯建銘、民進黨黨團聲請釋憲，以致讓整個總預算案處在效力未定的狀態。之後如果有任何預算變動的狀況，多編了當然就沒有問題，但是如果之後刪的比原來的還要多的時候，已經花出去的錢要怎樣收回？這部分審計部是不是可以給我一份報告？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個部分其實跟審計的職掌比較沒有關係啦，但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料，就是我們初步研究的，提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：但是這個資料不代表我們，因為主要行政院要掌控整個總預算的籌編、執行、控制，那是它的職責，我們只是在後面監督，但是那些分析資料，我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，那就拜託李副審計長，我現在大概已經不相信行政院了，我寧可比較相信審計部提的分析報告。"],["李副審計長順保：時間上委員是不是容許給我們兩個禮拜？"],["翁委員曉玲：可以，沒有問題，那就兩個禮拜，麻煩召委同意李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告。"],["主席：再麻煩審計部處理，反正權責相符，你們有多少資料就提供多少。"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}