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\"start\": 808.396, \"end\": 808.757, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"氛\", \"start\": 808.757, \"end\": 809.017, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"圍\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 809.017, \"end\": 809.437, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 809.437, \"end\": 809.837, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 809.837, \"end\": 810.637, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 810.637, \"end\": 810.997, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 810.997, \"end\": 811.197, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 811.197, \"end\": 811.298, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 811.298, \"end\": 811.558, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 811.558, \"end\": 811.658, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 811.658, \"end\": 811.958, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 811.958, \"end\": 812.118, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 812.118, \"end\": 812.238, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 812.238, \"end\": 812.558, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 812.558, \"end\": 813.038, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 813.038, \"end\": 813.058, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 813.058, \"end\": 813.078, \"score\": 0.307}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,660 --> 00:00:21,551\n謝謝主席因為我們時間比較短本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長還有廉政署署長權敘部的司長\n\n2\n00:00:31,090 --> 00:00:39,061\n以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台謝謝好謝謝\n\n3\n00:00:45,234 --> 00:01:02,181\n首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職\n\n4\n00:01:05,648 --> 00:01:25,922\n本席手上看到大家的報告很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語中間大概就是直接把整個的\n\n5\n00:01:27,063 --> 00:01:44,851\n今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責\n\n6\n00:01:45,791 --> 00:02:12,669\n不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效\n\n7\n00:02:14,310 --> 00:02:32,257\n我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元\n\n8\n00:02:34,718 --> 00:02:47,328\n那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說\n\n9\n00:02:49,877 --> 00:03:13,854\n這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊\n\n10\n00:03:19,028 --> 00:03:46,312\n如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也你的制度制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你廉政署是不是好簡單說因為我時間有限\n\n11\n00:03:54,106 --> 00:04:16,779\n做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略\n\n12\n00:04:17,299 --> 00:04:41,664\n那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種\n\n13\n00:04:46,505 --> 00:05:04,872\n你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分\n\n14\n00:05:13,895 --> 00:05:39,849\n去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那\n\n15\n00:05:41,150 --> 00:06:02,165\n所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究\n\n16\n00:06:03,066 --> 00:06:23,751\n今天哪些單位有今天站在這裡我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做\n\n17\n00:06:26,732 --> 00:06:49,069\n有嗎只有法務部其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問包含司法院包含法務部廉政署包含權序部我們在制度設計上我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業\n\n18\n00:06:50,430 --> 00:07:01,204\n人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來\n\n19\n00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:20,617\n獨立的跟委員報告素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦你就我的問題回答有沒有我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會\n\n20\n00:07:22,379 --> 00:07:34,622\n那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案\n\n21\n00:07:35,171 --> 00:07:52,182\n你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查\n\n22\n00:07:55,667 --> 00:08:15,189\n最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有\n\n23\n00:08:17,072 --> 00:08:27,409\n這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎\n\n24\n00:08:27,984 --> 00:08:45,729\n以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎\n\n25\n00:08:57,113 --> 00:09:19,725\n我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養\n\n26\n00:09:21,074 --> 00:09:40,356\n所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的\n\n27\n00:09:41,116 --> 00:10:00,743\n最後我要請教因為整個單位的風氣包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野風行朝野上行下效我想請教最後我請法務部長好了風行朝野上行下效我想請教您\n\n28\n00:10:04,464 --> 00:10:13,428\n您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門\n\n29\n00:10:14,469 --> 00:10:33,325\n就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種\n\n30\n00:10:37,055 --> 00:10:44,147\n這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看\n\n31\n00:10:45,950 --> 00:11:15,590\n我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊\n\n32\n00:11:18,442 --> 00:11:33,830\n這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個\n\n33\n00:11:35,271 --> 00:11:57,209\n辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要\n\n34\n00:12:01,733 --> 00:12:26,386\n這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛\n\n35\n00:12:28,151 --> 00:12:41,485\n我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決\n\n36\n00:12:50,495 --> 00:13:13,830\n那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體\n\n37\n00:13:15,011 --> 00:13:33,078\n當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7660\t21551\t謝謝主席 因為我們時間比較短 本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長 還有廉政署署長 權敘部的司長\n31090\t39061\t以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝\n45234\t62181\t首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職\n65648\t85922\t本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的\n87063\t104851\t今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責\n105791\t132669\t不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效\n134310\t152257\t我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元\n154718\t167328\t那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說\n169877\t193854\t這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊\n199028\t226312\t如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是好 簡單說 因為我時間有限\n234106\t256779\t做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略\n257299\t281664\t那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種\n286505\t304872\t你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分\n313895\t339849\t去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那\n341150\t362165\t所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究\n363066\t383751\t今天哪些單位有 今天站在這裡 我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做\n386732\t409069\t有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問 包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含權序部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業\n410430\t421204\t人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來\n424580\t440617\t獨立的跟委員報告 素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會\n442379\t454622\t那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案\n455171\t472182\t你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查\n475667\t495189\t最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有\n497072\t507409\t這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎\n507984\t525729\t以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎\n537113\t559725\t我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養\n561074\t580356\t所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的\n581116\t600743\t最後我要請教 因為整個單位的風氣 包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野 風行朝野 上行下效我想請教最後 我請法務部長好了風行朝野 上行下效 我想請教您\n604464\t613428\t您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門\n614469\t633325\t就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種\n637055\t644147\t這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看\n645950\t675590\t我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊\n678442\t693830\t這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個\n695271\t717209\t辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要\n721733\t746386\t這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛\n748151\t761485\t我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決\n770495\t793830\t那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體\n795011\t813078\t當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 因為我們時間比較短 本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長 還有廉政署署長 權敘部的司長\n以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝\n首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職\n本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的\n今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責\n不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效\n我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元\n那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說\n這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊\n如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是好 簡單說 因為我時間有限\n做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略\n那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種\n你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分\n去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那\n所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究\n今天哪些單位有 今天站在這裡 我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做\n有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問 包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含權序部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業\n人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來\n獨立的跟委員報告 素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會\n那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案\n你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查\n最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有\n這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎\n以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎\n我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養\n所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的\n最後我要請教 因為整個單位的風氣 包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野 風行朝野 上行下效我想請教最後 我請法務部長好了風行朝野 上行下效 我想請教您\n您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門\n就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種\n這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看\n我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊\n這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個\n辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要\n這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛\n我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決\n那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體\n當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.660 --> 00:21.551\n謝謝主席因為我們時間比較短本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長還有廉政署署長權敘部的司長\n\n00:31.090 --> 00:39.061\n以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台謝謝好謝謝\n\n00:45.234 --> 01:02.181\n首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職\n\n01:05.648 --> 01:25.922\n本席手上看到大家的報告很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語中間大概就是直接把整個的\n\n01:27.063 --> 01:44.851\n今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責\n\n01:45.791 --> 02:12.669\n不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效\n\n02:14.310 --> 02:32.257\n我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元\n\n02:34.718 --> 02:47.328\n那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說\n\n02:49.877 --> 03:13.854\n這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊\n\n03:19.028 --> 03:46.312\n如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也你的制度制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你廉政署是不是好簡單說因為我時間有限\n\n03:54.106 --> 04:16.779\n做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略\n\n04:17.299 --> 04:41.664\n那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種\n\n04:46.505 --> 05:04.872\n你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分\n\n05:13.895 --> 05:39.849\n去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那\n\n05:41.150 --> 06:02.165\n所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究\n\n06:03.066 --> 06:23.751\n今天哪些單位有今天站在這裡我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做\n\n06:26.732 --> 06:49.069\n有嗎只有法務部其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問包含司法院包含法務部廉政署包含權序部我們在制度設計上我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業\n\n06:50.430 --> 07:01.204\n人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來\n\n07:04.580 --> 07:20.617\n獨立的跟委員報告素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦你就我的問題回答有沒有我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會\n\n07:22.379 --> 07:34.622\n那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案\n\n07:35.171 --> 07:52.182\n你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查\n\n07:55.667 --> 08:15.189\n最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有\n\n08:17.072 --> 08:27.409\n這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎\n\n08:27.984 --> 08:45.729\n以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎\n\n08:57.113 --> 09:19.725\n我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養\n\n09:21.074 --> 09:40.356\n所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的\n\n09:41.116 --> 10:00.743\n最後我要請教因為整個單位的風氣包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野風行朝野上行下效我想請教最後我請法務部長好了風行朝野上行下效我想請教您\n\n10:04.464 --> 10:13.428\n您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門\n\n10:14.469 --> 10:33.325\n就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種\n\n10:37.055 --> 10:44.147\n這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看\n\n10:45.950 --> 11:15.590\n我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊\n\n11:18.442 --> 11:33.830\n這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個\n\n11:35.271 --> 11:57.209\n辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要\n\n12:01.733 --> 12:26.386\n這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛\n\n12:28.151 --> 12:41.485\n我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決\n\n12:50.495 --> 13:13.830\n那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體\n\n13:15.011 --> 13:33.078\n當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.66,"end":21.551,"text":"謝謝主席 因為我們時間比較短 本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長 還有廉政署署長 權敘部的司長"},{"start":31.09,"end":39.061,"text":"以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":45.234,"end":62.181,"text":"首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職"},{"start":65.648,"end":85.922,"text":"本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的"},{"start":87.063,"end":104.851,"text":"今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責"},{"start":105.791,"end":132.669,"text":"不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效"},{"start":134.31,"end":152.257,"text":"我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元"},{"start":154.718,"end":167.328,"text":"那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說"},{"start":169.877,"end":193.854,"text":"這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊"},{"start":199.028,"end":226.312,"text":"如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是好 簡單說 因為我時間有限"},{"start":234.106,"end":256.779,"text":"做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略"},{"start":257.299,"end":281.664,"text":"那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種"},{"start":286.505,"end":304.872,"text":"你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分"},{"start":313.895,"end":339.849,"text":"去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那"},{"start":341.15,"end":362.165,"text":"所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究"},{"start":363.066,"end":383.751,"text":"今天哪些單位有 今天站在這裡 我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做"},{"start":386.732,"end":409.069,"text":"有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問 包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含權序部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業"},{"start":410.43,"end":421.204,"text":"人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來"},{"start":424.58,"end":440.617,"text":"獨立的跟委員報告 素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會"},{"start":442.379,"end":454.622,"text":"那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案"},{"start":455.171,"end":472.182,"text":"你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查"},{"start":475.667,"end":495.189,"text":"最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有"},{"start":497.072,"end":507.409,"text":"這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎"},{"start":507.984,"end":525.729,"text":"以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎"},{"start":537.113,"end":559.725,"text":"我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養"},{"start":561.074,"end":580.356,"text":"所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的"},{"start":581.116,"end":600.743,"text":"最後我要請教 因為整個單位的風氣 包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野 風行朝野 上行下效我想請教最後 我請法務部長好了風行朝野 上行下效 我想請教您"},{"start":604.464,"end":613.428,"text":"您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門"},{"start":614.469,"end":633.325,"text":"就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種"},{"start":637.055,"end":644.147,"text":"這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看"},{"start":645.95,"end":675.59,"text":"我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊"},{"start":678.442,"end":693.83,"text":"這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個"},{"start":695.271,"end":717.209,"text":"辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要"},{"start":721.733,"end":746.386,"text":"這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛"},{"start":748.151,"end":761.485,"text":"我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決"},{"start":770.495,"end":793.83,"text":"那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體"},{"start":795.011,"end":813.078,"text":"當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時21分）謝謝主席，因為我們時間比較短，本席有請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長另有要務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那誰代理他？"],["主席：廳長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：刑事廳的廳長，好。還有法務部部長、廉政署署長、銓敘部的司長，以及保訓會的專門委員，還有人事行政總處專委。"],["主席：麻煩請部長、署長、司長、保訓會專委、人事行政總處專委上臺，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先，我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣一個專案報告，我們大家都很關心，其實全國民眾更關心，我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府，而且有效的防制公務員瀆職。本席看到大家的報告，很多都是空泛的詞彙，最嚴重的是人事行政總處，就是不到一頁，去掉問候跟結語，中間大概就是直接把整個內容推給廉政署，再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理。本席在這裡要先講，人事行政總處或任何一個單位的公務人員，對於清廉的政府都有職責，不是說人事行政總處只是負責好像寫卡片，我記錄，絕對不是，所以在這裡，我特別針對人事行政總處。您可以先回座了，後面的你就坐在底下聽。","首先，我們看到大家的報告，但是我們想要的是什麼？全民想要的是具體的行動，還有明確的責任歸屬，以及我們看得到成效。我們手上有一個數據也是司法院提供的，從98年到現在，地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次、30,264罪次；從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元。從這些數據，難道我們還沒有發現所面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎？系統性貪污或系統性瀆職。","所以我們想要了解，大家都知道預防勝於治療，但如果預防不了，那就要積極治療。預防就是防貪，治療就是肅貪，我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防貪、肅貪，接著再防貪，所以我們怎麼樣有效預防，哪一個單位有效地回答我一下？有效預防不是口頭說說，如何有效預防，至少讓所有公務員覺得他絕對不能……就是你的制度設計要讓他覺得做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價，所以不該做。我們在預防方面，有沒有哪一個單位、哪一位今天在場的，你覺得你……廉政署是不是？好，簡單說，因為我時間有限。"],["馮署長成：跟委員講，在98年的時候，國家廉政建設啟動方案，到113年也有在做這方面的調整。針對國家廉政建設，其中我們的四大目標……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說哪一年訂的？"],["馮署長成：98年的一個行政指標，到113年有修正。其中的四大目標部分，就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的，它有四大目標，就是不願貪、不必貪、不能貪、不敢貪這四個目標。再來有九個策略，在這個策略之中，我們每年會針對國家廉政建設的地方做目標的追蹤，但現在跟委員報告，今年度已經出來，目前有94到95個部分是完成的，跟委員做這樣的說明。","至於防貪的這部分，現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸，從100年7月20日到現在是14年，一開始是肅貪跟防貪並重，現在已經到七成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你直接講重點，防貪制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說的？"],["馮署長成：剛剛那個AI部分先不提，我們目前最主要推的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：AI該提，等一下我也要問。"],["馮署長成：好，我們有一個機關採購廉政平臺，跟各個檢察機關、調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平臺，針對重大的機關採購部分，阻擋外力介入。在這樣的過程之中，我們目前針對重大工程中……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你講到採購，我請教，重大工程的採購最容易出問題，你們有沒有那種預警模式，包含用AI？現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI，它想辦法，它有辦法去找，會找出來。所以我就一起問，AI，還有你有沒有一種預警模式？你要預防，你就要預警。"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，我們一向都在注意這一塊，委員提到的審計部裡面，其實我要稱讚審計部確實做得很好，也給我們一個啟發，所以我們現在開始也針對AI生成這個地方做更防貪的前端研究……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在哪些單位有？今天站在這裡，我請教，你的單位已經開始著手要用AI去做一些防貪，包含你的業務，你有用AI做這種科技上的、你可以事先找到或事先預防的請舉手，哪個單位有在做了，有嗎？"],["馮署長成：對，我們有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：只有法務部？"],["馮署長成：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：其他的就要再加強。因為時間的關係，接下來，防貪之外，肅貪也很重要，我們看到都是自己人查自己人。請問包含司法院、法務部廉政署，包含銓敘部，在制度設計上，我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業人士進行調查，而不是自己人查自己人？我怎麼知道你有沒有官官相護或者是怎麼樣！這一塊有沒有可能進行？專業的會計師、律師獨立地……"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，肅貪的部分目前我們都會要求正確性，目前廉政署的正確性大概是94%。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就我的問題回答，有沒有？我們有沒有這樣的制度，引入外部獨立的專業人士進行？"],["馮署長成：我們有一個會叫做廉政審查會，就是針對案件如果要結，哪裡還有不足之處，我們有請各單位的專家跟外邊的委員，要一起認同這個案子查到他們都覺得已經OK了，我們才會結案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：各單位的專家？我剛剛聽到「各單位的專家」還是自己人喔！"],["馮署長成：有工程會，也有外界的學者，不是我們自己人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔！是外界。"],["馮署長成：對，外界的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是……"],["馮署長成：不是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：外界的單位。"],["馮署長成：外界的，有來自於各地的一些學者、各領域的學者，還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的審查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。最後，我們看到新興科技日新月異，除了AI來預防之外，我們知道現在也有很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的，包含其他可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊。我們是不是也有針對這個部分進行風險評估，或者是包括查緝單位，你有沒有……你不能用傳統的方式去查，你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎？"],["馮署長成：以廉政署的作法來說明，跟委員講，我們目前在財產申報之中，之前的一部分已經把虛擬貨幣列入其中要申報的一個項目。我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有辦相關的、跟肅貪這邊去辦一些課程。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的問題具體是，針對現在的新興科技，包含虛擬貨幣這個部分，如果發現跟虛擬貨幣有關，我們現在有沒有緝查能力？"],["馮署長成：我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會有這方面的查緝能力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：都怎麼樣？"],["馮署長成：我們當然會有查緝能力，我們針對目前的虛擬貨幣，當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較要精進的，但是我們已經有注意到這一塊，也會朝這個方向去做我們人員在這方面能力的培養。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，質詢時間很短，但我們希望能夠日見成效，而不是讓國人都一直看到的是，現在臺灣民眾都認為貪污是理所當然的，其實這是最不好的。","最後我要請教，整個單位的風氣，包括全臺灣，我們是不是一個清廉的政府？人家說風行草偃，上行下效。最後我請法務部長好了，風行草偃，上行下效，我想請教您，您的長官或者是您自己，平常你們用怎麼樣的身教、言教帶領整個公部門？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就誠如委員所說，我想「子帥以正，孰敢不正？」風行草偃……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我具體一點，不知道我們現在的領導者，從上到下，從總統府、行政院一直到各部會再往下，到底有沒有我們就是要清廉政府的這種帶領、這種風氣營造，包含這些領導者的言行，甚至他的身教，有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想以法務部的立場，我們就是重視預防。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我要聽具體的，你上任一年多以來，不管是賴總統或卓院長，有什麼具體的跟大家耳提面命，或是怎麼樣具體的作法帶著大家要這樣子，有沒有？我想聽一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調清廉執政，這個是大家全力來落實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還是沒聽到他講過什麼，你有印象的啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個我們依法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：或是你，你平常帶領你的部屬，你怎麼跟他們說？"],["鄭部長銘謙：正人要正己。我們是執法單位，正人要正己。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部及所屬有偵辦犯罪案的重要職掌，也有一些肅貪政策、防貪政策，我想我們就全力推動。我跟委員報告，清廉印象指數我們一直在進步，去年這一年我們的清廉印象指數在國際上是25……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要老是用表面的數據。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是表面，是國際公認的，這個就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：民眾的感受比較重要。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個是國際公認。民眾對我們政府的期望是很高的，我們非常清楚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你覺得民眾期望太高了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，民眾的期望本來就很高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您是去年才就任，你有沒有聽過，賴政府上來之後，賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別……"],["鄭部長銘謙：賴總統有講嘛！凡涉及不法犯罪，不分黨派勿枉勿縱嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說清廉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：清廉的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那這個清廉，我想我們一起全面努力，這個包括公部門、私部門一起來努力。我跟委員報告，貪腐的問題，從聯合國反貪腐公約以及國際的這些透明組織，他們認為公部門的貪腐跟私部門的貪腐都要解決。我們國家整個清廉在國際的公評上，我們CPI指數是一直在增加，去年我們就進步了3名，我們67分，進步了3名，很多先進國家還在我們的後面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！我想聽的都沒聽到。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在亞太地區是第7名，我想媒體……"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好啦！當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現，我們當然還是要肯定大家，但是我的問題是，我想知道平常到底我們整個氛圍、整個行政團隊的氛圍……沒關係，因為時間的關係，您講那麼多，我還是沒聽到我要的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員詢問時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員林倩綺所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}