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\"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,533 --> 00:00:07,035\n謝謝主席麻煩部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,740 --> 00:00:43,735\n陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障\n\n3\n00:00:44,395 --> 00:00:54,402\n但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆\n\n4\n00:01:03,248 --> 00:01:23,583\n上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說\n\n5\n00:01:26,345 --> 00:01:43,979\n撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的\n\n6\n00:01:50,965 --> 00:01:54,747\n解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕\n\n7\n00:02:09,295 --> 00:02:36,564\n他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎\n\n8\n00:02:39,002 --> 00:02:52,922\n我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行\n\n9\n00:02:55,039 --> 00:03:17,177\n各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費\n\n10\n00:03:22,802 --> 00:03:41,370\n如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的\n\n11\n00:03:42,210 --> 00:03:59,831\n他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎\n\n12\n00:04:00,578 --> 00:04:25,053\n我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊\n\n13\n00:04:25,543 --> 00:04:45,520\n那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補\n\n14\n00:04:49,964 --> 00:05:12,550\n所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法\n\n15\n00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:17,835\n入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了\n\n16\n00:05:28,607 --> 00:05:51,299\n市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個\n\n17\n00:05:53,380 --> 00:06:18,745\n我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞\n\n18\n00:06:19,885 --> 00:06:45,567\n那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限\n\n19\n00:06:47,829 --> 00:07:08,527\n雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的\n\n20\n00:07:14,912 --> 00:07:30,301\n沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容\n\n21\n00:07:34,619 --> 00:07:39,443\n就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主\n\n22\n00:07:54,033 --> 00:08:16,012\n那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂\n\n23\n00:08:16,693 --> 00:08:44,480\n不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是\n\n24\n00:08:46,300 --> 00:09:08,859\n第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介\n\n25\n00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:29,336\n那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的\n\n26\n00:09:34,294 --> 00:09:53,872\n你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年\n\n27\n00:09:54,392 --> 00:10:09,754\n所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是\n\n28\n00:10:10,535 --> 00:10:27,244\n我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介\n\n29\n00:10:28,705 --> 00:10:51,054\n讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合\n\n30\n00:10:52,154 --> 00:11:10,160\n產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的\n\n31\n00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:25,686\n部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用\n\n32\n00:11:26,346 --> 00:11:51,247\n那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調\n\n33\n00:11:52,908 --> 00:12:12,331\n就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升\n\n34\n00:12:12,831 --> 00:12:27,545\n我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利\n\n35\n00:12:28,866 --> 00:12:55,725\n那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎\n\n36\n00:12:56,830 --> 00:13:12,729\n我當然同我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套\n\n37\n00:13:13,930 --> 00:13:28,823\n現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況\n\n38\n00:13:29,363 --> 00:13:46,131\n那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來\n\n39\n00:13:49,132 --> 00:13:57,858\n過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6533\t7035\t謝謝主席 麻煩部長\n14740\t43735\t陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障\n44395\t54402\t但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆\n63248\t83583\t上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說\n86345\t103979\t撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的\n110965\t114747\t解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕\n129295\t156564\t他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎\n159002\t172922\t我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行\n175039\t197177\t各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費\n202802\t221370\t如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的\n222210\t239831\t他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎\n240578\t265053\t我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊\n265543\t285520\t那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補\n289964\t312550\t所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法\n313610\t317835\t入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了\n328607\t351299\t市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個\n353380\t378745\t我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞\n379885\t405567\t那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限\n407829\t428527\t雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的\n434912\t450301\t沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容\n454619\t459443\t就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主\n474033\t496012\t那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂\n496693\t524480\t不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是\n526300\t548859\t第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介\n549940\t569336\t那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的\n574294\t593872\t你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年\n594392\t609754\t所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是\n610535\t627244\t我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介\n628705\t651054\t讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合\n652154\t670160\t產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的\n670720\t685686\t部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用\n686346\t711247\t那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調\n712908\t732331\t就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升\n732831\t747545\t我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利\n748866\t775725\t那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎\n776830\t792729\t我當然同 我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套\n793930\t808823\t現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況\n809363\t826131\t那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來\n829132\t837858\t過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長\n陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障\n但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆\n上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說\n撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的\n解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕\n他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎\n我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行\n各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費\n如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的\n他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎\n我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊\n那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補\n所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法\n入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了\n市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個\n我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞\n那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限\n雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的\n沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容\n就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主\n那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂\n不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是\n第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介\n那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的\n你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年\n所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是\n我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介\n讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合\n產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的\n部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用\n那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調\n就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升\n我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利\n那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎\n我當然同 我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套\n現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況\n那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來\n過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.533 --> 00:07.035\n謝謝主席麻煩部長\n\n00:14.740 --> 00:43.735\n陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障\n\n00:44.395 --> 00:54.402\n但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆\n\n01:03.248 --> 01:23.583\n上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說\n\n01:26.345 --> 01:43.979\n撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的\n\n01:50.965 --> 01:54.747\n解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕\n\n02:09.295 --> 02:36.564\n他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎\n\n02:39.002 --> 02:52.922\n我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行\n\n02:55.039 --> 03:17.177\n各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費\n\n03:22.802 --> 03:41.370\n如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的\n\n03:42.210 --> 03:59.831\n他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎\n\n04:00.578 --> 04:25.053\n我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊\n\n04:25.543 --> 04:45.520\n那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補\n\n04:49.964 --> 05:12.550\n所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法\n\n05:13.610 --> 05:17.835\n入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了\n\n05:28.607 --> 05:51.299\n市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個\n\n05:53.380 --> 06:18.745\n我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞\n\n06:19.885 --> 06:45.567\n那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限\n\n06:47.829 --> 07:08.527\n雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的\n\n07:14.912 --> 07:30.301\n沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容\n\n07:34.619 --> 07:39.443\n就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主\n\n07:54.033 --> 08:16.012\n那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂\n\n08:16.693 --> 08:44.480\n不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是\n\n08:46.300 --> 09:08.859\n第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介\n\n09:09.940 --> 09:29.336\n那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的\n\n09:34.294 --> 09:53.872\n你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年\n\n09:54.392 --> 10:09.754\n所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是\n\n10:10.535 --> 10:27.244\n我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介\n\n10:28.705 --> 10:51.054\n讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合\n\n10:52.154 --> 11:10.160\n產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的\n\n11:10.720 --> 11:25.686\n部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用\n\n11:26.346 --> 11:51.247\n那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調\n\n11:52.908 --> 12:12.331\n就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升\n\n12:12.831 --> 12:27.545\n我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利\n\n12:28.866 --> 12:55.725\n那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎\n\n12:56.830 --> 13:12.729\n我當然同我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套\n\n13:13.930 --> 13:28.823\n現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況\n\n13:29.363 --> 13:46.131\n那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來\n\n13:49.132 --> 13:57.858\n過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.533,"end":7.035,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長"},{"start":14.74,"end":43.735,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障"},{"start":44.395,"end":54.402,"text":"但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆"},{"start":63.248,"end":83.583,"text":"上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說"},{"start":86.345,"end":103.979,"text":"撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的"},{"start":110.965,"end":114.747,"text":"解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕"},{"start":129.295,"end":156.564,"text":"他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎"},{"start":159.002,"end":172.922,"text":"我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行"},{"start":175.039,"end":197.177,"text":"各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費"},{"start":202.802,"end":221.37,"text":"如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的"},{"start":222.21,"end":239.831,"text":"他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎"},{"start":240.578,"end":265.053,"text":"我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊"},{"start":265.543,"end":285.52,"text":"那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補"},{"start":289.964,"end":312.55,"text":"所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法"},{"start":313.61,"end":317.835,"text":"入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了"},{"start":328.607,"end":351.299,"text":"市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個"},{"start":353.38,"end":378.745,"text":"我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞"},{"start":379.885,"end":405.567,"text":"那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限"},{"start":407.829,"end":428.527,"text":"雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的"},{"start":434.912,"end":450.301,"text":"沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容"},{"start":454.619,"end":459.443,"text":"就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主"},{"start":474.033,"end":496.012,"text":"那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂"},{"start":496.693,"end":524.48,"text":"不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是"},{"start":526.3,"end":548.859,"text":"第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介"},{"start":549.94,"end":569.336,"text":"那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的"},{"start":574.294,"end":593.872,"text":"你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年"},{"start":594.392,"end":609.754,"text":"所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是"},{"start":610.535,"end":627.244,"text":"我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介"},{"start":628.705,"end":651.054,"text":"讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合"},{"start":652.154,"end":670.16,"text":"產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的"},{"start":670.72,"end":685.686,"text":"部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用"},{"start":686.346,"end":711.247,"text":"那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調"},{"start":712.908,"end":732.331,"text":"就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升"},{"start":732.831,"end":747.545,"text":"我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利"},{"start":748.866,"end":775.725,"text":"那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎"},{"start":776.83,"end":792.729,"text":"我當然同 我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套"},{"start":793.93,"end":808.823,"text":"現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況"},{"start":809.363,"end":826.131,"text":"那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來"},{"start":829.132,"end":837.858,"text":"過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，上次我們在處理解凍案的時候，我要求勞動部修改勞保條例，把最終給付責任入法，雖然當時附帶決議是修正後通過了，但我並不是很滿意，因為當時部長您一直把責任先推給主計總處，但我也明白您的難處，不過我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清。勞保本來就是勞工老年之後的經濟保障，但是現在卻成為不定時炸彈，為什麼我這樣說呢？根據勞動部最新的精算報告，勞保基金財務用罄的時間是2028年後到2031年之間，潛藏負債仍然從10.29兆上升到13.23兆，目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持，但是隨著人口的老化跟萎縮，我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大。部長，你看第一會期勞動部回答楊曜委員的書面報告，當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示，撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助，未來將視財務狀況持續撥補。我覺得這些話就是鴕鳥心態，一年拖過一年，反正就是不斷繼續撥補，所以一直沒有去處理與面對的政策，只是持續在燒人民的納稅錢。其實我並沒有反對撥補，但是政府不應該把撥補當作唯一的解決方法，請部長參考前勞保局局長石發基在3月受訪時表示，年金按通膨調高給付，造成勞保財務的洞實在太大了，問題很嚴重，撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕。他過去也主張以撥補來代替勞保改革，但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重，加上川普上任後，整個世界經濟動盪，前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高，但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道，勞保財務要永續其實是很困難。我還是要請教部長一樣的問題，對於健全勞保財務，難道只有讓人民不斷掏錢的手段嗎？只能不斷地撥補嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們對於勞保基金維持的作法與政策，其實並不是只有撥補，撥補很重要，但也不是只有撥補，各種方式我們也都在進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們還是等待專題報告啦！上次我們修正主決議之後，去年10月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會，不知道部長知不知道？這是針對勞保財務政府最終支付責任入法的公聽會，我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長參考，全國職業工會理事長楊芸蘋說，勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續繳納保費，如果基金財務出了問題，卻沒有人來負責的話，受害的將是最需要保障的這群弱勢族群。全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林恩豪也說，政府從上到下包括勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任，但是勞工最擔心的是會不會只聞樓梯響卻沒有落實？其實勞工朋友最關心的是他們年年繳納保費，但會不會終將化為烏有？所以我要請教部長，您是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢？您還支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在整個政策就是政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：那入法呢？我的重點還是入法啊！"],["洪部長申翰：關於入法的問題，不管有入法或沒入法，政府都會負最終支付責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你看這張你當初有簽啊！我也簽，你也簽啊！就是入法啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我說對於相關的政策……對於委員的提案我們都還是會尊重。"],["陳委員昭姿：在野黨為什麼要再提入法你知道嗎？因為這個問題實在放太久了，因為沒有人想要解決，就只是把它放著。"],["洪部長申翰：我要強調我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響，其實現在政府亦有包括歲計賸餘的財源，我們就視財政的狀況來規劃撥補，其實這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補，包括特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補，所以我們是很努力在落實政府對於勞保基金財務責任的問題，並不是只聞樓梯響，我們不會這樣子。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持基金的水位，我想你也是有心來解決問題，但是針對入法，入法是白紙黑字，它確立政府的責任，讓政府能夠誠實地面對這個問題，也讓撥補可以正常化，這樣勞工就不用整天提心吊膽，因為看到報紙寫說快要破產了！部長你要記得立法的初衷啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對於現在委員在這部分的法案提案，我們第一個尊重，第二個是行政院確實也在整體……之前林國成委員在院會的質詢……"],["陳委員昭姿：是啊，這個案子就是林國成委員提的。"],["洪部長申翰：行政院院長也表達持開放的態度，覺得我們可以來研議，其實這就是我們對於勞保最終支付責任的態度。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那我們就等著主決議修正的內容，看看你們怎麼開始動手。","另外，今天我在報告中沒有看到，臺灣開放移工已經有36年了，雖然你說勞保有七十幾年歷史。臺灣的照護產業及基層製造業高度仰賴移工的付出，但目前勞保及勞退制度改革大部分都集中在本勞，移工的處境其實也應該納入討論。5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求，部長知道這件事嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有，我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：台灣照顧勞動產業工會指出，就業服務法從1992年就開始實施到現在，已經三十幾年了，仍然保留對移工不合理的制度，譬如對於藍領的移工，現行法設有12年的工作上限年限，雖然看護工可以在滿足評點制度的情況下延後到14年，但還是有上限，雖然有推出「留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫」作為延長工作許可的方法，但這個制度卻使移工陷入更深層的剝削，我告訴部長為什麼？因為中階的配額跟認定方法完全是由雇主主導，移工本身沒有談判權，而它所設的條件也足以讓以營利為目的的私營企業人力仲介公司有機可乘，收取高額費用，使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的負擔，部長，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我知道這場記者會，也知道這裡面訴求的內容。"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道狀況是這樣，好。其實團體們有表示，計畫出發點是好的，你想要留才、久用，但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的，現在的制度無法客觀評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內的真才實幹，因為現在把評價責任外包給雇主，同時這個制度在相關過程當中創造許多工人更不可能參與的行政手續，等於給了人力仲介上下其手賺取違法收入的空間。我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長：第一個是工資被操控，為了能留在臺灣繼續工作，不少移工不得不配合雇主跟仲介簽訂不符合事實的勞動契約，接受低於中階制度規定的工資，這是第一個，也就是工資是被操控的。第二個，家庭看護工因為本身缺乏休假，資訊比較封閉，也因為中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中，他們常常淪為辦理中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象，通常被騙了好幾萬的臺幣來取得證照，可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿，甚至不要錢，這是第二個點，這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔，今年家事工跟正式部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%。第三個問題點是中階移工返國後想再回來臺灣很困難，因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到臺灣，必須透過母國的仲介，就會遇到一些困難，臺灣的仲介也不肯幫忙，為什麼呢？因為中階移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費，仲介無利可圖，這一切都在證明目前的中階制度裡面真正受益的不是移工，而是仲介受益。部長，這個部分……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：您今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分，但我們又仰賴很多……"],["洪部長申翰：因為今天的報告主題不是這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們過去很多的提案是要增加移工，但您都說有困難，表示臺灣沒有競爭力，沒有競爭力當然是很大的問題，有很多種原因，但是我想他們也貢獻了三十幾年。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們會有幾個事情，確實相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間，我們會從幾個部分來進行：第一個，我們會再更明確地去確保中階技術人力、藍領相關在臺灣的權益，這是第一個。第二個，我們現在已經交代發展署，會強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能，也就是說，的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介，讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮得更大，所以剛剛委員在講的，我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或雇主，他們在臺灣的聘僱、招聘過程裡面不一定非得要透過仲介……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我知道，你有講到重點了。"],["洪部長申翰：包括直聘的制度、轉換的制度我們現在都在檢討，甚至會做進一步的整合。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，產業工會三點訴求很清楚：第一個，廢除藍領移工的工作年限限制；第二個，修正中階制度，也就是剛剛提到的，使其公平、透明，並保障移工的權利；第三個，廢除仲介制度，全面用直接聘僱機制取代。剛剛你講了一些點，這些東西部內有在處理嗎？有在規劃嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛才跟委員說明的……"],["陳委員昭姿：這才是重點啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們的確現在就是想要提高在直聘上面的量能及功能，能夠讓移工、雇主更好用，能更直接用政府的機制就順利完成移工聘僱過程所需要的相關權利保護，而不一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成，這是我們接下來希望盡力來做的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：這已經連續好幾任部長我都一直在質詢，但是……"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜，有新的來源國也都不做啊！部長，你有開始嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，並不是新的來源國不做，我還是要強調，就像在5月的時候，我們已經說接下來會在中南部再增設直聘中心的點。"],["陳委員昭姿：直聘中心的部分我再跟你討論，那個非常複雜。"],["洪部長申翰：直聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心……我們希望能夠做相關的整合，也就是我們都希望能對移工相關權益的服務有更大程度的提升。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我另外再提一點，許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重，制度沒有提供足夠的支持，導致移工跟雇主的關係很緊繃，這不是雇主的錯，而是政府還是要插手來管理這件事。部長，你在當立委的時候也非常關心移工的權利，你也理解移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢，你也知道需求越高，我們修了好幾部法，到現在都還沒有辦法進行，處境也較本國勞工辛苦些，我想政府如果真的希望看到一個永續、具包容性的退休制度，除了我們要照顧本勞的未來，也應該正視這群為臺灣經濟、製造業及照顧體系付出的移工。部長，您認同這樣的作法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我當然認同，我現在也還是很關心移工的權利。"],["陳委員昭姿：像巴氏量表等等的放寬到現在都沒有動靜，你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源之類的，那麼你就要從競爭……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要強調，並不是沒有動靜，我們發展署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套……"],["陳委員昭姿：很多人問喔！"],["洪部長申翰：現在的配套準備，其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套，就是希望降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊，因為確實現在有一些棄重擇輕的狀況已經開始在發生了，這是我們不願意見到的情況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，勞動部的責任真的重大，我想讓部長知道，你身為部長的位階，臺灣是一個注重人權的國家，不論國籍跟膚色，我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要的是，除了其經濟力要很強之外，人權的議題也是非常重要，我也希望勞動部要將這個責任擔起來。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為過去我們有一些惡名，這也是不爭之事實，所以希望你把人權的部分、包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞動部請加油，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}