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\"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 416.973, \"end\": 417.674, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 417.674, \"end\": 418.355, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 418.355, \"end\": 418.535, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 418.535, \"end\": 418.696, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 418.696, \"end\": 418.716, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 421.557, \"end\": 448.144, \"text\": \"報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 421.557, \"end\": 421.657, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 421.657, \"end\": 422.217, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 422.217, \"end\": 422.457, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 422.457, 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\"來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 450.986, \"end\": 451.606, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 451.606, \"end\": 452.326, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 452.326, \"end\": 452.506, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 452.506, \"end\": 452.807, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 452.807, \"end\": 453.147, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 453.147, \"end\": 453.867, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 453.867, \"end\": 454.127, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 454.127, \"end\": 454.347, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 454.347, \"end\": 454.547, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 454.547, \"end\": 454.747, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 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\"財\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 464.629, \"end\": 464.909, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 464.909, \"end\": 465.11, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 465.11, \"end\": 465.27, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 465.27, \"end\": 465.41, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 465.41, \"end\": 465.99, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 465.99, \"end\": 466.13, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 466.13, \"end\": 466.33, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 466.33, \"end\": 466.79, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 466.79, \"end\": 466.97, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 466.97, \"end\": 467.07, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 467.07, \"end\": 467.29, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:14,388\n有請我們的勞動部洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者\n\n2\n00:00:27,691 --> 00:00:56,765\n藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全\n\n3\n00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:21,258\n所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊零工啊\n\n4\n00:01:21,838 --> 00:01:29,991\n在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人\n\n5\n00:01:30,987 --> 00:01:52,081\n我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們\n\n6\n00:01:53,542 --> 00:02:08,694\n藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持\n\n7\n00:02:12,028 --> 00:02:28,711\n那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括\n\n8\n00:02:29,252 --> 00:02:49,648\n我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元\n\n9\n00:02:51,790 --> 00:03:13,365\n一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保\n\n10\n00:03:14,437 --> 00:03:33,698\n劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任\n\n11\n00:03:35,915 --> 00:04:01,781\n第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到\n\n12\n00:04:02,661 --> 00:04:21,937\n這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子\n\n13\n00:04:22,637 --> 00:04:44,490\n所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做\n\n14\n00:04:46,311 --> 00:05:02,027\n那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的\n\n15\n00:05:02,507 --> 00:05:28,020\n投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领\n\n16\n00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:40,667\n4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講\n\n17\n00:05:45,132 --> 00:05:58,991\n因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢\n\n18\n00:06:00,172 --> 00:06:11,249\n這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎\n\n19\n00:06:16,127 --> 00:06:44,157\n我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的\n\n20\n00:06:45,057 --> 00:06:58,716\n年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎\n\n21\n00:07:01,557 --> 00:07:28,144\n報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講\n\n22\n00:07:30,986 --> 00:07:50,711\n來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的\n\n23\n00:07:51,638 --> 00:08:05,754\n反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險\n\n24\n00:08:07,813 --> 00:08:24,956\n那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高\n\n25\n00:08:36,738 --> 00:08:41,582\n勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何\n\n26\n00:08:53,097 --> 00:09:20,102\n確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通\n\n27\n00:09:21,202 --> 00:09:45,003\n其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些\n\n28\n00:09:45,943 --> 00:10:12,201\n這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用\n\n29\n00:10:16,103 --> 00:10:33,412\n所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做\n\n30\n00:10:33,885 --> 00:10:49,225\n因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他\n\n31\n00:10:50,025 --> 00:11:19,425\n他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已\n\n32\n00:11:20,286 --> 00:11:39,700\n我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助\n\n33\n00:11:39,980 --> 00:12:01,514\n那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何\n\n34\n00:12:02,493 --> 00:12:20,703\n跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩\n\n35\n00:12:21,547 --> 00:12:33,420\n我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11046\t14388\t有請我們的勞動部 洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者\n27691\t56765\t藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全\n57679\t81258\t所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是 特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊\n81838\t89991\t在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人\n90987\t112081\t我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們\n113542\t128694\t藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持\n132028\t148711\t那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括\n149252\t169648\t我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元\n171790\t193365\t一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保\n194437\t213698\t劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任\n215915\t241781\t第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到\n242661\t261937\t這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子\n262637\t284490\t所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做\n286311\t302027\t那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的\n302507\t328020\t投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领\n329876\t340667\t4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講\n345132\t358991\t因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢\n360172\t371249\t這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎\n376127\t404157\t我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的\n405057\t418716\t年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎\n421557\t448144\t報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講\n450986\t470711\t來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的\n471638\t485754\t反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險\n487813\t504956\t那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高\n516738\t521582\t勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何\n533097\t560102\t確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通\n561202\t585003\t其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些\n585943\t612201\t這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用\n616103\t633412\t所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做\n633885\t649225\t因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他\n650025\t679425\t他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已\n680286\t699700\t我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助\n699980\t721514\t那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何\n722493\t740703\t跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩\n741547\t753420\t我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題\n","txt":"有請我們的勞動部 洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者\n藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全\n所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是 特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊\n在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人\n我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們\n藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持\n那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括\n我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元\n一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保\n劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任\n第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到\n這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子\n所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做\n那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的\n投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领\n4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講\n因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢\n這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎\n我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的\n年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎\n報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講\n來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的\n反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險\n那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高\n勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何\n確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通\n其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些\n這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用\n所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做\n因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他\n他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已\n我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助\n那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何\n跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩\n我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.046 --> 00:14.388\n有請我們的勞動部洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者\n\n00:27.691 --> 00:56.765\n藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全\n\n00:57.679 --> 01:21.258\n所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊零工啊\n\n01:21.838 --> 01:29.991\n在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人\n\n01:30.987 --> 01:52.081\n我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們\n\n01:53.542 --> 02:08.694\n藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持\n\n02:12.028 --> 02:28.711\n那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括\n\n02:29.252 --> 02:49.648\n我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元\n\n02:51.790 --> 03:13.365\n一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保\n\n03:14.437 --> 03:33.698\n劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任\n\n03:35.915 --> 04:01.781\n第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到\n\n04:02.661 --> 04:21.937\n這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子\n\n04:22.637 --> 04:44.490\n所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做\n\n04:46.311 --> 05:02.027\n那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的\n\n05:02.507 --> 05:28.020\n投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领\n\n05:29.876 --> 05:40.667\n4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講\n\n05:45.132 --> 05:58.991\n因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢\n\n06:00.172 --> 06:11.249\n這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎\n\n06:16.127 --> 06:44.157\n我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的\n\n06:45.057 --> 06:58.716\n年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎\n\n07:01.557 --> 07:28.144\n報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講\n\n07:30.986 --> 07:50.711\n來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的\n\n07:51.638 --> 08:05.754\n反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險\n\n08:07.813 --> 08:24.956\n那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高\n\n08:36.738 --> 08:41.582\n勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何\n\n08:53.097 --> 09:20.102\n確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通\n\n09:21.202 --> 09:45.003\n其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些\n\n09:45.943 --> 10:12.201\n這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用\n\n10:16.103 --> 10:33.412\n所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做\n\n10:33.885 --> 10:49.225\n因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他\n\n10:50.025 --> 11:19.425\n他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已\n\n11:20.286 --> 11:39.700\n我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助\n\n11:39.980 --> 12:01.514\n那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何\n\n12:02.493 --> 12:20.703\n跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩\n\n12:21.547 --> 12:33.420\n我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.046,"end":14.388,"text":"有請我們的勞動部 洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者"},{"start":27.691,"end":56.765,"text":"藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全"},{"start":57.679,"end":81.258,"text":"所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是 特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊"},{"start":81.838,"end":89.991,"text":"在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人"},{"start":90.987,"end":112.081,"text":"我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們"},{"start":113.542,"end":128.694,"text":"藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持"},{"start":132.028,"end":148.711,"text":"那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括"},{"start":149.252,"end":169.648,"text":"我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元"},{"start":171.79,"end":193.365,"text":"一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保"},{"start":194.437,"end":213.698,"text":"劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任"},{"start":215.915,"end":241.781,"text":"第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到"},{"start":242.661,"end":261.937,"text":"這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子"},{"start":262.637,"end":284.49,"text":"所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做"},{"start":286.311,"end":302.027,"text":"那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的"},{"start":302.507,"end":328.02,"text":"投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领"},{"start":329.876,"end":340.667,"text":"4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講"},{"start":345.132,"end":358.991,"text":"因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢"},{"start":360.172,"end":371.249,"text":"這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎"},{"start":376.127,"end":404.157,"text":"我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的"},{"start":405.057,"end":418.716,"text":"年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎"},{"start":421.557,"end":448.144,"text":"報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講"},{"start":450.986,"end":470.711,"text":"來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的"},{"start":471.638,"end":485.754,"text":"反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險"},{"start":487.813,"end":504.956,"text":"那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高"},{"start":516.738,"end":521.582,"text":"勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何"},{"start":533.097,"end":560.102,"text":"確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通"},{"start":561.202,"end":585.003,"text":"其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些"},{"start":585.943,"end":612.201,"text":"這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用"},{"start":616.103,"end":633.412,"text":"所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做"},{"start":633.885,"end":649.225,"text":"因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他"},{"start":650.025,"end":679.425,"text":"他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已"},{"start":680.286,"end":699.7,"text":"我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助"},{"start":699.98,"end":721.514,"text":"那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何"},{"start":722.493,"end":740.703,"text":"跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩"},{"start":741.547,"end":753.42,"text":"我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時30分）有請勞動部洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。日本社會學者藤田孝典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念，指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者，要是下流老人人數比例過高的話，社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出。臺灣於今年進入超高齡社會，當然日本的老化程度事實上比我們更早，現今下流老人的問題在於經濟安全，想問部長，預防老人貧窮問題的根本是在勞動部主管的勞退、勞保、高齡就業業務，這個概念你同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我同意，我們當然要避免剛剛委員說的狀況，我想我們也是各部會裡面很重要的一份子。"],["林委員月琴：特別是低薪、非典就業者，就像派遣工、零工，在勞退制度當中的制度性是弱勢的，勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流老人？"],["洪部長申翰：我想除了委員剛才講到的勞退或者是老年年金相關的制度以外，其實我們也持續落實在中高齡就業的專法上面，也因為這個專法，目前看起來整體的老年勞參率是有提高的，也包括我們藉由這個法也發布了中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫，這都是希望促進更多的老年人能夠再一次的參與就業，去確保他們在經濟生活的維持。"],["林委員月琴：從法院審理民事案件的實務當中，我們以參考資料來看的話，臺灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間，可是如果撫養一個人，則費用就會增加一倍。高齡者退休後的收入包括勞工退休金、過去工資的存款、勞保年金及資產的投資等四大項，到2023年為止，勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到1萬8,824元，加上勞退新制平均每月大概可以領到4,616元，這樣看起來一個月可以領2萬3,440元。可是高齡者如果退休後沒有其他收入的話，表示這兩筆社會保險的錢最多只能打平其生活基本需求，若他要撫養其他的親屬，比如妻子或其他，大概就不太可能了。","想問一下，退休後光靠勞保、勞退，錢是不夠用的，是不是應該要提醒勞工？部長，因為事實上我們現在看到……我覺得勞動部對這個問題好像一直是避重就輕，沒有做好社會溝通，所以部長是不是可以負起傳遞真實訊息的責任？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，當然我們會一直鼓勵勞工在勞退上面的自提，因為如果在工作過程裡面就逐步有一定自提比例的話，對於退休以後能夠領到的退休金是有蠻顯著的幫助，這部分我們會盡力來做。另外當然就是剛才說到的，確實我們也看到，也因為社會的高齡化，所以有蠻多的高齡者其實是還有工作能力的，這也是為什麼我剛才講到中高齡及高齡者的就業專法裡面去協助大家還有他們可以發揮所長的地方，一方面他們也可以有再多一點的老年生活收入。"],["林委員月琴：在退休收入不足的狀況下，我認為勞動部是有義務去提醒他們的，勞工透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃，以確保他們的生活，甚至要不要自提6%，也是一種方式，所以我覺得這件事應該要儘快來進行。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["林委員月琴：就麻煩勞動部。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這個部分我們會來做。"],["林委員月琴：社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資，確保基本生活，可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求，在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談，我覺得相當危險。目前勞退基金的投保率在2.96%到4.04%，比定存高一點，為穩健保本的投資策略，反過來說，自提自選感受上好像勞工會賺大錢，可是其實搞不好賺不多，反而要承擔投資失敗的風險。從2023年勞工平均每月可以領4,616元的勞退基金來說的話，自提6%可以加倍領取到9,232元，可是自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話，的確可以領到1萬3,848元。對勞工來講，由於投入的資本小，順利的話事實上每個月也僅能增加4,616元的收入，可是如果投資失利的話，這個自提的6%可能就全部都賠光了，所以這才是贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點。勞動部在整個討論過程當中，我認為還是在避重就輕，沒有好好說給勞工聽。部長，你會積極向社會說明嗎？否則就會有一個誤解，認為他就是會賺大錢。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，社會上一直有人在提自選的這個問題，但其實我們目前的政策是沒有開放自選的。當然，第一個最大的考量其實就是關於風險承受的問題，所以我想我們還是會讓基金的操作儘量穩健成長，來保障勞工年金的收益，或者是經濟上的收益。"],["林委員月琴：可是他們現在也會有一個這樣的誤解，所以我說如果政府也保證，自選的人最終也是能有一個合理的給付，你覺得這樣子有道理嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，因為自選的話，其實就有相當的風險，當勞工選擇高風險的，政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益，這是一個問題，這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的處理。"],["林委員月琴：是，所以我說連帶也要說清楚的是，對於操作基金的投資公司，拿全體勞工自提的錢去做，操作金額大、操作費跟利息高，而且不用承擔風險的話，對財團來講，投報率高，與勞工自選單薄的利潤相比差異極大，可是風險要由勞工承擔，利益的話卻是累積在財團，這一點勞動部應該要跟我們的社會大眾交代清楚，再表達你們反對的理由，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想在相關政策的選擇上，其實都是風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題，我們當然也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通，這裡面應該怎麼認知這些相關的風險。"],["林委員月琴：務實的來看，普遍能夠增加高齡者收入，彌補年金、退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率，可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口，退休前勞動參與率就已經到85.56%了，並且逐年下降，到65歲勞動參與率只剩9.97%。跟國際相比，65歲以上的勞動參與率差人家更多。所以勞動部在提高勞參率這件事情上，應採取45歲到54歲「留在職場」，55歲到64歲「延緩退出職場」，65歲以上「彈性再就業」的分齡策略。勞動部目前規劃的狀況如何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實，目前臺灣在高齡者勞參率的部分，還是比一些國家來得低，這個事情我們也很清楚，所以我們現在是很積極地，也透過剛才說的中高齡就業專法來推動，這幾年下來是有看到成果的，我們還會再持續地針對這個部分努力。","另外一方面，我們也一直在跟企業溝通，包括怎麼樣去克服企業聘僱高齡者可能會遇到的一些問題，比方說如果企業擔心怎麼樣設計強度，高齡者在身體上才有辦法支撐，我們現在其實也透過像職務再設計等等方法，來消除企業聘僱中高齡或高齡者的時候可能會有的一些挑戰。我想政府是非常非常願意大力地來協助，我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識，接下來恐怕在就業市場上面，高齡者、中高齡者的重要性會大幅地提升，我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作。"],["林委員月琴：確實，我們現在已經進入到超高齡社會，不過部長剛剛提到職務再設計的這個概念，真的也很努力，可是一直侷限在製程的變更、輔具及輔助設備上的應用，所以儘管中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已經明定將部分工時作為促進的手段，可是這種職務再設計沒有去考慮到部分工時職缺開發跟媒合的策略。所以想問一下部長，對此，未來你要怎麼做？因為不是只有輔具而已，或是說他去把那個流程……或是用機器來減少，可是問題是他做整天搞不好也沒有辦法。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實剛才委員有講到幾個重要的概念，第一個是部分工時，因為確實滿多高齡者就是表達他比較沒有辦法做全職的工作，他可能就做部分工時的工作，其實現在也越來越多的企業意識到這件事情，所以我們也跟很多企業在討論，甚至在輔導企業，怎麼把相關的工作做一個有效的拆解，或者是在這個職務上面可以做一定程度的拆解，但是拆解的同時還是要符合勞動法規，這部分我們會來輔導。","第二個，剛才講到職務再設計，其實我想也不只是單純請他們用輔具而已，我們會把職務再設計在各個產業或各種職類上面，再推動得更細膩，因為不同的產業或者是不同的職務，所需要的職務再設計可能是不太一樣的，我們在這部分的分眾會做得更細膩，能夠對企業或者是高齡者的工作有更多的幫助。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩勞動部，因為我們現在已經進入到超高齡社會，人力需求又這麼高。本席日前提出由勞動部制定政策推動退休前的1到2年，勞工提前跟原雇主或新雇主議定65歲屆齡退休後的新勞動契約，這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何？"],["洪部長申翰：因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題，我們當然也在檢討，但現有的一些跟雇主協商的機制，我們也希望能夠再更優化，所以再給我們一點時間，我們再來跟委員做一個報告。"],["林委員月琴：好，最後，我今天質詢的這四點，麻煩勞動部能夠面對超高齡社會，避免下流老人的事件發生，針對勞工退休金、勞保年金、就業、理財，要四管齊下，正視這個問題。以上。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}