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\"start\": 727.859, \"end\": 727.879, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 727.879, \"end\": 727.899, \"score\": 0.436}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,051 --> 00:00:06,413\n好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,731 --> 00:00:39,077\n部長好部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然\n\n3\n00:00:42,598 --> 00:01:00,349\n一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢\n\n4\n00:01:01,697 --> 00:01:27,667\n跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把\n\n5\n00:01:29,028 --> 00:01:41,894\n台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果\n\n6\n00:01:45,120 --> 00:02:06,365\n要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期\n\n7\n00:02:07,125 --> 00:02:28,748\n他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安\n\n8\n00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:46,702\n這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央\n\n9\n00:02:47,583 --> 00:02:56,346\n那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠\n\n10\n00:03:15,267 --> 00:03:22,821\n跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件\n\n11\n00:03:23,806 --> 00:03:46,372\n那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色\n\n12\n00:03:47,539 --> 00:04:12,761\n跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後\n\n13\n00:04:15,530 --> 00:04:20,034\n這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責\n\n14\n00:04:22,737 --> 00:04:46,225\n根據我的報告基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對是你們不是因為現在這個家科是剛在整地剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科中科南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局\n\n15\n00:04:46,545 --> 00:04:57,594\n是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的\n\n16\n00:05:16,209 --> 00:05:25,984\n的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的\n\n17\n00:05:31,394 --> 00:05:49,420\n看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個\n\n18\n00:06:01,364 --> 00:06:23,303\n熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎\n\n19\n00:06:27,506 --> 00:06:45,323\n我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場\n\n20\n00:06:52,290 --> 00:07:10,474\n你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的\n\n21\n00:07:11,054 --> 00:07:29,613\n就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的\n\n22\n00:07:30,954 --> 00:07:53,321\n可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場\n\n23\n00:07:55,100 --> 00:08:21,583\n可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分\n\n24\n00:08:22,724 --> 00:08:49,266\n好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎\n\n25\n00:08:50,727 --> 00:09:06,893\n我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安\n\n26\n00:09:08,053 --> 00:09:26,563\n這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考\n\n27\n00:09:28,784 --> 00:09:55,716\n這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個\n\n28\n00:09:56,616 --> 00:10:10,242\n比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說\n\n29\n00:10:19,415 --> 00:10:34,956\n因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个\n\n30\n00:10:37,038 --> 00:10:53,413\n紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個\n\n31\n00:10:54,514 --> 00:11:17,600\n非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好\n\n32\n00:11:18,737 --> 00:11:44,209\n魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近\n\n33\n00:11:45,029 --> 00:12:07,899\n所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5051\t6413\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長\n12731\t39077\t部長好 部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然\n42598\t60349\t一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢\n61697\t87667\t跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把\n89028\t101894\t台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果\n105120\t126365\t要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期\n127125\t148748\t他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安\n149990\t166702\t這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央\n167583\t176346\t那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠\n195267\t202821\t跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件\n203806\t226372\t那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色\n227539\t252761\t跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後\n255530\t260034\t這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責\n262737\t286225\t根據我的報告 基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對 是你們不是 因為現在這個家科是剛在整地 剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科 中科 南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局\n286545\t297594\t是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的\n316209\t325984\t的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的\n331394\t349420\t看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個\n361364\t383303\t熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎\n387506\t405323\t我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場\n412290\t430474\t你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的\n431054\t449613\t就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的\n450954\t473321\t可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場\n475100\t501583\t可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分\n502724\t529266\t好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎\n530727\t546893\t我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安\n548053\t566563\t這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考\n568784\t595716\t這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個\n596616\t610242\t比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說\n619415\t634956\t因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个\n637038\t653413\t紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個\n654514\t677600\t非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好\n678737\t704209\t魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近\n705029\t727899\t所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長\n部長好 部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然\n一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢\n跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把\n台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果\n要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期\n他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安\n這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央\n那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠\n跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件\n那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色\n跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後\n這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責\n根據我的報告 基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對 是你們不是 因為現在這個家科是剛在整地 剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科 中科 南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局\n是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的\n的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的\n看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個\n熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎\n我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場\n你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的\n就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的\n可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場\n可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分\n好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎\n我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安\n這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考\n這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個\n比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說\n因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个\n紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個\n非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好\n魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近\n所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.051 --> 00:06.413\n好謝謝主席我們有請洪部長\n\n00:12.731 --> 00:39.077\n部長好部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然\n\n00:42.598 --> 01:00.349\n一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢\n\n01:01.697 --> 01:27.667\n跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把\n\n01:29.028 --> 01:41.894\n台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果\n\n01:45.120 --> 02:06.365\n要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期\n\n02:07.125 --> 02:28.748\n他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安\n\n02:29.990 --> 02:46.702\n這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央\n\n02:47.583 --> 02:56.346\n那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠\n\n03:15.267 --> 03:22.821\n跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件\n\n03:23.806 --> 03:46.372\n那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色\n\n03:47.539 --> 04:12.761\n跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後\n\n04:15.530 --> 04:20.034\n這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責\n\n04:22.737 --> 04:46.225\n根據我的報告基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對是你們不是因為現在這個家科是剛在整地剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科中科南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局\n\n04:46.545 --> 04:57.594\n是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的\n\n05:16.209 --> 05:25.984\n的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的\n\n05:31.394 --> 05:49.420\n看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個\n\n06:01.364 --> 06:23.303\n熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎\n\n06:27.506 --> 06:45.323\n我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場\n\n06:52.290 --> 07:10.474\n你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的\n\n07:11.054 --> 07:29.613\n就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的\n\n07:30.954 --> 07:53.321\n可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場\n\n07:55.100 --> 08:21.583\n可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分\n\n08:22.724 --> 08:49.266\n好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎\n\n08:50.727 --> 09:06.893\n我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安\n\n09:08.053 --> 09:26.563\n這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考\n\n09:28.784 --> 09:55.716\n這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個\n\n09:56.616 --> 10:10.242\n比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說\n\n10:19.415 --> 10:34.956\n因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个\n\n10:37.038 --> 10:53.413\n紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個\n\n10:54.514 --> 11:17.600\n非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好\n\n11:18.737 --> 11:44.209\n魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近\n\n11:45.029 --> 12:07.899\n所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.051,"end":6.413,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長"},{"start":12.731,"end":39.077,"text":"部長好 部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然"},{"start":42.598,"end":60.349,"text":"一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢"},{"start":61.697,"end":87.667,"text":"跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把"},{"start":89.028,"end":101.894,"text":"台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果"},{"start":105.12,"end":126.365,"text":"要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期"},{"start":127.125,"end":148.748,"text":"他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安"},{"start":149.99,"end":166.702,"text":"這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央"},{"start":167.583,"end":176.346,"text":"那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠"},{"start":195.267,"end":202.821,"text":"跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件"},{"start":203.806,"end":226.372,"text":"那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色"},{"start":227.539,"end":252.761,"text":"跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後"},{"start":255.53,"end":260.034,"text":"這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責"},{"start":262.737,"end":286.225,"text":"根據我的報告 基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對 是你們不是 因為現在這個家科是剛在整地 剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科 中科 南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局"},{"start":286.545,"end":297.594,"text":"是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的"},{"start":316.209,"end":325.984,"text":"的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的"},{"start":331.394,"end":349.42,"text":"看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個"},{"start":361.364,"end":383.303,"text":"熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎"},{"start":387.506,"end":405.323,"text":"我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場"},{"start":412.29,"end":430.474,"text":"你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的"},{"start":431.054,"end":449.613,"text":"就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的"},{"start":450.954,"end":473.321,"text":"可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場"},{"start":475.1,"end":501.583,"text":"可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分"},{"start":502.724,"end":529.266,"text":"好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎"},{"start":530.727,"end":546.893,"text":"我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安"},{"start":548.053,"end":566.563,"text":"這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考"},{"start":568.784,"end":595.716,"text":"這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個"},{"start":596.616,"end":610.242,"text":"比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說"},{"start":619.415,"end":634.956,"text":"因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个"},{"start":637.038,"end":653.413,"text":"紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個"},{"start":654.514,"end":677.6,"text":"非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好"},{"start":678.737,"end":704.209,"text":"魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近"},{"start":705.029,"end":727.899,"text":"所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我要請教你關於工安的議題，因為最近台積電在嘉義的封測廠，它的施工發生了兩起重大的意外，造成一死一重傷，這樣的事件發生在我們護國神山台積電身上，大家都覺得有點不可思議，因為他是臺灣的驕傲，但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然連續發生兩起這麼重大的工安意外？當時我也有告知勞動部一定要去詳查事故發生的原因。第一個，我要問的是，請問現在對於事故發生的原因，你們進行勞檢，已經調查清楚了嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這兩個事件，在案發當時我們南區中心的檢查員就到現場了，基本上，委員現在提到的部分在法規裡面都有很清楚的規範，應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理。這兩個案件發生以後，我們在今天，就在這個時候，我們在園區工務所裡面召開會議，把台積電、管理局以及所有主承包商的負責人、主管都邀集起來召開檢討會議，現在會議正在進行。"],["王委員育敏：正在進行會議，所以檢討結果還沒出來。第一個，我要求這個檢討的結果要給本席跟委員會一份資料，因為畢竟這是指標性的個案，我們想要知道，如果連模範生的施工廠都出問題，真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡？","另外一個，我要請教，你剛剛有提到南科管理局，它在當中到底扮演什麼樣的角色？因為今天又傳出另外一起，它不只有工安意外，還有勞資糾紛，那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事，這是嘉義縣政府的事情。所以現在看起來，在科學園區，像以嘉義為例，嘉義科學園區發生事情，它有勞資糾紛、有工安意外，這些是不是隸屬不同的單位？工安是屬於職安，所以是中央負責；南科管理局說這有勞資糾紛，這不關我的事，是屬於嘉義縣政府，那請問今天這個會議，嘉義縣政府有列席嗎？它有出席嗎？它的角色是什麼？","從這個事件，我要探討的是三方的角色：中央、南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府，這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色？如果說橫向沒有一個聯繫機制的話，像這件事出問題，業務隸屬不同的單位，那各自知道各自負責的事情嗎？譬如說，都是同一個台積電嘉義廠的案子，它有勞資糾紛，中央勞動部知道嗎？你們會介入、會去關心嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，如果勞工因為相關勞工權益受損，他可以跟地方勞工行政機關提起勞資爭議的調解，如果只有調解，地方政府依照相關的法令會進行調解的一些協助，幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭；如果調解不成立，他可以提起訴訟，勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工，透過訴訟的途徑來求取他權益的補償。"],["王委員育敏：但是嘉義科學園區還有一個南科管理局，所以南科管理局在這件事情上沒有角色？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，調解的話，他可以就近到南科管理局進行勞資爭議的處理，也可以到嘉義縣政府，兩個地方都可以。"],["王委員育敏：但是南科管理局說他沒有角色，他今天在媒體上面公開講的，他沒有任何的角色可以介入，他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理，這是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，基本上勞檢授權的部分……"],["王委員育敏：南科管理局沒有角色，對不對？是你們嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：不是。跟委員報告，因為現在嘉科剛在整地，剛開始在開發，我們認為這個階段的興建工程是要由中央把關，所以這個部分還沒有授權，但是如果完工以後開始運作，就像竹科、中科及南科，基本上勞動檢查權會是管理局。"],["王委員育敏：是管理局負責的。但是施工階段，他們並沒有任何角色，而現在出現了重大的工安意外，我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討，既然科學園區是隸屬於南科管理局，基本上，他們從頭到尾都應該要有角色。因為整個案子的開發都是他們核准的，你們就只是負責工安的部分，既然他們從頭到尾負責，這個部分為什麼不要讓他們的角色一開始也都可以加進來呢？雙重的監督不是對於整個工安的監督會更有強化的效果嗎？因為他們在現地，你們南區中心是設置在高雄，你們還更遠，所以針對這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討，這種比較特殊性的、在科學園區的工地，看起來這些老闆很多，要怎麼樣做會比較順暢，是不是請部長可以回去檢討一下？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意來跟包括地方的勞政單位及科學園區的管理局，幾方之間的界面要做一些整合的檢討，我們願意來做這些事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求要檢討，檢討的結果再給本席。第二個，一樣是台積電，有關於台積電熊本廠的工安，你們2022年有去考察，你們考察之後有看到人家熊本廠是怎麼做的嗎？他們用紅色來標示是禁止，綠色是可以走的通道，黃色是放置器材，他們可視化的程度做得非常的好，一樣是台積電，這個是在日本的情況，人家第一現場的工安是這樣子做的，回到臺灣，你們有做嗎？你們有落實嗎？你們勞動部之前積極在推動的「安全可視化」做了多少？看起來就是沒有嘛！","所以可以看到一樣是台積電，他們在日本工地是這樣的設置模式，請問台積電的嘉義廠，現場同時多部的吊車在進行吊掛作業，你們去他們工地現場進行勞檢時，他們有這樣做嗎？有用紅、綠、黃標示的這麼清楚嗎？有這麼清晰的SOP在進行嗎？我想一定是沒有。在沒有的情況底下，當然日本廠沒有出現重大工安，臺灣廠同時在施工的就發生兩起重大工安事故，這個就是我之前一再質詢也一再提醒你們的，你們也認為可視化是一個很重要的管理方式，你們考察報告裡面還提到「安全可視化」低成本、高效益，就是這個的成效其實是非常好的，可以達到安全的效果，可視化低成本又高效益。","台積電熊本廠做得這麼好，這麼好的一個典範，但是你們2022年考察完之後回到臺灣到現在，為什麼在臺灣你們沒有辦法好好的來落實？就是讓我們的工地現場可以達到這樣的標準。你真的覺得……部長，聽說你也剛去韓國考察完，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：濟州島。"],["王委員育敏：濟州島。他們韓國的工安跟臺灣比起來，你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好？至少我個人去日本時，我只是路過看到他們路邊施工有在做的，你們知道嗎？他們對於工地周遭的交通維持跟安全維持的人員配置，就有好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮，他們為預防吊掛作業的墜落危害，拉出來的警戒空間範圍也很大，這就是人家日本在重視工安的部分，他們是從第一現場的SOP都做到位，讓整個的安全可以被維護住。","反觀臺灣，我們常常用趕工為理由，你知道嗎？我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有工程延宕，就是有挖出考古的文物導致停工之後，為了加快速度，但是趕工之餘就忘記了工安，我覺得這件事情不應該發生在台積電身上，因為他們是模範生。"],["洪部長申翰：很謝謝委員，日本確實他們在很多營建的工程裡都是有高於法規的作法在進行，我想我們也會參考日本的作法，來強化對於臺灣廠商的要求，的確在臺灣的營造業，我們認為在工安或環安衛的作法上是有很大可以改進的空間，所以我們現在也跟職安署很密切的在檢討我們目前在職安及環安衛相關的政策跟機制，我希望接下來可以提出一個比較大的機制上面的改革。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們要提出，因為現在就你們職業安全衛生設施規則的第九十二條第一項、第九十條及第九十一條的相關規定，譬如針對吊掛物，你們只有一個原則，就是起重機具應於運轉時採取防止吊掛物通過人員上方及人員進入吊掛物下方之設備或設施，就是一個原則性的宣示。但是你看看日本發展出來這樣一個紅、綠、黃的可視性顏色，就是各有各自的意義，在現場的SOP是非常清楚的，但是在我們臺灣就只是用一個宣示，要有相關的設備或設施，但是要什麼樣的設備跟設施也沒有規範。","所以，坦白講，你們到現場勞檢的時候，根本沒有一個非常明確的SOP可以執行勞檢，譬如在人員部分，你也沒有要求現場要什麼樣的人員來維護，只要有人在，1個人也是人、2個人也是人，就是你們並沒有更細膩的規範。我真的覺得這個可視化的作法並不會耗費非常多的成本，但是真的兩個圖一比較，你就知道日本為什麼工安可以做得好，魔鬼藏在細節裡啊！"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員育敏：他們可以做的這麼的細膩、這麼的清楚，不管今天有沒有聘外籍移工，當工人進到這個現場，我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域，綠色才是通道，黃色就是堆滿器材的地方，這個就是非常的直觀，你們也不用做非常多的教育，現場馬上就知道趨吉避凶，紅色就是不會去靠近。所以這一套我認為勞動部……部長既然說你們要好好研討，日本這個好的作法，從2022年已經考察到現在了，但是在臺灣卻都沒有實施，我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通，這個是保護他們也是保護工人，也是讓臺灣的工安更落實，這個是不花成本的，大家應該要全力的來推動，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，謝謝王育敏委員，謝謝部長。","接續請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}