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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:44:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:58:24+08:00","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162198","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162198","tool":"pyannote","id":"162198-pyannote"},"job_id":"JFqPi7VeBdKFtPNZ","queued_at":"2025-06-04 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0.946}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"疫\", \"start\": 408.046, \"end\": 408.106, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 408.106, \"end\": 408.126, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 408.126, \"end\": 408.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 408.146, \"end\": 408.166, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 408.166, \"end\": 408.266, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 408.266, \"end\": 408.286, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 408.286, \"end\": 408.306, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 410.327, \"end\": 429.619, \"text\": \"那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 410.327, \"end\": 411.108, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 411.108, \"end\": 411.228, \"score\": 0.902}, 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{\"start\": 430.399, \"end\": 444.691, \"text\": \"那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 430.399, \"end\": 430.539, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 430.539, \"end\": 430.659, \"score\": 0.559}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 430.659, \"end\": 431.04, \"score\": 0.569}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 431.04, \"end\": 431.16, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 431.16, \"end\": 431.68, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 431.68, \"end\": 431.7, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 431.7, \"end\": 431.8, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 431.8, \"end\": 432.621, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 432.621, \"end\": 432.841, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 432.841, \"end\": 433.221, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 596.254, \"end\": 596.434, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 596.434, \"end\": 596.574, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 596.574, \"end\": 596.714, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 596.714, \"end\": 596.814, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 596.814, \"end\": 597.215, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 597.215, \"end\": 597.835, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 597.835, \"end\": 597.955, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 597.955, \"end\": 598.215, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 598.215, \"end\": 598.375, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 598.375, \"end\": 598.736, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 598.736, \"end\": 598.896, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 598.896, \"end\": 599.676, \"score\": 0.814}, 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\"start\": 608.602, \"end\": 608.722, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 608.722, \"end\": 608.822, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 608.822, \"end\": 608.922, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 608.922, \"end\": 609.102, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 609.102, \"end\": 609.122, \"score\": 0.005}]}, {\"start\": 614.319, \"end\": 617.861, \"text\": \"現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 614.319, \"end\": 614.499, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 614.499, \"end\": 614.619, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 614.619, \"end\": 614.639, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 614.639, \"end\": 614.739, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 614.739, \"end\": 614.759, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", 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00:01:28,601\n認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間\n\n5\n00:01:39,588 --> 00:02:04,495\n的分間牆的位置變更掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡我們都沒有看到\n\n6\n00:02:05,457 --> 00:02:30,103\n跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說\n\n7\n00:02:30,774 --> 00:02:53,771\n涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後\n\n8\n00:02:54,192 --> 00:03:02,610\n我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣\n\n9\n00:03:03,871 --> 00:03:09,152\n但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有\n\n10\n00:03:32,337 --> 00:04:01,016\n我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的\n\n11\n00:04:03,117 --> 00:04:23,835\n但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎\n\n12\n00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:42,706\n不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦\n\n13\n00:04:47,233 --> 00:04:58,907\n原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢\n\n14\n00:04:59,673 --> 00:05:02,254\n對但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理\n\n15\n00:05:22,484 --> 00:05:23,845\n市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願\n\n16\n00:05:38,810 --> 00:06:01,218\n所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是\n\n17\n00:06:04,083 --> 00:06:07,626\n萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責\n\n18\n00:06:21,011 --> 00:06:48,306\n跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法\n\n19\n00:06:50,327 --> 00:07:09,619\n那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能\n\n20\n00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:24,691\n那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題\n\n21\n00:07:30,015 --> 00:07:35,077\n第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業\n\n22\n00:07:57,285 --> 00:08:01,286\n分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計\n\n23\n00:08:26,295 --> 00:08:48,766\n租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是\n\n24\n00:08:55,329 --> 00:09:13,463\n掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎三個業者找誰\n\n25\n00:09:20,068 --> 00:09:30,596\n就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行\n\n26\n00:09:44,907 --> 00:10:09,122\n我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是\n\n27\n00:10:14,319 --> 00:10:17,861\n現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請\n\n28\n00:10:36,511 --> 00:10:38,652\n所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們\n\n29\n00:10:57,263 --> 00:10:59,026\n署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容\n\n30\n00:11:15,505 --> 00:11:18,826\n十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是\n\n31\n00:11:31,944 --> 00:11:34,167\n最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高\n\n32\n00:11:49,722 --> 00:12:09,690\n度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全\n\n33\n00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:15,074\n我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的\n\n34\n00:12:30,146 --> 00:12:33,129\n的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個\n\n35\n00:12:47,177 --> 00:12:51,040\n時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度\n\n36\n00:13:07,788 --> 00:13:13,414\n的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望\n\n37\n00:13:27,495 --> 00:13:49,062\n署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6821\t12826\t謝主席有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規你知道嗎\n39862\t60164\t委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法\n61738\t64299\t25條的規定 室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制\n83338\t88601\t認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中 室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間\n99588\t124495\t的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到\n125457\t150103\t跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說\n150774\t173771\t涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後\n174192\t182610\t我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣\n183871\t189152\t但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有\n212337\t241016\t我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的\n243117\t263835\t但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎\n268730\t282706\t不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦\n287233\t298907\t原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢\n299673\t302254\t對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理\n322484\t323845\t市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願\n338810\t361218\t所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是\n364083\t367626\t萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責\n381011\t408306\t跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法\n410327\t429619\t那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能\n430399\t444691\t那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題\n450015\t455077\t第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業\n477285\t481286\t分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計\n506295\t528766\t租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是\n535329\t553463\t掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛 這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部 商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎 三個業者找誰\n560068\t570596\t就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行\n584907\t609122\t我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是\n614319\t617861\t現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請\n636511\t638652\t所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們\n657263\t659026\t署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容\n675505\t678826\t十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是\n691944\t694167\t最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高\n709722\t729690\t度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全\n730390\t735074\t我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的\n750146\t753129\t的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個\n767177\t771040\t時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度\n787788\t793414\t的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望\n807495\t829062\t署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好\n","txt":"謝主席有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規你知道嗎\n委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法\n25條的規定 室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制\n認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中 室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間\n的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到\n跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說\n涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後\n我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣\n但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有\n我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的\n但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎\n不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦\n原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢\n對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理\n市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願\n所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是\n萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責\n跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法\n那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能\n那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題\n第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業\n分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計\n租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是\n掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛 這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部 商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎 三個業者找誰\n就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行\n我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是\n現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請\n所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們\n署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容\n十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是\n最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高\n度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全\n我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的\n的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個\n時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度\n的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望\n署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.821 --> 00:12.826\n謝主席有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規你知道嗎\n\n00:39.862 --> 01:00.164\n委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法\n\n01:01.738 --> 01:04.299\n25條的規定室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制\n\n01:23.338 --> 01:28.601\n認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間\n\n01:39.588 --> 02:04.495\n的分間牆的位置變更掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡我們都沒有看到\n\n02:05.457 --> 02:30.103\n跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說\n\n02:30.774 --> 02:53.771\n涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後\n\n02:54.192 --> 03:02.610\n我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣\n\n03:03.871 --> 03:09.152\n但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有\n\n03:32.337 --> 04:01.016\n我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的\n\n04:03.117 --> 04:23.835\n但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎\n\n04:28.730 --> 04:42.706\n不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦\n\n04:47.233 --> 04:58.907\n原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢\n\n04:59.673 --> 05:02.254\n對但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理\n\n05:22.484 --> 05:23.845\n市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願\n\n05:38.810 --> 06:01.218\n所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是\n\n06:04.083 --> 06:07.626\n萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責\n\n06:21.011 --> 06:48.306\n跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法\n\n06:50.327 --> 07:09.619\n那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能\n\n07:10.399 --> 07:24.691\n那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題\n\n07:30.015 --> 07:35.077\n第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業\n\n07:57.285 --> 08:01.286\n分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計\n\n08:26.295 --> 08:48.766\n租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是\n\n08:55.329 --> 09:13.463\n掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎三個業者找誰\n\n09:20.068 --> 09:30.596\n就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行\n\n09:44.907 --> 10:09.122\n我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是\n\n10:14.319 --> 10:17.861\n現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請\n\n10:36.511 --> 10:38.652\n所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們\n\n10:57.263 --> 10:59.026\n署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容\n\n11:15.505 --> 11:18.826\n十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是\n\n11:31.944 --> 11:34.167\n最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高\n\n11:49.722 --> 12:09.690\n度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全\n\n12:10.390 --> 12:15.074\n我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的\n\n12:30.146 --> 12:33.129\n的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個\n\n12:47.177 --> 12:51.040\n時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度\n\n13:07.788 --> 13:13.414\n的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望\n\n13:27.495 --> 13:49.062\n署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.821,"end":12.826,"text":"謝主席有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規你知道嗎"},{"start":39.862,"end":60.164,"text":"委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法"},{"start":61.738,"end":64.299,"text":"25條的規定 室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制"},{"start":83.338,"end":88.601,"text":"認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中 室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間"},{"start":99.588,"end":124.495,"text":"的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到"},{"start":125.457,"end":150.103,"text":"跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說"},{"start":150.774,"end":173.771,"text":"涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後"},{"start":174.192,"end":182.61,"text":"我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣"},{"start":183.871,"end":189.152,"text":"但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有"},{"start":212.337,"end":241.016,"text":"我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的"},{"start":243.117,"end":263.835,"text":"但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎"},{"start":268.73,"end":282.706,"text":"不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦"},{"start":287.233,"end":298.907,"text":"原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢"},{"start":299.673,"end":302.254,"text":"對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理"},{"start":322.484,"end":323.845,"text":"市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願"},{"start":338.81,"end":361.218,"text":"所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是"},{"start":364.083,"end":367.626,"text":"萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責"},{"start":381.011,"end":408.306,"text":"跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法"},{"start":410.327,"end":429.619,"text":"那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能"},{"start":430.399,"end":444.691,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題"},{"start":450.015,"end":455.077,"text":"第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業"},{"start":477.285,"end":481.286,"text":"分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計"},{"start":506.295,"end":528.766,"text":"租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是"},{"start":535.329,"end":553.463,"text":"掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛 這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部 商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎 三個業者找誰"},{"start":560.068,"end":570.596,"text":"就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行"},{"start":584.907,"end":609.122,"text":"我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是"},{"start":614.319,"end":617.861,"text":"現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請"},{"start":636.511,"end":638.652,"text":"所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們"},{"start":657.263,"end":659.026,"text":"署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容"},{"start":675.505,"end":678.826,"text":"十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是"},{"start":691.944,"end":694.167,"text":"最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高"},{"start":709.722,"end":729.69,"text":"度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全"},{"start":730.39,"end":735.074,"text":"我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的"},{"start":750.146,"end":753.129,"text":"的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個"},{"start":767.177,"end":771.04,"text":"時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度"},{"start":787.788,"end":793.414,"text":"的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望"},{"start":807.495,"end":829.062,"text":"署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時44分）謝謝主席，有請我們國土署吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：署長好。請教署長，依照我們建築法第七十七條之二第四項的規定，授權訂定了什麼法規，你知道嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：委員指的是室裝管理辦法的修正嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：是建築物室內裝修管理辦法啦！我要問你知不知道？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：我想要請教一下，依據建築物室內裝修管理辦法第二十五條的規定「室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責。但建築物之分間牆位置變更、增加或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全時，應經開業建築師簽證負責。」，其中「建築物物之分間牆位置變更、增加或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全」的認定條件，國土署承諾於今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見，請問修正文字在哪裡？我們都沒有看到。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們在1月開會的時候，當時的確有希望各縣市政府、建築師公會全聯會還有室裝公會全聯會，他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見，截至目前為止，兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣。當然，因為母條文裡面，原來提的意思是如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話，有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分，而建築師認為本來就是應該由他們，但是室裝公會是認為在有些執行的部分，還是屬於室內裝修的項目，應該是由室裝公會來。所以現在兩個公會之間的爭執、歧見是比較大，我們蒐集他們文字以後，我們內部還在研議，然後儘量再找他們來，希望大家能達成一個共識，因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的建築物室內裝修簽證表要改成專業設計技術人員簽章表，目前的推動進度我們沒有看到嘛！所以要請問……"],["吳署長欣修：本來有一些……"],["麥委員玉珍：請教到底有沒有心要做這件事情？別人是怎麼樣的，要你們去整合嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！所以不能沒有……這件事情要去整合啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我們還是持續在推，因為兩個公會之間的看法的確是差距很大，但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工，因為建築師認為這可能涉及結構安全，還是應該由他們主政、由他們簽證，但是室內裝修公會是認為分間牆不一定會涉及，所以涉及到專業的認定，我想我們還是會跟兩個公會再來做協調，儘可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是依據室內裝修管理辦法第三十三條的立法精神為行政及專業分立，為加強行政的效率，各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全，內容由專業技術人員簽章負責。所以，請問署長，你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎？不能又說公會……"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，應該是這麼說啦，你要把它簡化的話，當然我們簡化的作業，我想原則上還是會跟地方政府去談。但是應該這麼說，簡易室內裝修的申辦，原則上還是要有所謂專業技術人員簽章才能再繼續推動，並不會只是直接線上申辦，其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦，而是程序還是不能減。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是現況是各個縣市政府對於簡易裝修的案件還是實施逐件審查，不是抽查，然後我們的業者為了求快速通過，通常就是委任建築師或者跑照公司辦理，市場申辦的費用最少就是6萬，最多數十萬，請問這樣子不是擾民嗎？如果這樣子的高費用，大大的影響我們小型住宅業主申辦的意願啦！所以署長，如何落實簡易裝修的立法精神？我們希望簡易裝修的申辦可以比照目前消防安全可透過線上申辦的方式，如果你沒有改變，因為簡易而已大家就沒有去申辦，我們希望簡易的合法化，但是你沒有簡易通過的機制，變成大家就是要花錢，你看多少人要去花這個錢，發生事情誰要負責？"],["吳署長欣修：因為所謂簡易的室裝，大概各縣市政府的定義也不太一樣，這會跟現在的建築物形式會有不同的差距，而且也會跟它營業的項目，或是屬於自住的部分會有差別。我知道有些縣市政府已經開始訂定，因為我們本來就是下授給地方政府各自去訂定他們所謂的簡易室裝的內容跟簡化辦法，這個部分如果要來談的話，我想我們來召集地方政府，然後是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府的規則提供給其他的縣市政府，大家一起來討論，看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟。至於線上申辦這件事，大概也會涉及到地方政府目前網站經營的量能啦，所以這個部分是不是我們也找地方政府來開會，希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的作法，是不是各縣市政府都統一來試辦看看，這樣或許對民眾來講會比較簡單。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為我時間的關係，第一個問你，你說是公會的問題；第二個問你，你就是說地方的問題……"],["吳署長欣修：因為這是授權地方政府去辦理。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛，如果什麼都是別人的話，你就不用當署長啦！","最後要問你，我們要找出源頭嘛！內政部與經濟部，根據產業界的反映，目前經濟部登記的「室內設計業」與「室內裝修業」分類不清，無法辨識是否具合法資格、是否受內政部規範，導致大量消費者誤信無證業者，進而引起更多的糾紛。所以我們要找出源頭，就是登記的時候，名稱與制度設計過於放寬，形成非法的承攬。依據我們的統計，住宅裝修糾紛每年破千件，經濟部長期未與內政部建立查核或者標準一致的機制，是否失職？所以是否有意願推動與內政部共同建立「登記管理與技術證照連動」制度，避免掛羊頭賣狗肉啦！所以我們才會來問你嘛，是找出源頭讓你知道這件事情。"],["吳署長欣修：因為屬於內政部的部分，確實只有室內裝修業，因為這個在經濟部商業司……我說明一下，這是經濟部的……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你看這邊，如果你要裝修要找哪一個？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，這是經濟部……"],["麥委員玉珍：你清楚嗎？三個業者你要找誰？"],["吳署長欣修：我們的部分就是室內裝修，依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容，這個就是屬於室內裝修業……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你的簽署就不一樣嘛！所以我們才要說……"],["吳署長欣修：這三個行業是在經濟部登記的，並不是在內政部，我們的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以剛才我就說找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議？如何監察得到？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們也有相關的辦法據以執行，我們本來就有相關的辦法據以執行。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為時間的關係……"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分確實就只能在這樣的規則之下，至於有一些不屬於室裝的範疇，當然他去從事其他的行業登記，就不屬於我們業管。主要也跟委員說明一下，室內裝修有很明確的定義範圍跟內容，所謂裝修內容符合的話就要申請，是這個意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在我就說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭，你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確，什麼都可以勾、可以用？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們的內容都是很明確的，我們的內容都非常明確。"],["麥委員玉珍：明確，但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個，希望……"],["吳署長欣修：因為可以做的內容非常多，但是有些必須要透過專業的申請審查，要專業的設計申請……"],["麥委員玉珍：那是審查，剛才你說公會，兩個公會是他們的事情，他們要怎麼樣是你們的事情……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為……"],["麥委員玉珍：第二項就說是別人的事情……"],["吳署長欣修：內容非常多……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以才說你們國土署的內容很多，跟經濟部、內政部共同處理，希望今年年底署長這邊可以完成室內設計相關的行業分類，就是報告……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實現在就很明確了，現在就非常明確了，只是它有些項目不屬於……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果很明確才不會發生那麼多問題……"],["吳署長欣修：有些項目不屬於室裝的內容。"],["麥委員玉珍：你要問10個人才知道裝修是找哪一個，所以這個部分沒有很明確，所以我們希望登記要有具體的表格。","我最後一個建議，室內設計不只是裝潢美學，牽涉的是公共安全、建築合法性與產業正義。這是一個擁有龐大從業人口、具高度專業技術性的行業，卻長期處於法制的邊緣，制度不健全、不分層級、不設門檻，導致優質設計師無法獲得應有的肯定，非法施工橫行無阻，因此危害人民的生命安全，我們看到內政部的承諾毫無進度……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們都已經有相關的辦法……"],["麥委員玉珍：我還沒有叫你講話，你先安靜。"],["吳署長欣修：我們現在就有相關的辦法，不是像委員所講的這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：經濟部放任登記混亂、行業混亂導致今天……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實行業沒有混亂……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望我們國家應尊重專業……"],["吳署長欣修：當然。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我希望我要求的你要做到，你再回應我，我要求的你都說別人……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這些行業其實都有很清楚的定義。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望相關的作業可以在3個月內提出時程規劃。還有經濟部，因為經濟部今天有來，應清理產業分類與登記範圍，配合內政部建立一致的執業登記與查核的標準。我們不能再讓一個成熟產業卡死在制度裡，希望各部會不要再推責與行政冷處理對待這個國家需要的改革，制度不改，產業就不會成長，社會安全也將繼續付出代價。","希望署長針對我提出的問題來解決，不要什麼都是別人，別人的孩子死不完，但你們自己的事情卻沒有做，我的要求是這樣……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們的部分非常明確，因為今天經濟部沒有在現場，所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們提出明確的報告，還有具體的進度表，這才是你要承諾大家的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，我們請內政部跟經濟部會後研議，好不好？","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}}