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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:25:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:35:34+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162207","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162207","tool":"pyannote","id":"162207-pyannote"},"job_id":"Xpv4acdfJh2ZLKdK","queued_at":"2025-06-04 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{\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 601.741, \"end\": 601.863, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 601.863, \"end\": 601.943, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 601.943, \"end\": 601.964, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,674 --> 00:00:26,295\n謝謝召委我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:29,094 --> 00:00:46,004\n原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系\n\n3\n00:00:46,724 --> 00:01:08,317\n而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住\n\n4\n00:01:08,997 --> 00:01:30,973\n所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家\n\n5\n00:01:32,234 --> 00:01:55,120\n為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕\n\n6\n00:01:56,727 --> 00:02:02,873\n署長組長還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下\n\n7\n00:02:09,544 --> 00:02:36,622\n主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%\n\n8\n00:02:39,604 --> 00:02:48,947\n包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市\n\n9\n00:03:00,911 --> 00:03:27,099\n土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限\n\n10\n00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:30,800\n好然後\n\n11\n00:04:00,018 --> 00:04:14,560\n我們請署長最好部長可以先休息感謝委員那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法\n\n12\n00:04:15,801 --> 00:04:23,585\n這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則\n\n13\n00:04:32,530 --> 00:04:51,518\n那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面\n\n14\n00:04:52,638 --> 00:05:11,653\n可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫\n\n15\n00:05:12,393 --> 00:05:27,054\n有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的\n\n16\n00:05:27,495 --> 00:05:41,746\n沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們\n\n17\n00:05:52,854 --> 00:06:09,662\n可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了謝謝劉部長有請\n\n18\n00:06:12,659 --> 00:06:26,955\n好部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程\n\n19\n00:06:29,338 --> 00:06:30,059\n新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的\n\n20\n00:06:49,341 --> 00:07:08,203\n他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍\n\n21\n00:07:09,324 --> 00:07:18,914\n第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉\n\n22\n00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:32,926\n有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長\n\n23\n00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,063\n這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法\n\n24\n00:08:16,295 --> 00:08:38,670\n並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧\n\n25\n00:08:43,047 --> 00:09:07,977\n報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭\n\n26\n00:09:08,757 --> 00:09:28,448\n它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考\n\n27\n00:09:29,449 --> 00:09:57,407\n然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎請問署長可以嗎好我們可以來處理好謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持謝謝\n\n28\n00:10:01,337 --> 00:10:01,964\n謝謝高清數美委員的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1674\t26295\t謝謝召委 我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長 園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下 但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下 謝謝\n29094\t46004\t原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系\n46724\t68317\t而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住\n68997\t90973\t所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家\n92234\t115120\t為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕\n116727\t122873\t署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下\n129544\t156622\t主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%\n159604\t168947\t包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市\n180911\t207099\t土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限\n210640\t210800\t好然後\n240018\t254560\t我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法\n255801\t263585\t這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則\n272530\t291518\t那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面\n292638\t311653\t可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫\n312393\t327054\t有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的\n327495\t341746\t沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們\n352854\t369662\t可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請\n372659\t386955\t好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程\n389338\t390059\t新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的\n409341\t428203\t他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍\n429324\t438914\t第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉\n444480\t452926\t有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長\n475000\t479063\t這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法\n496295\t518670\t並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧\n523047\t547977\t報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭\n548757\t568448\t它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考\n569449\t597407\t然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎好 我們可以來處理好 謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝\n601337\t601964\t謝謝高清數美委員的質詢\n","txt":"謝謝召委 我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長 園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下 但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下 謝謝\n原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系\n而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住\n所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家\n為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕\n署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下\n主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%\n包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市\n土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限\n好然後\n我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法\n這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則\n那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面\n可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫\n有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的\n沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們\n可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請\n好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程\n新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的\n他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍\n第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉\n有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長\n這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法\n並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧\n報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭\n它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考\n然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎好 我們可以來處理好 謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝\n謝謝高清數美委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.674 --> 00:26.295\n謝謝召委我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下謝謝\n\n00:29.094 --> 00:46.004\n原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系\n\n00:46.724 --> 01:08.317\n而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住\n\n01:08.997 --> 01:30.973\n所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家\n\n01:32.234 --> 01:55.120\n為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕\n\n01:56.727 --> 02:02.873\n署長組長還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下\n\n02:09.544 --> 02:36.622\n主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%\n\n02:39.604 --> 02:48.947\n包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市\n\n03:00.911 --> 03:27.099\n土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限\n\n03:30.640 --> 03:30.800\n好然後\n\n04:00.018 --> 04:14.560\n我們請署長最好部長可以先休息感謝委員那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法\n\n04:15.801 --> 04:23.585\n這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則\n\n04:32.530 --> 04:51.518\n那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面\n\n04:52.638 --> 05:11.653\n可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫\n\n05:12.393 --> 05:27.054\n有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的\n\n05:27.495 --> 05:41.746\n沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們\n\n05:52.854 --> 06:09.662\n可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了謝謝劉部長有請\n\n06:12.659 --> 06:26.955\n好部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程\n\n06:29.338 --> 06:30.059\n新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的\n\n06:49.341 --> 07:08.203\n他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍\n\n07:09.324 --> 07:18.914\n第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉\n\n07:24.480 --> 07:32.926\n有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長\n\n07:55.000 --> 07:59.063\n這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法\n\n08:16.295 --> 08:38.670\n並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧\n\n08:43.047 --> 09:07.977\n報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭\n\n09:08.757 --> 09:28.448\n它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考\n\n09:29.449 --> 09:57.407\n然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎請問署長可以嗎好我們可以來處理好謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持謝謝\n\n10:01.337 --> 10:01.964\n謝謝高清數美委員的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.674,"end":26.295,"text":"謝謝召委 我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長 園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下 但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下 謝謝"},{"start":29.094,"end":46.004,"text":"原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系"},{"start":46.724,"end":68.317,"text":"而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住"},{"start":68.997,"end":90.973,"text":"所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家"},{"start":92.234,"end":115.12,"text":"為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕"},{"start":116.727,"end":122.873,"text":"署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下"},{"start":129.544,"end":156.622,"text":"主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%"},{"start":159.604,"end":168.947,"text":"包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市"},{"start":180.911,"end":207.099,"text":"土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限"},{"start":210.64,"end":210.8,"text":"好然後"},{"start":240.018,"end":254.56,"text":"我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法"},{"start":255.801,"end":263.585,"text":"這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則"},{"start":272.53,"end":291.518,"text":"那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面"},{"start":292.638,"end":311.653,"text":"可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫"},{"start":312.393,"end":327.054,"text":"有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的"},{"start":327.495,"end":341.746,"text":"沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們"},{"start":352.854,"end":369.662,"text":"可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":372.659,"end":386.955,"text":"好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程"},{"start":389.338,"end":390.059,"text":"新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的"},{"start":409.341,"end":428.203,"text":"他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍"},{"start":429.324,"end":438.914,"text":"第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉"},{"start":444.48,"end":452.926,"text":"有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長"},{"start":475,"end":479.063,"text":"這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法"},{"start":496.295,"end":518.67,"text":"並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧"},{"start":523.047,"end":547.977,"text":"報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭"},{"start":548.757,"end":568.448,"text":"它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考"},{"start":569.449,"end":597.407,"text":"然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎好 我們可以來處理好 謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝"},{"start":601.337,"end":601.964,"text":"謝謝高清數美委員的質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時25分）謝謝召委，有請管理署署長，還有建築管理組組長、原民會公共建設處副處長。"],["主席：吳署長、原民會周副處長。"],["高金委員素梅：對，還有建築管理組陳組長。"],["主席：好，有請。"],["高金委員素梅：請部長先休息一下，但是希望你能夠仔細聆聽一下，謝謝。","原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了，我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情，早在國民政府來臺之前，我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住，還有我們自己的生活體系，而國民政府來臺灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法，還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規，以非原住民的生活方式，然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區，全然不顧上面早已經有人居住，所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地。如果以蘭嶼為例，全島大概有95%的土地跟建物都是不合法使用的，但是這些人早就已經在這裡世居好久了，也早已經建屋成家，為什麼會這樣呢？因為我們全島超過九成被亂劃為林業用地。當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的，現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建照，90%以上全部都遭拒絕。署長、組長還有我們的副處長，你們都知道這件事吧！我們請原民會先發表一下。"],["周副處長錫蔚：主席還有委員……"],["高金委員素梅：我講的對不對？"],["周副處長錫蔚：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，蘭嶼不是例外，這幾乎是原鄉普遍的現象。過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙、非常的武斷，這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子、不能夠登記、不能夠繼承，長年以來原住民土地的違建率高達90%，包括我們的鄉公所、代表處、教育的建築物全部都是違建，這不是我們族人的錯啊！這是制度設計壓迫的結果啊！目前我們原住民有55個原鄉、12個縣市，土地除了受到國土計畫法的規範，同時還受限於所謂的國家公園法、都市計畫、特定區域法等等二十多種的法規，層層的限制與重疊的衝突。中央法規沒有鬆綁，地方政府執行根本就是無所適從，這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住，卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限。我們本來期待原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠通盤的解決，可是非常的遺憾，這項規則草案卻因為國土計畫法的修正草案溝通不足，難以準時上路，我們的族人又要再等6年。請問部長，針對原鄉長期以來的困擾，現在有什麼具體的解決方案？請您簡單的說明。我們請署長就好，部長可以先休息。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。其實委員在去年國土計畫法討論的時候，委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區建築的一個合法做法，我想這部分在國土計畫也有在持續努力當中……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，現在已經延宕6年了，我們不能再等6年啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，但是我想相關的內容都有討論。我瞭解，所以就有關建築管理的部分，其實上次有跟委員報告過，建築法第九十九條本來就有一些簡化的原則，也經委員上次垂詢過，我們有正式做過調查，現在至少6個縣市有訂定關於原住民建築的部分。但是的確因為調查起來，有些原住民地區並不屬於偏遠，有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的，過去的做法是在都市計畫裡面，可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制規則，還有相關的建築規則。有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂，所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後，本來也請各縣市政府回去再研究看看，就有關原住民的部分，是有需要透過哪些？比如有些是都市計畫，有些是偏遠地區的建築規則要去訂，這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂，我們每年度都會來檢視，看看地方政府的作法。"],["高金委員素梅：好，署長您所說的正是我今天想要就教您的，沒錯，建築法第九十九條之一有明定規定，都市計畫法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物，可以予以簡化管理，並且授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法，然後報內政部核定。理論上是給族人一條活路，可是您剛剛講目前只有6個縣市有簡化的規範。請問一下，是不是我們可以明確要求各縣市應該要儘速訂定簡化的管理辦法？這已經是法律授權的，難道內政部完全都不做統籌，不給指導嗎？現在我要請部長上臺了，謝謝。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["高金委員素梅：好，部長，剛剛署長也說了，我們的問題已經非常清楚，所以是不是可以在這邊要求……縣市政府因為有法源依據，可不可以請內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來彙整之後，根據剛剛委員的要求，在建築的簡化管理上面提出地方自治怎麼樣簡化管理，會訂一個指導的綱要原則，請他們趕快來施行。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好。我請部長也留下。新竹縣和臺中市的作法，我認為是值得肯定的，他們是依照實際的情況，提出了2項放寬的重點：第一個，凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺，高度沒有超過3樓，而且是具傳統特色的建築，就可以納入合法的範圍；第二個，只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性，而且是非供居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物，例如竹屋、穀倉、瞭望臺、涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁。這些規範是地方政府根據在地文化跟現況所做的合理調整，但這些進展是非常零星片段的，還不足以形成系統性的解套方案，需要中央大力的支持。在去年3月20日的質詢，我也提醒過署長，這個事情是非常重要的，可是到現在一直沒有進展，所以我在這一次要再提出來，強烈要求內政部2件事情，好嗎？第一件事情就是內政部應該要儘速訂定通案指導原則，來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法，並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵；第二個，國土署裡面應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照，要提出一份最佳的實務彙編，讓各地方政府有所依循，然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範。請問部長還有署長，這2點要求應該不過分吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告高金委員，我想您的看法我們支持，也就是根據第九十九條之一，其實各縣市地方政府就原鄉有這樣需求的話，我們本來就應該幫忙，所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內，跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來，因為原住民族自己本身像剛您提到的竹屋、涼亭，它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求，而不是有公共安全上面顧慮的話，原則上我們會同意。那剛剛所提到臺中市政府或者是新竹縣，還有我瞭解好像苗栗縣有訂定，其實都是很好的參考，我想我們可以提供給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考，然後訂定一個指導性的原則。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好，我們今天的交流非常的棒，縱使國土計畫法延宕了6年，我們希望在這6年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題，我今天也有臨時提案，希望在一個月內，可以嗎？請問署長，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們可以來處理。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，所以今天的臨時提案，也希望你們能支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}}