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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:54:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:06:29+08:00","duration":720,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162210","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162210","tool":"pyannote","id":"162210-pyannote"},"job_id":"exesre8qnuEfVtsR","queued_at":"2025-06-04 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當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 572.338, \"end\": 572.658, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"替\", \"start\": 572.658, \"end\": 572.839, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 572.839, \"end\": 572.979, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 572.979, \"end\": 573.119, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 573.119, \"end\": 573.439, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"藝\"}, {\"word\": \"男\", \"start\": 573.439, \"end\": 573.679, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 573.679, \"end\": 573.779, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 573.779, \"end\": 573.92, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 573.92, \"end\": 574.1, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 574.1, \"end\": 574.3, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"替\", \"start\": 574.3, \"end\": 574.46, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 574.46, \"end\": 574.6, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"役\", \"start\": 574.6, \"end\": 575.221, \"score\": 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\"start\": 621.177, \"end\": 621.237, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 621.237, \"end\": 621.377, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 621.377, \"end\": 621.577, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 621.577, \"end\": 621.997, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 621.997, \"end\": 622.237, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 622.237, \"end\": 622.657, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"虛\"}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 622.657, \"end\": 622.877, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 622.877, \"end\": 623.038, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 623.038, \"end\": 623.158, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 623.158, \"end\": 623.238, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 623.238, \"end\": 623.418, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 623.418, \"end\": 623.638, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 623.638, \"end\": 623.778, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 623.778, \"end\": 624.298, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 624.298, \"end\": 624.398, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 624.398, \"end\": 624.498, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 624.498, \"end\": 624.678, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 624.678, \"end\": 624.858, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 624.858, \"end\": 625.119, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 625.119, \"end\": 625.359, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 625.359, \"end\": 625.379, \"score\": 0.998}]}, {\"start\": 625.999, \"end\": 629.002, \"text\": \"我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 625.999, \"end\": 626.159, \"score\": 0.477}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", 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\"對\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 627.461, \"end\": 627.481, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 627.481, \"end\": 627.501, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 627.501, \"end\": 627.581, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 627.581, \"end\": 627.601, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 627.601, \"end\": 627.621, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 627.621, \"end\": 627.681, \"score\": 0.447}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 627.681, \"end\": 627.701, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 627.701, \"end\": 627.821, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 627.821, \"end\": 627.841, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 627.841, \"end\": 627.861, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 627.861, \"end\": 627.921, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 627.921, \"end\": 627.941, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, 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\"end\": 713.279, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 713.279, \"end\": 713.44, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 713.44, \"end\": 713.62, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 713.62, \"end\": 713.88, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 713.88, \"end\": 714.46, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 714.46, \"end\": 714.64, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 714.64, \"end\": 715.18, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"轉\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 715.18, \"end\": 715.421, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 715.421, \"end\": 715.581, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 715.581, \"end\": 715.681, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 715.681, \"end\": 715.741, \"score\": 0.589}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 715.741, \"end\": 715.921, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 715.921, \"end\": 716.181, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 716.181, \"end\": 716.361, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"貞\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 716.361, \"end\": 716.381, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,493 --> 00:00:07,356\n謝主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路\n\n2\n00:00:27,132 --> 00:00:42,514\n經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換\n\n3\n00:00:43,075 --> 00:00:45,176\n他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個\n\n4\n00:00:59,964 --> 00:01:15,372\n要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條\n\n5\n00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:25,439\n報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛\n\n6\n00:01:37,664 --> 00:01:52,533\n那既然有349條那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍規模跟預估的成本都要多少請您具體說明\n\n7\n00:01:53,562 --> 00:02:11,076\n是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間\n\n8\n00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:19,163\n也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎\n\n9\n00:02:32,097 --> 00:02:41,784\n我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理\n\n10\n00:02:54,474 --> 00:03:09,413\n好那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛\n\n11\n00:03:09,733 --> 00:03:16,420\n所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化\n\n12\n00:03:26,531 --> 00:03:29,493\n我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬\n\n13\n00:03:44,943 --> 00:03:48,604\n改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行\n\n14\n00:04:09,969 --> 00:04:16,470\n所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改\n\n15\n00:04:38,874 --> 00:04:47,017\n但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本\n\n16\n00:05:05,424 --> 00:05:19,311\n大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調\n\n17\n00:05:21,018 --> 00:05:25,161\n好這是到6月4號為止就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對覺得浪費公帑好那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎哪有錢改入民\n\n18\n00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,941\n真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好你可以看到網友的心聲\n\n19\n00:06:01,460 --> 00:06:04,742\n那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好\n\n20\n00:06:22,475 --> 00:06:28,937\n那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府\n\n21\n00:06:43,061 --> 00:06:59,436\n所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個\n\n22\n00:07:06,802 --> 00:07:20,388\n這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴\n\n23\n00:07:32,473 --> 00:08:00,746\n開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名\n\n24\n00:08:01,653 --> 00:08:21,885\n報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說\n\n25\n00:08:22,685 --> 00:08:32,070\n好我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是五個部會一起好那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板\n\n26\n00:08:38,374 --> 00:09:04,615\n是我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例\n\n27\n00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:08,017\n是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎\n\n28\n00:09:32,338 --> 00:09:43,328\n他替代役的藝男但是外交替代役當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的\n\n29\n00:09:57,104 --> 00:10:25,379\n報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪\n\n30\n00:10:25,999 --> 00:10:29,002\n我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有\n\n31\n00:10:42,276 --> 00:11:01,209\n但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信\n\n32\n00:11:01,789 --> 00:11:12,756\n但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營\n\n33\n00:11:32,149 --> 00:11:56,381\n報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好謝謝徐議貞委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4493\t7356\t謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路\n27132\t42514\t經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換\n43075\t45176\t他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個\n59964\t75372\t要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條\n78876\t85439\t報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛\n97664\t112533\t那既然有349條 那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址 營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍 規模跟預估的成本都要多少 請您具體說明\n113562\t131076\t是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間\n137140\t139163\t也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎\n152097\t161784\t我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理\n174474\t189413\t好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛\n189733\t196420\t所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化\n206531\t209493\t我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬\n224943\t228604\t改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行\n249969\t256470\t所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改\n278874\t287017\t但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本\n305424\t319311\t大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調\n321018\t325161\t好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入民\n344156\t347941\t真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲\n361460\t364742\t那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好\n382475\t388937\t那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府\n403061\t419436\t所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個\n426802\t440388\t這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴\n452473\t480746\t開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名\n481653\t501885\t報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說\n502685\t512070\t好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板\n518374\t544615\t是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高 破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例\n546476\t548017\t是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎\n572338\t583328\t他替代役的藝男 但是外交替代役 當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對 那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的 也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下 當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的\n597104\t625379\t報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪\n625999\t629002\t我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有\n642276\t661209\t但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信\n661789\t672756\t但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營\n692149\t716381\t報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員\n","txt":"謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路\n經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換\n他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個\n要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條\n報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛\n那既然有349條 那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址 營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍 規模跟預估的成本都要多少 請您具體說明\n是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間\n也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎\n我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理\n好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛\n所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化\n我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬\n改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行\n所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改\n但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本\n大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調\n好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入民\n真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲\n那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好\n那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府\n所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個\n這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴\n開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名\n報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說\n好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板\n是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高 破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例\n是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎\n他替代役的藝男 但是外交替代役 當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對 那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的 也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下 當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的\n報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪\n我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有\n但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信\n但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營\n報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.493 --> 00:07.356\n謝主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路\n\n00:27.132 --> 00:42.514\n經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換\n\n00:43.075 --> 00:45.176\n他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個\n\n00:59.964 --> 01:15.372\n要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條\n\n01:18.876 --> 01:25.439\n報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛\n\n01:37.664 --> 01:52.533\n那既然有349條那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍規模跟預估的成本都要多少請您具體說明\n\n01:53.562 --> 02:11.076\n是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間\n\n02:17.140 --> 02:19.163\n也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎\n\n02:32.097 --> 02:41.784\n我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理\n\n02:54.474 --> 03:09.413\n好那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛\n\n03:09.733 --> 03:16.420\n所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化\n\n03:26.531 --> 03:29.493\n我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬\n\n03:44.943 --> 03:48.604\n改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行\n\n04:09.969 --> 04:16.470\n所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改\n\n04:38.874 --> 04:47.017\n但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本\n\n05:05.424 --> 05:19.311\n大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調\n\n05:21.018 --> 05:25.161\n好這是到6月4號為止就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對覺得浪費公帑好那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎哪有錢改入民\n\n05:44.156 --> 05:47.941\n真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好你可以看到網友的心聲\n\n06:01.460 --> 06:04.742\n那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好\n\n06:22.475 --> 06:28.937\n那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府\n\n06:43.061 --> 06:59.436\n所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個\n\n07:06.802 --> 07:20.388\n這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴\n\n07:32.473 --> 08:00.746\n開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名\n\n08:01.653 --> 08:21.885\n報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說\n\n08:22.685 --> 08:32.070\n好我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是五個部會一起好那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板\n\n08:38.374 --> 09:04.615\n是我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例\n\n09:06.476 --> 09:08.017\n是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎\n\n09:32.338 --> 09:43.328\n他替代役的藝男但是外交替代役當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的\n\n09:57.104 --> 10:25.379\n報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪\n\n10:25.999 --> 10:29.002\n我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有\n\n10:42.276 --> 11:01.209\n但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信\n\n11:01.789 --> 11:12.756\n但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營\n\n11:32.149 --> 11:56.381\n報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好謝謝徐議貞委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.493,"end":7.356,"text":"謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路"},{"start":27.132,"end":42.514,"text":"經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換"},{"start":43.075,"end":45.176,"text":"他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個"},{"start":59.964,"end":75.372,"text":"要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條"},{"start":78.876,"end":85.439,"text":"報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛"},{"start":97.664,"end":112.533,"text":"那既然有349條 那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址 營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍 規模跟預估的成本都要多少 請您具體說明"},{"start":113.562,"end":131.076,"text":"是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間"},{"start":137.14,"end":139.163,"text":"也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎"},{"start":152.097,"end":161.784,"text":"我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理"},{"start":174.474,"end":189.413,"text":"好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛"},{"start":189.733,"end":196.42,"text":"所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化"},{"start":206.531,"end":209.493,"text":"我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬"},{"start":224.943,"end":228.604,"text":"改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行"},{"start":249.969,"end":256.47,"text":"所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改"},{"start":278.874,"end":287.017,"text":"但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本"},{"start":305.424,"end":319.311,"text":"大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調"},{"start":321.018,"end":325.161,"text":"好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入民"},{"start":344.156,"end":347.941,"text":"真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲"},{"start":361.46,"end":364.742,"text":"那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好"},{"start":382.475,"end":388.937,"text":"那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府"},{"start":403.061,"end":419.436,"text":"所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個"},{"start":426.802,"end":440.388,"text":"這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴"},{"start":452.473,"end":480.746,"text":"開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名"},{"start":481.653,"end":501.885,"text":"報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說"},{"start":502.685,"end":512.07,"text":"好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板"},{"start":518.374,"end":544.615,"text":"是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高 破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例"},{"start":546.476,"end":548.017,"text":"是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎"},{"start":572.338,"end":583.328,"text":"他替代役的藝男 但是外交替代役 當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對 那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的 也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下 當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的"},{"start":597.104,"end":625.379,"text":"報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪"},{"start":625.999,"end":629.002,"text":"我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有"},{"start":642.276,"end":661.209,"text":"但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信"},{"start":661.789,"end":672.756,"text":"但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營"},{"start":692.149,"end":716.381,"text":"報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我想先請教您，近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示，各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱，像中正路、經國路、介壽路也不排除全面更名。但我要提醒部長，這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事，除牽扯到數以萬計的門牌更換之外，對於民眾來說，身分證要換，健保卡要換，連戶口名簿要換，甚至房屋權狀、土地權狀可能都要換，牽扯的層面很廣。對於公司來說，商業登記、營業執照等各項相關的都要換，有藥廠還告訴我，他們的製藥證照也要換。其他如地圖導航，郵務系統的更新等等。請問部長，您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路、經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，目前跟中正街路巷有關的是311條，介壽路是29條，經國街路巷是9條，總共349條。"],["許委員宇甄：這是你們在113年12月13號的書面報告所提出的。我想請教部長，這349條分別會影響多少戶籍、地址、營業登記跟建物門牌？還有，這項政策的實施範圍、規模跟預估的成本大概是多少？請具體說明。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝許委員。目前我們手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據，但我們都知道我們所處理的轉型正義、程序正義非常重要。所以我們才一再對外強調，中央政府跟地方政府要顧慮到兩點，包括從法定任務來處理的話，需要與社會溝通的時間。也就是說，讓大家能夠知道……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是內政部針對這部分並沒有先就相關資訊做整理，甚至沒有預估所可能花費的成本就開始推動，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們是依法推動，並非內政部無來由推動！而且這是促轉條例第十一條之二所規範，要求內政部跟各級政府機關應配合辦理。"],["許委員宇甄：雖是應配合辦理，但對內政部來說也要先了解在要求各級機關、縣市政府去做這樣一個動作時，其影響層面到底多廣？需要的成本是多少？如此才能要求縣市政府。為什麼現在縣市政府一片反彈？部長之前說，沒關係，如果不夠錢的話內政部來出，最後還說一案10萬。請問一案10萬有辦法做到這些事情嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這太過簡化。所謂的一案10萬塊是指目前民政司能夠處理的部分，譬如某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到……以前可以移到桃園大溪園區。在移除過程當中，所需要的……"],["許委員宇甄：所以剛剛部長講的10萬，是指移銅像的10萬？那改路名呢？"],["劉部長世芳：目前我們在討論。至於改路名部分，公務預算無法支出，但在……"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼公務預算無法支出？"],["劉部長世芳：您聽我說明。促轉條例有規定，在處理過程當中，如果需要動用國發會的促轉基金預算的話，內政部當然會協助地方政府執行……"],["許委員宇甄：所以錢不是問題是這個意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，所謂的錢不是問題，這樣講太簡化。其實是在處理過程中，如果涉及委員剛剛所提的戶籍……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛提到的可多了，不只戶籍問題，還有營業登記問題，建物門牌問題，甚至個人，比如你們沒有評估到的個人身分證、健保卡，所有個人的權狀、地契全部都要更改，還有公司……"],["劉部長世芳：但是在行政程序法上面，如果是因為公務機關要變動……"],["許委員宇甄：所以可以跟政府申請嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：您聽我說明。在變動過程當中可以兩種同時存在，然後慢慢隨著時間的遷移……"],["許委員宇甄：我大概算了一下，目前四都會影響38個行政區、41萬人，粗估成本大概要九千多萬，將近一億，這還不包含民間成本！為什麼這件事會引起那麼大的反彈？就是因為大家知道這件事情……請部長看一下最新的網路民調。到6月4號為止有7.8萬人……"],["劉部長世芳：這只是一種意見表達。"],["許委員宇甄：我可以讓你看看這7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼，有86%人是反對，覺得浪費公帑。你再看一下網友留言的意見，「政府不是在唉沒錢嗎？話都給你講就好」、「預算不是被砍了，還有錢改路名，真是說謊的爛政腐」……"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝委員……"],["許委員宇甄：再來就是「做這種事情浪費錢，也毫無意義，納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這些官員亂花的」，還有「真的是吃飽太閒，不是改路名，就是罷免，用的都是國家的錢」，你可以看到網友的心聲。剛剛部長就講說……"],["劉部長世芳：是，也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法，然後直接在批評說：這是五四三。但是我也要強調，因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的，並規範內政部就需要這樣處理，內政部的處理步調不夠快、不夠好，那是另外一回事，但是在價值的選擇以及依照自由民主憲政的處理方向……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我這邊有一個建議啦！我覺得你既然要做所謂的促轉條例……"],["劉部長世芳：如果不處理的話，也是一個怠惰的立場。"],["許委員宇甄：你覺得要去除威權的象徵，我給你一個建議，其實最大具威權的象徵就是現在的總統府，也就是以前日本的總督府，所以我覺得你應該要建議賴清德總統搬離總統府，來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵，要做就要做大一點，不要柿子挑軟的吃，只是在欺負我們的民眾。","另外，你還提到經國路也要改，事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生對於臺灣的貢獻很多，不管是他在擔任總統、行政院副院長跟經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設，或是他在1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任工研院院長，之後才創辦了台積電，也才有現在的護國神山，此外，蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁、黨禁、解除戒嚴，開放臺灣民主轉型。他有這麼多的貢獻，可是你們現在卻說，因為轉型正義、因為威權的關係，所以我們要改名，你有想過他這些對臺的偉大貢獻到現在大家都還津津樂道。","所以請問部長，民進黨為了轉型正義，可以如此抹煞蔣經國對臺灣的貢獻嗎？路名的存在是會影響選票，還是衝擊選情，不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改路名呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛有提過，這是大院所通過的促轉條例，我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的，出現在公共建築或場所中紀念、緬懷威權統治者的象徵，都應予以移除或改名。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，這個條例大家都知道，但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做，比如說，我們從詐騙來看好了，詐騙是內政部主管的吧？是內政部警政署主管的吧？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是五個部會，詐防條例是五個部會一起。"],["許委員宇甄：那內政部有沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的警政署在第一線處理有關防詐的部分，警政署非常辛苦。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問警政署是不是有個打詐儀錶板？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們沒有要對外隱瞞，所以每次只要有報案，我們就會po上去。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我們看一下打詐儀錶板，今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元，所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐，不是通報率的提高、破案率的上升，而是詐騙金額屢創新高。而且就在這個時候，我們看到內政部所管轄的替代役制度……"],["劉部長世芳：但是金額跟人數也在下降當中，也謝謝立法院通過防詐的四個條例。"],["許委員宇甄：金額和人數沒有下降，是一直在上升喔！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟委員報告一下……"],["許委員宇甄：表示我們詐騙的問題一直都沒有好好的處理。"],["劉部長世芳：我們應該一起努力，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你講有五個部門，現在我們來看一下，內政部所管轄的替代役制度也出現重大的醜聞，一名外交替代役男可以在服役期間主導暗網毒品的交易，涉案金額高達30億元。"],["劉部長世芳：他是外交替代役。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是屬於內政部嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：他是替代役的役男，但是是外交替代役，當時他是在外交部的聖露西亞……"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問是誰要管理？"],["劉部長世芳：都是由目的事業主管機關，申請的目的事業主管機關。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你是說這是外交部的問題，不是內政部的問題嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們會一起負責。"],["許委員宇甄：對，你們要一起負責嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以謝謝委員的指教，這是我們應該討論的，也需要有檢討的空間。"],["許委員宇甄：請問當時他的內控和背景審查是怎麼做的？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在做書面審查的時候，他不會提出他要犯罪，所以在書面審查的時候，他是臺大的高材生，當時沒有任何的犯罪紀錄。"],["許委員宇甄：那你們的內控呢？他可以做到30億金額的毒品交易，表示是很長的一段時間，顯示內控制度出現很大的問題……"],["劉部長世芳：是，在虛擬世界的犯罪裡面，確實非常難，我們也是臺灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界，我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪。"],["劉部長世芳：我沒有講境外，我是說虛擬。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得內政部必須要好好的去檢討相關的問題，不管是詐騙或是役男管理的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們會來檢討、會來改進。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是什麼時候呢？大概需要多久時間？因為這樣的話，我從上任以來到現在已經一年多了……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，詐騙的部分，大概有人類以來都會有，但是這需要我們很大的努力，尤其警政署在識讀方面其實是盡了最大的努力，包括推出打詐儀錶板，所以現在包括很多刑事、行政警察幾乎都投入，我們從歷年來、從這個法案通過，我一直感謝詐防條例……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我相信我們現在有做了一些改善，但是詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高，表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好、還沒有做到。"],["劉部長世芳：是，因為目前統計出來，還有一些子法沒有完全公告。"],["許委員宇甄：麻煩部長要好好的去針對這部分，不管是詐騙或役男的管理。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，為什麼今天會跟部長講這個？我最後要語重心長的跟部長講，如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話，還來談什麼人權轉型？是不是應該先把治安做好，我們再來談一下轉型正義？謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，轉型正義本來就是24小時需要去處理的人權問題，而且轉型正義是一種價值的選擇……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我們把百姓的人身安全先管理好，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：轉型正義絕對不是今天做、明天可以不做……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天在做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作，而真正該做的詐騙工作、防制工作都沒有做好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：這不是大部分民眾的想法，我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","我們休息3分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（許委員宇甄代）：請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}}