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\"start\": 990.34, \"end\": 990.36, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 990.36, \"end\": 990.38, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 990.38, \"end\": 990.4, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"麥\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 990.4, \"end\": 990.42, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,053 --> 00:00:18,095\n謝謝主席有請勞動部部長好\n\n2\n00:00:28,018 --> 00:00:48,625\n部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上\n\n3\n00:00:49,725 --> 00:01:09,320\n部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告\n\n4\n00:01:20,055 --> 00:01:28,088\n2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是\n\n5\n00:01:29,907 --> 00:01:50,729\n涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸照照就是\n\n6\n00:01:51,930 --> 00:02:08,967\n一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查\n\n7\n00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:31,960\n認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎\n\n8\n00:02:41,283 --> 00:03:02,639\n我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起\n\n9\n00:03:03,379 --> 00:03:18,811\n加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長\n\n10\n00:03:20,011 --> 00:03:38,635\n我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管\n\n11\n00:03:47,058 --> 00:04:03,332\n實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的\n\n12\n00:04:04,676 --> 00:04:14,099\n外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題\n\n13\n00:04:22,062 --> 00:04:25,606\n不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵\n\n14\n00:04:41,886 --> 00:05:03,656\n對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的\n\n15\n00:05:03,976 --> 00:05:21,394\n现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的\n\n16\n00:05:22,975 --> 00:05:41,835\n的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外\n\n17\n00:05:42,375 --> 00:05:51,200\n今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍\n\n18\n00:06:10,252 --> 00:06:12,494\n難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎\n\n19\n00:06:26,417 --> 00:06:44,405\n我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員\n\n20\n00:06:45,245 --> 00:07:01,098\n不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為\n\n21\n00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:21,245\n廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合\n\n22\n00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:43,275\n商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的\n\n23\n00:07:44,195 --> 00:07:53,837\n所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧\n\n24\n00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:32,431\n明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分\n\n25\n00:08:35,802 --> 00:08:59,513\n沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做\n\n26\n00:09:01,314 --> 00:09:14,987\n實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛\n\n27\n00:09:16,809 --> 00:09:39,780\n所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所\n\n28\n00:09:42,462 --> 00:09:49,108\n職業的安全還有主管單位就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部如何去合作確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部我從來沒有這樣說\n\n29\n00:10:03,462 --> 00:10:21,543\n我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情\n\n30\n00:10:22,421 --> 00:10:36,395\n所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉\n\n31\n00:10:38,777 --> 00:10:52,073\n他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是\n\n32\n00:10:57,018 --> 00:11:21,951\n這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業\n\n33\n00:11:23,012 --> 00:11:46,110\n服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生\n\n34\n00:11:49,332 --> 00:12:09,629\n如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以\n\n35\n00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:30,237\n在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有而且其實之前已經有開過會了\n\n36\n00:12:31,636 --> 00:12:41,501\n那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了\n\n37\n00:12:47,003 --> 00:13:14,736\n但是來家就沒多重要四人啊沒人要插這樣這麼丟叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴跟我陳述還有最後一個問題我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階\n\n38\n00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:28,905\n技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度\n\n39\n00:13:31,447 --> 00:13:53,448\n緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那\n\n40\n00:13:54,649 --> 00:14:11,727\n確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔\n\n41\n00:14:14,249 --> 00:14:39,088\n他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候\n\n42\n00:14:42,110 --> 00:15:07,897\n委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套\n\n43\n00:15:08,337 --> 00:15:23,118\n希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他\n\n44\n00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:39,623\n還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事\n\n45\n00:15:43,404 --> 00:15:48,449\n給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好\n\n46\n00:16:06,528 --> 00:16:30,420\n把人準備好啊部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是好謝謝部長好謝謝麥委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15053\t18095\t謝謝主席有請勞動部部長好\n28018\t48625\t部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上\n49725\t69320\t部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告\n80055\t88088\t2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是\n89907\t110729\t涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸照照就是\n111930\t128967\t一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查\n132790\t151960\t認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎\n161283\t182639\t我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起\n183379\t198811\t加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長\n200011\t218635\t我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管\n227058\t243332\t實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的\n244676\t254099\t外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題\n262062\t265606\t不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵\n281886\t303656\t對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的\n303976\t321394\t现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的\n322975\t341835\t的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外\n342375\t351200\t今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍\n370252\t372494\t難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎\n386417\t404405\t我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員\n405245\t421098\t不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為\n423960\t441245\t廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合\n442580\t463275\t商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的\n464195\t473837\t所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧\n491440\t512431\t明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分\n515802\t539513\t沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做\n541314\t554987\t實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛\n556809\t579780\t所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所\n582462\t589108\t職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說\n603462\t621543\t我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情\n622421\t636395\t所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉\n638777\t652073\t他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是\n657018\t681951\t這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業\n683012\t706110\t服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生\n709332\t729629\t如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以\n730389\t750237\t在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有 而且其實之前已經有開過會了\n751636\t761501\t那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了\n767003\t794736\t但是來家就沒多重 要四人啊 沒人要插這樣這麼丟 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階\n795916\t808905\t技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度\n811447\t833448\t緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那\n834649\t851727\t確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔\n854249\t879088\t他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候\n882110\t907897\t委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套\n908337\t923118\t希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他\n924159\t939623\t還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事\n943404\t948449\t給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好\n966528\t990420\t把人準備好啊 部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛 對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝麥委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請勞動部部長好\n部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上\n部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告\n2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是\n涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸照照就是\n一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查\n認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎\n我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起\n加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長\n我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管\n實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的\n外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題\n不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵\n對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的\n现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的\n的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外\n今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍\n難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎\n我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員\n不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為\n廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合\n商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的\n所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧\n明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分\n沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做\n實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛\n所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所\n職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說\n我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情\n所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉\n他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是\n這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業\n服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生\n如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以\n在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有 而且其實之前已經有開過會了\n那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了\n但是來家就沒多重 要四人啊 沒人要插這樣這麼丟 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階\n技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度\n緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那\n確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔\n他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候\n委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套\n希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他\n還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事\n給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好\n把人準備好啊 部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛 對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝麥委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.053 --> 00:18.095\n謝謝主席有請勞動部部長好\n\n00:28.018 --> 00:48.625\n部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上\n\n00:49.725 --> 01:09.320\n部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告\n\n01:20.055 --> 01:28.088\n2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是\n\n01:29.907 --> 01:50.729\n涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸照照就是\n\n01:51.930 --> 02:08.967\n一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查\n\n02:12.790 --> 02:31.960\n認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎\n\n02:41.283 --> 03:02.639\n我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起\n\n03:03.379 --> 03:18.811\n加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長\n\n03:20.011 --> 03:38.635\n我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管\n\n03:47.058 --> 04:03.332\n實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的\n\n04:04.676 --> 04:14.099\n外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題\n\n04:22.062 --> 04:25.606\n不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵\n\n04:41.886 --> 05:03.656\n對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的\n\n05:03.976 --> 05:21.394\n现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的\n\n05:22.975 --> 05:41.835\n的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外\n\n05:42.375 --> 05:51.200\n今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍\n\n06:10.252 --> 06:12.494\n難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎\n\n06:26.417 --> 06:44.405\n我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員\n\n06:45.245 --> 07:01.098\n不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為\n\n07:03.960 --> 07:21.245\n廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合\n\n07:22.580 --> 07:43.275\n商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的\n\n07:44.195 --> 07:53.837\n所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧\n\n08:11.440 --> 08:32.431\n明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分\n\n08:35.802 --> 08:59.513\n沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做\n\n09:01.314 --> 09:14.987\n實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛\n\n09:16.809 --> 09:39.780\n所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所\n\n09:42.462 --> 09:49.108\n職業的安全還有主管單位就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部如何去合作確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部我從來沒有這樣說\n\n10:03.462 --> 10:21.543\n我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情\n\n10:22.421 --> 10:36.395\n所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉\n\n10:38.777 --> 10:52.073\n他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是\n\n10:57.018 --> 11:21.951\n這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業\n\n11:23.012 --> 11:46.110\n服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生\n\n11:49.332 --> 12:09.629\n如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以\n\n12:10.389 --> 12:30.237\n在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有而且其實之前已經有開過會了\n\n12:31.636 --> 12:41.501\n那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了\n\n12:47.003 --> 13:14.736\n但是來家就沒多重要四人啊沒人要插這樣這麼丟叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴跟我陳述還有最後一個問題我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階\n\n13:15.916 --> 13:28.905\n技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度\n\n13:31.447 --> 13:53.448\n緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那\n\n13:54.649 --> 14:11.727\n確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔\n\n14:14.249 --> 14:39.088\n他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候\n\n14:42.110 --> 15:07.897\n委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套\n\n15:08.337 --> 15:23.118\n希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他\n\n15:24.159 --> 15:39.623\n還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事\n\n15:43.404 --> 15:48.449\n給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好\n\n16:06.528 --> 16:30.420\n把人準備好啊部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是好謝謝部長好謝謝麥委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.053,"end":18.095,"text":"謝謝主席有請勞動部部長好"},{"start":28.018,"end":48.625,"text":"部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上"},{"start":49.725,"end":69.32,"text":"部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告"},{"start":80.055,"end":88.088,"text":"2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是"},{"start":89.907,"end":110.729,"text":"涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸照照就是"},{"start":111.93,"end":128.967,"text":"一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查"},{"start":132.79,"end":151.96,"text":"認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎"},{"start":161.283,"end":182.639,"text":"我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起"},{"start":183.379,"end":198.811,"text":"加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長"},{"start":200.011,"end":218.635,"text":"我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管"},{"start":227.058,"end":243.332,"text":"實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的"},{"start":244.676,"end":254.099,"text":"外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題"},{"start":262.062,"end":265.606,"text":"不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵"},{"start":281.886,"end":303.656,"text":"對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的"},{"start":303.976,"end":321.394,"text":"现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的"},{"start":322.975,"end":341.835,"text":"的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外"},{"start":342.375,"end":351.2,"text":"今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍"},{"start":370.252,"end":372.494,"text":"難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎"},{"start":386.417,"end":404.405,"text":"我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員"},{"start":405.245,"end":421.098,"text":"不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為"},{"start":423.96,"end":441.245,"text":"廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合"},{"start":442.58,"end":463.275,"text":"商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的"},{"start":464.195,"end":473.837,"text":"所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧"},{"start":491.44,"end":512.431,"text":"明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分"},{"start":515.802,"end":539.513,"text":"沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做"},{"start":541.314,"end":554.987,"text":"實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛"},{"start":556.809,"end":579.78,"text":"所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所"},{"start":582.462,"end":589.108,"text":"職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說"},{"start":603.462,"end":621.543,"text":"我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情"},{"start":622.421,"end":636.395,"text":"所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉"},{"start":638.777,"end":652.073,"text":"他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是"},{"start":657.018,"end":681.951,"text":"這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業"},{"start":683.012,"end":706.11,"text":"服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生"},{"start":709.332,"end":729.629,"text":"如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以"},{"start":730.389,"end":750.237,"text":"在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有 而且其實之前已經有開過會了"},{"start":751.636,"end":761.501,"text":"那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了"},{"start":767.003,"end":794.736,"text":"但是來家就沒多重 要四人啊 沒人要插這樣這麼丟 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階"},{"start":795.916,"end":808.905,"text":"技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度"},{"start":811.447,"end":833.448,"text":"緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那"},{"start":834.649,"end":851.727,"text":"確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔"},{"start":854.249,"end":879.088,"text":"他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候"},{"start":882.11,"end":907.897,"text":"委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套"},{"start":908.337,"end":923.118,"text":"希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他"},{"start":924.159,"end":939.623,"text":"還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事"},{"start":943.404,"end":948.449,"text":"給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好"},{"start":966.528,"end":990.42,"text":"把人準備好啊 部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛 對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝麥委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":732,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。部長，上次總質詢的時候，我有針對外籍實習生和僑生打工的勞動權提出質詢，你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管，實習生是歸教育部管，但是事實上，部長有沒有清楚實習生和僑生都不是在談身分或學籍，而是討論他們在勞動現場的權益誰來保障，這份監察院的調查報告，部長，你有沒有看過？"],["洪部長申翰：對不起，我這邊看不太清楚，你說這是哪一個時候的報告？2023年，有，我知道。"],["麥委員玉珍：你知道，上面的案由明明白白地寫著涉及外籍學生受教權及實習與工讀之勞動安全，有深入瞭解之必要，來臺就讀產學專班的越南籍大學生，於實習與工讀的烘焙工廠中不幸遭到台車意外壓砸致死，讓離鄉背井來臺求學的外僑生就這樣子失去生命。這份報告指出監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查，認定這個廠商違反職業安全衛生設施規則暨職業安全衛生法規定，沒有設置足夠預防倒塌之必要措施，所以部長看到這裡，你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員說明，第一個事情，實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部，但如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分，其實我們過去也一直跟教育部、僑委會表達，我們很願意一起加入討論，甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方，我們也很願意協助。因為的確會有部分的實習，假如涉及到是工作型的話，就有需要符合的勞動法規部分，這部分的勞動法規……"],["麥委員玉珍：你是勞動部長，還是教育部長？"],["洪部長申翰：我當然是勞動部長。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！我問你勞動部的事情，我當然是問勞動相關，我才說是不是歸你管的，你一直推這是教育部管的，我問的是歸你管的部分，你要回答我歸你管的，不是回答……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要再次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在不是說他的身分或學籍，我說的是勞動、勞動，實習與工讀的時間是不是歸你管，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，實習這件事情是教育部主管的，但如果裡面有涉及到比方工作型的部分，它要符合的勞動法規，這個法規的規範是勞動部管的，可是實習這件事情的政策本身當然還是教育部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：外僑生來臺灣實習、打工是歸你管的，已經跟你講N次了，現在我問的是你管的範圍。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，打工和實習是不一樣的。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是問教育部管的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，打工……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為你是秀才，所以我要問秀才的問題，你要答秀才的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：什麼是……"],["麥委員玉珍：你要答秀才的問題，不要講天兵的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：什麼秀才？"],["麥委員玉珍：因為……"],["洪部長申翰：秀才是……"],["麥委員玉珍：網路上說你是秀才部長，我是天兵問不對題，但是我現在問的是秀才要講的議題，你不要講天兵的議題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有覺得你是天兵啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：你講的是天兵，你的事情我問你，你回答……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有覺得你是天兵。"],["麥委員玉珍：我不是問教育部的事情，我問的是你職責的問題，因為你的職責就是歸你管的，這個就是外籍實習生……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我還是要讓你知道，第一個，打工和實習是不同的。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個我們都知道，但是我問的是他們的權益……"],["洪部長申翰：打工當然是勞動部管的，但是實習這件事情的政策本身是教育部管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在所有的這些問題，我問的都不是他的身分，而是他工作的場合，所以我們認為這個權責是你的，結果你一直推給教育部，我今天說的是不幸離開的這個學生，他是在實習合作的工作場合勞動，而且監察院也會同勞動檢查，顯然監察院不認為這個是產學專班的學生，所以勞動部不能置身事外，今天不管他的身分是外籍學生或僑生、打工或實習，我們討論的是他現在確確實實在勞動現場，所以我們要討論的是你的職責，不要再去講規定。因為暴露在勞動風險之中，就是勞動部的勞動檢查範圍，這難道不是勞動部的責任嗎？我問的是你的責任範圍，你講你的責任範圍就好了，不要去講行政範圍，也不要講他的身分或學籍的問題，好嗎？時間有限。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你要讓我回答嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要跟委員說明，實習這件事情是教育部主責，但是如果有涉及比方工作型的實習……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你這樣子回答，我現在問你的是工作權……"],["洪部長申翰：他要遵守的……"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在要問的是他的工作、打工事實。"],["洪部長申翰：他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管，打工這件事情是勞動部，可是打工和實習是不一樣的，委員！"],["麥委員玉珍：不一樣？同樣的場合，你說不一樣，你來認定這是他實習的地方還是打工的地方，你認定啊！有沒有認定？"],["洪部長申翰：如果是打工的部分當然是由勞動部主管。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果是這樣子的話，實際上因為廠商有實習和工作兩種合約，但是廠商聘用這個外籍實習生工讀是兩個合約加起來，一個20個小時，兩個一週就是40小時。"],["洪部長申翰：對，這是打工、工讀的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：這是他們簽的約，但是上工的場合是一樣的，你認為不一樣，但是是一樣的，所以誰來負責？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分，其實在我們的就服法裡面有規定是20個小時，這20個小時工讀的部分，當然是勞動部來主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我知道是勞動部主管，所以我才問你，我不是問教育部，你要回答你的工作範圍，還有你的管轄範圍，你給他們什麼保障、什麼權利，你有沒有分清楚？你知不知道這是人命關天？我是問你的職責，不要再去講其他的，結婚要去戶政登記，生小孩也要去戶政登記，明明他生小孩就是去醫院，你一直講生小孩跟結婚在同一個地方，完全是不同的，我們在這邊要講得很清楚，我講的是你的職責，我希望你回答的是你的職責，因為外僑生聘僱的時候是簽兩個合約，但是他的工作場合誰分？沒有分清楚，所以我們認為這個層面要研議，以避免後續發生這樣子的事情，所以才要讓你回答……"],["洪部長申翰：對工作的場合或者是打工的場合發生的這些勞動相關爭議，這當然我們要來介入，如果需要的話，比如有人檢舉，我們要進場勞檢、檢查、裁罰，我想這部分勞動主管機關都會來做。實習的部分，如果他是工作型的實習，他有可能要遵守的勞動法規，這個勞動法規的規範或者是法規的主管，當然勞動部也有責任要來協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：本來就是你的責任，我才問你，不是你的責任，我來這裡問你幹嘛？所以實質上，這份報告指出，目前專科以上學生校外實習的權益就是缺乏這樣的保障，所以常見學生會在同一個工廠，學校外籍學生或者工讀是在同一個場合、同一個地方工作，所以我們覺得這樣子的工廠場所的職業安全，還有主管單位勞動部要如何積極與教育部合作，確保別人的孩子來這裡讀書是安全的，不是說這不是我的，所以我們要問的是這個問題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我從來沒有說這不干勞動部的事情，我從來沒有這樣說。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們要的是合作……"],["洪部長申翰：其實過去教育部在召開相關會議的時候，我們在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分，在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分，我們都願意協助，我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的，我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我現在要問你的事情，你要回答怎麼樣去合作，還有廠商要如何勞檢，因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題。"],["洪部長申翰：如果有個案，學生也好或外界也好，要提出檢舉，他有違反法規的話，我想我們的檢查單位都願意進場來協助檢視。"],["麥委員玉珍：我剛才問你的這個場合，就是他們實習跟工讀的在一樣的場合，你看得出來嗎？因為你現在就說看不出來嘛，對不對？"],["主席：來來來，麥委員，我看你這裡要釐清一個點，就是這個學生來臺灣是產學合作的，還是他另外又去打工的？那是不……"],["麥委員玉珍：一樣，這兩個都是在他們勞保的部分或者工作場合，現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清的，因為現在開放外籍生實習的就是服務業，他們工讀的也是服務業，所以變成各簽約20個小時，所以變成40個小時同樣的公司、同樣的場域、同樣的工作，是這樣子的，分不清，就變成廉價勞工。所以我們希望教育部跟勞動部如何做勞檢，來減少這樣子的事情發生……"],["洪部長申翰：如果這裡面有個案，有人提出檢舉，我們當然都願意進場來檢視，檢視他在工作過程裡面的相關性質……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們現在要求就是因為有人……"],["洪部長申翰：有沒有要求勞務上的付出。"],["麥委員玉珍：有人發生意外，我們才要去做的話就來不及了啦！我們希望勞動部是不是可以透過勞檢，讓這些業者不會有這樣子的情形，也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生，讓他們有保障，我們要求的是這個。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在我們跟教育部已經有一個相關的聯合查察機制，而且之前已經有開過會了，其實這部分我們有在進行中，所以我們很願意來協助教育部這方面。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果是這樣的話，可以給我一份更完整的報告，讓我們知道，因為別人的小孩到國外讀書，他已經每天在煩惱了，對不對？但是來這裡卻沒有保障，死了人，沒有人要理，這樣對嗎？還叫別人來這裡讀書，這是很多在國外的媽媽跟我申訴、跟我陳述的。","還有最後一個問題我要問一下，勞動部在3月底預告，要開放僑外生畢業後，可以從事六大類的中階技術工作，包含旅宿業、照護輔佐、倉儲管理，還有客運駕駛、隨車助理，也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術培訓課程，適度緩解飯店業的缺工，但是在5月7號又正式公告說，這些通通被刪除。部長，可以說明一下為什麼暫緩推行的原因？"],["洪部長申翰：好。跟委員說明，確實這六類當中有幾個，尤其是司機，確實外界有一些針對司機的疑慮，對於他語言的熟悉度或是對於一些，包括駕駛在路上的話，對於這些標示語言的熟悉狀況，我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套，主要是從安全的面向……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們交通部部長說沒問題，他說這個部分他已經準備好，是看你們這邊什麼樣的問題，因為交通部是沒有問題的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，就我知道，現在交通部其實也在檢討當中，看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套，主要是大家希望在安全上面有多一點的把關，主要是針對司機的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你在3月底說開放之前都沒有跟他們溝通嗎？各個部會都沒有溝通就宣告了，大家都準備好了，到5月份說我不要做了，可以這樣不負責任嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，3月的時候是預告，預告本來就是為了蒐集各界的意見，所以在蒐集各界意見的過程中，有人提到這樣的疑問，會請行政部門再做確認，所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題提配套，針對如果要開放僑外生成為中階技術工、成為司機的話，相關的配套希望能夠再多加精進，來化解大家的疑慮，主要是這樣。當時其實就是預告，預告本來就是蒐集大家的意見。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，很好，但是不只是交通部，其他部會也有要和你開放的相關行業嘛……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你就不能說，因為針對交通部，你就是要喊卡，因為交通部他們也是說可以，其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施，這樣對大家也有幫助，不能說你公告後，5月份就正式刪除，所以針對今天的問題，我希望部長給我書面……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分我們準備好還是會讓它上路。"],["麥委員玉珍：這兩件事給我一個完整的書面讓我們知道，對我們在國際上的名聲……因為人命關天，這個部分我們不能踢來踢去，該負責的、該做的我們要做；還有很多的業者看到要開放了，大家都很高興，也都準備好了。別人準備好了，部長還沒準備好。政府說要做，就要準備好，我們對政府才有信任，對不對？不能說已經公布，我們大家還沒有做好，到最後我們人民都準備好了，政府才說我還沒有準備好，這樣子不行。所以希望這兩個給我更完整的書面回應，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。好。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員，謝謝部長。","麥委員，這個學生的case有勞保的撫卹什麼的，都有吧？"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊，所以勞保就要問他啊！"],["主席：有沒有？有沒有啦？有沒有收到啦？他們有沒有收到死亡撫卹什麼的，都有吧？"],["麥委員玉珍：這部分有的人是完全有，有的就是說他領一年，在第二年就沒消息，沒有人幫忙他，我們收到的資料是因為勞動補助就是喪葬費，還有家屬請領的部分也沒有後續，因為每年都要審查，在國外要領的話是……"],["主席：好啦，部長，你派人跟他溝通一下啦。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個我希望就是……因為每一個人繳的勞保都一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我會請同仁跟你聯繫……"],["主席：圓滿的解決啦這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：賴惠員，賴惠員，賴惠員委員不在。","鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","林德福改成書面質詢。","請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}