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103.799, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 103.799, \"end\": 104.0, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 104.0, \"end\": 104.18, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 104.18, \"end\": 104.42, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 104.42, \"end\": 104.64, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 104.64, \"end\": 104.8, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 104.8, \"end\": 105.12, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 105.12, \"end\": 106.862, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 106.862, \"end\": 107.022, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 107.022, \"end\": 107.202, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 107.202, \"end\": 107.362, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 107.362, \"end\": 107.562, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 107.562, \"end\": 107.682, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 107.682, \"end\": 107.963, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 107.963, \"end\": 108.103, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 108.103, \"end\": 108.283, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 108.283, \"end\": 108.483, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 108.483, \"end\": 108.683, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 108.683, \"end\": 108.883, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.883, \"end\": 109.064, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 109.064, \"end\": 109.284, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 109.284, \"end\": 109.444, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 109.444, \"end\": 109.584, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 109.584, \"end\": 109.824, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 109.824, \"end\": 110.044, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 110.044, \"end\": 110.285, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 110.285, \"end\": 110.305, \"score\": 0.981}]}, {\"start\": 111.005, \"end\": 133.379, \"text\": \"那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 111.005, \"end\": 111.145, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 111.145, \"end\": 111.225, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 111.225, \"end\": 111.425, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 111.425, \"end\": 111.565, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 111.565, \"end\": 112.246, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 112.246, \"end\": 112.426, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 112.426, \"end\": 113.387, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 113.387, \"end\": 114.347, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 114.347, \"end\": 114.447, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 114.447, \"end\": 114.667, 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\"多\", \"start\": 126.395, \"end\": 127.396, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 127.396, \"end\": 127.876, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 127.876, \"end\": 128.036, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 128.036, \"end\": 128.216, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 128.216, \"end\": 128.356, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 128.356, \"end\": 128.576, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 128.576, \"end\": 129.957, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 129.957, \"end\": 130.718, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 130.718, \"end\": 131.138, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 131.138, \"end\": 131.378, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 131.378, \"end\": 131.838, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 131.838, \"end\": 132.419, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 132.419, \"end\": 132.659, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 132.659, \"end\": 132.839, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 132.839, \"end\": 133.139, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 133.139, \"end\": 133.359, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 133.359, \"end\": 133.379, \"score\": 0.991}]}, {\"start\": 134.656, \"end\": 150.831, \"text\": \"比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 134.656, \"end\": 135.197, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"傾\"}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 135.197, \"end\": 135.397, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 135.397, \"end\": 135.517, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 135.517, \"end\": 135.717, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 135.717, \"end\": 136.738, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 136.738, \"end\": 136.858, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 136.858, \"end\": 137.338, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 137.338, \"end\": 137.459, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 137.459, \"end\": 137.659, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 137.659, \"end\": 138.119, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 138.119, \"end\": 139.28, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 139.28, \"end\": 139.38, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 139.38, \"end\": 139.701, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 139.701, \"end\": 139.841, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 139.841, \"end\": 140.161, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 140.161, \"end\": 140.521, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 140.521, \"end\": 140.762, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 140.762, \"end\": 141.903, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 141.903, 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459.366, \"text\": \"基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 450.114, \"end\": 450.214, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 450.214, \"end\": 450.354, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 450.354, \"end\": 450.515, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 450.515, \"end\": 450.835, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 450.835, \"end\": 451.556, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 451.556, \"end\": 451.776, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 451.776, \"end\": 451.917, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 451.917, \"end\": 452.057, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 452.057, \"end\": 453.218, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 453.218, 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\"當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 502.436, \"end\": 502.737, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 502.737, \"end\": 503.077, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 503.077, \"end\": 503.457, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 503.457, \"end\": 503.718, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 503.718, \"end\": 503.838, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 503.838, \"end\": 504.579, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"顯\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 504.579, \"end\": 504.719, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 504.719, \"end\": 504.879, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 504.879, \"end\": 505.48, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 505.48, \"end\": 505.78, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": 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\"start\": 513.589, \"end\": 514.29, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 514.29, \"end\": 514.61, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 514.61, \"end\": 514.81, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 514.81, \"end\": 514.991, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 514.991, \"end\": 515.992, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 515.992, \"end\": 516.152, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 516.152, \"end\": 516.692, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 516.692, \"end\": 517.093, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"嬰\"}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 517.093, \"end\": 517.293, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 517.293, \"end\": 517.493, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 517.493, \"end\": 517.734, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 517.734, \"end\": 518.014, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"津\", \"start\": 518.014, \"end\": 519.095, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 519.095, \"end\": 519.676, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 519.676, \"end\": 519.956, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 519.956, \"end\": 520.096, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 520.096, \"end\": 520.377, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 520.377, \"end\": 520.557, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 520.557, \"end\": 520.757, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 520.757, \"end\": 520.777, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}]}, {\"start\": 521.798, \"end\": 538.319, \"text\": \"所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 521.798, \"end\": 521.898, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 521.898, \"end\": 522.279, 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531.71, \"end\": 532.551, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 532.551, \"end\": 532.732, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 532.732, \"end\": 532.892, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 532.892, \"end\": 533.433, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 533.433, \"end\": 533.693, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 533.693, \"end\": 534.434, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 534.434, \"end\": 534.534, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 534.534, \"end\": 534.594, \"score\": 0.609}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 534.594, \"end\": 534.854, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 534.854, \"end\": 535.115, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 535.115, \"end\": 535.335, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 535.335, \"end\": 535.575, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"析\", \"start\": 535.575, \"end\": 536.076, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 536.076, \"end\": 536.236, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 536.236, \"end\": 536.376, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 536.376, \"end\": 536.677, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"弊\", \"start\": 536.677, \"end\": 537.478, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 537.478, \"end\": 537.658, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 537.658, \"end\": 537.838, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 537.838, \"end\": 537.978, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 537.978, \"end\": 538.198, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 538.198, \"end\": 538.299, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 538.299, \"end\": 538.319, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}]}, {\"start\": 539.54, \"end\": 563.748, \"text\": \"如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 539.54, \"end\": 539.72, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 539.72, \"end\": 539.88, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 539.88, \"end\": 540.12, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 540.12, \"end\": 540.28, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 540.28, \"end\": 540.64, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 540.64, \"end\": 540.76, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 540.76, \"end\": 540.92, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"薪\", \"start\": 540.92, \"end\": 541.161, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 541.161, \"end\": 541.321, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 541.321, \"end\": 541.621, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 541.621, \"end\": 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766.47, \"end\": 766.65, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 766.65, \"end\": 766.77, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 766.77, \"end\": 766.93, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 766.93, \"end\": 767.19, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 767.19, \"end\": 767.67, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 767.67, \"end\": 767.83, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 767.83, \"end\": 767.99, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 767.99, \"end\": 768.15, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 768.15, \"end\": 768.991, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 768.991, \"end\": 769.171, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 769.171, \"end\": 769.291, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 769.291, \"end\": 769.311, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}]}, {\"start\": 770.191, \"end\": 792.823, \"text\": \"退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 770.191, \"end\": 770.331, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 770.331, \"end\": 770.591, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 770.591, \"end\": 770.731, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 770.731, \"end\": 770.911, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 770.911, \"end\": 771.052, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 771.052, \"end\": 771.212, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 771.212, \"end\": 771.452, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 771.452, \"end\": 772.192, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 772.192, \"end\": 772.312, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 772.312, \"end\": 772.392, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 772.392, \"end\": 772.592, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 776.554, \"end\": 776.715, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 776.715, \"end\": 776.875, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 776.875, \"end\": 776.955, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 776.955, \"end\": 777.135, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 777.135, \"end\": 777.835, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 777.835, \"end\": 777.995, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 777.995, \"end\": 778.235, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 778.235, \"end\": 778.455, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 778.455, \"end\": 778.616, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 778.616, \"end\": 778.796, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 778.796, \"end\": 779.916, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"套\", \"start\": 779.916, \"end\": 780.116, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"不\", 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{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 784.419, \"end\": 784.879, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 784.879, \"end\": 785.059, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 785.059, \"end\": 785.199, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 785.199, \"end\": 785.459, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 785.459, \"end\": 785.699, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 785.699, \"end\": 785.859, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 785.859, \"end\": 786.06, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 786.06, \"end\": 786.2, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 786.2, \"end\": 786.44, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 786.44, \"end\": 787.2, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 787.2, \"end\": 787.32, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 787.32, \"end\": 787.62, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 787.62, \"end\": 787.781, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 787.781, \"end\": 787.921, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 787.921, \"end\": 788.921, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 788.921, \"end\": 789.041, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 789.041, \"end\": 789.201, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 789.201, \"end\": 789.301, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 789.301, \"end\": 789.902, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 789.902, \"end\": 790.042, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 790.042, \"end\": 790.222, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 790.222, \"end\": 790.362, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 790.362, \"end\": 790.822, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 790.822, \"end\": 791.082, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 791.082, \"end\": 791.282, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 791.282, \"end\": 791.422, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 791.422, \"end\": 791.543, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 791.543, \"end\": 791.883, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"套\", \"start\": 791.883, \"end\": 792.143, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 792.143, \"end\": 792.683, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 792.683, \"end\": 792.803, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"頁\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 792.803, \"end\": 792.823, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 794.364, \"end\": 818.246, \"text\": \"在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 794.364, \"end\": 795.465, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 795.465, \"end\": 795.645, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 795.645, \"end\": 795.845, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 795.845, \"end\": 796.366, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 796.366, \"end\": 796.566, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 796.566, \"end\": 797.127, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 797.127, \"end\": 797.327, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 797.327, \"end\": 797.587, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 797.587, \"end\": 797.787, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 797.787, \"end\": 798.248, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 798.248, \"end\": 798.328, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 798.328, \"end\": 798.388, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 798.388, \"end\": 798.788, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 798.788, \"end\": 798.988, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 798.988, \"end\": 799.128, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 799.128, \"end\": 799.208, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 799.208, \"end\": 799.349, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 799.349, \"end\": 799.889, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 799.889, \"end\": 800.049, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 800.049, \"end\": 800.229, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 800.229, \"end\": 800.81, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 800.81, \"end\": 801.19, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 801.19, \"end\": 801.631, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 801.631, \"end\": 801.871, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 801.871, \"end\": 802.051, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 802.051, \"end\": 802.291, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 802.291, \"end\": 804.834, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 804.834, \"end\": 805.054, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 805.054, \"end\": 805.134, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 805.134, \"end\": 805.214, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 805.214, \"end\": 805.394, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 805.394, \"end\": 805.554, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 805.554, \"end\": 806.035, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 806.035, \"end\": 806.135, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 806.135, \"end\": 806.475, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 806.475, \"end\": 806.835, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 806.835, \"end\": 806.995, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"右\", \"start\": 806.995, \"end\": 807.416, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 807.416, \"end\": 807.696, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 807.696, \"end\": 808.056, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"套\", \"start\": 808.056, \"end\": 808.237, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 808.237, \"end\": 808.357, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 808.357, \"end\": 808.517, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 808.517, \"end\": 808.677, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 808.677, \"end\": 809.578, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 809.578, \"end\": 809.738, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 809.738, \"end\": 809.878, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 809.878, \"end\": 809.978, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 809.978, \"end\": 809.998, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 809.998, \"end\": 810.198, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 810.198, \"end\": 810.439, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 810.439, \"end\": 810.599, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 810.599, \"end\": 811.199, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 811.199, \"end\": 811.379, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 811.379, \"end\": 811.56, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 811.56, \"end\": 811.74, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 811.74, \"end\": 812.58, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 812.58, \"end\": 813.021, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 813.021, \"end\": 813.641, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 813.641, \"end\": 813.822, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 813.822, \"end\": 814.362, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", 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\"這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員我們醫生\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 819.206, \"end\": 819.627, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 819.627, \"end\": 819.747, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 819.747, \"end\": 819.867, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 819.867, \"end\": 820.007, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 820.007, \"end\": 820.167, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 820.167, \"end\": 820.768, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 820.768, \"end\": 820.868, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 820.868, \"end\": 820.908, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 820.908, \"end\": 821.128, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 821.128, \"end\": 821.368, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 821.368, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 839.742, \"end\": 839.762, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 839.762, \"end\": 839.943, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 839.943, \"end\": 840.063, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 840.063, \"end\": 840.383, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 840.383, \"end\": 841.123, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 841.123, \"end\": 841.424, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 841.424, \"end\": 841.444, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,911 --> 00:00:11,860\n好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長\n\n2\n00:00:22,957 --> 00:00:45,231\n謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰\n\n3\n00:00:46,272 --> 00:01:06,613\n那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論\n\n4\n00:01:08,715 --> 00:01:22,083\n那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法\n\n5\n00:01:25,885 --> 00:01:50,305\n那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感\n\n6\n00:01:51,005 --> 00:02:13,379\n那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向\n\n7\n00:02:14,656 --> 00:02:30,831\n比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法\n\n8\n00:02:31,391 --> 00:02:45,737\n那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的\n\n9\n00:02:46,957 --> 00:03:14,355\n政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果\n\n10\n00:03:14,835 --> 00:03:36,562\n另外就是催收保費可能我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外\n\n11\n00:03:37,182 --> 00:03:58,519\n那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法\n\n12\n00:04:00,922 --> 00:04:20,972\n謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度\n\n13\n00:04:22,853 --> 00:04:40,846\n但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他\n\n14\n00:04:42,527 --> 00:05:02,258\n其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子\n\n15\n00:05:02,418 --> 00:05:29,556\n好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個\n\n16\n00:05:30,937 --> 00:05:59,650\n整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議\n\n17\n00:06:00,530 --> 00:06:19,545\n其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900\n\n18\n00:06:24,088 --> 00:06:43,047\n可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實\n\n19\n00:06:44,348 --> 00:07:06,493\n這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距\n\n20\n00:07:07,333 --> 00:07:29,353\n那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是\n\n21\n00:07:30,114 --> 00:07:39,366\n基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的\n\n22\n00:07:41,175 --> 00:08:04,352\n那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個\n\n23\n00:08:05,012 --> 00:08:21,515\n那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它\n\n24\n00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:40,777\n當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會\n\n25\n00:08:41,798 --> 00:08:58,319\n所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說\n\n26\n00:08:59,540 --> 00:09:23,748\n如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個\n\n27\n00:09:26,229 --> 00:09:53,066\n相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出\n\n28\n00:09:53,826 --> 00:10:19,925\n那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限\n\n29\n00:10:20,906 --> 00:10:37,748\n來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估\n\n30\n00:10:39,089 --> 00:11:05,998\n那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法\n\n31\n00:11:08,059 --> 00:11:31,367\n我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分\n\n32\n00:11:31,927 --> 00:12:01,167\n第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題\n\n33\n00:12:02,167 --> 00:12:20,921\n所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃\n\n34\n00:12:23,303 --> 00:12:49,311\n部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢\n\n35\n00:12:50,191 --> 00:13:12,823\n退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面\n\n36\n00:13:14,364 --> 00:13:38,246\n在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能\n\n37\n00:13:39,206 --> 00:14:01,444\n這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好那就麻煩部長好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝王委員我們醫生\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8911\t11860\t好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長\n22957\t45231\t謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰\n46272\t66613\t那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論\n68715\t82083\t那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法\n85885\t110305\t那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感\n111005\t133379\t那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向\n134656\t150831\t比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法\n151391\t165737\t那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的\n166957\t194355\t政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果\n194835\t216562\t另外就是催收保費可能我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候 退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外\n217182\t238519\t那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法\n240922\t260972\t謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度\n262853\t280846\t但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他\n282527\t302258\t其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子\n302418\t329556\t好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個\n330937\t359650\t整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議\n360530\t379545\t其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900\n384088\t403047\t可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實\n404348\t426493\t這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距\n427333\t449353\t那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是\n450114\t459366\t基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的\n461175\t484352\t那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個\n485012\t501515\t那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它\n502436\t520777\t當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會\n521798\t538319\t所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說\n539540\t563748\t如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個\n566229\t593066\t相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出\n593826\t619925\t那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限\n620906\t637748\t來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估\n639089\t665998\t那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法\n668059\t691367\t我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分\n691927\t721167\t第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題\n722167\t740921\t所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃\n743303\t769311\t部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢\n770191\t792823\t退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面\n794364\t818246\t在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能\n819206\t841444\t這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員我們醫生\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長\n謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰\n那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論\n那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法\n那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感\n那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向\n比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法\n那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的\n政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果\n另外就是催收保費可能我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候 退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外\n那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法\n謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度\n但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他\n其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子\n好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個\n整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議\n其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900\n可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實\n這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距\n那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是\n基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的\n那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個\n那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它\n當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會\n所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說\n如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個\n相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出\n那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限\n來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估\n那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法\n我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分\n第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題\n所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃\n部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢\n退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面\n在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能\n這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員我們醫生\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.911 --> 00:11.860\n好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長\n\n00:22.957 --> 00:45.231\n謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰\n\n00:46.272 --> 01:06.613\n那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論\n\n01:08.715 --> 01:22.083\n那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法\n\n01:25.885 --> 01:50.305\n那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感\n\n01:51.005 --> 02:13.379\n那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向\n\n02:14.656 --> 02:30.831\n比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法\n\n02:31.391 --> 02:45.737\n那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的\n\n02:46.957 --> 03:14.355\n政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果\n\n03:14.835 --> 03:36.562\n另外就是催收保費可能我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外\n\n03:37.182 --> 03:58.519\n那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法\n\n04:00.922 --> 04:20.972\n謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度\n\n04:22.853 --> 04:40.846\n但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他\n\n04:42.527 --> 05:02.258\n其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子\n\n05:02.418 --> 05:29.556\n好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個\n\n05:30.937 --> 05:59.650\n整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議\n\n06:00.530 --> 06:19.545\n其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900\n\n06:24.088 --> 06:43.047\n可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實\n\n06:44.348 --> 07:06.493\n這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距\n\n07:07.333 --> 07:29.353\n那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是\n\n07:30.114 --> 07:39.366\n基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的\n\n07:41.175 --> 08:04.352\n那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個\n\n08:05.012 --> 08:21.515\n那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它\n\n08:22.436 --> 08:40.777\n當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會\n\n08:41.798 --> 08:58.319\n所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說\n\n08:59.540 --> 09:23.748\n如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個\n\n09:26.229 --> 09:53.066\n相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出\n\n09:53.826 --> 10:19.925\n那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限\n\n10:20.906 --> 10:37.748\n來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估\n\n10:39.089 --> 11:05.998\n那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法\n\n11:08.059 --> 11:31.367\n我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分\n\n11:31.927 --> 12:01.167\n第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題\n\n12:02.167 --> 12:20.921\n所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃\n\n12:23.303 --> 12:49.311\n部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢\n\n12:50.191 --> 13:12.823\n退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面\n\n13:14.364 --> 13:38.246\n在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能\n\n13:39.206 --> 14:01.444\n這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好那就麻煩部長好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝王委員我們醫生\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.911,"end":11.86,"text":"好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長"},{"start":22.957,"end":45.231,"text":"謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰"},{"start":46.272,"end":66.613,"text":"那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論"},{"start":68.715,"end":82.083,"text":"那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法"},{"start":85.885,"end":110.305,"text":"那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感"},{"start":111.005,"end":133.379,"text":"那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分那針對於目前整個政府的方向"},{"start":134.656,"end":150.831,"text":"比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法"},{"start":151.391,"end":165.737,"text":"那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的"},{"start":166.957,"end":194.355,"text":"政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果"},{"start":194.835,"end":216.562,"text":"另外就是催收保費可能我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候 退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外"},{"start":217.182,"end":238.519,"text":"那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法"},{"start":240.922,"end":260.972,"text":"謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度"},{"start":262.853,"end":280.846,"text":"但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他"},{"start":282.527,"end":302.258,"text":"其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子"},{"start":302.418,"end":329.556,"text":"好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個"},{"start":330.937,"end":359.65,"text":"整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議"},{"start":360.53,"end":379.545,"text":"其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900"},{"start":384.088,"end":403.047,"text":"可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實"},{"start":404.348,"end":426.493,"text":"這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距"},{"start":427.333,"end":449.353,"text":"那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是"},{"start":450.114,"end":459.366,"text":"基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的"},{"start":461.175,"end":484.352,"text":"那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個"},{"start":485.012,"end":501.515,"text":"那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它"},{"start":502.436,"end":520.777,"text":"當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會"},{"start":521.798,"end":538.319,"text":"所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說"},{"start":539.54,"end":563.748,"text":"如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個"},{"start":566.229,"end":593.066,"text":"相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出"},{"start":593.826,"end":619.925,"text":"那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限"},{"start":620.906,"end":637.748,"text":"來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估"},{"start":639.089,"end":665.998,"text":"那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法"},{"start":668.059,"end":691.367,"text":"我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分"},{"start":691.927,"end":721.167,"text":"第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題"},{"start":722.167,"end":740.921,"text":"所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃"},{"start":743.303,"end":769.311,"text":"部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢"},{"start":770.191,"end":792.823,"text":"退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面"},{"start":794.364,"end":818.246,"text":"在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能"},{"start":819.206,"end":841.444,"text":"這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員我們醫生"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時38分）好，謝謝主席，我們就麻煩洪部長，多謝啦，讓你排這麼困難的題目。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。謝謝部長今天提供的專題報告，內容真的非常豐富，這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難，也許對召委來講沒有到困難的程度，不過因為相對來講，勞工，尤其是對勞保財務穩健改善的部分，真的是面臨非常大的挑戰。今天就三個主題來跟部長討論：一個就是勞保財務改善機制；另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性；第三個就是勞保、勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論。","我們也了解勞保整體財務要穩健的改善，事實上要考量的事情會非常非常的多，所以一直以來，歷任部長對這個議題都會採用比較穩健的做法。在上個會期預算會期中，我也麻煩勞動部針對勞保財務的改善提出一些因應對策，希望能夠有更合理的方式，讓整體勞工朋友很有信心的知道，政府其實對於勞工，尤其在退休以後的財務部分，可以讓他們得到一個最大的心理安定感。我們也知道，如果透過一些改革，包括提高保費，或者是降低給付，或者是延長投保薪資採計期間等改革方案，通常會有很多很多要同時思考的部分。","目前整個政府的方向比較傾向於，第一個，不降低給付；第二個就是不調整保費，這是兩個大前提，在這兩個大前提之下，對於整體的處理模式就會有不同的思考方法。針對勞保財務的因應對策，如果在剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話，可能就會有需要三個部分：第一個，就好像前任何部長所提到的，政府撥補也是改革的方案之一，到目前洪部長也有同感；第二個是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場，去年我們也修法把65歲的年齡再往後延退；第三個就是要強化查核及管理機制，這就包括整個勞保基金投資的績效，如何能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果；另外就是催收保費，可能我們可以定期的透過更好的方式來催收保費；再來就是在給付的時候，退休的時候這些給付的審查，這都是可以當作一個因應對策。","在政府撥補的部分，目前除了每年1,000億的政府撥補以外，其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把最終支付責任入法？另外，有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐，或者是公益彩券等等的方式讓勞保財務可以更穩健？這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員的建議。在勞保財務的維持上，其實挑戰是很大的，各方有各種的意見，包括今天一直討論到的政府最終支付責任入法，我們都是持開放的態度，但是我還是要強調，不管有沒有入法，我想政府都是會負最終責任的，至於其他財源的開源，這當然會涉及到比方說委員有提到特定的一些稅捐、公彩或者是其他部分，因為它現在可能也是其他運用的財源，不過，對於有利於增加基金收入的一些建議，我想我都會持正面的態度來做研議，當然這部分我們很願意跟委員做更多的討論，看還有沒有更多的可能性。"],["王委員正旭：好，那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看，就是調整勞（就）保投保薪資上限的可能性。關於這部分，依照上一次預算會期的提案，如果我們把投保薪資上限往上提升會帶來哪些影響？也期待透過這個調整可以讓我們整個勞保制度能夠更為完整，在保費、保險這一部分，那個時候部裡面的回應是說，最主要的顧慮還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付支出，也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮，所以還是在研議當中，並沒有想要做這方面的改善。不過，我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們會有這樣的提議。","其實從過去這二十年來就可以理解，經過1998年把勞保最高投保薪資級距訂到4萬2,000元，到了8年後，即2006年6月又增加了1,900，變成4萬3,900，可是2016年到目前為止，好像也將近十年了，有沒有機會把當初在2016年訂的4萬5,800再往上提高？為什麼我們會想要從這邊來討論？我們可以看得出來，在最高投保級距的人數部分，其實這幾年來或者二十年來，這個百分比已經改變非常多，在2006年，投保到最高級距的4萬2,000只有18%，十年以後變成25%，現在已經到33%。意思就是說，從這個勞動人口來看的話，有33%的人已經投保到最高投保級距，似乎就等於太多太多人擠在這個級距裡面，未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話，如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個級距更合理的分布，這是我們非常期待的，因為我們看到每人每月的薪資，當然這是個平均值，在使用上要非常的小心，可是基本上他已經5萬5,000了，我們用4萬5,000來當作最高級距，似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分，這是我們可以從這個數據上看得到的。","以上是從級距上來看，如果就給付項目來看的話，大部分的勞保給付，年金還是占了90%，就是最大宗的支出，可是還有其他不同的給付，包括死亡給付，剛剛麥委員也提到，勞工如果出問題的話，死亡給付的這個……這些給付基本上都是以最高級距來做試算的基礎。","另外，就保給付的部分包括失業給付等等，假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看，如果我們不去調整它，當然這些影響是會很明顯，如果我們試著以少子化來看的話，我們能夠把最高級距提升的時候，他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會，對於育嬰留職停薪津貼、薪資補助也會有改善的機會。所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候，針對某一些特殊需求，其實是可以看到它的效果。當然整體來看，我們還是要適度地去評估各方面帶來的影響，所以我們試著去分析它的利弊，專家學者也告訴我們，如果我們要把投保薪資上限做調整的話，它的好處或者考量就是，基本上它是一個溫和提高保費收入的方式，也可以回應這個給付標準的需求，以及回應薪資跟最低工資持續的調漲，還有，具體上就調整時間來看的話，事實上是可以有調整投保上限這個機會存在，當然也會造成某些困擾或者疑慮，包括給付金額會增加，目前在沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下，不宜加重財務的負擔，當然這個過程裡面也會增加勞工、資方（雇方）還有政府三方的保費支出。","另外，這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面？我們也了解要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難，不過，我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式，看能不能夠在這個前提之下，就是在提高投保上限的這個機制之下，還有哪些配套措施可以來進行？包括提高投保上限來搭配其他的方案，包括採用累退方式來降低高薪者的給付、對勞保財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估，以及對於勞資政三方保費支出的影響評估。另外，要建立勞（就）保投保薪資級距上限的調整機制。剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在最高薪資這個級距裡面，未來看有沒有機會到了一定百分比的時候，我們就試著去調整這些機制，然後去看這個影響會是如何，不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議，或者是目前有什麼想法？"],["洪部長申翰：我要非常謝謝王委員，包括剛才做的利弊分析，和最後提出來的建議，其實我們都覺得很具建設性，也幫助我們很多，現在在螢幕上面的第二項跟第三項這些相關的影響評估，我想我們保險司應該可以來提供這些影響評估的部分，而第一項跟第四項，我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討，也就是說，針對勞保級距上限的問題，最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔，因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰，其實最主要的考量點，坦白說就是這件事情，但這件事情也不是一個那麼好克服的問題，所以我們是在這個前提之下，有沒有可能有各種思考的作法？我想我們是願意再去做一些評估跟思考。"],["王委員正旭：好啊！那就麻煩部長持續來關心這個部分，這本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛。","最後，我再請部長、部裡面也試著去掌握看看，因為我們知道，大家在工作的期間，對於如何去試算勞工退休金的部分不會太在意，可是當你越接近退休的時候，就會開始想要去瞭解自己退休以後將來會有多少錢可以支配？所以我們就會有兩個制度，或者是兩個算法，那這邊看到的是部裡面提供兩套不同的系統，讓民眾和勞工朋友知道將來退休的時候，會有哪一些可以試算的基礎。我們可以看的是部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面，在勞工朋友有這個需求的時候可以去應用，可是它分屬在不同的兩個系統，我們可以看到左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統，部裡是不是有機會去整合，以勞工為準整合勞保年金給付跟勞退新制試算的網頁可這樣的話除了方便性很高外，將來大家應用上也會更方便。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒。其實這個建議我覺得是非常好，而且應該會對勞工朋友在試算的時候提供很大的方便性，所以我認為可以配合來辦理。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，謝謝王委員。","我們醫生健保是付到18萬，最高現在十八萬多，像王正旭應該是繳18萬的，18萬現在5.21%就是九千多塊，那勞保這邊才4萬5,800，我們也交十幾萬可以嗎？我退休可以領更多錢。你一直搖頭。我們也覺得真的很不公平，健保要繳這麼高。","好，接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}