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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:11:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:24:03+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162224","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162224","tool":"pyannote","id":"162224-pyannote"},"job_id":"t4o4UlB8a55OBUkb","queued_at":"2025-06-04 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\"end\": 246.674, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 246.674, \"end\": 247.074, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"倒\", \"start\": 247.074, \"end\": 247.214, \"score\": 0.592}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 247.214, \"end\": 247.294, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 247.294, \"end\": 247.555, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 247.555, \"end\": 247.695, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 247.695, \"end\": 247.815, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 247.815, \"end\": 247.975, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 247.975, \"end\": 248.335, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 248.335, \"end\": 248.355, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 248.355, \"end\": 248.475, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 248.475, \"end\": 248.675, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 248.675, \"end\": 248.875, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 248.875, \"end\": 248.975, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 248.975, \"end\": 249.376, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"獎\"}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"措\", \"start\": 249.376, \"end\": 249.516, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 249.516, \"end\": 249.596, \"score\": 0.594}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 249.596, \"end\": 249.716, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 249.716, \"end\": 249.796, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 249.796, \"end\": 249.916, \"score\": 0.473}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 249.916, \"end\": 250.096, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 250.096, \"end\": 250.116, \"score\": 0.182}]}, {\"start\": 250.456, \"end\": 280.047, \"text\": \"但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 250.456, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 755.917, \"end\": 756.037, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 756.037, \"end\": 756.157, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 756.157, \"end\": 756.197, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 756.197, \"end\": 756.217, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,485 --> 00:00:04,090\n謝謝主席吳署長有請請吳署長吳委員好\n\n2\n00:00:10,083 --> 00:00:29,917\n市長早安,我們具體平均地權條例第25條的修正當然原因是這樣,就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定,就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則\n\n3\n00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:56,765\n那現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅嘛但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除嘛那我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣就地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟這個量能來進行課稅那可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法定限制而使\n\n4\n00:00:57,745 --> 00:01:24,656\n其喪失喔叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公、公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為\n\n5\n00:01:26,016 --> 00:01:52,626\n我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這個案子是希望在這個討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊\n\n6\n00:01:53,806 --> 00:02:14,111\n他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法李仁陽修法因為我看到你們的這個\n\n7\n00:02:16,096 --> 00:02:34,891\n書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決\n\n8\n00:02:39,915 --> 00:03:07,892\n跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的\n\n9\n00:03:08,419 --> 00:03:29,627\n所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡土地稅地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動\n\n10\n00:03:30,427 --> 00:03:45,783\n他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據\n\n11\n00:03:46,704 --> 00:04:10,116\n具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事\n\n12\n00:04:10,456 --> 00:04:40,047\n但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性\n\n13\n00:04:40,488 --> 00:04:44,217\n我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們\n\n14\n00:04:47,423 --> 00:05:12,070\n那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明\n\n15\n00:05:13,570 --> 00:05:32,809\n好這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊\n\n16\n00:05:37,677 --> 00:05:47,414\n所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則\n\n17\n00:05:49,562 --> 00:06:15,195\n說明一下喔剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛對不對開放空間就更明確因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛\n\n18\n00:06:17,222 --> 00:06:41,930\n所以你有相對在法律上相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好這第一個好\n\n19\n00:06:42,310 --> 00:06:46,954\n那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的\n\n20\n00:06:58,761 --> 00:07:26,096\n跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用\n\n21\n00:07:27,842 --> 00:07:33,425\n沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估\n\n22\n00:07:46,112 --> 00:08:00,552\n你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算\n\n23\n00:08:02,314 --> 00:08:20,487\n這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得\n\n24\n00:08:22,308 --> 00:08:49,936\n對平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以\n\n25\n00:08:50,296 --> 00:08:55,417\n但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念\n\n26\n00:09:16,041 --> 00:09:31,066\n他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充\n\n27\n00:09:42,270 --> 00:10:11,389\n所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間\n\n28\n00:10:12,630 --> 00:10:30,989\n來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少\n\n29\n00:10:33,422 --> 00:11:01,068\n我大概要三個月三個月好不好沒關係我覺得OK因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話我們在因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署地震是財政部我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考我覺得也很好\n\n30\n00:11:01,488 --> 00:11:19,967\n就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分\n\n31\n00:11:21,068 --> 00:11:43,985\n這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月因為有很多是罰款的罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議因為\n\n32\n00:11:45,831 --> 00:11:58,144\n案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦\n\n33\n00:11:58,766 --> 00:12:19,480\n你還是要跟你講但我是覺得三個月太短那個啦太久了啦這樣子好了啦我給你一個月的時間先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來你再來跟本席聊因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛對不對\n\n34\n00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:36,217\n但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1485\t4090\t謝謝主席吳署長有請請吳署長吳委員好\n10083\t29917\t市長早安,我們具體平均地權條例第25條的修正當然原因是這樣,就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定,就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則\n32159\t56765\t那現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅嘛但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除嘛那我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣就地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟這個量能來進行課稅那可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法定限制而使\n57745\t84656\t其喪失喔叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公、公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為\n86016\t112626\t我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這個案子是希望在這個討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊\n113806\t134111\t他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法李仁陽修法因為我看到你們的這個\n136096\t154891\t書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決\n159915\t187892\t跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的\n188419\t209627\t所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡土地稅 地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動\n210427\t225783\t他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據\n226704\t250116\t具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事\n250456\t280047\t但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性\n280488\t284217\t我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們\n287423\t312070\t那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明\n313570\t332809\t好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊\n337677\t347414\t所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則\n349562\t375195\t說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確 因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛\n377222\t401930\t所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好 這第一個 好\n402310\t406954\t那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的\n418761\t446096\t跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用\n447842\t453425\t沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估\n466112\t480552\t你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算\n482314\t500487\t這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得\n502308\t529936\t對 平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下 到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以\n530296\t535417\t但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念\n556041\t571066\t他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充\n582270\t611389\t所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間\n612630\t630989\t來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少\n633422\t661068\t我大概要三個月 三個月好不好 沒關係我覺得OK 因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署 那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話 我們在 因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署 地震是財政部 我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個 也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講 如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考 我覺得也很好\n661488\t679967\t就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分\n681068\t703985\t這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長 這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案 我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為\n705831\t718144\t案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦\n718766\t739480\t你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間 先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來 你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對\n740160\t756217\t但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席吳署長有請請吳署長吳委員好\n市長早安,我們具體平均地權條例第25條的修正當然原因是這樣,就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定,就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則\n那現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅嘛但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除嘛那我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣就地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟這個量能來進行課稅那可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法定限制而使\n其喪失喔叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公、公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為\n我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這個案子是希望在這個討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊\n他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法李仁陽修法因為我看到你們的這個\n書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決\n跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的\n所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡土地稅 地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動\n他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據\n具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事\n但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性\n我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們\n那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明\n好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊\n所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則\n說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確 因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛\n所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好 這第一個 好\n那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的\n跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用\n沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估\n你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算\n這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得\n對 平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下 到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以\n但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念\n他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充\n所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間\n來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少\n我大概要三個月 三個月好不好 沒關係我覺得OK 因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署 那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話 我們在 因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署 地震是財政部 我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個 也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講 如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考 我覺得也很好\n就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分\n這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長 這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案 我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為\n案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦\n你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間 先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來 你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對\n但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.485 --> 00:04.090\n謝謝主席吳署長有請請吳署長吳委員好\n\n00:10.083 --> 00:29.917\n市長早安,我們具體平均地權條例第25條的修正當然原因是這樣,就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定,就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則\n\n00:32.159 --> 00:56.765\n那現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅嘛但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除嘛那我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣就地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟這個量能來進行課稅那可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法定限制而使\n\n00:57.745 --> 01:24.656\n其喪失喔叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公、公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為\n\n01:26.016 --> 01:52.626\n我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這個案子是希望在這個討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊\n\n01:53.806 --> 02:14.111\n他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法李仁陽修法因為我看到你們的這個\n\n02:16.096 --> 02:34.891\n書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決\n\n02:39.915 --> 03:07.892\n跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的\n\n03:08.419 --> 03:29.627\n所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡土地稅地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動\n\n03:30.427 --> 03:45.783\n他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據\n\n03:46.704 --> 04:10.116\n具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事\n\n04:10.456 --> 04:40.047\n但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性\n\n04:40.488 --> 04:44.217\n我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們\n\n04:47.423 --> 05:12.070\n那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明\n\n05:13.570 --> 05:32.809\n好這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊\n\n05:37.677 --> 05:47.414\n所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則\n\n05:49.562 --> 06:15.195\n說明一下喔剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛對不對開放空間就更明確因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛\n\n06:17.222 --> 06:41.930\n所以你有相對在法律上相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好這第一個好\n\n06:42.310 --> 06:46.954\n那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的\n\n06:58.761 --> 07:26.096\n跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用\n\n07:27.842 --> 07:33.425\n沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估\n\n07:46.112 --> 08:00.552\n你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算\n\n08:02.314 --> 08:20.487\n這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得\n\n08:22.308 --> 08:49.936\n對平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以\n\n08:50.296 --> 08:55.417\n但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念\n\n09:16.041 --> 09:31.066\n他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充\n\n09:42.270 --> 10:11.389\n所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間\n\n10:12.630 --> 10:30.989\n來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少\n\n10:33.422 --> 11:01.068\n我大概要三個月三個月好不好沒關係我覺得OK因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話我們在因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署地震是財政部我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考我覺得也很好\n\n11:01.488 --> 11:19.967\n就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分\n\n11:21.068 --> 11:43.985\n這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月因為有很多是罰款的罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議因為\n\n11:45.831 --> 11:58.144\n案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦\n\n11:58.766 --> 12:19.480\n你還是要跟你講但我是覺得三個月太短那個啦太久了啦這樣子好了啦我給你一個月的時間先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來你再來跟本席聊因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛對不對\n\n12:20.160 --> 12:36.217\n但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.485,"end":4.09,"text":"謝謝主席吳署長有請請吳署長吳委員好"},{"start":10.083,"end":29.917,"text":"市長早安,我們具體平均地權條例第25條的修正當然原因是這樣,就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定,就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則"},{"start":32.159,"end":56.765,"text":"那現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅嘛但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除嘛那我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣就地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟這個量能來進行課稅那可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法定限制而使"},{"start":57.745,"end":84.656,"text":"其喪失喔叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公、公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為"},{"start":86.016,"end":112.626,"text":"我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這個案子是希望在這個討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊"},{"start":113.806,"end":134.111,"text":"他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法李仁陽修法因為我看到你們的這個"},{"start":136.096,"end":154.891,"text":"書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決"},{"start":159.915,"end":187.892,"text":"跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的"},{"start":188.419,"end":209.627,"text":"所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡土地稅 地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動"},{"start":210.427,"end":225.783,"text":"他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據"},{"start":226.704,"end":250.116,"text":"具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事"},{"start":250.456,"end":280.047,"text":"但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性"},{"start":280.488,"end":284.217,"text":"我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們"},{"start":287.423,"end":312.07,"text":"那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":313.57,"end":332.809,"text":"好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊"},{"start":337.677,"end":347.414,"text":"所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則"},{"start":349.562,"end":375.195,"text":"說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確 因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛"},{"start":377.222,"end":401.93,"text":"所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好 這第一個 好"},{"start":402.31,"end":406.954,"text":"那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的"},{"start":418.761,"end":446.096,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用"},{"start":447.842,"end":453.425,"text":"沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估"},{"start":466.112,"end":480.552,"text":"你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算"},{"start":482.314,"end":500.487,"text":"這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得"},{"start":502.308,"end":529.936,"text":"對 平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下 到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以"},{"start":530.296,"end":535.417,"text":"但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念"},{"start":556.041,"end":571.066,"text":"他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充"},{"start":582.27,"end":611.389,"text":"所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間"},{"start":612.63,"end":630.989,"text":"來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少"},{"start":633.422,"end":661.068,"text":"我大概要三個月 三個月好不好 沒關係我覺得OK 因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署 那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話 我們在 因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署 地震是財政部 我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個 也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講 如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考 我覺得也很好"},{"start":661.488,"end":679.967,"text":"就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分"},{"start":681.068,"end":703.985,"text":"這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長 這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案 我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為"},{"start":705.831,"end":718.144,"text":"案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦"},{"start":718.766,"end":739.48,"text":"你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間 先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來 你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對"},{"start":740.16,"end":756.217,"text":"但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時11分）謝謝主席。吳署長有請。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長早安。我們具提平均地權條例第二十五條的修正，原因在於，為了達到地盡其利的宗旨，其實都有規定促進公益的土地應該是可以減免地價稅的，行政院可以根據平均地權條例或是土地稅法再去制定土地稅相關的減免規則。現行的狀況是，基本上無償供公眾通行的道路土地，就可以免徵地價稅；但是供公眾通行的法定空地，則予以排除。我們今天要談這個問題的原因是，地價稅基本上是針對土地可以帶來的收益跟量能來進行課稅，可是如果土地因為客觀上的法令限制，而使其喪失使用財產之獲益的可能性時，基本上課徵財產稅的正當性就應該消失，所以它當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免。現在關鍵就是，不管它的名義是什麼，基本上只要它有無償供公眾通行的現況，只要是不供特定人使用且具無償性，其實就已經達成地盡其利，既然它達成所謂地盡其利的概念，你再去課稅，我認為這就有違租稅公平的原則。所以我們提這個案子是希望，在這討論的過程中，我們如何來達成更細緻的規定，因此接下來我們就討論相關的部分要怎麼樣來做設定。","現在的狀況是，無償供公眾通行之道路土地，經查明屬實者，在使用期間內，地價稅或田賦全免。但其屬建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分，不予免徵。比如說，騎樓、走廊其實就是免徵，如果有蓋建築蓋得比較高，就會變成部分減徵，就有這樣的一個機制設定。我想先跟國土署來做討論，然後我待會再跟財政部做討論。如果我們現在要讓它符合一致性跟公平性的話，除了修法，因為我看到你們的書面報告提到不建議修法，如果不建議修法，要用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的問題？也就是說，開放空間或是供公眾通行的道路土地可以免徵地價稅，但是法定空地同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅，同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決？"],["吳署長欣修：法空也好、開放空間也好，就整個建築來講，其實有相對的權利、也有相對的義務。所謂的權利是因為留設了法空或開放空間，相對應會得到一些獎勵，所以就法律的對等關係來講，本來就有對等的關係存在。一般來講，這不存在額外的、所謂值得減稅的平等原則，我想站在平等原則是這樣的概念。但是在土地稅減免規則裡面也有提到，有關具有公益性的這些項目，地方政府可以就實務上去認定，比如因應一些重大活動，同意某一些土地依停車場法來設置停車場，這個部分也可以認定是具有公益性，這些都符合規則，所以我們不建議在母法去訂，而是讓地方政府依據具有實質上的公益性項目，再依據土地稅減免規則還有平均地權條例的規定個別訂定這樣的項目，讓它在實務上更容易達成。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講了兩個重點，第一個就是法定空地有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的，但是我們今天談的重點倒不是法定空地。因為空地有獎勵措施，那是一回事，是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下，但現在狀況是法定空地且有給公眾使用的狀況，要不要有另外的稅務減免？我覺得這個問題的層次是這樣。但你的第二個重點，本席非常了解，有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓他轉移？譬如你講公益性性質更明顯，而不是用母法一概為之的方式來處理。具體來講，有沒有比如法條上的建議措施，或者是行政機關願意基於改善公平性，做什麼樣的政策調整？你們有沒有具體作法或者相關規劃？"],["林司長家正：憲法法庭的解釋認為法定空地雖然沒有使用上的利益，不過還是有建築上的利益，所以在減免規則裡面是用但書來排除免稅規定。委員剛才也提到公益目的的部分，有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理，因為稅捐實務上都是由財政部來認定，我建議由賦稅署跟委員說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望第一個、內政部作為建築等等的主管機關，可以先稍微想一下，也就是如果法定空地，不管是私設道路或者是開放空間，這些概念只要符合讓公眾使用、有一定的公益性，就應該要被更公平的對待，其實就是這樣。剛剛張宏陸委員也講，比如101的開放空間可以減徵房屋稅，所以這跟到底是大是小沒有絕對關係，關鍵是空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用，有沒有符合公益性原則。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，剛剛提到像101並沒有減徵，因為大部分的法空都會依附在……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講法空，他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間？其實也是有，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：開放空間就更明確，開放空間一定在當時的都市計畫或細則，又或都市設計準則裡面有訂定，因為賦予這一個叫做開放空間，所以它必須供公眾通行，你才能獲得這個權利。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：所以相對在法律上他有對等……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然有相對的權利義務關係。我的意思是，不管怎麼樣，因為張宏陸委員剛剛也講，他不是用個案去看，而是公平原則的問題，所以我今天講，我們把概念放寬一點，你只要可以完成公平的原則，讓這些具有公益性使用的部分可以得到合理的待遇，也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式，我覺得可以花點時間討論，給你去思考。這是第一個。","剛剛司長講要請賦稅署，我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題。我比較不滿意財政部，你的報告裡面寫說，如果這樣一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億，對不對？你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的？"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為我們只是照都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則第三十二條規定，住宅區建蔽率不能超過60%，所以用40%來估算。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！所以排除可以蓋房子的建蔽率，你就是把所有的法定空地都算，對不對？"],["陳副署長慧綺：對，假設……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地，因為按照法條修正的邏輯，應該是要供公眾通行使用，實際上這個數字是多少？有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用？"],["陳副署長慧綺：這沒有辦法切割，只能用推估的方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["陳副署長慧綺：即使用最低的10%好了，也占了將近30億，這30億畢竟還是稅損，既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要彌補財源，到底要從什麼地方來，還要做稅式支出評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：不管怎麼樣，你總要先算清楚，因為300億跟30億還是差很多！"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為沒辦法分割，就沒有辦法區分。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有關係。今天開這個題目讓大家來討論，包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算，我認為這些都是要處理的，才能更清楚。但你不能拿概算推定稅損就是這樣，然後講不要修法，我覺得這樣跳太快！我同意你前面講的，因為這是地方稅，地方政府的意見也許蠻重要的，大家多開幾次會商量一下，本席完全接受，但我的意思是，你不能用一個很寬的估算就把人家嚇退了，變成沒有實質討論，我覺得對於提案委員來講，不太公平。"],["陳副署長慧綺：我們試著努力看看，看怎麼樣能夠統計一個更精準……"],["牛委員煦庭：稍微了解一下到底這些法空就是空地，還是真的有一部分的使用，或者是有哪些像剛剛吳署長講的，有一定公益性的一些作法？我希望政府能在這個過程中清楚的設算，我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西。基於這一些道理，大家去想法條是用修法的方式，還是修改行政命令方式、推動專案政策的方式，其實都可以，只要能夠往這裡前進一步，我想就符合公平的原則，好不好？"],["陳副署長慧綺：可以請委員讓我再多講兩句話嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["陳副署長慧綺：根據112年憲判字，其實沒有違反平等原則，因為法空本來就有建築利益，跟一些特別犧牲的私設道路供公眾通行是不一樣的，既然憲法法庭已經跟我們講沒有違反平等原則，所以它沒有特別犧牲。他只是在最後面有特別強調，可能民眾會多提供、超出應該要提供的法定空地，這個部分要去考量，這個考量在剛剛委員質詢的時候，我有跟委員報告過，之後就要由民眾來提出申請，如果能夠分割得出來，當然就可以減免，就是要民眾提出申請。但是民眾申請的話，也有別的考量在，所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣的申請。跟委員補充。"],["牛委員煦庭：即便在憲法解釋、大的方向上，本來就是可否，你可以這樣做，也可以不這樣做，對不對？都不會違背憲法的精神，對不對？我看憲法解釋的意思是這樣，對不對？就是不這樣做也沒有關係，但如果可以更細緻化去做，其實更公平，因為你剛剛也講，民眾如果有需要，可以特案來申請或減免。我今天討論的其實就是如果可以優化這樣的機制，可以讓這個事情有具體的前進，我認為也很好，好不好？最後，不要花太多時間，國土署署長還有財政部，你們大概需要多少時間來討論？"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為要問22個地方政府，可能要一點時間，因為他們的地又那麼多還要去盤點，可能要有一定的時間。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒問題。一定時間是多少？"],["陳副署長慧綺：大概要三個月。"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月，好不好？沒關係，我覺得OK。因為我覺得這茲事體大，那就三個月，請財政部做相對精準的設算。"],["陳副署長慧綺：好……稅損……"],["牛委員煦庭：第二、國土署也三個月，好不好？你有壓力嗎？"],["林司長家正：因為那個部分還是財政部，應該跟財政部一起確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是地政司，你們就一起確認，國土署、地政司、財政部，你們就一起確認，也許做個研商。我贊成國土署署長講的，如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考，我覺得也很好，就把這個東西設計出來，也許這個修法就有它的意義，好不好？","另外，既然都要花點時間，針對建築法，我剛剛其實看了很多內容，國土署剛剛也有說，有些地方需要跟地方政府再溝通，對不對？因為我們今天討論兩個條例，一個是平均地權條例，我們剛剛講三個月之後再說。至於建築法的部分，需要多少時間再細緻溝通？"],["吳署長欣修：至少也給我們三個月，因為有很多是罰單的問題，的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子、小案子差距太大。"],["牛委員煦庭：平均地權條例只有本席提案，所以我就決定給你三個月。可是建築法有很多委員提案，我覺得三個月好像太久了，這要不要短一點？"],["吳署長欣修：我還是建議……因為案件太多了，尤其涉及到罰款的部分，我剛剛也有提到大小案件的金額實在差距太大，所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我覺得三個月太久了，這樣子好了，我給你一個月的時間先初步的研商，一個月之後，你再來讓本席了解，因為我當召委可能要排案……"],["吳署長欣修：好，了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：我到底要不要讓它進到實質的討論，我要讓它是有效率的方式來處理。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，平均地權條例那一個除外……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個三個月我們已經講好了，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但建築法的部分，我希望快，因為提案委員比較多，我要尊重他們。"],["吳署長欣修：我們會把各個案子初步的研商建議再跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月之內要有初步研商建議，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們再來做後續排案節奏的參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。","接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}}