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{\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 54.382, \"end\": 54.542, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 54.542, \"end\": 54.922, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 54.922, \"end\": 55.103, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 55.103, \"end\": 55.243, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 55.243, \"end\": 55.363, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 55.363, \"end\": 55.563, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 55.563, \"end\": 56.143, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 56.143, \"end\": 56.423, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 56.423, \"end\": 56.563, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 56.563, \"end\": 56.683, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 56.683, \"end\": 56.963, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 56.963, \"end\": 57.043, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 57.043, \"end\": 57.203, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"思\", 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\"分\", \"start\": 86.348, \"end\": 86.368, \"score\": 0.517}]}, {\"start\": 87.779, \"end\": 115.442, \"text\": \"立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 87.779, \"end\": 87.999, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 87.999, \"end\": 88.139, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 88.139, \"end\": 88.299, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 88.299, \"end\": 88.78, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 88.78, \"end\": 89.34, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 89.34, \"end\": 89.5, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 89.5, \"end\": 89.781, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 89.781, \"end\": 90.141, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 90.141, \"end\": 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\"第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 233.356, \"end\": 233.516, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 233.516, \"end\": 233.977, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 233.977, \"end\": 235.378, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 235.378, \"end\": 235.518, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 235.518, \"end\": 235.718, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 235.718, \"end\": 236.939, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 236.939, \"end\": 237.18, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 237.18, \"end\": 237.5, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 237.5, \"end\": 237.68, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 237.68, \"end\": 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\"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 252.734, \"end\": 252.975, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 252.975, \"end\": 253.115, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 253.115, \"end\": 254.596, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 254.596, \"end\": 255.097, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 255.097, \"end\": 255.357, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 255.357, \"end\": 255.597, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 255.597, \"end\": 255.717, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 255.717, \"end\": 255.837, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 255.837, \"end\": 256.098, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 256.098, \"end\": 256.198, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 256.198, \"end\": 256.298, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, 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00:00:30,954\n好部長跟主席我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權集錢地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事\n\n3\n00:00:31,874 --> 00:00:58,664\n因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思\n\n4\n00:01:00,558 --> 00:01:26,368\n我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分\n\n5\n00:01:27,779 --> 00:01:55,442\n立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分\n\n6\n00:01:56,058 --> 00:02:08,175\n有刪到過但是有刪到一般補助款嗎你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我要用麥克風是沒有沒有以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款\n\n7\n00:02:09,518 --> 00:02:26,874\n說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多\n\n8\n00:02:28,126 --> 00:02:46,029\n所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上\n\n9\n00:02:48,324 --> 00:03:11,015\n通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長\n\n10\n00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:31,486\n我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有\n\n11\n00:03:32,950 --> 00:03:51,557\n有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了\n\n12\n00:03:53,356 --> 00:04:16,338\n第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎\n\n13\n00:04:19,855 --> 00:04:43,406\n其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊\n\n14\n00:04:47,028 --> 00:05:07,157\n是但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦\n\n15\n00:05:07,810 --> 00:05:33,845\n他現在勢必要追檢了啦被你弄到要追檢了啦好重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法\n\n16\n00:05:35,663 --> 00:05:44,706\n我上次問過妳嘛妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊\n\n17\n00:05:52,657 --> 00:06:20,588\n地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算\n\n18\n00:06:21,528 --> 00:06:45,150\n如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場\n\n19\n00:06:47,728 --> 00:06:57,691\n如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長\n\n20\n00:07:07,682 --> 00:07:31,923\n是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方\n\n21\n00:07:32,603 --> 00:07:41,268\n本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些\n\n22\n00:07:42,349 --> 00:08:00,294\n好謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億\n\n23\n00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:22,945\n25.9億對不起25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌\n\n24\n00:08:24,366 --> 00:08:48,238\n一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝\n\n25\n00:08:50,259 --> 00:09:08,846\n召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念以上好的謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了\n\n26\n00:09:09,206 --> 00:09:29,818\n今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目\n\n27\n00:09:30,818 --> 00:09:47,821\n優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來\n\n28\n00:09:48,742 --> 00:10:07,976\n報告委員我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福不影響教育不影響基層建設\n\n29\n00:10:10,037 --> 00:10:28,241\n以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢\n\n30\n00:10:32,466 --> 00:10:49,219\n她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎\n\n31\n00:10:50,500 --> 00:11:16,896\n今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問\n\n32\n00:11:18,035 --> 00:11:35,732\n妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?\n\n33\n00:11:36,966 --> 00:12:01,365\n那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎\n\n34\n00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:11,481\n我們沒辦法因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長我覺得一樣啦還是一樣以昌生為念啦拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n83\t704\t陳主席長 莊部長委員好\n9192\t30954\t好 部長跟主席我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權 集錢地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事\n31874\t58664\t因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思\n60558\t86368\t我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分\n87779\t115442\t立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分\n116058\t128175\t有刪到過 但是有刪到一般補助款嗎 你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我 要用麥克風是 沒有沒有 以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款\n129518\t146874\t說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多\n148126\t166029\t所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上\n168324\t191015\t通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長\n192116\t211486\t我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有\n212950\t231557\t有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了\n233356\t256338\t第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎\n259855\t283406\t其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊\n287028\t307157\t是 但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦\n307810\t333845\t他現在勢必要追檢了啦 被你弄到要追檢了啦好 重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說 我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法\n335663\t344706\t我上次問過妳嘛 妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊\n352657\t380588\t地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算\n381528\t405150\t如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場\n407728\t417691\t如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長\n427682\t451923\t是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方\n452603\t461268\t本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些\n462349\t480294\t好 謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億\n484196\t502945\t25.9億 對不起 25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育 社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌\n504366\t528238\t一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝\n530259\t548846\t召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念 以上好的 謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了\n549206\t569818\t今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目\n570818\t587821\t優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來\n588742\t607976\t報告委員 我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對 那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來 譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福 不影響教育 不影響基層建設\n610037\t628241\t以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢\n632466\t649219\t她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎\n650500\t676896\t今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問\n678035\t695732\t妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?\n696966\t721365\t那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎\n723260\t731481\t我們沒辦法 因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長 我覺得一樣啦還是一樣 以昌生為念啦 拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員\n","txt":"陳主席長 莊部長委員好\n好 部長跟主席我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權 集錢地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事\n因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思\n我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分\n立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分\n有刪到過 但是有刪到一般補助款嗎 你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我 要用麥克風是 沒有沒有 以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款\n說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多\n所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上\n通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長\n我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有\n有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了\n第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎\n其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊\n是 但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦\n他現在勢必要追檢了啦 被你弄到要追檢了啦好 重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說 我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法\n我上次問過妳嘛 妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊\n地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算\n如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場\n如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長\n是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方\n本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些\n好 謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億\n25.9億 對不起 25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育 社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌\n一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝\n召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念 以上好的 謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了\n今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目\n優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來\n報告委員 我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對 那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來 譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福 不影響教育 不影響基層建設\n以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢\n她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎\n今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問\n妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?\n那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎\n我們沒辦法 因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長 我覺得一樣啦還是一樣 以昌生為念啦 拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.083 --> 00:00.704\n陳主席長莊部長委員好\n\n00:09.192 --> 00:30.954\n好部長跟主席我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權集錢地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事\n\n00:31.874 --> 00:58.664\n因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思\n\n01:00.558 --> 01:26.368\n我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分\n\n01:27.779 --> 01:55.442\n立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分\n\n01:56.058 --> 02:08.175\n有刪到過但是有刪到一般補助款嗎你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我要用麥克風是沒有沒有以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款\n\n02:09.518 --> 02:26.874\n說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多\n\n02:28.126 --> 02:46.029\n所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上\n\n02:48.324 --> 03:11.015\n通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長\n\n03:12.116 --> 03:31.486\n我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有\n\n03:32.950 --> 03:51.557\n有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了\n\n03:53.356 --> 04:16.338\n第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎\n\n04:19.855 --> 04:43.406\n其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊\n\n04:47.028 --> 05:07.157\n是但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦\n\n05:07.810 --> 05:33.845\n他現在勢必要追檢了啦被你弄到要追檢了啦好重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法\n\n05:35.663 --> 05:44.706\n我上次問過妳嘛妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊\n\n05:52.657 --> 06:20.588\n地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算\n\n06:21.528 --> 06:45.150\n如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場\n\n06:47.728 --> 06:57.691\n如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長\n\n07:07.682 --> 07:31.923\n是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方\n\n07:32.603 --> 07:41.268\n本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些\n\n07:42.349 --> 08:00.294\n好謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億\n\n08:04.196 --> 08:22.945\n25.9億對不起25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌\n\n08:24.366 --> 08:48.238\n一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝\n\n08:50.259 --> 09:08.846\n召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念以上好的謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了\n\n09:09.206 --> 09:29.818\n今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目\n\n09:30.818 --> 09:47.821\n優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來\n\n09:48.742 --> 10:07.976\n報告委員我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福不影響教育不影響基層建設\n\n10:10.037 --> 10:28.241\n以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢\n\n10:32.466 --> 10:49.219\n她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎\n\n10:50.500 --> 11:16.896\n今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問\n\n11:18.035 --> 11:35.732\n妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?\n\n11:36.966 --> 12:01.365\n那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎\n\n12:03.260 --> 12:11.481\n我們沒辦法因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長我覺得一樣啦還是一樣以昌生為念啦拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.083,"end":0.704,"text":"陳主席長 莊部長委員好"},{"start":9.192,"end":30.954,"text":"好 部長跟主席我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權 集錢地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事"},{"start":31.874,"end":58.664,"text":"因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思"},{"start":60.558,"end":86.368,"text":"我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分"},{"start":87.779,"end":115.442,"text":"立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分"},{"start":116.058,"end":128.175,"text":"有刪到過 但是有刪到一般補助款嗎 你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我 要用麥克風是 沒有沒有 以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款"},{"start":129.518,"end":146.874,"text":"說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多"},{"start":148.126,"end":166.029,"text":"所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上"},{"start":168.324,"end":191.015,"text":"通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長"},{"start":192.116,"end":211.486,"text":"我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有"},{"start":212.95,"end":231.557,"text":"有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了"},{"start":233.356,"end":256.338,"text":"第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎"},{"start":259.855,"end":283.406,"text":"其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊"},{"start":287.028,"end":307.157,"text":"是 但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦"},{"start":307.81,"end":333.845,"text":"他現在勢必要追檢了啦 被你弄到要追檢了啦好 重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說 我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法"},{"start":335.663,"end":344.706,"text":"我上次問過妳嘛 妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊"},{"start":352.657,"end":380.588,"text":"地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算"},{"start":381.528,"end":405.15,"text":"如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場"},{"start":407.728,"end":417.691,"text":"如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長"},{"start":427.682,"end":451.923,"text":"是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方"},{"start":452.603,"end":461.268,"text":"本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些"},{"start":462.349,"end":480.294,"text":"好 謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億"},{"start":484.196,"end":502.945,"text":"25.9億 對不起 25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育 社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌"},{"start":504.366,"end":528.238,"text":"一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝"},{"start":530.259,"end":548.846,"text":"召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念 以上好的 謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了"},{"start":549.206,"end":569.818,"text":"今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目"},{"start":570.818,"end":587.821,"text":"優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來"},{"start":588.742,"end":607.976,"text":"報告委員 我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對 那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來 譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福 不影響教育 不影響基層建設"},{"start":610.037,"end":628.241,"text":"以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢"},{"start":632.466,"end":649.219,"text":"她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":650.5,"end":676.896,"text":"今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問"},{"start":678.035,"end":695.732,"text":"妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?"},{"start":696.966,"end":721.365,"text":"那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎"},{"start":723.26,"end":731.481,"text":"我們沒辦法 因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長 我覺得一樣啦還是一樣 以昌生為念啦 拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時32分）謝謝主席，我請主計長及財政部長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、莊部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長、主計長，好！我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次，財政收支劃分法的修正就是要解決中央集權集錢、地方政府仰中央鼻息的這個問題，今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事，因為修正了，所以地方將來會有穩定的財源，而不會像今天一樣，中央想砍就砍。今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權，給行政單位相當的彈性，但是今天看到的是這個情況。主計長，我想問你一個問題，砍一般性補助款是你的意思，還是行政院長的意思，還是總統的意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是提了很多方案，但是有一些方案是真的沒辦法、不可行……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以最後定案的是誰？誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款？行政院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是提上去給上面做決定。"],["黃委員珊珊：上面是行政院院長嗎？還是總統府？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是院長……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長拍板，所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是我們提供的建議……"],["黃委員珊珊：請大家把這個事情搞清楚。","第二個部分，立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪，今年是第一次嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前統刪大部分都是差不多1%啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：以前就有統刪，不超過1%，所以都沒有這個問題……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為以前刪得少，所以這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：刪得少，所以就刪不到。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只問你，但是以前有刪到一般補助款嗎？沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：有刪到過，但是有刪到一般補助款嗎？你有沒有回答我？你要不要回答我？要用麥克風。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，以前立法院刪的統刪預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款，說清楚，講明白。","第三個部分，今年就像剛剛很多委員都講的，這一次總預算裡面的歲出預算，只有監察院、外交部、財政部、經濟部、環境部及數發部的預算比上一年度少，其他的單位都比上一年度多，所以我們在統刪的金額裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性，就是可以去自行調節。請問主計長，你有去調節嗎？你有去詢問各部會他有哪些東西可以省嗎？省到最後，還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上。"],["陳主計長淑姿：通案刪減的部分是不可以調節……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們沒辦法再刪了，你檢討過他們沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它不可以調節，而且本身裡面大概都是一般的業務經費，所以造成執行困難……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是他說他節省不了，你就相信了，所以你就直接去砍地方政府的了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這個部分是因為金額那麼大，大概也沒有那麼大的計畫可以刪減，如果要刪的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有那麼多可以刪，所以只好去刪地方政府的……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這是不得不的。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部部長，在財劃法修正的時候，你一直說要跟地方政府溝通，他們的意見不同，所以一直在溝通，溝通了十幾年都沒有用。","第二個、我想問一下，這一次主計總處在刪地方補助款的時候，財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我不清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有。主計長，你有沒有？有沒有跟大家說要砍他們的錢、砍多少錢，有跟他們溝通過嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是沒有啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，直接發文，對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這件事情對你們來說就是權力是你的，你愛幹嘛幹嘛，今天才會站在這邊，還會有這個提案，預算都審查過了。","第三個問題，我現在的問題是現在補助款刪到最後是到110年的水平，也就是現在是個僵局，請問行政院主計總處，你們打算如何解決這個僵局？還是地方政府接下來要跟各地方議會報追減預算，你們是要他們直接報追減預算嗎？現在是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們在刪減之前，都有去做一些設算，設算各縣市能夠舉債的空間……"],["黃委員珊珊：去設算，所以現在這個結論下去，就是他們要去追減預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有他累計賸餘的情形，因為這個部分他們的影響會是在歲入面，不會影響到歲出，歲入……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他們要去追減預算，也就是沒有其他的方法了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他可以撙節相關不必要的支出……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在這些縣市首長坐在這邊就是要聽你主計處長告訴他要怎麼辦啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：他要怎麼辦啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：他也可以用累計賸餘來貼補……"],["黃委員珊珊：他可以用他自己的錢來做，所以你不會再給他錢。答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題，要他利用他的私房錢，去把它花一花。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，臺南市政府也有建議要辦追加，但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：他現在勢必要追減了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：立法委員來支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：他現在勢必要追減了，被你弄到要追減了。","重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財劃法修正，告訴我們現在的版本就是最好的版本，而且所有的內容都說補助款給好多好多。現在的問題就是今天所有問題，財劃法修正才是最終解決的方法。所以我想問一下主計長，你現在編新的預算是要用新的財劃法，還是舊的財劃法？我上次問過你，你說依法行政。明年的預算是用新的財劃法，對吧！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，因為我們現在送釋憲，還是要依照憲法法庭釋憲的結果來決定……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在地方政府的預算是用新法編，還是舊法編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方政府的部分，我還沒有調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：你不知道……"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你也沒有要依法行政。","最後的問題，我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要？還是要立法院請他們來這邊，你們才能聽得到？第二個、地方被中央集錢又集權，財劃法現在立法院已經修正了，你們也不執行。第三個、他們接下去要編明年的預算，也不知道怎麼編，明年度的預算如果是用舊的財劃法，就是中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾，你們也不遵守。這三件事情，行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了！主計總處完全不守財政紀律，讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走，這才是我今天的問題……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是……"],["黃委員珊珊：財劃法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的，行政院不願意提版本，到今天為止還沒有立場，如果兩位首長真的負責任的話，要清楚的告訴院長，我們不可以這樣子做！","時間暫停，我請新竹市政府秘書長。"],["主席：請新竹市政府張秘書長。"],["張秘書長治祥：主席好！委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：秘書長，新竹市是台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市，我們在修財劃法的時候也發現，新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大，但是真的分到的地方統籌分配稅款與其他縣市相比顯不公平，所以我們做了很多調整。第二個，這一次刪減到一般補助款，對於地方本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響，我想知道新竹在這次被刪了多少，以及對你們影響有哪些？"],["張秘書長治祥：謝謝委員關心，新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%，還不是25%，是27.3%，金額是9.8億，因為我們規模比較小，所以實際上刪了9.8億，刪完的結果，我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下25.9億，比去年33.5億還要來得少了，所以刪了其實是影響非常大。剛剛大家都提到，刪了之後，我們會受到影響的部分是教育、社福以及基層建設，這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的，而是因為這些項目就是一般補助款所指定的施政項目，我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪。所以剛剛所講到，所有弱勢孩子的補助、收入的補助、營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利，以及我們的基礎建設，我們的公園、我們的道路、我們的水溝，這些通通受到影響，真的是影響非常的重大，所以今天謝謝召集人讓我們有機會來表達意見，我們也非常希望今天審議的議案能夠照案通過，能夠把補助款還給我們，就像我們代理市長所說的，以蒼生為念，以上。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，謝謝秘書長，我想部長跟主計長大家都聽到了，今天大家都說，如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了，現在刪到的是社福、是基層建設、是教育，教育、社福是政府的責任，這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目，主計長，我想請問一下，你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：優先性跟必要性，就大聲的告訴所有的國人，我不認為地方政府的一般補助款有優先性，也不認為它有必要性的，講出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我刪新竹市的部分只有刪增裕財源的部分，它的三項補助我是沒有刪的，所以這個部分我必須要釐清，而且它刪減……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它說的不對，你們給它的錢不會影響到……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們以三項合計起來，譬如說，一般性補助、統籌分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：你大聲的說，我不影響社福、不影響教育、不影響基層建設……"],["陳主計長淑姿：以新竹市來講的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是只有新竹市，今天是所有的縣市都在。"],["陳主計長淑姿：三項合起來它是比去年還增加。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果比去年還增加，就不會有秘書長站在這邊講話，在這裡講話不能說謊的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有說謊。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們說受到影響，你又說沒有受到影響，所以誰說的算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是有受到影響，但是不是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要不要對著麥克風說呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它三項合起來是比去年增加7億，一個是計畫型補助，一個一般性補助，還有統籌分配稅款。"],["黃委員珊珊：增加7億，但是它被刪了9.5億，還是比較多，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還是比去年增加7億。"],["黃委員珊珊：還是比去年多，所以它沒有受任何影響，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不能說沒有影響……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了，才會站在這裡，636億，你告訴我沒有影響。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是我們被通案刪減的部分，我們刪減了……我們必須要通案刪減……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，如果按照這樣的說法……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以沒有辦法，這是我們不得不的作法。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政收支劃分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定，而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以予取予求，我覺得這才是今天我們最大的問題。所以主計長，我要問，你的備案是什麼？你什麼時候會有備案？或者是今天為止，之後就是你們隨人顧生命？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是指財劃法的部分嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但不是只有這個，今天這個錢你有什麼備案？沒有備案，來這邊只是虛晃一招，你要怎麼解決這個僵局？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性補助的部分嗎？因為有一些縣市有建議說要追加，我們也希望立法院能夠支持，如果支持這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：那你們要做什麼事，要做什麼補救？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘量在這個會期裡面來把它提出……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個會期提出追加預算是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果說立法院願意支持的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們只有這個方法了嗎？你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們，然後再去算算各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有辦法，因為現在窒礙於難行的部分就是在這裡，是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，我覺得一樣啦！還是一樣，以蒼生為念，拜託。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}}