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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 91.358, \"end\": 92.961, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 92.961, \"end\": 93.101, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 93.101, \"end\": 93.522, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 93.522, \"end\": 93.743, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 93.743, \"end\": 93.923, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 93.923, \"end\": 94.043, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 94.043, \"end\": 94.484, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 94.484, \"end\": 94.644, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 94.644, \"end\": 94.865, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 94.865, \"end\": 94.885, \"score\": 0.972}]}, {\"start\": 95.742, \"end\": 116.52, \"text\": \"我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 95.742, \"end\": 95.782, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 95.782, \"end\": 96.142, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 96.142, \"end\": 96.963, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 96.963, \"end\": 97.023, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 97.023, \"end\": 97.143, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.143, \"end\": 97.243, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 97.243, \"end\": 97.403, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 97.403, \"end\": 97.503, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 97.503, \"end\": 97.584, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 97.584, \"end\": 97.924, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 97.924, \"end\": 98.044, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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115.018, \"end\": 115.639, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 115.639, \"end\": 115.759, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 115.759, \"end\": 115.919, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 115.919, \"end\": 116.019, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 116.019, \"end\": 116.119, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 116.119, \"end\": 116.299, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 116.299, \"end\": 116.5, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 116.5, \"end\": 116.52, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 117.95, \"end\": 131.359, \"text\": \"行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 117.95, \"end\": 118.09, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 118.09, \"end\": 118.21, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 118.21, \"end\": 118.35, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"可\", 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00:00:09,907\n謝謝主席本席請洪部長學恩好部長好本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空\n\n2\n00:00:37,108 --> 00:00:55,314\n所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法\n\n3\n00:00:55,914 --> 00:01:20,301\n那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個\n\n4\n00:01:23,424 --> 00:01:34,885\n這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何\n\n5\n00:01:35,742 --> 00:01:56,520\n我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本\n\n6\n00:01:57,950 --> 00:02:11,359\n行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個\n\n7\n00:02:13,681 --> 00:02:41,951\n想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項\n\n8\n00:02:44,494 --> 00:03:11,215\n可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本\n\n9\n00:03:12,196 --> 00:03:22,589\n那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為\n\n10\n00:03:28,052 --> 00:03:46,987\n就是有關因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會\n\n11\n00:03:47,828 --> 00:03:53,230\n來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影\n\n12\n00:04:07,987 --> 00:04:24,704\n有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是\n\n13\n00:04:26,245 --> 00:04:44,735\n這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎\n\n14\n00:04:45,916 --> 00:05:00,874\n呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道\n\n15\n00:05:01,794 --> 00:05:20,907\n在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程\n\n16\n00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:51,237\n我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開\n\n17\n00:05:52,216 --> 00:06:20,357\n不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以\n\n18\n00:06:21,198 --> 00:06:44,414\n所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7005\t9907\t謝謝主席 本席請洪部長學恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空\n37108\t55314\t所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法\n55914\t80301\t那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個\n83424\t94885\t這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何\n95742\t116520\t我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本\n117950\t131359\t行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個\n133681\t161951\t想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項\n164494\t191215\t可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本\n192196\t202589\t那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為\n208052\t226987\t就是有關 因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會\n227828\t233230\t來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影\n247987\t264704\t有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是\n266245\t284735\t這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎\n285916\t300874\t呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道\n301794\t320907\t在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程\n325580\t351237\t我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開\n352216\t380357\t不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以\n381198\t404414\t所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 本席請洪部長學恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空\n所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法\n那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個\n這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何\n我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本\n行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個\n想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項\n可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本\n那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為\n就是有關 因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會\n來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影\n有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是\n這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎\n呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道\n在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程\n我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開\n不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以\n所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.005 --> 00:09.907\n謝謝主席本席請洪部長學恩好部長好本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空\n\n00:37.108 --> 00:55.314\n所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法\n\n00:55.914 --> 01:20.301\n那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個\n\n01:23.424 --> 01:34.885\n這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何\n\n01:35.742 --> 01:56.520\n我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本\n\n01:57.950 --> 02:11.359\n行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個\n\n02:13.681 --> 02:41.951\n想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項\n\n02:44.494 --> 03:11.215\n可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本\n\n03:12.196 --> 03:22.589\n那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為\n\n03:28.052 --> 03:46.987\n就是有關因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會\n\n03:47.828 --> 03:53.230\n來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影\n\n04:07.987 --> 04:24.704\n有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是\n\n04:26.245 --> 04:44.735\n這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎\n\n04:45.916 --> 05:00.874\n呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道\n\n05:01.794 --> 05:20.907\n在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程\n\n05:25.580 --> 05:51.237\n我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開\n\n05:52.216 --> 06:20.357\n不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以\n\n06:21.198 --> 06:44.414\n所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.005,"end":9.907,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請洪部長學恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空"},{"start":37.108,"end":55.314,"text":"所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法"},{"start":55.914,"end":80.301,"text":"那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個"},{"start":83.424,"end":94.885,"text":"這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何"},{"start":95.742,"end":116.52,"text":"我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本"},{"start":117.95,"end":131.359,"text":"行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個"},{"start":133.681,"end":161.951,"text":"想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項"},{"start":164.494,"end":191.215,"text":"可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本"},{"start":192.196,"end":202.589,"text":"那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為"},{"start":208.052,"end":226.987,"text":"就是有關 因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會"},{"start":227.828,"end":233.23,"text":"來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影"},{"start":247.987,"end":264.704,"text":"有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是"},{"start":266.245,"end":284.735,"text":"這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎"},{"start":285.916,"end":300.874,"text":"呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道"},{"start":301.794,"end":320.907,"text":"在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程"},{"start":325.58,"end":351.237,"text":"我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開"},{"start":352.216,"end":380.357,"text":"不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以"},{"start":381.198,"end":404.414,"text":"所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時44分）謝謝主席，本席請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席要感謝楊曜委員，剛好他所質詢的也是本席想要就教部長的，因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友，我想勞工朋友每天打拚，他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空。有關勞保年金最終責任入法這件事，楊曜委員有提版本，本席也有提版本，我們希望能夠把撥補法制化，政府負最後支付責任可以入法。因為去年卓院長剛上任，本席在總質詢的時候，卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項，您剛剛也公開表達您對政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度，那本席要請教你，你跟卓院長針對一千多萬名勞工關心的這件事情，不只卓院長公開承諾過，您也持開放態度，你們有討論過嗎？還有你們目前的共識是如何？"],["洪部長申翰：現在不管是行政院或勞動部，我們對這個議題是持開放態度，我們認為是可以做一些研議及討論的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所謂開放跟研議，那就是沒有結果，剛剛楊曜委員還很客氣地說你們沒有提版本，本席希望勞動部也可以提版本，行政院可以有版本啊！如果你們說持開放態度卻沒有作為，其實就是在欺騙民眾，或者是你們沒有版本沒關係，那你們有沒有一個期程或是你們目前的想法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實在5月中的一次委員會當中，衛環委員會有作成一項主決議，這項主決議是請我們針對最終責任入法的可行性進行評估……"],["徐委員欣瑩：三個月內對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們也在啟動這個評估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息，因為開放嘛！然後卓院長又將其列為最優先事項。請你們努力好嗎？部長，可以努力吧？"],["洪部長申翰：可以得到一個可行性評估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以努力吧！我們一定要替勞工爭取。","再來是有關最低工資的部分，身為勞動部長，您一定也知道很多勞工朋友都希望我們的最低工資能夠反映實際生活的成本，所以大家一直希望修正的決策公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況，針對這個部分，你們有沒有什麼作為？目前幅度大概是4%左右嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：相關的公式目前都是按照最低工資法的程序來進行，這個月的月底其實也會針對最低工資召開諮詢會，藉此了解勞資……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是諮詢會還是審議會？"],["洪部長申翰：諮詢會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，有關諮詢會或審議會，外界也認為不夠公開透明，有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會可以像立法院開會時直播或錄影？有可能嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為這個諮詢會也是勞、資、學界、專業界一起加入……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，包括政府、勞資雙方還有學界嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們的會議紀錄其實也都有上網公開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是決策過程可以開放公開嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密，然後我們會把……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以其實是可以的，可以考慮公開啊！"],["洪部長申翰：其實會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再者，一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠？有可能再增加嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：勞方的比例或各方的比例，其實應該都是規範在最低工資法裡面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們都按照那個法令？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在大家希望整個運作的過程、決策的過程可以公開透明，讓外界可以知道。"],["洪部長申翰：在這個會議裡面，包括會議紀錄或者是發言的紀要，其實也都有公開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是重點紀錄還是完整的發言紀錄？"],["洪部長申翰：是紀要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那就是重點嘛！如果是這樣的話，不能公開嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：公開了啊！上網公開了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說開會的過程。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為重點紀要和整個決策……"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏，但是它既有的公開程序，包括剛才所說結論的部分或發言的紀要，其實我們都有公開，我想這裡面是用很開大門、走大路的方式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你覺得這樣就夠了？其實本席也是反映一些勞方的心聲，大家也想了解開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的審議過程，我想很多人也想知道。所以你們是覺得紀錄就好，並不需要公開？"],["洪部長申翰：不是不需要公開，我們其實已經把各方發言的紀要公開上網了，這部分是有公開的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：雖然發言紀要和會議紀錄公開了，但現在我的問題是有沒有可能會議過程可以公開？有困難嗎？應該不難，以現在的科技來講就很簡單，有個camera、有個網路就可以了。"],["洪部長申翰：我想這不一定是技術上面的問題，但是我們可能要再研議，包括這裡面會有很多不同方面的委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開？"],["洪部長申翰：我不是這樣說，關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題，我想我還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要，所以並不是黑箱。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，也許之後的會議你們也可以徵詢一下，如果委員們沒意見，覺得可以，那麼我們還是希望朝向這方面來進行。"],["洪部長申翰：我想可以討論一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，討論一下。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝部長。","本日會議詢答全部結束；委員林德福、涂權吉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","行政院打算推動設立「主權基金」，媒體報導，「勞動部官員認為，勞工退休金與勞保基金的財源並非國家所有，而是來自廣大雇主與勞工，設立目的與「長期投資」的方向不同，不宜作為主權基金資金來源。」","請問勞動部代表，對於勞退基金與勞保基金是否該做為主權基金資金來源，勞動部的立場為何？","問題二","受美國關稅戰衝擊，據統計，截至四月底「新制勞退基金」，至帳面虧損1,305億元，平均每位勞工虧掉超過1萬元。另外，五月匯率急升，讓「勞動基金海外投資」又有「匯損」問題。","對此，部分勞工主張，勞工退休金應該開放自行選擇投資標的，110年11月「勞動部」辦理「勞工退休金開放自行選擇投資標的調查」，有43.4%的勞工贊成開放自選投資，贊成的原因，以「退休金屬我自己的，希望可以自行選擇投資標的運用」占31.2%最高。","對此，面對國際情勢動盪，勞動部是否仍不贊成，讓「勞工退休金開放自行選擇投資標的」？","問題三","勞工自提退休金6%的比率長年偏低，截至2024年第三季，自提退休金勞工117.5萬人，占比只有15.4%。","反觀高薪族和委任經理人等兩大族群因看準自提享有高分紅、免所得稅的好處，「提好提滿」的比率遠高於平均值。","行政院主計總處公布2023年工業及服務業全體受僱員工全年總薪資中位數為新台幣52.5萬元，請問勞動部，勞退自提6%比例長久以來偏低的主因為何？究竟是宣導不夠？還是與勞工普遍低薪，薪資沒有餘裕可以另外提撥有關？","問題四","媒體報導，勞動部將於今年第三季邀集勞資政學四方召開「最低工資審議會」，決定2026年最低工資。","外界預期明年最低工資一定會調漲，若明年調升3%，月薪將來到2萬9,450元。但許多民眾抱怨「薪資漲幅」跟不上「物價上漲」！生活成本壓力大，全民對「實質購買力」的焦慮與不安。","勞團主張明年最低工資月薪應調升至3.2萬元，本席建議勞動部，要多考慮勞工生活壓力，2026年最低工資應調升超過3萬元，不要因為政治考量，拖到2027年才放手讓最低工資超過3萬元。"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","根據美國人力資源顧問機構美世（Mercer）與特許金融協會（CFA）公布的「2024年Mercer CFA全球退休指數/Mercer CFA Institute Global Pension Index 2024報告」，台灣在48個國家中排名第39名，獲得C級評價，顯示整體制度亟需改善，排名甚至不如開發中國家的越南、巴西等國。","該報告凸顯出我國退休金制度的核心問題包括：勞保基金財務危機、退休所得替代率不足、勞工參與度偏低，以及制度設計過於複雜等等。而這些缺陷不僅影響勞工退休生活品質，也對國家財政造成長期壓力，需要政府、雇主與勞工共同面對並尋求解決方案。","當前，勞保基金正面臨嚴重的財務危機，雖然最新精算報告顯示破產時間從2028年延後到2031年，但這主要是因為政府連年撥補以及投保人數增加等暫時性因素。根據2024年勞保普通事故精算報告，勞保基金潛藏債務已達13.23兆元，相較於前次精算報告的10.29兆元大幅增加近3兆元。此外，根據勞動部統計，勞退新制的薪資水準與自提意願存在明顯關聯，薪資在11萬元以上的勞工，自提比率高達49.92%，而薪資在36,300元以下者，自提率僅6.24%，顯示收入較高的族群更有能力為退休做準備，相較之下，低薪族則難以負擔額外存款。","綜上可知，勞工保險老年給付面臨破產危機，而勞退新制出現兩極化的現象，以工作年資30年為例，勞保老年給付加上勞工退休金的所得替代率雖約為60%，但平均領取金額約2萬3,000元到2萬4,000元之間，相較其他職業別仍偏低，可預期中低薪受雇勞工的老年退休所得安全面臨雙重危機。而造成上述所得替代率偏低的部分原因在於勞保月投保薪資設有上限4萬5,800元，且該上限已近10年未調整。對於高薪資勞工而言，投保薪資上限限制使得退休金與實際薪資差距擴大，所得替代率反而更低。另外，投保薪資平均也低於軍公教甚多，進一步壓縮了勞工退休保障。","另外，勞保基金採隨收隨付、代間契約形式建構給付機制，而近年來我國人口結構邁向高齡化、少子化，進一步惡化勞保基金財務狀況，而勞保基金繳保費者減少、領勞保年金的人增加，將造成世代負擔失衡，讓民眾對於勞保財務安全失去信心。根據勞保局統計，勞保老年給付（非一次金）每月請領人數已由2010年11.8萬人，成長到2020年5月的132.2萬餘人，10年來人數增加超過11倍。","爰此，本席建請勞動部針對以下三方向進行制度革新、法律修正的研議","一、是否調高勞保條例投保薪資天花板？調高後的可能優缺點為何","二、如何進一步擴大被保險人強制納保範圍，如：五人以下微型契約受雇勞工、外籍家庭看護等，其可能優缺點為何","三、如何刺激受雇勞工增加勞退新制的自提誘因？他國有無可參考之作為？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}}