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556.555, \"end\": 556.695, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 556.695, \"end\": 556.835, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 556.835, \"end\": 557.015, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 557.015, \"end\": 557.635, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 557.635, \"end\": 558.155, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 558.155, \"end\": 558.175, \"score\": 0.113}]}, {\"start\": 559.677, \"end\": 568.305, \"text\": \"那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 559.677, \"end\": 559.857, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 559.857, \"end\": 559.977, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 559.977, \"end\": 560.177, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 560.177, \"end\": 560.317, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 560.317, \"end\": 560.498, \"score\": 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0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 578.274, \"end\": 578.394, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 578.394, \"end\": 578.734, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 578.734, \"end\": 578.935, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 578.935, \"end\": 579.095, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 579.095, \"end\": 579.255, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 579.255, \"end\": 579.435, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 579.435, \"end\": 579.676, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 579.676, \"end\": 579.856, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 579.856, \"end\": 580.016, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 580.016, \"end\": 580.156, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 580.156, \"end\": 580.897, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 580.897, \"end\": 581.117, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"事\", 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\"start\": 964.599, \"end\": 964.619, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 964.619, \"end\": 964.679, \"score\": 0.49}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 964.679, \"end\": 964.799, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 964.799, \"end\": 965.2, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"疏\", \"start\": 965.2, \"end\": 965.24, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 965.24, \"end\": 965.26, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 965.26, \"end\": 965.28, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,482 --> 00:00:31,348\n主席我要請這個主席長陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好\n\n2\n00:00:38,190 --> 00:01:05,501\n這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些\n\n3\n00:01:06,001 --> 00:01:11,386\n我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了\n\n4\n00:01:27,462 --> 00:01:43,488\n當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下\n\n5\n00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:56,490\n預算案經完成立法程序後由總統公佈之極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛沒錯嘛來接著來你看114份審預算的流程我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛被立法院否決3月21號請問這個總統有沒有公告\n\n6\n00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:19,170\n有沒有公告經過總統府公告嘛好我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫\n\n7\n00:02:24,895 --> 00:02:31,981\n金字第114號1140026191號中華民國1143611的公告這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款內容2500億1279萬元照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對這是總統府公告的內容\n\n8\n00:02:49,038 --> 00:03:14,992\n是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部\n\n9\n00:03:17,573 --> 00:03:29,404\n法律師法律師法治師對不起法治師法律師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師\n\n10\n00:03:40,314 --> 00:03:58,547\n也公佈了總統府也公佈了復譽他們又復譽總統府行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意我們說就是五年那後來後行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦\n\n11\n00:03:59,207 --> 00:04:25,521\n您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔\n\n12\n00:04:30,185 --> 00:04:47,324\n主計是你這樣是在主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛沒錯但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動\n\n13\n00:04:50,687 --> 00:05:08,207\n來通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後\n\n14\n00:05:08,948 --> 00:05:27,918\n立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎\n\n15\n00:05:33,741 --> 00:05:47,487\n法治司法治司司長紅司長所以總統府公布的東西照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整會不會請教一下按照法律\n\n16\n00:05:50,220 --> 00:06:08,682\n謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分\n\n17\n00:06:09,222 --> 00:06:36,600\n那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁\n\n18\n00:06:40,222 --> 00:07:05,322\n陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西\n\n19\n00:07:06,104 --> 00:07:20,202\n有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有\n\n20\n00:07:24,248 --> 00:07:37,586\n這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法\n\n21\n00:07:39,068 --> 00:07:56,745\n法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列\n\n22\n00:07:59,668 --> 00:08:21,400\n我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎\n\n23\n00:08:22,481 --> 00:08:37,466\n以後就讓你們自己自己這個我一共幹完了因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部\n\n24\n00:08:49,429 --> 00:09:18,175\n我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊\n\n25\n00:09:19,677 --> 00:09:28,305\n那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼\n\n26\n00:09:35,811 --> 00:09:44,561\n他當然就看違反的情況是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?\n\n27\n00:09:44,561 --> 00:09:49,026\n瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?\n\n28\n00:09:49,026 --> 00:09:49,227\n法律風險有吧?\n\n29\n00:09:51,349 --> 00:10:05,385\n公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法\n\n30\n00:10:09,249 --> 00:10:28,489\n只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任\n\n31\n00:10:30,311 --> 00:10:39,499\n應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說\n\n32\n00:10:41,593 --> 00:11:02,385\n常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊\n\n33\n00:11:04,192 --> 00:11:28,548\n只要經過三讀審議總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛也可以不遵守也可以自己改是不是應該不是我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法來內政部對不起主席我給你一點時間\n\n34\n00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:37,937\n所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦\n\n35\n00:11:55,353 --> 00:12:20,405\n跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛對吧\n\n36\n00:12:21,725 --> 00:12:36,911\n改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告\n\n37\n00:12:42,373 --> 00:12:53,461\n第26款第一項直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話總統有沒有公布這句話有公告但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用\n\n38\n00:13:03,899 --> 00:13:31,132\n總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句那你把那句話找出來總統公告說總統公告我要總統公告的好那我來再你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧\n\n39\n00:13:32,878 --> 00:14:02,038\n我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對兩千零七十六億來我們來看兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來所以\n\n40\n00:14:02,538 --> 00:14:16,476\n沒關係啦我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億中央部會減了440個縣市減了全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間\n\n41\n00:14:20,942 --> 00:14:25,047\n那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧\n\n42\n00:14:34,707 --> 00:14:52,593\n你你知道我的意思嗎你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27%你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出地方稅出只有3佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9對好啦就他只有佔3%對OK你們佔1點你們點你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔\n\n43\n00:15:02,759 --> 00:15:29,457\n好吧你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦\n\n44\n00:15:30,157 --> 00:15:50,310\n你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法\n\n45\n00:15:51,050 --> 00:16:05,280\n我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有沒有罪的沒有罪有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法好好沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8482\t31348\t主席我要請這個主席長 陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎 陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好\n38190\t65501\t這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些\n66001\t71386\t我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了\n87462\t103488\t當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下\n105880\t116490\t預算案經完成立法程序後 由總統公佈之 極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛 沒錯嘛 來 接著來你看114份審預算的流程 我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號 三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛 被立法院否決3月21號 請問這個總統有沒有公告\n128720\t139170\t有沒有公告 經過總統府公告嘛好 我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是 您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫\n144895\t151981\t金字 第114號 1140026191號 中華民國1143611的公告 這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府 一般性補助款內容 2500億1279萬元 照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對 這是總統府公告的內容\n169038\t194992\t是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部\n197573\t209404\t法律師 法律師 法治師 對不起法治師 法律師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師\n220314\t238547\t也公佈了 總統府也公佈了復譽 他們又復譽總統府 行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意 我們說就是五年那後來後 行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行 就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦\n239207\t265521\t您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔\n270185\t287324\t主計是 你這樣是在 主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下 因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛 沒錯 但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動\n290687\t308207\t來 通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後\n308948\t327918\t立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎\n333741\t347487\t法治司法治司司長 紅司長所以總統府公布的東西 照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整 會不會請教一下按照法律\n350220\t368682\t謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分\n369222\t396600\t那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁\n400222\t425322\t陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西\n426104\t440202\t有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有\n444248\t457586\t這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法\n459068\t476745\t法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列\n479668\t501400\t我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎\n502481\t517466\t以後就讓你們自己 自己這個我一共幹完了 因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部\n529429\t558175\t我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊\n559677\t568305\t那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼\n575811\t584561\t他當然就看違反的情況 是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?\n584561\t589026\t瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話 必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?\n589026\t589227\t法律風險有吧?\n591349\t605385\t公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法\n609249\t628489\t只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任\n630311\t639499\t應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說\n641593\t662385\t常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊\n664192\t688548\t只要經過三讀審議 總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛 也可以不遵守 也可以自己改是不是應該不是 我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法 來 內政部對不起 主席我給你一點時間\n690090\t697937\t所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦\n715353\t740405\t跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是 主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是 但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律 通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛 對吧\n741725\t756911\t改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告\n762373\t773461\t第26款 第一項 直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話 總統有沒有公布這句話有公告 但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討 然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用\n783899\t811132\t總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句 那你把那句話找出來總統公告說 總統公告 我要總統公告的好 那我來再 你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多 所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧\n812878\t842038\t我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對 兩千零七十六億來我們來看 兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係 你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六 你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來 所以\n842538\t856476\t沒關係啦 我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億 中央部會減了440個縣市減了 全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間\n860942\t865047\t那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧\n874707\t892593\t你 你知道我的意思嗎 你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27% 你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出 地方稅出只有3 佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9 對 好啦 就他 只有佔3%對 OK 你們佔1點 你們點 你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了 啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔\n902759\t929457\t好吧 你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦 我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難 我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好 哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛 可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛 還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦\n930157\t950310\t你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法\n951050\t965280\t我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎 也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛 對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有 沒有罪的沒有罪 有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是 我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法 好好 沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法 只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好 謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"主席我要請這個主席長 陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎 陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好\n這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些\n我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了\n當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下\n預算案經完成立法程序後 由總統公佈之 極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛 沒錯嘛 來 接著來你看114份審預算的流程 我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號 三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛 被立法院否決3月21號 請問這個總統有沒有公告\n有沒有公告 經過總統府公告嘛好 我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是 您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫\n金字 第114號 1140026191號 中華民國1143611的公告 這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府 一般性補助款內容 2500億1279萬元 照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對 這是總統府公告的內容\n是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部\n法律師 法律師 法治師 對不起法治師 法律師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師\n也公佈了 總統府也公佈了復譽 他們又復譽總統府 行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意 我們說就是五年那後來後 行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行 就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦\n您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔\n主計是 你這樣是在 主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下 因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛 沒錯 但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動\n來 通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後\n立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎\n法治司法治司司長 紅司長所以總統府公布的東西 照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整 會不會請教一下按照法律\n謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分\n那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁\n陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西\n有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有\n這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法\n法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列\n我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎\n以後就讓你們自己 自己這個我一共幹完了 因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部\n我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊\n那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼\n他當然就看違反的情況 是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?\n瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話 必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?\n法律風險有吧?\n公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法\n只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任\n應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說\n常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊\n只要經過三讀審議 總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛 也可以不遵守 也可以自己改是不是應該不是 我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法 來 內政部對不起 主席我給你一點時間\n所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦\n跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是 主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是 但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律 通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛 對吧\n改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告\n第26款 第一項 直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話 總統有沒有公布這句話有公告 但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討 然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用\n總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句 那你把那句話找出來總統公告說 總統公告 我要總統公告的好 那我來再 你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多 所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧\n我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對 兩千零七十六億來我們來看 兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係 你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六 你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來 所以\n沒關係啦 我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億 中央部會減了440個縣市減了 全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間\n那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧\n你 你知道我的意思嗎 你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27% 你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出 地方稅出只有3 佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9 對 好啦 就他 只有佔3%對 OK 你們佔1點 你們點 你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了 啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔\n好吧 你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦 我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難 我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好 哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛 可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛 還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦\n你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法\n我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎 也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛 對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有 沒有罪的沒有罪 有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是 我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法 好好 沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法 只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好 謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.482 --> 00:31.348\n主席我要請這個主席長陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好\n\n00:38.190 --> 01:05.501\n這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些\n\n01:06.001 --> 01:11.386\n我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了\n\n01:27.462 --> 01:43.488\n當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下\n\n01:45.880 --> 01:56.490\n預算案經完成立法程序後由總統公佈之極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛沒錯嘛來接著來你看114份審預算的流程我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛被立法院否決3月21號請問這個總統有沒有公告\n\n02:08.720 --> 02:19.170\n有沒有公告經過總統府公告嘛好我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫\n\n02:24.895 --> 02:31.981\n金字第114號1140026191號中華民國1143611的公告這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款內容2500億1279萬元照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對這是總統府公告的內容\n\n02:49.038 --> 03:14.992\n是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部\n\n03:17.573 --> 03:29.404\n法律師法律師法治師對不起法治師法律師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師法治師\n\n03:40.314 --> 03:58.547\n也公佈了總統府也公佈了復譽他們又復譽總統府行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意我們說就是五年那後來後行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦\n\n03:59.207 --> 04:25.521\n您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔\n\n04:30.185 --> 04:47.324\n主計是你這樣是在主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛沒錯但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動\n\n04:50.687 --> 05:08.207\n來通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後\n\n05:08.948 --> 05:27.918\n立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎\n\n05:33.741 --> 05:47.487\n法治司法治司司長紅司長所以總統府公布的東西照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整會不會請教一下按照法律\n\n05:50.220 --> 06:08.682\n謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分\n\n06:09.222 --> 06:36.600\n那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁\n\n06:40.222 --> 07:05.322\n陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西\n\n07:06.104 --> 07:20.202\n有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有\n\n07:24.248 --> 07:37.586\n這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法\n\n07:39.068 --> 07:56.745\n法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列\n\n07:59.668 --> 08:21.400\n我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎\n\n08:22.481 --> 08:37.466\n以後就讓你們自己自己這個我一共幹完了因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部\n\n08:49.429 --> 09:18.175\n我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊\n\n09:19.677 --> 09:28.305\n那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼\n\n09:35.811 --> 09:44.561\n他當然就看違反的情況是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?\n\n09:44.561 --> 09:49.026\n瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?\n\n09:49.026 --> 09:49.227\n法律風險有吧?\n\n09:51.349 --> 10:05.385\n公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法\n\n10:09.249 --> 10:28.489\n只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任\n\n10:30.311 --> 10:39.499\n應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說\n\n10:41.593 --> 11:02.385\n常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊\n\n11:04.192 --> 11:28.548\n只要經過三讀審議總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛也可以不遵守也可以自己改是不是應該不是我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法來內政部對不起主席我給你一點時間\n\n11:30.090 --> 11:37.937\n所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦\n\n11:55.353 --> 12:20.405\n跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛對吧\n\n12:21.725 --> 12:36.911\n改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告\n\n12:42.373 --> 12:53.461\n第26款第一項直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話總統有沒有公布這句話有公告但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用\n\n13:03.899 --> 13:31.132\n總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句那你把那句話找出來總統公告說總統公告我要總統公告的好那我來再你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧\n\n13:32.878 --> 14:02.038\n我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對兩千零七十六億來我們來看兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來所以\n\n14:02.538 --> 14:16.476\n沒關係啦我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億中央部會減了440個縣市減了全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間\n\n14:20.942 --> 14:25.047\n那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧\n\n14:34.707 --> 14:52.593\n你你知道我的意思嗎你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27%你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出地方稅出只有3佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9對好啦就他只有佔3%對OK你們佔1點你們點你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔\n\n15:02.759 --> 15:29.457\n好吧你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦\n\n15:30.157 --> 15:50.310\n你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法\n\n15:51.050 --> 16:05.280\n我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有沒有罪的沒有罪有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法好好沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.482,"end":31.348,"text":"主席我要請這個主席長 陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎 陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好"},{"start":38.19,"end":65.501,"text":"這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些"},{"start":66.001,"end":71.386,"text":"我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了"},{"start":87.462,"end":103.488,"text":"當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下"},{"start":105.88,"end":116.49,"text":"預算案經完成立法程序後 由總統公佈之 極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛 沒錯嘛 來 接著來你看114份審預算的流程 我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號 三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛 被立法院否決3月21號 請問這個總統有沒有公告"},{"start":128.72,"end":139.17,"text":"有沒有公告 經過總統府公告嘛好 我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是 您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫"},{"start":144.895,"end":151.981,"text":"金字 第114號 1140026191號 中華民國1143611的公告 這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府 一般性補助款內容 2500億1279萬元 照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對 這是總統府公告的內容"},{"start":169.038,"end":194.992,"text":"是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部"},{"start":197.573,"end":209.404,"text":"法律師 法律師 法治師 對不起法治師 法律師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師"},{"start":220.314,"end":238.547,"text":"也公佈了 總統府也公佈了復譽 他們又復譽總統府 行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意 我們說就是五年那後來後 行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行 就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦"},{"start":239.207,"end":265.521,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔"},{"start":270.185,"end":287.324,"text":"主計是 你這樣是在 主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下 因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛 沒錯 但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動"},{"start":290.687,"end":308.207,"text":"來 通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後"},{"start":308.948,"end":327.918,"text":"立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎"},{"start":333.741,"end":347.487,"text":"法治司法治司司長 紅司長所以總統府公布的東西 照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整 會不會請教一下按照法律"},{"start":350.22,"end":368.682,"text":"謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分"},{"start":369.222,"end":396.6,"text":"那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁"},{"start":400.222,"end":425.322,"text":"陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西"},{"start":426.104,"end":440.202,"text":"有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有"},{"start":444.248,"end":457.586,"text":"這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法"},{"start":459.068,"end":476.745,"text":"法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列"},{"start":479.668,"end":501.4,"text":"我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎"},{"start":502.481,"end":517.466,"text":"以後就讓你們自己 自己這個我一共幹完了 因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部"},{"start":529.429,"end":558.175,"text":"我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊"},{"start":559.677,"end":568.305,"text":"那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼"},{"start":575.811,"end":584.561,"text":"他當然就看違反的情況 是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?"},{"start":584.561,"end":589.026,"text":"瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話 必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?"},{"start":589.026,"end":589.227,"text":"法律風險有吧?"},{"start":591.349,"end":605.385,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法"},{"start":609.249,"end":628.489,"text":"只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任"},{"start":630.311,"end":639.499,"text":"應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說"},{"start":641.593,"end":662.385,"text":"常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊"},{"start":664.192,"end":688.548,"text":"只要經過三讀審議 總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛 也可以不遵守 也可以自己改是不是應該不是 我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法 來 內政部對不起 主席我給你一點時間"},{"start":690.09,"end":697.937,"text":"所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦"},{"start":715.353,"end":740.405,"text":"跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是 主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是 但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律 通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛 對吧"},{"start":741.725,"end":756.911,"text":"改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告"},{"start":762.373,"end":773.461,"text":"第26款 第一項 直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話 總統有沒有公布這句話有公告 但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討 然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用"},{"start":783.899,"end":811.132,"text":"總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句 那你把那句話找出來總統公告說 總統公告 我要總統公告的好 那我來再 你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多 所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧"},{"start":812.878,"end":842.038,"text":"我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對 兩千零七十六億來我們來看 兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係 你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六 你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來 所以"},{"start":842.538,"end":856.476,"text":"沒關係啦 我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億 中央部會減了440個縣市減了 全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間"},{"start":860.942,"end":865.047,"text":"那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧"},{"start":874.707,"end":892.593,"text":"你 你知道我的意思嗎 你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27% 你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出 地方稅出只有3 佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9 對 好啦 就他 只有佔3%對 OK 你們佔1點 你們點 你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了 啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔"},{"start":902.759,"end":929.457,"text":"好吧 你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦 我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難 我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好 哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛 可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛 還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦"},{"start":930.157,"end":950.31,"text":"你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法"},{"start":951.05,"end":965.28,"text":"我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎 也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛 對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有 沒有罪的沒有罪 有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是 我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法 好好 沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法 只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好 謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（13時47分）主席，我要請陳主計長、法務部法制司的洪司長、立法院預算中心的陳主任，還有我們金門縣的代表卓科長。"],["主席：請主計長、洪司長、陳主任、金門縣代表卓科長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我一位一位問，問到哪一位的時候請上來直接回答。今天大家討論的都是刪減636億是不是可以刪減、有沒有違法刪減，這是法律問題嘛，在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪，而且是法定的預算；民進黨說因為刪了這些預算，所以往地方政府刪是可以的，這是你們可以決定的空間，就是你們可以決定刪哪些，這是你們的處分空間，癥結點是在這裡。","我們先來看一下什麼叫法定預算，我請法務部的代表，等一下我要請教您，法制司長有來嘛，我們看這個法定預算是什麼意思？依照預算法的規定：我國政府會計年度於每年1月1日開始至同年12月31日終了，以當年之中華民國紀元年次為其年度名稱，並於會計年度開始4個月前，行政院應將彙編之中央政府總預算案與附屬單位預算及綜計表，提送立法院審議。請主計長，後面那一排紅的您唸一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：預算案經完成立法程序後由總統公布之，即為法定預算。"],["陳委員玉珍：即為法定預算，沒錯嘛。接著你看，114年審預算流程我們來回顧一下，我們是1月21號三讀通過總預算，對不對？3月12號你們覆議被立法院否決，請問3月21號總統有沒有公告？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：中央政府總預算要經過總統府公告嘛。我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼？總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎？總統府到底公告了什麼？我下面這個內容是總統府公告的內容，你看看對不對？這是總統府華總一經字第11400026191號公告，中華民國114年3月21日的公告，這是總統府公告的內容喔！它針對直轄市及縣市府一般性補助款內容2,501億1,279萬元，照列，這個是錯誤的嗎？你看我講的這個對不對？這是總統府公告的內容。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是總統府公告的內容？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是它也是公告要刪減636億啊……"],["陳委員玉珍：來！你先聽我講，我先問一下，所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了？總統通過的公告你可以改？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不得不改、我不得不改……"],["陳委員玉珍：你等一下，我先問你一下，如果總統府公告就是法定預算，所以行政院可不可以改總統府的公告？這個依法就包括法律啊！預算通過就是一個法律了，這個可以改嗎？來！請法務部法制司。"],["主席：法制司。"],["陳委員玉珍：總統府如果公告一個法律，我舉例啦！不管是預算，當然還有法律，比如說詐騙最重要判5年，行政院覺得5年太少了，我們立法院通過了，總統府也公布了，但行政院說5年太少，要10年，要覆議，我們都不同意，我們說就是5年，後來行政機關（法務部）執行的時候，司法院法官判的時候說不行，就是按照10年開始判，假設是最低刑，你了解我在說什麼嗎？就是總統府公布的預算，行政機關有權力去更動內容嗎？這是總統府公布的喔！我剛已經跟主計長確認過了，這是總統府公布的，內容寫照列喔！我們審預算並不是隨便審一堆，我們是每一款，包括什麼調整軍公教待遇99億、災害準備金50億照列、第二準備金多少照列，對不對？這個都是審過的喔！主計處你這樣是在打臉賴總統嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟委員報告一下，因為這裡面還有一個，就是通案刪減不低於939……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那是通案刪減，沒錯！那是通案刪減……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是這個一刪減，其他一定都會變動……"],["陳委員玉珍：通案刪減……"],["陳主計長淑姿：其他一定都會變動。"],["陳委員玉珍：來！通案刪減前面有一句話，除法定預算外，接著還有中央……剛剛很多委員都講過，不用重複，還說要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬，地方政府不算你們的所屬，你們要給地方的錢是法定預算，我只是想了解，我的意思是，以後立法院審預算有沒有效力啊？我們每一條都說要刪多少、要給你們多少、有沒有照列，看預算是多少，比如25億、多少億，像這一條明細表都有嘛！你們回去可以自己改喔？連總統公布的都可以改？我想問……"],["陳主計長淑姿：預算裡面的項目，我們都可以自行調整……"],["陳委員玉珍：我先問你，我剛剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這也是院會的審議結果，我們也是照這個來……"],["陳委員玉珍：來，請法制司洪司長，所以總統府公布的東西，照列的預算數也可以任意調？以後是不是所有預算都可以任意調整？我想請教一下，按照法律。"],["洪司長家原：謝謝委員。法務部法制司這邊的回應是這樣，針對預算案，如果經過審議的話，它當然具有拘束的效力，但是我剛才聽主計長的說法是，除了剛剛講的那個部分之外，它有一個併同的決議，就是有關於統刪的部分，當然它是依照相應的辦法來做酌予刪減，這個法務部必須要講，不論是依照地制法或者是財劃法，這都不是法務部主管的法令，是屬於內政部跟財政部主管的法令……"],["陳委員玉珍：內政部跟財政部？好，內政部上來。"],["洪司長家原：不好意思。"],["主席：請內政部吳次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：我再請教主計總處陳處長。這個一般性補助款，剛剛張委員講過，我不再講，這個是行政院國發會要配合精省，我想問你，行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時，有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表？主計總處在送出總預算的時候，這些書表有沒有附給我們？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有送啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有送？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有！"],["陳委員玉珍：你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來，有送嘛，對不對？好，你看一下你送的表裡頭，你的明細表裡頭有沒有寫要給地方政府補助多少？特別列出114年度預算中，共需2,501.13億，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個表是不是正確的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是你們送來給我們立法院審的時候，有送這個表，有告訴我們你們要給地方政府補助2501.13億，按照地方制度法，地方制度法就是法務部法制司說的，這是按照預算法的規定，編了一般性補助款是2,501.13億，這也是行政院送來給立法院審的表格喔！是支出明細喔！然後我們審完以後，我們說這個部分我們照列，我們不刪，我們不刪以後送回去給行政院，行政院再送去給總統公告，總統府也公告說照列，地方補助款不刪，所以以後總統公布的東西說照列，如果這一項可以這樣，那每一項都可以隨行政院自己覺得這個夠、那個不夠，那以後還要審預算嗎？以後就讓你們自己……這已經公告完了，因為我們說要通案刪減的是其他的部分，是中央政府及其所屬機關，你們又要在那個部分來……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們針對要刪減636億表示有困難嘛！但是立法院一直執意要……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我先講！有困難，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：針對有困難的部分，我們是表示真的有困難……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯，我理解、我理解……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這個部分最後沒有辦法，才不得不刪減一般性補助……"],["陳委員玉珍：有困難，我理解，來！法務部，昨天我看那個搶超商的，他說他生活上有困難，這樣有沒有犯法？"],["洪司長家原：什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：有困難啊！昨天有人在路上搶超商，說他沒有辦法，家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃，他一定要去搶超商，要搶兩個飯糰，有沒有違法？"],["洪司長家原：違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！有沒有困難是一回事嘛！你要不要依法做嘛？法律有沒有存在的意義嘛？對不對？我們立法院通過是中央各機關及其所屬啊，對不對？如果你有困難，你就按照一般的程序來追加嘛！我想再請問一下法務部，公務人員是不是要依法行政？"],["洪司長家原：公務人員要依法行政。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果沒有依法行政，在刑事上的效果是什麼？"],["洪司長家原：當然就看違反的情況是不是有任何的行政罰或是相關的罰則。"],["陳委員玉珍：刑事上有什麼效果，瀆職嗎？"],["洪司長家原：是不是構成犯罪的話，必須要有犯罪構成要件。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那是不是有這樣的風險？法律風險有吧？公務員如果沒有依法行政的話。"],["洪司長家原：要看相應的規定去推定……"],["陳委員玉珍：那我舉一個例子好了，最近沸沸揚揚的臺北市都更案，我看到一些公務員被叫去問，我想請問，我想一般百姓也想了解，他們被叫去問以後說，開會的時候都是這個長官的意思，如果長官違法指示、沒有依法指示，如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話，我不是指這個案子，如果在這個情況下，長官違法、不按照法律做，我們講誇張一點，長官叫你去偷錢好了，當然沒那麼誇張，但是意思……長官違法，很明確的違法，不按照法律，公務人員有沒有責任？聽話的公務人員有沒有責任？"],["洪司長家原：應該這樣講，在刑法第二十一條，依法令之行為不罰，但是在但書裡頭，如果長官的命令違法者則不在此限，意思是常任文官是一個相對服從義務，也就是說，針對長官的違法命令，他沒有辦法主張免責。"],["陳委員玉珍：他不能主張免責嘛？所以今天我要請各位，這邊在座的都是公務人員，總統公布的法律應該是有效力吧？法務部，總統公布的東西有沒有效力啊？"],["洪司長家原：只要經過三讀審議，經總統公布後施行，施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛，那也可以不遵守？也可以自己改，是不是？"],["洪司長家原：應該不是，我剛才聽主計總處的說法是按照地方制度法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢……來，內政部！對不起，主席，給我一點時間。"],["主席：內政部。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以地方制度法有說，如果總統公布說這個要給2,501億，但是主計處覺得不夠，它可以改成給它1,000億？可以嗎？有這一條嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，其實地方制度法第六十九條只有針對地方財政不一要均衡發展，所以我們對財力較差的部分應酌予補助啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！這是你們……"],["吳次長堂安：這個是裁量，這個跟主計總處那個不一樣啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：那沒關係嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：不是、不是，主計總處是針對公告的部分，就是立法院決議還要再自行扣減639億……"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，但不管立法院怎麼決議，最後一關是總統嘛？總統公告了，所以他剛剛說他是按照地方制度法，但這不是按照地方制度法，因為跟這個不相干，跟地方制度法不相干嘛？"],["吳次長堂安：地方制度法只是針對地方要不要酌予補助而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，跟通過的法律、通過的預算多少是不相干，不是地方制度法適用，對吧？改總統公告的預算跟地方制度法有沒有關係？"],["吳次長堂安：應該沒有改總統府公告的內容。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有改嗎？你再確認一下，你去問有沒有改。主計長，你再上來一下，看我寫的這個是我隨便污名的還是真的有，這張是真的嗎？總統府華總一經字第11400026191號公告，第26款第1項「直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2,501億1,279萬元，照列。」有沒有這一句話？總統有沒有公布這一句話？"],["許處長永議：有公告，但是也公告我們還要減636億，所以其他的都會檢討，然後我們是檢討這一項才會動到。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以總統公告是給你們參考用？"],["許處長永議：總統公告還要我們減636億，這也是在公告裡面的範圍。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪一句？你把那一句話找出來，我要總統公告的，你先找，再提供給我。我先問一下主計長，您剛剛說因為很辛苦，其實我理解你們很辛苦，就是在整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多，所以你們做不下去，只好往地方下手，因為很困難嘛！這是你剛剛的說法，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們就是刪減了2,076億。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我們來看，2,076億的其中1,000億是給台電的，跟這個沒關係，你知道嘛！所以你們就去減了地方的補助款636億，對不對？然後中央各部會最後……如果以現在的結果來看，其他的一千多億，就是1,076億，你們去減地方，而你們自己減了440億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：440億是指定項目刪減，所以對業務的推動有極大的困難。"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，沒關係啦！你們有困難我知道，我的意思是，我講的這個數字是正確的吧？沒有錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：台電1,000億、中央部會減了440億、各縣市全部的部分減了636億，你們一年的預算是3兆，減440億，我算過是1.5%，你們說刪很多、沒有空間；地方政府補助的是2,501億，你們刪減636億，是27%。你們減1.5%就哭到不行了，還要往下去砍，你們給地方減27%，你們要叫地方去跳樓嗎？你知道我的意思嗎？你們減1.5%就已經「哀爸叫母」了，但你們給地方減27%，你們是叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：636億只占地方歲出的……"],["陳委員玉珍：百分之多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3.9%而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：3.9%？好，它只有占這樣。你們占1.5%就受不了，他們是3.9%，是兩倍，他們受得了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是4.6%，因為我們主要是有包括……"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽得懂我的意思嗎？所以你們減得比地方還少，沒關係啦！我現在只是想跟你講，如果你們有困難，我們其實也是支持你們照那個程序去補、追加，已經執行到5月、6月了，知道哪些地方做得好、哪些地方做得不好，你們就追加過來嘛！做得好的繼續，可能要多一點；做不好就不要再做，還要節省。不是把地方政府當作肉票啦！您了解我的意思嗎？擄人勒索，真的是給人家這種感覺啦！這個部分你還是要回去好好思考，而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統，你畢竟是他派的主計長，你也跟他共事這麼久，一路把你提拔上來，你竟然修改他公告過的預算表，這個是很不應該啦！而且是違法，我想這個可能還有法律問題，好嗎？也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法，對不對？長官帶頭違法，下面如果跟著違法是有罪的，不是沒有沒有罪的，有責任的啊！好嗎？理解嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這個是沒有違法的啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有違法？好，沒關係啦！很多學者都說有違法，只有你說沒有違法，反正今天也要訴願了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，也請主計長從善如流，回去好好思考一下，謝謝。","下一位質詢請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}}