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00:00:39,935\n主席長您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎有沒有有沒有不要浪費我時間好OK你就詢問幾個你程序完全錯誤\n\n3\n00:00:49,912 --> 00:01:09,767\n你玩你應該這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪哪裡可以挪你沒有你沒有你這個就是程序不正義程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個請問你問了幾個\n\n4\n00:01:12,588 --> 00:01:41,909\n我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛\n\n5\n00:01:43,070 --> 00:02:09,153\n對不對對然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下妳是我學姊妳在成大兩年我在成大四年所以妳這樣做事我真的我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個\n\n6\n00:02:10,748 --> 00:02:26,070\n你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態\n\n7\n00:02:27,625 --> 00:02:44,207\n也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前\n\n8\n00:02:45,308 --> 00:03:03,702\n其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知\n\n9\n00:03:04,738 --> 00:03:26,085\n有我有參加你有接到通知你有參加就是黨團協商的部分要不要刪減這個部分這個有協商嗎不是喔我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵程序問題啊\n\n10\n00:03:27,165 --> 00:03:54,843\n因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢\n\n11\n00:03:56,116 --> 00:04:21,452\n今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案\n\n12\n00:04:26,655 --> 00:04:34,637\n協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嘛那一天實際的情況你們講啊\n\n13\n00:04:54,377 --> 00:05:08,948\n當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎\n\n14\n00:05:10,438 --> 00:05:38,921\n沒有啊前面不會請所有部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們那就是你們等於\n\n15\n00:05:40,770 --> 00:06:03,120\n不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的\n\n16\n00:06:04,762 --> 00:06:32,154\n因為沒有經過協商最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好表決所以我剛剛講嘛表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商沒有協商欸這個主席長你剛剛回答很多委員你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商你就說沒有辦法你這個在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講你會有責任我跟你講\n\n17\n00:06:35,114 --> 00:06:36,936\n你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣好謝謝行政委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7082\t8567\t謝謝主席 本席請主席長請主席長\n22439\t39935\t主席長 您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您 你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎 有沒有有沒有 不要浪費我時間好 OK 你就詢問幾個 你程序完全錯誤\n49912\t69767\t你玩 你應該 這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪 哪裡可以挪你沒有 你沒有你這個就是程序不正義 程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個 請問你問了幾個\n72588\t101909\t我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛\n103070\t129153\t對不對對 然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔 真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長 因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下 妳是我學姊妳在成大兩年 我在成大四年所以 妳這樣做事我真的 我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個\n130748\t146070\t你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態\n147625\t164207\t也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前\n165308\t183702\t其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知\n184738\t206085\t有我有參加你有接到通知你有參加就是黨團協商的部分要不要刪減這個部分這個有協商嗎不是喔我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵程序問題啊\n207165\t234843\t因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢\n236116\t261452\t今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案\n266655\t274637\t協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嘛那一天實際的情況你們講啊\n294377\t308948\t當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎\n310438\t338921\t沒有啊前面不會請所有部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對 應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們那就是你們等於\n340770\t363120\t不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的\n364762\t392154\t因為沒有經過協商 最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好 表決 所以我剛剛講嘛 表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商 沒有協商欸 這個 主席長你剛剛回答很多委員 你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商 你就說沒有辦法你這個 在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講 你會有責任 我跟你講\n395114\t396936\t你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣好謝謝行政委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 本席請主席長請主席長\n主席長 您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您 你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎 有沒有有沒有 不要浪費我時間好 OK 你就詢問幾個 你程序完全錯誤\n你玩 你應該 這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪 哪裡可以挪你沒有 你沒有你這個就是程序不正義 程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個 請問你問了幾個\n我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛\n對不對對 然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔 真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長 因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下 妳是我學姊妳在成大兩年 我在成大四年所以 妳這樣做事我真的 我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個\n你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態\n也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前\n其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知\n有我有參加你有接到通知你有參加就是黨團協商的部分要不要刪減這個部分這個有協商嗎不是喔我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵程序問題啊\n因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢\n今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案\n協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嘛那一天實際的情況你們講啊\n當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎\n沒有啊前面不會請所有部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對 應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們那就是你們等於\n不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的\n因為沒有經過協商 最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好 表決 所以我剛剛講嘛 表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商 沒有協商欸 這個 主席長你剛剛回答很多委員 你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商 你就說沒有辦法你這個 在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講 你會有責任 我跟你講\n你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣好謝謝行政委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.082 --> 00:08.567\n謝謝主席本席請主席長請主席長\n\n00:22.439 --> 00:39.935\n主席長您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎有沒有有沒有不要浪費我時間好OK你就詢問幾個你程序完全錯誤\n\n00:49.912 --> 01:09.767\n你玩你應該這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪哪裡可以挪你沒有你沒有你這個就是程序不正義程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個請問你問了幾個\n\n01:12.588 --> 01:41.909\n我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛\n\n01:43.070 --> 02:09.153\n對不對對然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下妳是我學姊妳在成大兩年我在成大四年所以妳這樣做事我真的我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個\n\n02:10.748 --> 02:26.070\n你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態\n\n02:27.625 --> 02:44.207\n也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前\n\n02:45.308 --> 03:03.702\n其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知\n\n03:04.738 --> 03:26.085\n有我有參加你有接到通知你有參加就是黨團協商的部分要不要刪減這個部分這個有協商嗎不是喔我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵程序問題啊\n\n03:27.165 --> 03:54.843\n因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢\n\n03:56.116 --> 04:21.452\n今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案\n\n04:26.655 --> 04:34.637\n協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嘛那一天實際的情況你們講啊\n\n04:54.377 --> 05:08.948\n當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎\n\n05:10.438 --> 05:38.921\n沒有啊前面不會請所有部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們那就是你們等於\n\n05:40.770 --> 06:03.120\n不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的\n\n06:04.762 --> 06:32.154\n因為沒有經過協商最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好表決所以我剛剛講嘛表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商沒有協商欸這個主席長你剛剛回答很多委員你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商你就說沒有辦法你這個在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講你會有責任我跟你講\n\n06:35.114 --> 06:36.936\n你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣好謝謝行政委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.082,"end":8.567,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請主席長請主席長"},{"start":22.439,"end":39.935,"text":"主席長 您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您 你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎 有沒有有沒有 不要浪費我時間好 OK 你就詢問幾個 你程序完全錯誤"},{"start":49.912,"end":69.767,"text":"你玩 你應該 這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪 哪裡可以挪你沒有 你沒有你這個就是程序不正義 程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個 請問你問了幾個"},{"start":72.588,"end":101.909,"text":"我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛"},{"start":103.07,"end":129.153,"text":"對不對對 然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔 真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長 因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下 妳是我學姊妳在成大兩年 我在成大四年所以 妳這樣做事我真的 我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個"},{"start":130.748,"end":146.07,"text":"你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態"},{"start":147.625,"end":164.207,"text":"也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前"},{"start":165.308,"end":183.702,"text":"其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知"},{"start":184.738,"end":206.085,"text":"有我有參加你有接到通知你有參加就是黨團協商的部分要不要刪減這個部分這個有協商嗎不是喔我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵程序問題啊"},{"start":207.165,"end":234.843,"text":"因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢"},{"start":236.116,"end":261.452,"text":"今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案"},{"start":266.655,"end":274.637,"text":"協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嘛那一天實際的情況你們講啊"},{"start":294.377,"end":308.948,"text":"當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎"},{"start":310.438,"end":338.921,"text":"沒有啊前面不會請所有部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對 應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們那就是你們等於"},{"start":340.77,"end":363.12,"text":"不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的"},{"start":364.762,"end":392.154,"text":"因為沒有經過協商 最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好 表決 所以我剛剛講嘛 表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商 沒有協商欸 這個 主席長你剛剛回答很多委員 你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商 你就說沒有辦法你這個 在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講 你會有責任 我跟你講"},{"start":395.114,"end":396.936,"text":"你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣好謝謝行政委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1308,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（14時22分）謝謝主席，本席請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主計長，您剛剛一直說636億不能刪了，本席想請問您，你有召集相關部會叫大家整個過來一起協調嗎？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為目前就是說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有？不要浪費我時間。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們是有詢問幾個啦！譬如說財政部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，你只有詢問幾個，你程序完全錯誤！636億叫做通案刪減，你就應該把各部會找來，大家討論到底誰可以挪、哪裡可以挪，但你沒有，你沒有，你就是程序不正義，程序錯誤！再來，你剛剛說有問幾個，請問你問了幾個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我有問財政部啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你只問財政部？所以大家要知道，我們真的要請在座的各地政府、其他各部會，包含媒體、網路的民眾要知道，通案刪減應該要召集各部會，但你問都沒問，就問個財政部。好啊！你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛，對不對？對。然後你沒有問，你剛剛就回答所有的立委說真的不能再刪了，怎麼有這樣做事的？主計長，因為我對您不熟，我還特別看了一下，你是我學姐耶！你在成大兩年，我在成大四年，所以你這樣做事我真的覺得很訝異，這是第一個。很明顯，我們行政單位就是有瑕疵。","再來，第二個，地方政府不該刪的，你這樣子給它刪減，這個剛剛很多委員講了，本席還要追究您的責任，因為立法院每年審查預算通案刪減是常態，也就是不管馬英九總統、陳水扁總統到蔡英文總統都是如此，為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況？原因在於通案刪減提出來之後，我們要三讀之前，其實立法院都會通知行政院，還有特別是你們財主單位、各部會要一起來協調。請問去年或者是今年1月，總之就是在我們預算三讀之前，你有沒有接到通知？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，我有參加啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你有收到通知？你有參加？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是黨團協商，要不要刪減這個部分，這個有協商啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是喔！我是指各部會，你們各部會有來嗎？本席知道的是要協調的時候，你們各部會沒有來協調，這就是最大的程序瑕疵、程序問題啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上我要跟委員報告，我們秘書長也有召開，就是針對計畫型補助能不能刪減，但是大家還是都沒有辦法刪減，所以計畫型的補助他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，不是叫做計畫型補助，你顧左右而言他！你現在又給我跳開了，我現在講的是我們在三讀，整個通案刪減三讀之前，大家都會找來好好的協調每一個案子怎麼樣刪減，但今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與，而且沒有進行這個必要的程序，所以才會出現這個問題。出現了這個問題之後，應該是各部會要刪減，但你們也沒刪減，所以才產生現在……你們竟然，你們是刻意，其實是惡意的丟給地方政府，然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算，藍白沒有亂刪預算，是你們該通案協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論。我是問主計長，我是問主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我請我們處長來答復啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分細節他很清楚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：公務預算處的處長，好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是有開協商會議，但是沒有共識啊，是這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：協商會議大家有來嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，但是沒有共識。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以問題就出在沒有共識，怎麼樣沒有共識，你說嘛！那一天實際的情況，你們講啊！"],["許處長永議：當時在討論的時候，因為三黨的說明……當然最後就是沒有結果嘛！沒有結果！"],["徐委員欣瑩：過去所有的行政單位都會來說明，你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎？沒有啊！"],["許處長永議：因為前面不會請所有的部會都來，前面應該是只有我們主計總處還有各黨團的總召、幹部先討論，到最後進行後面的協商程序，然後各部會才會進來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，應該要進行後面的協商程序嘛！"],["許處長永議：但是前面這一步就已經沒有共識了，後面就沒有召開了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼沒有共識？要刪這個為什麼沒有共識？那就是等於你們不買這個帳嘛，不應該啊！你們就應該要協調啊！所以從頭到尾行政單位每個部會就應該來協調，即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事，沒有做！所以千萬不要說藍白亂刪預算，藍白沒有亂刪預算，藍白的行為都是合法合理的。所以……"],["許處長永議：因為沒有經過協商，最後就是進到院會去表決，然後刪減這樣的數額……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以我剛剛講嘛，表決通過以後，你們各部會應該找來協商，但沒有協商。主計長，你剛剛回答很多委員都說沒有辦法，但你沒有召集大家過來協商就說沒有辦法，我跟你講，在國會這樣隨意亂答，你會有責任的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們是有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們根本就是用立場在講話。"],["陳主計長淑姿：有協商啦，但是協商都沒有被採納，事實上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是協商沒有被接納，而是你們沒有接納，因為我們就是刪636億啊！主計長，我真的很遺憾，你可能會有責任，就這樣，好。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。我補充說明，因為每一年審總預算我都有參加，第二輪的我都有參加，今年比較特別是因為在審查時候柯建銘就開始講古，他永遠就是這樣，以前都不會，以前都是照審，這次講古之後就變成不了了之，還是要找柯總召啦！","接著我們請徐巧芯委員、徐巧芯委員，徐巧芯委員不在。","王美惠改用書面；蘇清泉委員也是用書面。","廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","林思銘委員用書面。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員不在。","陳冠廷委員改用書面。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本日會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","委員邱鎮軍、林思銘、蘇清泉、王美惠、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}}