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10:38:41","影片長度":"00:12:23","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:26:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:38:41+08:00","duration":743,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"162249","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162249","tool":"pyannote","id":"162249-pyannote"},"job_id":"jUfPYeNoUgd48gFd","queued_at":"2025-06-05 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{\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 57.666, \"end\": 57.906, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 57.906, \"end\": 58.026, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 58.026, \"end\": 58.166, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 58.166, \"end\": 58.306, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 58.306, \"end\": 59.006, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 59.006, \"end\": 59.246, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 59.246, \"end\": 59.466, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 59.466, \"end\": 60.026, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 60.026, \"end\": 60.106, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 60.106, \"end\": 60.126, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 60.126, \"end\": 60.206, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 60.206, \"end\": 60.346, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 60.346, \"end\": 60.386, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 60.386, \"end\": 60.506, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.506, \"end\": 60.587, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 60.587, \"end\": 60.727, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 60.727, \"end\": 61.967, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 61.967, \"end\": 62.087, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 62.087, \"end\": 62.147, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.147, \"end\": 62.167, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 67.247, \"end\": 94.705, \"text\": \"那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 67.247, \"end\": 68.728, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 68.728, \"end\": 68.868, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 68.868, \"end\": 69.128, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 69.128, \"end\": 69.889, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 69.889, \"end\": 70.129, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 70.129, \"end\": 70.269, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 70.269, \"end\": 70.389, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 70.389, \"end\": 70.469, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 70.469, \"end\": 70.589, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 87.741, \"end\": 88.121, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 88.121, \"end\": 88.321, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"庇\", \"start\": 88.321, \"end\": 89.562, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 89.562, \"end\": 89.722, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 89.722, \"end\": 90.403, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 90.403, \"end\": 90.503, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 90.503, \"end\": 90.663, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 90.663, \"end\": 90.823, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 90.823, \"end\": 91.063, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 91.063, \"end\": 91.343, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 91.343, \"end\": 91.643, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 91.643, \"end\": 92.224, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"莊\"}, {\"word\": \"惠\", \"start\": 92.224, \"end\": 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0.667}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 267.789, \"end\": 267.889, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 267.889, \"end\": 268.089, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 268.089, \"end\": 268.189, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 268.189, \"end\": 268.249, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 268.249, \"end\": 268.409, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 268.409, \"end\": 268.569, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 268.569, \"end\": 268.689, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 268.689, \"end\": 268.829, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 268.829, \"end\": 268.989, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 268.989, \"end\": 269.15, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 269.15, \"end\": 269.33, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", 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這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的事 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 305.202, \"end\": 305.302, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 305.302, \"end\": 305.382, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 305.382, \"end\": 305.802, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 305.802, \"end\": 305.962, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 305.962, \"end\": 306.062, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 306.062, \"end\": 306.202, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 306.202, \"end\": 306.343, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 306.343, \"end\": 306.823, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 306.823, \"end\": 306.983, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 306.983, \"end\": 307.283, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 307.283, \"end\": 307.603, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 307.603, \"end\": 307.863, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 307.863, \"end\": 308.283, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 308.283, \"end\": 308.864, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 308.864, \"end\": 308.984, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 308.984, \"end\": 309.304, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 309.304, \"end\": 309.844, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 309.844, \"end\": 310.164, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 310.164, \"end\": 310.805, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 310.805, \"end\": 311.065, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 311.065, \"end\": 311.945, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 311.945, \"end\": 312.986, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"辯\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"辯\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 312.986, \"end\": 313.186, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 313.186, \"end\": 313.326, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 313.326, \"end\": 313.406, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 313.406, \"end\": 313.506, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 313.506, \"end\": 313.666, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 313.666, \"end\": 313.766, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 313.766, \"end\": 313.886, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 313.886, \"end\": 314.006, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 314.006, \"end\": 314.126, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 314.126, \"end\": 314.146, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 314.146, \"end\": 314.186, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 314.186, \"end\": 314.426, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 314.426, \"end\": 314.866, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 314.866, \"end\": 314.886, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}]}, {\"start\": 321.638, \"end\": 346.958, \"text\": \"最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 321.638, \"end\": 321.838, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 321.838, \"end\": 322.018, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 322.018, \"end\": 322.198, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 322.198, \"end\": 322.399, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 322.399, \"end\": 322.799, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 322.799, \"end\": 322.979, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 357.694, \"end\": 384.429, \"text\": \"但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 357.694, \"end\": 357.774, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 357.774, \"end\": 357.854, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 357.854, \"end\": 358.014, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 358.014, \"end\": 358.134, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 358.134, \"end\": 358.234, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 358.234, \"end\": 358.354, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"妥\", \"start\": 358.354, \"end\": 358.514, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 358.514, \"end\": 358.915, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 358.915, \"end\": 359.055, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 359.055, \"end\": 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739.662, \"end\": 740.483, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 740.483, \"end\": 740.503, \"score\": 0.002}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:17,066 --> 00:00:21,650\n主席各位同仁今天其實我們稍微設定這個議題\n\n2\n00:00:24,232 --> 00:00:42,281\n有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員\n\n3\n00:00:43,502 --> 00:01:02,167\n在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子的議題今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題\n\n4\n00:01:07,247 --> 00:01:34,705\n那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論\n\n5\n00:01:35,814 --> 00:01:59,442\n那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定又是第五個議題\n\n6\n00:02:00,322 --> 00:02:16,222\n所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題\n\n7\n00:02:21,992 --> 00:02:39,443\n副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是\n\n8\n00:02:41,175 --> 00:03:01,406\n要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年宪判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是\n\n9\n00:03:02,226 --> 00:03:29,195\n職業法官就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子\n\n10\n00:03:30,669 --> 00:03:51,598\n所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個\n\n11\n00:03:52,638 --> 00:04:18,905\n職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人\n\n12\n00:04:20,005 --> 00:04:30,010\n同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人\n\n13\n00:04:37,574 --> 00:05:04,253\n訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分\n\n14\n00:05:05,202 --> 00:05:14,886\n他也可以也要做意見陳述嘛這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論辯論科型的事他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁\n\n15\n00:05:21,638 --> 00:05:46,958\n最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分\n\n16\n00:05:47,899 --> 00:05:53,926\n一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個\n\n17\n00:05:57,694 --> 00:06:24,429\n但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計\n\n18\n00:06:25,630 --> 00:06:43,730\n跟委員報告就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼就是他的用意是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:44,591 --> 00:07:01,320\n就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分\n\n20\n00:07:03,441 --> 00:07:25,349\n這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個\n\n21\n00:07:28,090 --> 00:07:47,549\n所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對\n\n22\n00:07:50,455 --> 00:08:13,464\n其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的\n\n23\n00:08:15,799 --> 00:08:18,442\n這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式\n\n24\n00:08:31,175 --> 00:08:46,723\n那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁\n\n25\n00:08:48,206 --> 00:09:03,247\n這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的\n\n26\n00:09:04,790 --> 00:09:26,205\n在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明\n\n27\n00:09:29,327 --> 00:09:58,708\n在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引\n\n28\n00:10:03,804 --> 00:10:31,183\n跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準\n\n29\n00:10:32,123 --> 00:10:46,434\n這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度\n\n30\n00:10:47,615 --> 00:11:04,675\n那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則\n\n31\n00:11:05,984 --> 00:11:21,373\n的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們\n\n32\n00:11:22,313 --> 00:11:38,953\n院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼\n\n33\n00:11:39,861 --> 00:12:08,529\n好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠\n\n34\n00:12:09,912 --> 00:12:20,503\n我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17066\t21650\t主席各位同仁今天其實我們稍微設定這個議題\n24232\t42281\t有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員\n43502\t62167\t在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子的議題今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題\n67247\t94705\t那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論\n95814\t119442\t那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定又是第五個議題\n120322\t136222\t所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題\n141992\t159443\t副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是\n161175\t181406\t要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年宪判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是\n182226\t209195\t職業法官 就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子\n210669\t231598\t所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個\n232638\t258905\t職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人\n260005\t270010\t同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人\n277574\t304253\t訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛 他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分\n305202\t314886\t他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的事 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁\n321638\t346958\t最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分\n347899\t353926\t一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個\n357694\t384429\t但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計\n385630\t403730\t跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼\n404591\t421320\t就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分\n423441\t445349\t這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個\n448090\t467549\t所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對\n470455\t493464\t其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的\n495799\t498442\t這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式\n511175\t526723\t那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁\n528206\t543247\t這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的\n544790\t566205\t在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明\n569327\t598708\t在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引\n603804\t631183\t跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準\n632123\t646434\t這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度\n647615\t664675\t那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則\n665984\t681373\t的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們\n682313\t698953\t院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼\n699861\t728529\t好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠\n729912\t740503\t我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好\n","txt":"主席各位同仁今天其實我們稍微設定這個議題\n有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員\n在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子的議題今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題\n那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論\n那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定又是第五個議題\n所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題\n副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是\n要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年宪判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是\n職業法官 就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子\n所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個\n職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人\n同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人\n訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛 他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分\n他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的事 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁\n最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分\n一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個\n但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計\n跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼\n就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分\n這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個\n所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對\n其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的\n這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式\n那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁\n這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的\n在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明\n在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引\n跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準\n這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度\n那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則\n的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們\n院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼\n好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠\n我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.066 --> 00:21.650\n主席各位同仁今天其實我們稍微設定這個議題\n\n00:24.232 --> 00:42.281\n有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員\n\n00:43.502 --> 01:02.167\n在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子的議題今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題\n\n01:07.247 --> 01:34.705\n那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論\n\n01:35.814 --> 01:59.442\n那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定又是第五個議題\n\n02:00.322 --> 02:16.222\n所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題\n\n02:21.992 --> 02:39.443\n副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是\n\n02:41.175 --> 03:01.406\n要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年宪判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是\n\n03:02.226 --> 03:29.195\n職業法官就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子\n\n03:30.669 --> 03:51.598\n所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個\n\n03:52.638 --> 04:18.905\n職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人\n\n04:20.005 --> 04:30.010\n同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人\n\n04:37.574 --> 05:04.253\n訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分\n\n05:05.202 --> 05:14.886\n他也可以也要做意見陳述嘛這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論辯論科型的事他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁\n\n05:21.638 --> 05:46.958\n最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分\n\n05:47.899 --> 05:53.926\n一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個\n\n05:57.694 --> 06:24.429\n但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計\n\n06:25.630 --> 06:43.730\n跟委員報告就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼就是他的用意是什麼\n\n06:44.591 --> 07:01.320\n就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分\n\n07:03.441 --> 07:25.349\n這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個\n\n07:28.090 --> 07:47.549\n所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對\n\n07:50.455 --> 08:13.464\n其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的\n\n08:15.799 --> 08:18.442\n這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式\n\n08:31.175 --> 08:46.723\n那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁\n\n08:48.206 --> 09:03.247\n這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的\n\n09:04.790 --> 09:26.205\n在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明\n\n09:29.327 --> 09:58.708\n在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引\n\n10:03.804 --> 10:31.183\n跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準\n\n10:32.123 --> 10:46.434\n這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度\n\n10:47.615 --> 11:04.675\n那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則\n\n11:05.984 --> 11:21.373\n的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們\n\n11:22.313 --> 11:38.953\n院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼\n\n11:39.861 --> 12:08.529\n好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠\n\n12:09.912 --> 12:20.503\n我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.066,"end":21.65,"text":"主席各位同仁今天其實我們稍微設定這個議題"},{"start":24.232,"end":42.281,"text":"有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":43.502,"end":62.167,"text":"在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子的議題今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題"},{"start":67.247,"end":94.705,"text":"那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要啦像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論"},{"start":95.814,"end":119.442,"text":"那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定又是第五個議題"},{"start":120.322,"end":136.222,"text":"所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題"},{"start":141.992,"end":159.443,"text":"副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是"},{"start":161.175,"end":181.406,"text":"要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年宪判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是"},{"start":182.226,"end":209.195,"text":"職業法官 就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子"},{"start":210.669,"end":231.598,"text":"所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個"},{"start":232.638,"end":258.905,"text":"職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人"},{"start":260.005,"end":270.01,"text":"同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人"},{"start":277.574,"end":304.253,"text":"訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛 他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分"},{"start":305.202,"end":314.886,"text":"他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的事 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁"},{"start":321.638,"end":346.958,"text":"最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分"},{"start":347.899,"end":353.926,"text":"一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個"},{"start":357.694,"end":384.429,"text":"但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計"},{"start":385.63,"end":403.73,"text":"跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼"},{"start":404.591,"end":421.32,"text":"就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分"},{"start":423.441,"end":445.349,"text":"這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個"},{"start":448.09,"end":467.549,"text":"所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對"},{"start":470.455,"end":493.464,"text":"其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的"},{"start":495.799,"end":498.442,"text":"這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式"},{"start":511.175,"end":526.723,"text":"那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁"},{"start":528.206,"end":543.247,"text":"這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的"},{"start":544.79,"end":566.205,"text":"在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明"},{"start":569.327,"end":598.708,"text":"在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引"},{"start":603.804,"end":631.183,"text":"跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準"},{"start":632.123,"end":646.434,"text":"這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度"},{"start":647.615,"end":664.675,"text":"那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則"},{"start":665.984,"end":681.373,"text":"的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們"},{"start":682.313,"end":698.953,"text":"院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼"},{"start":699.861,"end":728.529,"text":"好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠"},{"start":729.912,"end":740.503,"text":"我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時26分）主席、各位同仁。今天召委設定這個議題，其實有很多很多問題可以談，有一部分在於，就目前社會民眾的情緒，也有更多部分是專業法律的探討，剛剛我是滿佩服莊瑞雄委員，目前虐童刑度調整的部分，就學術上面有一些不同的考慮，他在這邊提出來。我也覺得這樣子的議題，今天這個主題值得大家好好討論，其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間，才有辦法討論這麼多的議題。我也覺得這個議題其實真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要，怎麼會這種議題在這裡說哪一個黨都有提，哪一個黨都沒有提案、哪一個委員沒有提案，好像扣上說沒有提案就是支持虐童犯、沒有提案就是包庇，這種都沒有必要，像剛才莊瑞雄委員就非常清楚地就學理上面來討論。","除了虐童案刑度的修法，今天另外併案討論的、所列主題其實一個一個的問題都有很多可以討論，包括法官就死刑量刑準則；被害影響陳述，這是第二個議題；包括教化可能性、復歸社會可能性，這又是一個議題、第三個議題；第四個議題，量刑前社會調查；甚至鑑定，又是第五個議題。每一個議題其實都很值得討論，我剩下的時間真的很少，不過我還是在這裡儘量地想跟司法院副秘書長討論一下這些問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我剛剛所列出的幾個問題，我一個一個來跟副秘書長討論。有關死刑量刑準則，事實上依照國民法官法第五條，目前如果是要判死刑的案件，事實上都一定有國民法官參審，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是嘛！對。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：113年憲判字第8號提出，判處死刑應經合議庭法官一致決。「合議庭法官一致決」，它指的是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：職業法官，就是沒有包括國民法官。"],["沈委員發惠：不包括國民法官，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以是職業法官裡面。那按照國民法官法，目前第八十三條之一，有罪之認定，要達三分之二以上。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：量刑部分是半數以上就可以，但有罪之認定，要達三分之二以上。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是如果要判處死刑的話，6名國民法官加上3個職業法官，總共9個人，9個人裡面要判處死刑是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：3加3。"],["沈委員發惠：3加3嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對！"],["沈委員發惠：就是要6……"],["王副秘書長梅英：至少要3加3。"],["沈委員發惠：至少要6票以上同意，就是9席裡面要6票以上同意，但是這6票裡面，3個職業法官必須一致同意，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以不是這個憲判出來之後，一定要9個人全部一致同意才可以判死刑，不是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我想應該在這裡先釐清。所以也就是說，目前這個制度、113年憲判第8號並不是說要全部的，包括國民法官和職業法官加起來全部統統一致決才可以判死刑，不是！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：9個人裡面有6個人同意就可以判死刑了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這個我想要在這裡先說明。","今天所要討論的第二個問題是有關被害影響陳述的問題。事實上被害影響陳述是訴訟參與人意見陳述裡面的一個部分，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：對嘛！它整個是訴訟參與人的意見陳述。在訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面，其實還分成不同的部分，不是光講一個被害影響陳述，而是還有證據調查的部分，證據調查就可以做意見陳述，這是第一個；第二個是有關被害情感的部分，他也要做意見陳述，這是第二種意見陳述……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：第三個是有關科刑的辯論……"],["王副秘書長梅英：科刑範圍……"],["沈委員發惠：辯論科刑的時候又有第三個意見陳述的機會。","最主要是說，實務上常常在證據調查過程中就夾雜情緒性和主觀性的意見，雖然我們剛剛說學理上有這三種意見陳述，但事實上國民法官沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述、被害感情的意見陳述，還是科刑辯論的意見陳述，一般的國民法官沒有辦法區分現在的意見陳述到底是屬於哪一種。但是如果沒有妥善區分或真正區分這三種不同的意見陳述，事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響。請問司法院現在有沒有針對訴訟參與人意見陳述方式設計一個明確的引導規範和實務的指引，來確保國民法官在審判過程中對這些不同意見陳述的認知，以及它的秩序跟它的正當性？你們有沒有這樣的設計？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，在國民法官案件實際審理的時候，每一個程序階段的先前跟之後，審判長都會告訴這些國民法官這個人，譬如這個被害人現在講的這段話，他的評價是什麼，就是他的用意是什麼，也就是它的休息時間會比一般職業法官審理的案件要來得多。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分職業法官必須有相當程度的說明和引導，才能讓國民法官理解目前這些陳述到底是屬於證據的陳述、被害情感的陳述，還是量刑的陳述，這些都要引導啦！這個部分是有關被害影響陳述的部分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：今天的第三個議題是有關教化可能性和復歸社會可能性，這也是列在今天議程上面的議題。所謂的教化可能性在法學上面一直都頗有爭議，雖然最高法院97年度台上字第5968號判決裡面所確立的教化可能性實務上已經被大量引用，但是卻沒有立法和制度的標準，對不對？如何衡量教化可能性？目前在我國的法制並沒有標準化，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性。"],["沈委員發惠：對，其實社會復歸可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：但事實上現在實務上大部分都用「教化可能性」，而且事實上並沒有標準，也就是教化可能性目前沒有一個標準的規範。我們來參考德國和日本，事實上德國和日本是有標準規範的，德國有一個HCR-20，簡單講，德國有一個行為預測的鑑定模式，日本則有一個法定的矯正可能性報告，必須要有這個報告，這些都是德國和日本對復歸社會可能性、教化可能性所建立的標準，而我國目前是沒有的。而且我剛剛所講的德國和日本，他們對教化可能性鑑定制度的拘束力是很強的。在我國，最後的鑑定報告只是供法院參酌使用而已。在德國，無論是否採取鑑定的意見，都必須具體說明理由，我國則不用，我國只是參考而已，法官最後要不要採信這個鑑定報告並不用說明，德國則要說明，包括為什麼鑑定出來是這樣、為什麼採用、為什麼不採用，都必須敘明。日本也是，他們的法官必須向裁判員（國民法官）說明鑑定的意義和適用方式，這在日本是要說明的，我國目前沒有。現在司法院有一個「法官對國民法官之指示參考手冊」，可是我發現裡面並沒有針對這個部分有所規定，司法院是不是可以考慮把我剛剛講的這個部分納入相關的參考指引？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這部分我請廳長來說明。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。跟委員報告一下，對量刑前鑑定的部分，我們現在有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估手冊，對於相關鑑定的內容和操作方式，主要是針對刑法第五十七條第四款、第五款、第六款和第十款……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，但我現在是在講復歸社會可能性和教化可能性的衡量標準……"],["李廳長釱任：這個我們……"],["沈委員發惠：事實上這牽涉到我們今天接下來的立法，大家對於這到底是有教化可能性還是沒有教化可能性、這為什麼不判他死刑，這是同樣的問題，這個部分目前我國沒有法制化和標準化。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我希望能夠建立制度。","因為時間的關係，有關量刑前的社會調查是刑法第五十七條第七款至第十款的部分，後面我本來還有很多學術性的問題想跟你們討論，包括推動量刑準則的建立在司改國是會議裡面是有共識的，而司法院過去也有推動量刑準則，在實踐上做了很多事情，在110年12月的司法院院會也通過刑事案件妥適量刑法草案並函送立法院審議，但是因為屆期不連續，這個案子就沒有了，這一屆你們也沒有再送。這個部分是不是請副秘書長說明一下，有關推動量刑準則的部分，你們接下來的努力方向是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。這個部分就如同委員所說的，在屆期不連續之後就回到司法院繼續研議，事實上這主要有兩個方向，一個是有關要成立量刑準則委員會，因為在原來的設計當中，它是一個獨立的二級機構，各方對此有不同的意見……"],["沈委員發惠：既然上一屆你們已經把草案送立法院，再研議之後是不是至少能在半年內提出一個書面報告，說明目前研議的成果和未來推動的時程？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，是的。"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位請張智倫委員。張智倫委員、張智倫委員。","接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}}