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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 569.694, \"end\": 569.854, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 569.854, \"end\": 571.054, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 571.054, \"end\": 571.455, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 571.455, \"end\": 571.615, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 571.615, \"end\": 571.635, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,380 --> 00:00:15,230\n好謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係坐得好記得開麥克風\n\n2\n00:00:18,459 --> 00:00:36,674\n那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速\n\n3\n00:00:37,859 --> 00:00:56,557\n趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢\n\n4\n00:00:58,706 --> 00:01:18,644\n因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來\n\n5\n00:01:19,204 --> 00:01:36,709\n就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障\n\n6\n00:01:37,890 --> 00:01:54,592\n處理程序課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正\n\n7\n00:01:55,332 --> 00:02:09,285\n對不對對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是\n\n8\n00:02:10,606 --> 00:02:37,909\n在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了\n\n9\n00:02:38,289 --> 00:03:00,123\n一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個\n\n10\n00:03:03,465 --> 00:03:21,617\n各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情\n\n11\n00:03:22,538 --> 00:03:43,628\n叫做官官相護這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用保訓會就是官官相護負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭進行相關的申訴救濟的時候也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的我說說的也會給說的\n\n12\n00:03:46,489 --> 00:04:04,250\n這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護\n\n13\n00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:25,182\n那委員報告這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的因為\n\n14\n00:04:27,183 --> 00:04:48,291\n這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況\n\n15\n00:04:48,891 --> 00:05:06,278\n但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年\n\n16\n00:05:07,388 --> 00:05:22,964\n彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查\n\n17\n00:05:23,544 --> 00:05:43,848\n好那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告\n\n18\n00:05:48,329 --> 00:06:01,877\n保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法\n\n19\n00:06:05,679 --> 00:06:31,655\n有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎\n\n20\n00:06:34,372 --> 00:06:47,440\n資料庫人才庫是公開的實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊\n\n21\n00:06:54,577 --> 00:07:10,755\n報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後\n\n22\n00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:29,314\n在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的\n\n23\n00:07:29,774 --> 00:07:50,834\n所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫\n\n24\n00:07:51,314 --> 00:08:10,448\n好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定\n\n25\n00:08:13,208 --> 00:08:36,153\n是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢\n\n26\n00:08:37,134 --> 00:08:48,569\n兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制\n\n27\n00:08:49,369 --> 00:09:07,222\n那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致\n\n28\n00:09:08,322 --> 00:09:31,635\n有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好謝謝你謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6380\t15230\t好 謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係 坐得好記得開麥克風\n18459\t36674\t那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速\n37859\t56557\t趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢\n58706\t78644\t因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來\n79204\t96709\t就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障\n97890\t114592\t處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正\n115332\t129285\t對不對 對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是\n130606\t157909\t在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了\n158289\t180123\t一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個\n183465\t201617\t各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情\n202538\t223628\t叫做官官相護 這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用 保訓會就是官官相護 負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭 進行相關的申訴救濟的時候 也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的 我說說的也會給說的\n226489\t244250\t這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護\n245236\t265182\t那委員報告 這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個 這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的 因為\n267183\t288291\t這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況\n288891\t306278\t但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年\n307388\t322964\t彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查\n323544\t343848\t好 那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告\n348329\t361877\t保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法\n365679\t391655\t有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎\n394372\t407440\t資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊\n414577\t430755\t報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後\n431960\t449314\t在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的\n449774\t470834\t所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫\n471314\t490448\t好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定\n493208\t516153\t是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢\n517134\t528569\t兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制\n529369\t547222\t那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致\n548322\t571635\t有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係 坐得好記得開麥克風\n那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速\n趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢\n因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來\n就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障\n處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正\n對不對 對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是\n在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了\n一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個\n各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情\n叫做官官相護 這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用 保訓會就是官官相護 負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭 進行相關的申訴救濟的時候 也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的 我說說的也會給說的\n這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護\n那委員報告 這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個 這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的 因為\n這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況\n但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年\n彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查\n好 那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告\n保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法\n有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎\n資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊\n報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後\n在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的\n所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫\n好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定\n是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢\n兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制\n那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致\n有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.380 --> 00:15.230\n好謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係坐得好記得開麥克風\n\n00:18.459 --> 00:36.674\n那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速\n\n00:37.859 --> 00:56.557\n趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢\n\n00:58.706 --> 01:18.644\n因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來\n\n01:19.204 --> 01:36.709\n就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障\n\n01:37.890 --> 01:54.592\n處理程序課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正\n\n01:55.332 --> 02:09.285\n對不對對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是\n\n02:10.606 --> 02:37.909\n在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了\n\n02:38.289 --> 03:00.123\n一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個\n\n03:03.465 --> 03:21.617\n各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情\n\n03:22.538 --> 03:43.628\n叫做官官相護這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用保訓會就是官官相護負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭進行相關的申訴救濟的時候也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的我說說的也會給說的\n\n03:46.489 --> 04:04.250\n這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護\n\n04:05.236 --> 04:25.182\n那委員報告這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的因為\n\n04:27.183 --> 04:48.291\n這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況\n\n04:48.891 --> 05:06.278\n但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年\n\n05:07.388 --> 05:22.964\n彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查\n\n05:23.544 --> 05:43.848\n好那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告\n\n05:48.329 --> 06:01.877\n保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法\n\n06:05.679 --> 06:31.655\n有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎\n\n06:34.372 --> 06:47.440\n資料庫人才庫是公開的實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊\n\n06:54.577 --> 07:10.755\n報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後\n\n07:11.960 --> 07:29.314\n在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的\n\n07:29.774 --> 07:50.834\n所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫\n\n07:51.314 --> 08:10.448\n好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定\n\n08:13.208 --> 08:36.153\n是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢\n\n08:37.134 --> 08:48.569\n兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制\n\n08:49.369 --> 09:07.222\n那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致\n\n09:08.322 --> 09:31.635\n有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好謝謝你謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.38,"end":15.23,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係 坐得好記得開麥克風"},{"start":18.459,"end":36.674,"text":"那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速"},{"start":37.859,"end":56.557,"text":"趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢"},{"start":58.706,"end":78.644,"text":"因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來"},{"start":79.204,"end":96.709,"text":"就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障"},{"start":97.89,"end":114.592,"text":"處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正"},{"start":115.332,"end":129.285,"text":"對不對 對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是"},{"start":130.606,"end":157.909,"text":"在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了"},{"start":158.289,"end":180.123,"text":"一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個"},{"start":183.465,"end":201.617,"text":"各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情"},{"start":202.538,"end":223.628,"text":"叫做官官相護 這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用 保訓會就是官官相護 負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭 進行相關的申訴救濟的時候 也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的 我說說的也會給說的"},{"start":226.489,"end":244.25,"text":"這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護"},{"start":245.236,"end":265.182,"text":"那委員報告 這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個 這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的 因為"},{"start":267.183,"end":288.291,"text":"這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況"},{"start":288.891,"end":306.278,"text":"但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年"},{"start":307.388,"end":322.964,"text":"彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查"},{"start":323.544,"end":343.848,"text":"好 那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":348.329,"end":361.877,"text":"保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法"},{"start":365.679,"end":391.655,"text":"有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎"},{"start":394.372,"end":407.44,"text":"資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊"},{"start":414.577,"end":430.755,"text":"報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後"},{"start":431.96,"end":449.314,"text":"在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的"},{"start":449.774,"end":470.834,"text":"所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫"},{"start":471.314,"end":490.448,"text":"好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定"},{"start":493.208,"end":516.153,"text":"是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢"},{"start":517.134,"end":528.569,"text":"兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制"},{"start":529.369,"end":547.222,"text":"那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致"},{"start":548.322,"end":571.635,"text":"有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時36分）謝謝主席。請教一下保訓會主委，要修這個法，過去當然有一些爭議，希望是不是跟職安法一起來處理。這一次特別把它拉到公務人員保障法來處理，如果我的理解沒有錯，目的就是加速、趕快把公務體系比如霸凌這些課題，能夠有一些懲戒的機制，甚至有相關的救濟機制。我的理解是對的嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：勞動部的看法呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為勞動部目前也有將職場霸凌的部分納入，但整個保障法是基於院長在大院行使同意權的時候所做出的承諾。此外，憲法增修條文第六條規定，考試院所掌理的保障本來就是考試院應該要很積極、當責去做的事情，所以我們在這個修法的過程當中，跟勞動部主要的互動就是儘可能讓雙方的……有關於……他們是對私部門的勞工，我們是對政府部門公務人員相關的保障、處理程序、課責，還有包含相關的罰則等等，都儘可能的一致。"],["王委員義川：除了保障法，院裡也有一個安衛辦法嘛？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["王委員義川：可不可以大概講一下修正的主要內容涵蓋哪些？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。安全及衛生防護辦法這次的修正是相當大幅度的，第一個是前年跟去年有關消防法的部分，雖然已經納入了消防法專章，但是我們也一併把高風險職務以一個專節特別在處理。這個部分主要就是屬於安檢跟辦公場所執行職務相關的設備等等。第二個部分當然就是這次大家最關心的不法侵害，不法侵害這一章特別做了一個有關職場霸凌的專節，在這個專節裡面我們完成了整個架構，因為行政機關最重要的特色就是逐級高密度的監督，所以從主管機關開始設安全及衛生防護諮詢會。再來，各機關必須設安全防護委員會，這裡面不管是性別或者外部人員，都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一。"],["王委員義川：可是針對你剛剛講的這些機制，保訓會經常會被質疑一件事情，我們也會接到陳情，叫做官官相護。在這個機制上，現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以杜絕外面這樣的疑慮？就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用，保訓會就是官官相護，護著我的長官，所以我進來這裡進行相關申訴、救濟也沒用，保訓會沒什麼聽我說，我說一說都是多說的。保訓會也應該有聽過這樣的說法。接下來像公務人員保障法的修法，怎麼樣在這樣的機制能夠防範，譬如被霸凌最後還是出現官官相護？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：官官相護就目前的機制不會有，因為這是信任問題，為了解決這個信任問題，所以我們在這一次保障法跟安衛辦法的修法，第一個、所謂的官官相護其實不會發生，因為被霸凌的人對機關申訴，或者被機關首長霸凌必須向上級機關申訴，他不服以後到了保訓會再申訴，保訓會整個審議是非常公正、客觀的，所以並不會出現所謂官官相護的情況。但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加放心，所以我們有在安衛辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督這兩章裡面特別設計，保訓會會要求各主管機關每年彙整安衛跟霸凌的案件數，如果有異常，我們會再去抽查；此外，如果保訓會接獲申訴，我們自己也可以主動進行調查。"],["王委員義川：好，你們後續會成立相關的委員會嘛，剛剛有提到外部專家。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：我想請問一下，這是一個專家庫的概念？還是一聘一年，就是這幾個人？還是每一次案子就由保訓會去處理專家的部分？比如說一次5個專家、幾個專家進來，現在的設計會是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，保訓會將來在調查這些因果關係的審議小組會依照案件性質，還有這個公務人員是屬於什麼職系，因為這會涉及到有沒有違反職場霸凌及安衛辦法的界定，所以他不是像委員所講的是專任的、一聘聘多久，不是，我們會用的是人才庫的概念，每一次根據不同的案件需求，會邀請、聘請不同的專業，這樣比較能夠符合當事人真正的現場了解。"],["王委員義川：好，那這些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎？資料庫也就是人才庫是公開資訊嗎？就是實際上審議未必要公開，可是這個部分，外界總會覺得說你們到底聘的是不是專家、是否能符合實際的狀況，所以這個人才資料庫會是公開資訊嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：報告委員，目前我們規劃會是公開資訊，因為不只是保訓會在組成審議小組調查案件時需要，其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來安衛辦法上路以後，在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會時，也需要大量的外部專家學者，而且這個範圍包含很多領域，心理的、法律的、治理的，還有諮商的。我們現在正在擬人才庫設置辦法當中，未來這些願意成為我們專家人才庫的，當然我們會經過訓練、挑選，這會是一個公開的，因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫。"],["王委員義川：好。最後請教一下，有關這個保障法，我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員，他們是勞保，也在這個規範裡頭嗎？還是一個單位、一個機關裡面就是有兩組人，這一組人是適用這個，另外一組則適用勞動部相關的環安衛的規定？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，跟委員報告，這就是這次我們跟勞動部的共同默契，我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要讓任何一個人被漏掉，所以本來政府機關裡面適用職安法的這些人，在霸凌的申訴程序，申訴的部分以及調查的部分，兩邊的制度、程序就是一套，所以我們在第一百零二條就會加上準用，但因為他的身分別不同，後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制。"],["王委員義川：那一個機關不就要有兩套制度？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前機關裡面就是這樣，因為他的身分別還有跟機關的契約關係是不一樣的，現況也是這樣進行，但我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致，有往前走了一大步。"],["王委員義川：OK。就是最開始的那一段，也就是申訴的機制……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，申訴、防治都是一致的。"],["王委員義川：是一致的，只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：救濟不一樣。"],["王委員義川：如果這個救濟的路徑先擬定了，勞動部的相關法規也跟上來了，這樣整個就會比較完整。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}