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那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 572.628, \"end\": 573.892, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 573.892, \"end\": 574.233, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 574.233, \"end\": 574.494, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 574.494, \"end\": 574.655, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 574.655, \"end\": 574.875, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 574.875, \"end\": 575.056, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 575.056, \"end\": 575.577, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 575.577, \"end\": 575.858, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 575.858, \"end\": 576.26, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 576.26, \"end\": 576.44, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 576.44, \"end\": 576.52, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 576.52, \"end\": 576.54, \"score\": 0.989}]}, {\"start\": 578.05, \"end\": 606.586, \"text\": \"當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 578.05, \"end\": 578.43, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 578.43, \"end\": 578.59, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 578.59, \"end\": 578.67, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 578.67, \"end\": 578.79, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 578.79, \"end\": 578.991, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 578.991, \"end\": 579.631, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 579.631, \"end\": 579.771, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 579.771, \"end\": 579.871, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 579.871, \"end\": 580.011, \"score\": 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00:01:57,327\n所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那\n\n6\n00:02:01,849 --> 00:02:16,098\n好那沒關係喔那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長有沒有這個規範\n\n7\n00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:34,318\n我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假\n\n8\n00:02:34,818 --> 00:02:50,885\n那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告\n\n9\n00:02:51,345 --> 00:03:05,232\n好的這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好謝謝\n\n10\n00:03:06,713 --> 00:03:30,172\n好那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條\n\n11\n00:03:33,133 --> 00:04:00,040\n如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎\n\n12\n00:04:03,272 --> 00:04:31,898\n會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下\n\n13\n00:04:34,245 --> 00:04:55,231\n那我再來請問一下就我們這次修法我們這次修法我想請教秘書長這次修法其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的\n\n14\n00:04:57,717 --> 00:05:21,301\n是不是社會因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦\n\n15\n00:05:22,101 --> 00:05:48,828\n這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說\n\n16\n00:05:51,758 --> 00:06:11,967\n既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候\n\n17\n00:06:13,087 --> 00:06:42,095\n他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下\n\n18\n00:06:42,955 --> 00:06:59,325\n秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任\n\n19\n00:07:02,167 --> 00:07:28,667\n這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部\n\n20\n00:07:29,788 --> 00:07:58,788\n機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案\n\n21\n00:08:02,570 --> 00:08:16,761\n其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊\n\n22\n00:08:18,022 --> 00:08:44,779\n好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障\n\n23\n00:08:45,299 --> 00:08:57,712\n但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠\n\n24\n00:09:02,717 --> 00:09:31,708\n把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧\n\n25\n00:09:32,628 --> 00:09:36,540\n好那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下\n\n26\n00:09:38,050 --> 00:10:06,586\n當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委\n\n27\n00:10:07,819 --> 00:10:27,683\n跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性\n\n28\n00:10:28,496 --> 00:10:47,963\n更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢\n\n29\n00:10:48,639 --> 00:11:03,646\n過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面\n\n30\n00:11:06,462 --> 00:11:25,843\n不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西\n\n31\n00:11:26,303 --> 00:11:45,306\n但因為我國目前沒有所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到\n\n32\n00:11:45,746 --> 00:12:06,956\n那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是\n\n33\n00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:27,501\n不是說持續性不重要而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯直接就做完了但是呢他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是好那那個最後我想說\n\n34\n00:12:29,233 --> 00:12:44,381\n我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的\n\n35\n00:12:44,861 --> 00:13:06,293\n那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌主委\n\n36\n00:13:07,345 --> 00:13:28,924\n跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像\n\n37\n00:13:29,434 --> 00:13:58,974\n符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好以上謝謝是不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢基本上呢\n\n38\n00:14:01,075 --> 00:14:19,604\n這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好那沒問題那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好謝謝各位各位辛苦了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3766\t32648\t好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是\n35912\t45985\t人種這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管\n50698\t63727\t監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管\n66415\t89808\t目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄沒有\n93897\t117327\t所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那\n121849\t136098\t好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範\n141610\t154318\t我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假\n154818\t170885\t那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告\n171345\t185232\t好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝\n186713\t210172\t好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條\n213133\t240040\t如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎\n243272\t271898\t會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下\n274245\t295231\t那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的\n297717\t321301\t是不是社會 因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦\n322101\t348828\t這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說\n351758\t371967\t既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候\n373087\t402095\t他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下\n402955\t419325\t秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任\n422167\t448667\t這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部\n449788\t478788\t機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案\n482570\t496761\t其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊\n498022\t524779\t好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障\n525299\t537712\t但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠\n542717\t571708\t把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧\n572628\t576540\t好 那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下\n578050\t606586\t當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委\n607819\t627683\t跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性\n628496\t647963\t更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢\n648639\t663646\t過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面\n666462\t685843\t不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西\n686303\t705306\t但因為我國目前沒有 所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到\n705746\t726956\t那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是\n728556\t747501\t不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個最後我想說\n749233\t764381\t我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的\n764861\t786293\t那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委\n787345\t808924\t跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像\n809434\t838974\t符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢\n841075\t859604\t這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好 那沒問題 那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好 謝謝各位 各位辛苦了\n","txt":"好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是\n人種這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管\n監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管\n目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄沒有\n所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那\n好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範\n我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假\n那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告\n好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝\n好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條\n如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎\n會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下\n那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的\n是不是社會 因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦\n這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說\n既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候\n他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下\n秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任\n這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部\n機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案\n其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊\n好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障\n但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠\n把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧\n好 那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下\n當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委\n跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性\n更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢\n過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面\n不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西\n但因為我國目前沒有 所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到\n那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是\n不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個最後我想說\n我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的\n那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委\n跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像\n符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢\n這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好 那沒問題 那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好 謝謝各位 各位辛苦了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.766 --> 00:32.648\n好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是\n\n00:35.912 --> 00:45.985\n人種這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管\n\n00:50.698 --> 01:03.727\n監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管\n\n01:06.415 --> 01:29.808\n目前現行來講的話應該還是在考試院考試院好謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄沒有\n\n01:33.897 --> 01:57.327\n所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那\n\n02:01.849 --> 02:16.098\n好那沒關係喔那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長有沒有這個規範\n\n02:21.610 --> 02:34.318\n我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假\n\n02:34.818 --> 02:50.885\n那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告\n\n02:51.345 --> 03:05.232\n好的這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好謝謝\n\n03:06.713 --> 03:30.172\n好那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條\n\n03:33.133 --> 04:00.040\n如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎\n\n04:03.272 --> 04:31.898\n會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下\n\n04:34.245 --> 04:55.231\n那我再來請問一下就我們這次修法我們這次修法我想請教秘書長這次修法其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的\n\n04:57.717 --> 05:21.301\n是不是社會因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦\n\n05:22.101 --> 05:48.828\n這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說\n\n05:51.758 --> 06:11.967\n既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候\n\n06:13.087 --> 06:42.095\n他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下\n\n06:42.955 --> 06:59.325\n秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任\n\n07:02.167 --> 07:28.667\n這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部\n\n07:29.788 --> 07:58.788\n機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案\n\n08:02.570 --> 08:16.761\n其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊\n\n08:18.022 --> 08:44.779\n好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障\n\n08:45.299 --> 08:57.712\n但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠\n\n09:02.717 --> 09:31.708\n把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧\n\n09:32.628 --> 09:36.540\n好那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下\n\n09:38.050 --> 10:06.586\n當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委\n\n10:07.819 --> 10:27.683\n跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性\n\n10:28.496 --> 10:47.963\n更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢\n\n10:48.639 --> 11:03.646\n過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面\n\n11:06.462 --> 11:25.843\n不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西\n\n11:26.303 --> 11:45.306\n但因為我國目前沒有所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到\n\n11:45.746 --> 12:06.956\n那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是\n\n12:08.556 --> 12:27.501\n不是說持續性不重要而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯直接就做完了但是呢他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是好那那個最後我想說\n\n12:29.233 --> 12:44.381\n我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的\n\n12:44.861 --> 13:06.293\n那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌主委\n\n13:07.345 --> 13:28.924\n跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像\n\n13:29.434 --> 13:58.974\n符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好以上謝謝是不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢基本上呢\n\n14:01.075 --> 14:19.604\n這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好那沒問題那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好謝謝各位各位辛苦了\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.766,"end":32.648,"text":"好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是"},{"start":35.912,"end":45.985,"text":"人種這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管"},{"start":50.698,"end":63.727,"text":"監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管"},{"start":66.415,"end":89.808,"text":"目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄沒有"},{"start":93.897,"end":117.327,"text":"所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那"},{"start":121.849,"end":136.098,"text":"好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範"},{"start":141.61,"end":154.318,"text":"我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假"},{"start":154.818,"end":170.885,"text":"那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告"},{"start":171.345,"end":185.232,"text":"好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝"},{"start":186.713,"end":210.172,"text":"好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條"},{"start":213.133,"end":240.04,"text":"如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎"},{"start":243.272,"end":271.898,"text":"會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下"},{"start":274.245,"end":295.231,"text":"那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的"},{"start":297.717,"end":321.301,"text":"是不是社會 因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦"},{"start":322.101,"end":348.828,"text":"這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說"},{"start":351.758,"end":371.967,"text":"既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候"},{"start":373.087,"end":402.095,"text":"他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下"},{"start":402.955,"end":419.325,"text":"秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任"},{"start":422.167,"end":448.667,"text":"這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部"},{"start":449.788,"end":478.788,"text":"機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案"},{"start":482.57,"end":496.761,"text":"其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊"},{"start":498.022,"end":524.779,"text":"好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障"},{"start":525.299,"end":537.712,"text":"但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠"},{"start":542.717,"end":571.708,"text":"把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧"},{"start":572.628,"end":576.54,"text":"好 那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下"},{"start":578.05,"end":606.586,"text":"當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委"},{"start":607.819,"end":627.683,"text":"跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性"},{"start":628.496,"end":647.963,"text":"更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢"},{"start":648.639,"end":663.646,"text":"過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面"},{"start":666.462,"end":685.843,"text":"不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西"},{"start":686.303,"end":705.306,"text":"但因為我國目前沒有 所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到"},{"start":705.746,"end":726.956,"text":"那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是"},{"start":728.556,"end":747.501,"text":"不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個最後我想說"},{"start":749.233,"end":764.381,"text":"我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的"},{"start":764.861,"end":786.293,"text":"那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委"},{"start":787.345,"end":808.924,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像"},{"start":809.434,"end":838.974,"text":"符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢"},{"start":841.075,"end":859.604,"text":"這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好 那沒問題 那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好 謝謝各位 各位辛苦了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時58分）首先，昨天我們國民黨徐巧芯委員有提到一個陳菊院長的問題，剛好今天我們在討論有關公務員的部分，我也把一些問題提出來問一下，當然我也希望陳菊院長能夠早日康復。","我想請教一下人總這邊，像院長級別政務官的人事問題是由誰來主管？"],["陳處長月春：以監察院來講的話，監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，任命，那我是指他在一些相關的公務體系上面還有關於人事的部分是由誰來主管。"],["陳處長月春：現行來講，應該還是在考試院。"],["吳委員宗憲：考試院，謝謝。","秘書長，我想請教一下，昨天有委員提出來院長已經請病假5個月了，我想了解一下，過往有沒有主官因病請病假5個月這麼久的紀錄？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我沒有這個印象，但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：政次知道嗎？好，沒有。","因為現在有人提出這個問題，因為他畢竟是主官，主官已經請病假5個月了，這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反復問，但因為我自己對這塊的法規也不了解，所以我今天才會來請教這個問題。沒關係，如果大家不是那麼清楚，那有沒有規定擔任主官、院長級的請病假時限能夠多長，有沒有這個規範？請政次。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝，我跟委員報告，依照公務員請假規則，病假有28天，如果請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復、還沒辦法來上班的話，就可以申請延長病假。而延長病假時間是2年可以請1年的時間，如果身體好了、有醫師證明可以回來上班，那就可以回來上班，目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用。以上報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的，我自己擔任過公務員，我也了解這個制度，但是在五院裡面，一個院的主官有這個狀況的時候，所以我們今天才要來請教一下，看看有沒有不同的規定，謝謝。","接下來，我們就回到本日的主題，我想請教一下秘書長，最近我們在討論一個抑留剋扣的問題，那我想請教一下秘書長，有關抑留剋扣可能涉犯的是貪污治罪條例第六條或是刑法第一百二十九條，如果公務員因為這樣而被判有罪的話，這個會不會影響到他將來的公務員或是退休金的請領？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分我請銓敘部懷次來回答。"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，依照公務人員任用法的規定，如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話，這是會喪失公務員身分，以上報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：那會影響到退休金的請領嗎？"],["懷次長敍：會啊，會影響。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我想我這邊就是做一個論述、一個確定，因為我之前有對一個抑留剋扣罪告發，我這邊也是要敬告所有的公務員，如果涉犯抑留剋扣罪的話，將來判決確定，假設判有罪、萬一判有罪，這會影響到官職還有退休金，而且這個追訴權時效還滿長的，這個部分我先在這邊跟各位報告一下。","再請問一下，關於我們這次修法，我想請教秘書長，這次修法其實我在意的就是外部監督的問題，我想我去年11月、12月那個時候一直提到我們現在的公務員，為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少？這是數字上就可以顯現出來的，是不是社會上在這段時間，我覺得政治上的運作有點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲、退休公務員更是米蟲，很多人是在營造這樣的觀感，所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善。像我們都是公務體系出來的，我們就很清楚，達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實看的是政治傾向，這個早就凌駕於文官的專業。我想大家都任公務員、都在公務體系，也都能夠心領神會我今天在說什麼。我的意思是，像這段時間這個樣子，到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員？還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單，就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素，我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解。既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工，而我們對於勞工，我們對於私人企業是這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話，那對於公務員，我想也是要去重視他的權利。","其次，公部門一直以來有一個問題，就是當他受到一些不利益對待的時候，他的申訴管道通常就是在部門內部或是向長官，但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌、長官的要求，這時候他該怎麼辦？這個就是我們有意見的地方，所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望公務員乾脆一併適用職安法好了，他覺得職安法反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整。我想請教一下秘書長您是否認同，有關我們草案第十九條的處罰，還有安衛辦法草案第五條的防護委員會等等，你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任委員？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個方向跟我們現在安衛辦法的修法方向也是一致的，所以為什麼在調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上的外部成員，在防護委員會這部分有三分之一是學者專家。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在跟秘書長報告，關於我們保障法草案第十九條之一，我看了一下第十九條之一草案還是由上級機關來監督，而不是由獨立的外部機制來監督，這到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員？這是我懷疑的一個點。當然您剛剛有提到安衛辦法，外部的學者不得少於三分之一，但是他主要受理的還是由副首長所召集、機關的副首長所召集，這是不是真的能夠有效的獨立？我想這部分再提供給秘書長參考一下，就是這個草案……"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實我們公務員都有一個救濟機制就是保訓會，例如霸凌如果申訴不成、如果不服的話，再申訴會在保訓會這邊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的、好的。但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛，而第一層，如果我們能夠的話，當然是給予他完整的保護，因為我自己看了一下，我們對於勞工的保護就是越來越完整，譬如說有勞安問題的時候，勞動部有勞安署，而且有勞安署跟地方政府，甚至是一些民間團體組成的外部監督機制，所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工，對於勞工……"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果是勞工的話，他的第一層還是在企業內部，但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門，現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內，救濟的部分是到保訓會，其實是同樣的結構。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，至少我們機關內部在審查的時候能夠引入外部的監督者、外部學者或他機關的代表，能夠引入更多的代表，我覺得這樣才能更能保障公務員。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：否則真的很多職場霸凌等等是來自於自己內部或者是長官，我想這是現在實務上偶爾會發生的。","另外，我再請教一下關於職場霸凌的定義問題，我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性？我們有個定義是要持續性，對吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：關於這個持續性，現在有一個問題，我想請教一下，當然過往有很多判決，以前的判例現在是改成判決，很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念，但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人，在網路上po上去之後，我們又沒有權力叫他下架，這是不是屬於持續性的霸凌？"],["劉秘書長建忻：關於持續性，其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準，定義的部分主委比較了解，是不是請主委來說明？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那麻煩主委。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題，我們陸陸續續開了這麼多場各方的代表跟法制的徵詢，到底要不要只限於這個持續性？或者是說一次，但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人持續性更大的傷害？最後基於各方的代表還有包含……我們的代表裡面不只是法學者，還有很多很多是基層的公務人員，他們認為應該要把這種一次性的納入。重點就是霸凌，過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的，都是以持續性，但是現在霸凌的型態有越來越多種，所以如果一次就已經造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害，那也應該要入法，這就是後來為什麼我們在這個定義裡面，不是只有持續性，把一次性也納入的原因。以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，主委，我這邊再補充一下，因為我國不像歐洲有一個遺忘權這個法治概念，歐洲有遺忘權，你可以主張自己的遺忘權，要求網路上面或是新聞上面下架某些過往的東西，但因為我國目前沒有，所以如果在我們網路上po一個東西，它的影響可能是5年、10年、20年，甚至當時這個記者下的這個標題可能只是當時的社會風氣，可能三個月後大家發現狀況不是這樣，但是這個東西會持續在網路上讓大家搜尋得到。有時候有些刻意的人就會拿這個當作武器來修理他的同事，或是譬如說政治對手等等，會有這個問題，所以是不是在所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以例示或是列舉等等的方式去做一個補充？不是說持續性不重要，而是有某些狀況，他的行為雖然是一次性，他是即成犯，直接就做完了，但是他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠，可能麻煩用例示或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊，在此跟主委報告。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後我想說的是，還是一個重點，我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加，因為只有強大的公務員、好的人才來，國家才會越來越強大，因為今天不管誰執政，我都希望國家是強大的。這幾年公務員的錄取，其實來報考的人越來越少，我認為這其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂。","最後請教，如果機關違反的話，這個機關如果被裁罰，請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾？如果不公開，我們要怎麼落實，避免公務員被霸凌？主委。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，因為各機關還有我們保訓會自己會去調查，所以這個報告在安衛辦法裡面其實就有明白寫明這個必須要上網，保訓會目前的規劃也是，當然也會傾向是把他公開，因為這樣才能真的符合委員所提到的，那種效果才會擴散，大家才會更加的警惕，以上，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：在不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下，我們還是希望資訊能夠透明。如果機關首長被開罰，會不會影響到未來升遷？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，機關首長如果是政務人員，政治責任應該就是看社會輿論跟其任用者的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是一般常任文官？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：一般常任文官基本上以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的，因為會留下紀錄。以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那沒問題，謝謝主委。如果有什麼問題，我們再麻煩主委日後能夠多溝通，我們還是希望公務員的保障非常重要，希望人才都來為國家服務。好，謝謝各位，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到關於員工職場霸凌處理小組，或者在安衛辦法裡面所講的調查小組。因為調查小組裡面有訂一定的比例，外部成員的比例要大於二分之一，事實上，我們看到有些機關裡面的員工職場霸凌處理小組的成員，外部委員的比例其實是沒有大於二分之一，或者是根本沒有明定。這個部分我也希望考試院或者是保訓會，可以先通盤盤點各個部會機關裡面，自身所訂的員工職場霸凌處理小組中外部委員的比例及人數是多少。譬如我看到司法院根本也沒有訂所謂的外部委員，這個部分可能要在瞭解整個機關的情況之後，再來細緻化討論相關的外部成員比例會比較妥當，麻煩了，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}