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\"start\": 211.673, \"end\": 211.693, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 219.025, \"end\": 238.02, \"text\": \"我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 219.025, \"end\": 219.265, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 219.265, \"end\": 219.405, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 219.405, \"end\": 219.625, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 219.625, \"end\": 220.006, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 220.006, \"end\": 220.346, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 220.346, \"end\": 220.586, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 220.586, \"end\": 220.947, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 220.947, \"end\": 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這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 246.146, \"end\": 246.226, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 246.226, \"end\": 246.286, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 246.286, \"end\": 246.406, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 246.406, \"end\": 247.988, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 247.988, \"end\": 248.288, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 248.288, \"end\": 248.528, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 248.528, \"end\": 249.069, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 249.069, \"end\": 249.569, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 249.569, \"end\": 249.709, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 249.709, \"end\": 250.29, 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{\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 680.622, \"end\": 680.722, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 680.722, \"end\": 680.742, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,189\n主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個\n\n2\n00:00:28,294 --> 00:00:46,243\n目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個\n\n3\n00:00:47,967 --> 00:01:10,763\n我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多\n\n4\n00:01:12,233 --> 00:01:26,072\n最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務\n\n5\n00:01:27,934 --> 00:01:48,710\n這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點\n\n6\n00:01:49,591 --> 00:02:03,636\n另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條\n\n7\n00:02:06,176 --> 00:02:09,678\n也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文\n\n8\n00:02:24,127 --> 00:02:50,567\n那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條\n\n9\n00:02:52,604 --> 00:03:08,399\n剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說\n\n10\n00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:31,693\n這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個\n\n11\n00:03:39,025 --> 00:03:58,020\n我們是以持續性為原則這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外就是不必有持續性的它就是我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對要情節如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長欸欸欸我直接請這個保訓會\n\n12\n00:04:06,146 --> 00:04:32,467\n這邊來是不是我們這個法條的內容是是嘛這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是\n\n13\n00:04:33,615 --> 00:04:43,182\n情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去\n\n14\n00:04:59,648 --> 00:05:17,395\n先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌\n\n15\n00:05:18,649 --> 00:05:37,459\n到底是不是情節重大因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對所以那個情節重大因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大舉證責任對舉證責任就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關他就會去決定我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證還是還是這個\n\n16\n00:05:46,960 --> 00:06:10,520\n霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個\n\n17\n00:06:11,461 --> 00:06:32,332\n第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下\n\n18\n00:06:33,493 --> 00:06:49,674\n第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那\n\n19\n00:06:51,056 --> 00:07:11,481\n權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦\n\n20\n00:07:17,591 --> 00:07:44,436\n好這部分我們等一下逐條的時候說明清楚啦是好請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟\n\n21\n00:07:45,831 --> 00:08:11,879\n這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更\n\n22\n00:08:13,424 --> 00:08:25,617\n關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關\n\n23\n00:08:29,212 --> 00:08:55,085\n有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇\n\n24\n00:08:56,446 --> 00:09:13,637\n說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。\n\n25\n00:09:19,712 --> 00:09:46,742\n我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸\n\n26\n00:09:49,091 --> 00:10:07,470\n這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在\n\n27\n00:10:13,015 --> 00:10:35,748\n第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為\n\n28\n00:10:38,052 --> 00:11:04,738\n你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要\n\n29\n00:11:05,857 --> 00:11:20,742\n等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好以上謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1189\t主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個\n28294\t46243\t目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個\n47967\t70763\t我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多\n72233\t86072\t最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害 霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務\n87934\t108710\t這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點\n109591\t123636\t另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條\n126176\t129678\t也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文\n144127\t170567\t那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條\n172604\t188399\t剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說\n189920\t211693\t這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個\n219025\t238020\t我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會\n246146\t272467\t這邊來 是不是我們這個法條的內容是 是嘛 這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是\n273615\t283182\t情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去\n299648\t317395\t先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌\n318649\t337459\t到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關 他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是還是這個\n346960\t370520\t霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個\n371461\t392332\t第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下\n393493\t409674\t第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那\n411056\t431481\t權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦\n437591\t464436\t好 這部分我們等一下逐條的時候 說明清楚啦是好 請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢 他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢 他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟\n465831\t491879\t這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更\n493424\t505617\t關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關\n509212\t535085\t有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇\n536446\t553637\t說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。\n559712\t586742\t我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸\n589091\t607470\t這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在\n613015\t635748\t第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為\n638052\t664738\t你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要\n665857\t680742\t等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個\n目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個\n我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多\n最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害 霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務\n這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點\n另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條\n也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文\n那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條\n剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說\n這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個\n我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會\n這邊來 是不是我們這個法條的內容是 是嘛 這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是\n情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去\n先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌\n到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關 他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是還是這個\n霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個\n第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下\n第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那\n權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦\n好 這部分我們等一下逐條的時候 說明清楚啦是好 請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢 他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢 他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟\n這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更\n關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關\n有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇\n說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。\n我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸\n這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在\n第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為\n你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要\n等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.189\n主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個\n\n00:28.294 --> 00:46.243\n目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個\n\n00:47.967 --> 01:10.763\n我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多\n\n01:12.233 --> 01:26.072\n最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務\n\n01:27.934 --> 01:48.710\n這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點\n\n01:49.591 --> 02:03.636\n另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條\n\n02:06.176 --> 02:09.678\n也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文\n\n02:24.127 --> 02:50.567\n那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條\n\n02:52.604 --> 03:08.399\n剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說\n\n03:09.920 --> 03:31.693\n這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個\n\n03:39.025 --> 03:58.020\n我們是以持續性為原則這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外就是不必有持續性的它就是我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對要情節如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長欸欸欸我直接請這個保訓會\n\n04:06.146 --> 04:32.467\n這邊來是不是我們這個法條的內容是是嘛這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是\n\n04:33.615 --> 04:43.182\n情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去\n\n04:59.648 --> 05:17.395\n先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌\n\n05:18.649 --> 05:37.459\n到底是不是情節重大因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對所以那個情節重大因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大舉證責任對舉證責任就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關他就會去決定我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證還是還是這個\n\n05:46.960 --> 06:10.520\n霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個\n\n06:11.461 --> 06:32.332\n第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下\n\n06:33.493 --> 06:49.674\n第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那\n\n06:51.056 --> 07:11.481\n權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦\n\n07:17.591 --> 07:44.436\n好這部分我們等一下逐條的時候說明清楚啦是好請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟\n\n07:45.831 --> 08:11.879\n這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更\n\n08:13.424 --> 08:25.617\n關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關\n\n08:29.212 --> 08:55.085\n有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇\n\n08:56.446 --> 09:13.637\n說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。\n\n09:19.712 --> 09:46.742\n我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸\n\n09:49.091 --> 10:07.470\n這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在\n\n10:13.015 --> 10:35.748\n第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為\n\n10:38.052 --> 11:04.738\n你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要\n\n11:05.857 --> 11:20.742\n等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好以上謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.189,"text":"主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個"},{"start":28.294,"end":46.243,"text":"目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個"},{"start":47.967,"end":70.763,"text":"我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多"},{"start":72.233,"end":86.072,"text":"最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害 霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務"},{"start":87.934,"end":108.71,"text":"這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點"},{"start":109.591,"end":123.636,"text":"另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條"},{"start":126.176,"end":129.678,"text":"也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文"},{"start":144.127,"end":170.567,"text":"那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條"},{"start":172.604,"end":188.399,"text":"剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說"},{"start":189.92,"end":211.693,"text":"這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個"},{"start":219.025,"end":238.02,"text":"我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會"},{"start":246.146,"end":272.467,"text":"這邊來 是不是我們這個法條的內容是 是嘛 這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是"},{"start":273.615,"end":283.182,"text":"情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去"},{"start":299.648,"end":317.395,"text":"先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌"},{"start":318.649,"end":337.459,"text":"到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關 他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是還是這個"},{"start":346.96,"end":370.52,"text":"霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個"},{"start":371.461,"end":392.332,"text":"第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下"},{"start":393.493,"end":409.674,"text":"第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那"},{"start":411.056,"end":431.481,"text":"權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦"},{"start":437.591,"end":464.436,"text":"好 這部分我們等一下逐條的時候 說明清楚啦是好 請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢 他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢 他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟"},{"start":465.831,"end":491.879,"text":"這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更"},{"start":493.424,"end":505.617,"text":"關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關"},{"start":509.212,"end":535.085,"text":"有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇"},{"start":536.446,"end":553.637,"text":"說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。"},{"start":559.712,"end":586.742,"text":"我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸"},{"start":589.091,"end":607.47,"text":"這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在"},{"start":613.015,"end":635.748,"text":"第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為"},{"start":638.052,"end":664.738,"text":"你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要"},{"start":665.857,"end":680.742,"text":"等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時13分）主席、各位同仁，我們也是非常高興今天能夠安排公務人員保障法部分條文的修正，我想目前在公務體系的公務人員，以及包括朝野、各政黨大家的共識，都希望能夠儘速完善立法來防治公務體系裡相關的職場霸凌問題並有所改善。今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常多，包括考試院、民眾黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案，這些修正草案大概除了兩條比較特別以外，其他整個結構大部分都是差不多。最主要就是第一個，要提升法位階讓機關、國家負有防止公務人員免受霸凌不法侵害，並賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務，這個是今天修法最大、最主要的核心精神，也體現在第十九條的修法條文裡面，就是把國家防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的義務提升到法律的位階，這個是今天修法的第一個重點。另外也將過去規定在行政規則裡面的霸凌構成要件，提升到法律上來定義，這也是第十九條的相關規定，接下來相關配套的懲處規定在第十九條之一，包括懲處、罰鍰還有機關責任等等相關強化機關的防治責任，這部分就是規定在後面的條文。","關於我今天的質詢，基本上包括考試院所提出的草案我是肯定的，但是裡面有幾個部分我個人覺得可以再討論，現在大概先瞭解一下，在法案逐條審查的時候，也可以再進一步討論。第一個，關於第十九條是提升機關負有防護霸凌、避免霸凌的義務且把它提升到法律的位階，剛才吳宗憲委員也有提到，而我比較關心的是第十九條第二項所謂霸凌的完整定義，這裡面有一個重要的概念是持續性，就是逾越職務上正當合理範圍，持續以歧視、侮辱言行及其他方式，造成敵意性、脅迫性。這個持續性的規定是以持續性為原則，但是在後段又有例外規定，就是不必有持續性可是要件為情節重大，對不對？如果情節重大的話，即使不是持續性的行為，也必須包含在霸凌的範圍內，我直接請保訓會回應是否為這個法條的內容？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是，就是這個持續性。這個持續性的概念到底是不是持續，就像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣，傷害是一次性，但是凌虐是持續性的。重點是現在這個例外條款把持續性排除的要件是情節重大，請問情節重大的舉證責任在哪一方？誰來舉證這個狀況是不是情節重大？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，關於舉證，通常申訴人跟再申訴人會先主訴受到什麼樣的狀態，然後機關受理調查開始成立小組後，會就所謂的專業上因果關係去……"],["沈委員發惠：現在我是說持續性的，他可能只有一次的行為，但是這個一次性的霸凌行為到底是不是情節重大？如果不是情節重大，就不在這個霸凌的規範裡面。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，所以那個情節重大，因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大……"],["沈委員發惠：舉證責任。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，舉證責任。就是只要他有申訴了，就會有調查小組、外部機關，就會去決定……"],["沈委員發惠：舉證責任不會在外部機關的，我是說外部機關調查的過程裡面，誰來舉證？是由申訴人來舉證？霸凌者來舉證？舉證責任之所在，敗訴之所在，這個部分我要瞭解情節重大的舉證責任到底在哪一方？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是由申訴人舉證。"],["沈委員發惠：由申訴人舉證？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這就由申訴人來舉證，舉證說雖然是一次沒有持續，但是要申訴必須舉證是情節重大，是不是這樣？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這是第一個。接下來第二個，我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限，申訴期限區分成兩種，一種是非權勢地位者，一種是具權勢地位者，對不對？在第三項第一款跟第二款做這個區分，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：它申訴的期限是不一樣的，具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者的申訴的期限是不一樣的。那權勢是如何認定？什麼叫做具權勢地位？什麼叫做不具權勢地位？這地方跟法律明確性原則我個人覺得有一點疑慮，這部分要怎樣認定是不是具有權勢者？等一下在逐條討論時你們要說明清楚。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。跟委員報告，權勢跟非權勢在我們的定義上面是指機關中這個人的地位對於被霸凌人可能是主管，具有監督管理的角色跟責任，這是我們定義他具有權勢的概念。"],["沈委員發惠：你們在立法說明裡面第五項是這樣寫，我覺得……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，在這上面是這樣寫，但是委員所說的確是正確的，我們討論權勢跟非權勢是需要再……"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個定義的認定會是值得討論的，在未來到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則？這是一個重要的地方。關於法律明確性原則，在這次修法草案裡面，我覺得有一個更嚴重的地方，在第十九條之一，「各機關……有下列情形之一者，其應負責人員，應按情節輕重，依公務員懲戒法……」，「其應負責人員」不是一個明確的法律概念。這東西不是我在這裡提而已，我看今天的書面報告，包括立法院法制局，包括法務部今天的書面報告，大家桌上有，大家可以翻一翻，包括司法院，司法院的書面報告寫得最兇、說得最兇，他說你們所謂「應負責人員」違反法律明確性原則，誰是應負責人員？它是一個行政法人懲處責任的主體，你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員，這個會有點問題喔！","公務人員相關法令是聲請釋憲比例最高的，幾乎所有公務人員相關規範法令在聲請釋憲裡面是比例最高的，而這一條法令，各個相關機關都直接點出第十九條之一的「應負責人員」與法律明確性原則有所牴觸。關於這部分，你們雖然在立法說明第三點有提到，所謂應負責人員係指什麼、什麼、什麼，但這是你們的立法說明，這跟在法律條文上面的應負責人員……因為你們這裡寫「應負責人員」，但是你們在第十九條之一第六項卻是規範「機關首長」，機關首長就很明確是機關首長，但在前面你們就用應負責人員，我覺得在立法體系上面，第一個，也有前後不一致的地方。第二個，應負責人員的部分，我認為等一下在逐條討論的時候，你們應該要設法把它明確化，不然我個人除了說……其實不只我個人，包括立法院法制局、包括法務部、包括司法院都認為這個有違反法律明確性原則，說得更兇一點，就是它有違憲的疑慮，違反明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮。所以我希望我們在立法時，請考試院秘書長等一下在逐條之前，能夠就條文中所謂「應負責人員」的部分做個考慮、做個文字上的斟酌，好不好？以上。"],["蔡主任秘書秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}