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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,769 --> 00:00:28,100\n主席謝謝請陳主委請主委委員長主委好本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是\n\n2\n00:00:29,264 --> 00:00:44,987\n因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就\n\n3\n00:00:45,828 --> 00:01:07,981\n先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績\n\n4\n00:01:08,982 --> 00:01:34,878\n跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊\n\n5\n00:01:35,718 --> 00:02:04,970\n是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化\n\n6\n00:02:06,312 --> 00:02:07,264\n主委您自己感覺\n\n7\n00:02:09,738 --> 00:02:35,916\n公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了主委\n\n8\n00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:59,882\n我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到\n\n9\n00:03:01,343 --> 00:03:29,345\n今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎\n\n10\n00:03:31,749 --> 00:03:58,111\n已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故\n\n11\n00:03:59,392 --> 00:04:16,423\n好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要\n\n12\n00:04:19,825 --> 00:04:37,916\n杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊\n\n13\n00:04:38,937 --> 00:05:06,025\n那螺絲栓緊最直接的即便你是工程會主委即便你是政務委員官大學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊\n\n14\n00:05:06,823 --> 00:05:30,496\n那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重\n\n15\n00:05:33,063 --> 00:05:40,281\n他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦\n\n16\n00:05:41,243 --> 00:06:04,663\n不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧\n\n17\n00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:33,732\n我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標\n\n18\n00:06:35,185 --> 00:06:59,778\n那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄\n\n19\n00:07:01,439 --> 00:07:29,813\n來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管\n\n20\n00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:48,036\n現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變\n\n21\n00:07:50,017 --> 00:08:13,732\n那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些\n\n22\n00:08:15,914 --> 00:08:32,495\n狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件\n\n23\n00:08:35,577 --> 00:08:59,110\n泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台\n\n24\n00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:25,223\n就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連\n\n25\n00:09:29,935 --> 00:09:51,985\n負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣\n\n26\n00:09:54,898 --> 00:10:04,606\n劣跡斑斑的負責人劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想\n\n27\n00:10:05,669 --> 00:10:25,192\n工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎\n\n28\n00:10:26,333 --> 00:10:40,950\n原則上可以下個會期可以這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛但你有可能比較難好我們就遵照委員的意見下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊你們會有加嚴\n\n29\n00:10:47,278 --> 00:11:07,203\n會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審\n\n30\n00:11:09,284 --> 00:11:27,533\n的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點\n\n31\n00:11:30,814 --> 00:11:59,793\n都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好謝謝主委謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標\n\n32\n00:12:01,167 --> 00:12:06,940\n這是任何機關不管立法部門行政部門都不應該被看到的事情好嗎謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n769\t28100\t主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是\n29264\t44987\t因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就\n45828\t67981\t先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績\n68982\t94878\t跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊\n95718\t124970\t是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化\n126312\t127264\t主委 您自己感覺\n129738\t155916\t公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北 已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了 主委\n157476\t179882\t我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到\n181343\t209345\t今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎\n211749\t238111\t已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故\n239392\t256423\t好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要\n259825\t277916\t杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊\n278937\t306025\t那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊\n306823\t330496\t那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重\n333063\t340281\t他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦\n341243\t364663\t不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理 代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧\n366636\t393732\t我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來 那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標\n395185\t419778\t那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄\n421439\t449813\t來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管\n451000\t468036\t現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變\n470017\t493732\t那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些\n495914\t512495\t狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件\n515577\t539110\t泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台\n539970\t565223\t就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連\n569935\t591985\t負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣\n594898\t604606\t劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想\n605669\t625192\t工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎\n626333\t640950\t原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛 但你有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴\n647278\t667203\t會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審\n669284\t687533\t的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點\n690814\t719793\t都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標\n721167\t726940\t這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門都不應該被看到的事情 好嗎 謝謝\n","txt":"主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是\n因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就\n先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績\n跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊\n是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化\n主委 您自己感覺\n公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北 已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了 主委\n我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到\n今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎\n已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故\n好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要\n杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊\n那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊\n那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重\n他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦\n不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理 代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧\n我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來 那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標\n那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄\n來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管\n現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變\n那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些\n狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件\n泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台\n就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連\n負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣\n劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想\n工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎\n原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛 但你有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴\n會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審\n的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點\n都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標\n這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門都不應該被看到的事情 好嗎 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.769 --> 00:28.100\n主席謝謝請陳主委請主委委員長主委好本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是\n\n00:29.264 --> 00:44.987\n因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就\n\n00:45.828 --> 01:07.981\n先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績\n\n01:08.982 --> 01:34.878\n跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊\n\n01:35.718 --> 02:04.970\n是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化\n\n02:06.312 --> 02:07.264\n主委您自己感覺\n\n02:09.738 --> 02:35.916\n公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了主委\n\n02:37.476 --> 02:59.882\n我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到\n\n03:01.343 --> 03:29.345\n今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎\n\n03:31.749 --> 03:58.111\n已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故\n\n03:59.392 --> 04:16.423\n好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要\n\n04:19.825 --> 04:37.916\n杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊\n\n04:38.937 --> 05:06.025\n那螺絲栓緊最直接的即便你是工程會主委即便你是政務委員官大學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊\n\n05:06.823 --> 05:30.496\n那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重\n\n05:33.063 --> 05:40.281\n他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦\n\n05:41.243 --> 06:04.663\n不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧\n\n06:06.636 --> 06:33.732\n我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標\n\n06:35.185 --> 06:59.778\n那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄\n\n07:01.439 --> 07:29.813\n來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管\n\n07:31.000 --> 07:48.036\n現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變\n\n07:50.017 --> 08:13.732\n那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些\n\n08:15.914 --> 08:32.495\n狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件\n\n08:35.577 --> 08:59.110\n泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台\n\n08:59.970 --> 09:25.223\n就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連\n\n09:29.935 --> 09:51.985\n負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣\n\n09:54.898 --> 10:04.606\n劣跡斑斑的負責人劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想\n\n10:05.669 --> 10:25.192\n工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎\n\n10:26.333 --> 10:40.950\n原則上可以下個會期可以這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛但你有可能比較難好我們就遵照委員的意見下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊你們會有加嚴\n\n10:47.278 --> 11:07.203\n會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審\n\n11:09.284 --> 11:27.533\n的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點\n\n11:30.814 --> 11:59.793\n都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好謝謝主委謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標\n\n12:01.167 --> 12:06.940\n這是任何機關不管立法部門行政部門都不應該被看到的事情好嗎謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.769,"end":28.1,"text":"主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是"},{"start":29.264,"end":44.987,"text":"因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就"},{"start":45.828,"end":67.981,"text":"先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績"},{"start":68.982,"end":94.878,"text":"跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊"},{"start":95.718,"end":124.97,"text":"是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化"},{"start":126.312,"end":127.264,"text":"主委 您自己感覺"},{"start":129.738,"end":155.916,"text":"公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北 已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了 主委"},{"start":157.476,"end":179.882,"text":"我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":181.343,"end":209.345,"text":"今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎"},{"start":211.749,"end":238.111,"text":"已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故"},{"start":239.392,"end":256.423,"text":"好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要"},{"start":259.825,"end":277.916,"text":"杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊"},{"start":278.937,"end":306.025,"text":"那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊"},{"start":306.823,"end":330.496,"text":"那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重"},{"start":333.063,"end":340.281,"text":"他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦"},{"start":341.243,"end":364.663,"text":"不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理 代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧"},{"start":366.636,"end":393.732,"text":"我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來 那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標"},{"start":395.185,"end":419.778,"text":"那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄"},{"start":421.439,"end":449.813,"text":"來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管"},{"start":451,"end":468.036,"text":"現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變"},{"start":470.017,"end":493.732,"text":"那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些"},{"start":495.914,"end":512.495,"text":"狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件"},{"start":515.577,"end":539.11,"text":"泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台"},{"start":539.97,"end":565.223,"text":"就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連"},{"start":569.935,"end":591.985,"text":"負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣"},{"start":594.898,"end":604.606,"text":"劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想"},{"start":605.669,"end":625.192,"text":"工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎"},{"start":626.333,"end":640.95,"text":"原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛 但你有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴"},{"start":647.278,"end":667.203,"text":"會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審"},{"start":669.284,"end":687.533,"text":"的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點"},{"start":690.814,"end":719.793,"text":"都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標"},{"start":721.167,"end":726.94,"text":"這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門都不應該被看到的事情 好嗎 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時13分）主席謝謝，請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。本席有看到這幾天您是以政務委員的身分，跟臺鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議，新聞也有看到臺鐵事故頻傳，政院要求比照道安會報每月檢討，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為我負責臺鐵安全檢討的會議，本來是每季開會，後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高，要求先試試看每個月將發生的事故詳細的來做報告並檢討相關責任歸屬，所以想比照交通道安會報每個月開一次。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請教主委，臺鐵派來跟你開會的是什麼層級？"],["陳主任委員金德：董事長、總經理以及相關的主管。"],["洪委員孟楷：董事長？代理董事長？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，代理董事長。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，臺鐵現在是公司，為什麼會公司化？在2024年1月的時候正式公司化，掛牌至今也已經一年多了，當時我們國人最大的要求，在這個交通委員會的會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候，也講是要把相關的缺失、相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進。主委在臉書提到調車錯誤、駕駛疏失、行車安全疑慮，哪一個是新問題？都還是老問題，2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做臺鐵局，所以有窒礙難行之處、有沈痾，沒有辦法去做這些管理，那現在公司化一年多了，主委，您自己感覺公司化之後比較有改善的空間嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為從機關變成公司，公司有董事會，那董事會有各界的……等於是外部董事也都有，所以目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的制度，那因為是臺鐵……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經一年多了，這個不是一個新公司。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為機關已經很久很久了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我講比較實在話，因為我不希望疊床架屋，公務員最怕做什麼事情？開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會。現在你願意跳下來比照道安會報檢討安全，你講說安全跟準點是臺鐵最基本要求，我認同，但是有沒有辦法做到？每個月比照道安會報開一次檢討會議，以工程會主委與政委的身分，把臺鐵公司的人找來，會不會疊床架屋？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會……"],["洪委員孟楷：有內部的管理，有外部的管理，再來工程會，結果問題還是一樣。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為我是受命負責臺鐵的安全督導，它本來就是一個專案，本來就固定在開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，主委，臺鐵公司化一年多，安全你滿意嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：比過去經常的一些重大事故是有進步啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：但你滿意嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們當然還不滿意，所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因並改善，我們在逐步的一件一件檢討，這次是月臺，這次是平交道，每一次事故都一定有原因，那每個原因解決了之後，我們希望透過這個方式，讓公司上下都重視事故的改善是非常重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，立意良善啦，但是我想請教什麼時候代理董事長要真除？還是什麼時候臺鐵可以有一個新的董事長？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是我的權責範圍。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是你決定，可是你會不會覺得在治理組織來講這很重要？杜微前董事長3月20號離職，他申請退休，到現在快三個月過去了，還是代理董事長，如果你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節做好，其實有些時候是螺絲拴不拴得緊的問題，螺絲拴緊，最直接的即便你是工程會主委，即便你是政務委員，官大學問大，但是公務體系也常常有一句話：「怕管不怕官。」你每個月可以跟他們開一次會，可是如果連董事長都是代理的，就代表這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人，或是沒有人在那邊24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全做好，那是不是應該要建議專業任命，該派就要派，而不是用代理的方式？主委，你怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前伍次長代理董事長，他本身也是鐵道局出身，相當專業。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯，所以我理解啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：對臺鐵的整個制度、管理、機械等等，他都非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是代理，就變成他有交通部次長的業務，又有臺鐵的業務，那孰輕孰重？"],["陳主任委員金德：本來次長就督導鐵道局。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的這樣的話，那這樣交通部部長或次長都代理就好了，不是嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們會尊重委員的意見，不過畢竟還是部長的權責。"],["洪委員孟楷：該建議要建議啦，我覺得這是釜底抽薪。我今天沒有幫任何人講話，我今天講的是制度面，就是組織裡面，如果代理久了，他的權責難免就會不相符，是吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想部長會綜合各種情況來……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我們還是要看之後臺鐵的安全，本席還是期待以安全、專業、準點為出發點，好不好？","現在有本院委員踢爆全臺警用的防彈背心有瑕疵，相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單，但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標，其實我們之前也有討論過，就是希望能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三振條款，因為現在最主要的漏洞在於管公司、不管負責人，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前在修法中，我是不是請陳副主委來跟你簡單說明一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：簡單說明一下，因為這是國人很關心的事情，不管是之前的太魯閣號事件，還是現在的防彈背心，連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵，我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警消弟兄？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，最近我們在跟各界檢討整個停權的制度，當然有各種的意見，有的認為管得太鬆，有的認為管得太嚴，那原則上我們會往一個比較中間的方向，有關要不要納入……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要去看網友所說的？還有很多人在網路上討論有沒有管啊！你說管得太鬆或管得太嚴，還有人問說到底有沒有在管。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：現在確實是有各種意見啦，剛剛委員也提到，可能會有同一個負責人有好幾家公司的情況，在這個部分我們會做一個處理，但是如果這個也納進來，因為公司畢竟是一個法人，不是自然人，它經營的階層可能會改變，如果要納入三振條款，那麼又把由他擔任負責人的其他所有廠商都納進來，我們是有聽到有一些疑慮，認為這個會不會太過擴及了，所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以依情節輕重或依相關的狀況去做調整，講實在話，情節輕重，如果連警用防彈背心都可以造假，都可以有瑕疵，都可以說驗收完畢之後還可以不符合相關標準，如同之前太魯閣號事件這樣的狀況。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，防彈背心確實讓我們注意到它其實是因為停權，這個採購沒有搭配最有利標，而是用最低標，所以現在我們指導的原則是希望都能夠採用最有利標，那就會把它之前的實績納進來，況且我們現在有成立一個平台，就是這一些有採購防彈背心的機關，如果發現廠商履約有問題，就會通報平台，我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在講這些制度是不是都已經在做了？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：已經在做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那為什麼還會弊案層出不窮？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：那是因為弊案發生之後我們才做……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表這樣一個制度沒有辦法防範這樣的弊案。主委，我只簡單確認兩個部分，第一，如果連你要鎖定負責人，都很有可能上有政策下有對策，他找人頭來開公司，也可能規避，如果你連負責人都沒有辦法去做警示、限制的話，一個負責人開了A、B、C、D、E五家公司，A公司被你停權了，B公司、C公司再來投標，一樣，那劣跡斑斑的負責人、劣跡斑斑的公司一而再、再而三的有辦法得到政府採購標案，國人作何感想？工程會身為中央主管機關，作何感想？"],["陳主任委員金德：所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂，我想近期內就會報……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會報出來？"],["陳主任委員金德：6月至7月我們綜整之後會報行政院來審。"],["洪委員孟楷：有辦法在下個會期送到立法院，讓我們做修法討論嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：原則上可以，下個會期可以，這個會期恐怕會比較難。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個會期現在延長到7月31日……"],["陳主任委員金德：下個會期……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有可能比較難。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們就遵照委員的意見，下個會期送到大院來審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對所謂的三振條款，你們會加嚴？"],["陳主任委員金德：會有一些方式來排除惡劣的廠商用換負責人的方式、開新公司的方式來得標，就像剛才副主委解釋的，個人或相關公司過去的劣跡，會作為將來評審的扣分方式之一，我們會想盡辦法來防杜，這個是修法的最主要重點之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：劣跡如果真的情節重大，是連投標資格都不應該有，是應該停權三年、五年，甚至連投標資格都不應該有。"],["陳主任委員金德：那是看機關，機關採購的條件，他可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一點都應該要放進去。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會對機關有相關的一些合約指引，然後機關可以參考這個指引，作為它招商的條件之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝主委，謝謝副主委，本席也會提出本席的修法版本，我們期待下個會期共同討論，真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來的補起來，不要讓國人認為怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再、再而三投標，這是任何機關（不管立法部門、行政部門）都不應該被看到的事情，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。請林國成召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}