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71.627, \"end\": 71.907, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 71.907, \"end\": 72.107, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 72.107, \"end\": 72.328, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 72.328, \"end\": 72.348, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 74.269, \"end\": 96.111, \"text\": \"那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 74.269, \"end\": 74.85, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 74.85, \"end\": 74.95, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 74.95, \"end\": 75.21, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 75.21, \"end\": 75.45, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 75.45, \"end\": 75.67, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"攻\", \"start\": 75.67, \"end\": 76.111, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, 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{\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 87.782, \"end\": 87.903, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 87.903, \"end\": 88.123, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 88.123, \"end\": 88.463, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"破\", \"start\": 88.463, \"end\": 89.144, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"壞\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 89.144, \"end\": 89.264, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 89.264, \"end\": 89.384, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 89.384, \"end\": 89.905, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"竊\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 89.905, \"end\": 90.185, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 90.185, \"end\": 90.425, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 90.425, \"end\": 91.086, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 91.086, \"end\": 91.907, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 91.907, \"end\": 92.067, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 92.067, \"end\": 92.487, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 92.487, \"end\": 92.687, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 92.687, \"end\": 92.847, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 92.847, \"end\": 93.188, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 93.188, \"end\": 93.608, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 93.608, \"end\": 93.969, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 93.969, \"end\": 94.089, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 94.089, \"end\": 95.17, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 95.17, \"end\": 95.43, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.43, \"end\": 95.57, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.57, \"end\": 95.77, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"獲\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 95.77, \"end\": 95.931, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 95.931, \"end\": 96.091, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 96.091, \"end\": 96.111, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 97.552, \"end\": 116.568, \"text\": \"那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 97.552, \"end\": 98.513, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 98.513, \"end\": 98.653, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 98.653, \"end\": 99.073, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 99.073, \"end\": 99.294, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 99.294, \"end\": 99.534, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 99.534, \"end\": 99.874, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.874, \"end\": 100.354, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 100.354, \"end\": 100.755, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 100.755, \"end\": 100.915, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 100.915, \"end\": 101.395, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 101.395, \"end\": 101.816, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 101.816, \"end\": 102.016, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 102.016, \"end\": 102.216, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 102.216, \"end\": 102.476, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 102.476, \"end\": 102.716, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 102.716, \"end\": 102.937, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 102.937, \"end\": 103.117, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 103.117, \"end\": 103.777, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.777, \"end\": 104.438, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 104.438, \"end\": 104.618, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 104.618, \"end\": 104.878, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 104.878, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 114.006, \"end\": 114.206, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 114.206, \"end\": 114.406, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 114.406, \"end\": 114.706, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 114.706, \"end\": 115.027, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 115.027, \"end\": 115.207, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 115.207, \"end\": 115.747, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 115.747, \"end\": 115.907, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 115.907, \"end\": 116.187, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 116.187, \"end\": 116.348, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 116.348, \"end\": 116.428, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 116.428, \"end\": 116.548, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 116.548, \"end\": 116.568, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 118.331, \"end\": 145.846, \"text\": \"報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 118.331, \"end\": 118.431, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 118.431, \"end\": 119.252, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 119.252, \"end\": 120.092, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 120.092, \"end\": 120.272, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 120.272, \"end\": 120.392, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 120.392, \"end\": 120.592, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 120.592, \"end\": 120.752, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 120.752, \"end\": 120.912, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 120.912, \"end\": 121.233, \"score\": 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\"start\": 145.826, \"end\": 145.846, \"score\": 0.011}]}, {\"start\": 146.786, \"end\": 163.59, \"text\": \"這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 146.786, \"end\": 147.846, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 147.846, \"end\": 147.966, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 147.966, \"end\": 148.286, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 148.286, \"end\": 148.507, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 148.507, \"end\": 148.847, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 148.847, \"end\": 149.007, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 149.007, \"end\": 149.147, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 149.147, \"end\": 149.247, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 149.247, \"end\": 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199.52, \"text\": \"剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 170.643, \"end\": 170.883, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 170.883, \"end\": 171.003, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 171.003, \"end\": 171.624, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 171.624, \"end\": 171.784, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 171.784, \"end\": 171.924, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 171.924, \"end\": 172.444, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 172.444, \"end\": 172.664, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 172.664, \"end\": 172.784, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 172.784, \"end\": 173.345, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"企\", 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70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 324.232, \"end\": 324.993, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 324.993, \"end\": 326.073, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 326.073, \"end\": 326.234, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 326.234, \"end\": 326.394, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 326.394, \"end\": 327.114, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 327.114, \"end\": 327.334, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 327.334, \"end\": 327.515, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 327.515, \"end\": 328.996, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 328.996, \"end\": 331.297, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, 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00:00:39,195\n主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題\n\n3\n00:00:40,296 --> 00:00:55,574\n那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2\n\n4\n00:00:57,556 --> 00:01:12,348\n資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上\n\n5\n00:01:14,269 --> 00:01:36,111\n那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等\n\n6\n00:01:37,552 --> 00:01:56,568\n那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎來說明一下\n\n7\n00:01:58,331 --> 00:02:25,846\n報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞\n\n8\n00:02:26,786 --> 00:02:43,590\n這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下\n\n9\n00:02:50,643 --> 00:03:19,520\n剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議\n\n10\n00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:46,327\n第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員\n\n11\n00:03:48,328 --> 00:04:14,442\n他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了\n\n12\n00:04:15,442 --> 00:04:43,471\n那另外的部分我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中\n\n13\n00:04:44,691 --> 00:04:52,379\n製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年\n\n14\n00:05:03,450 --> 00:05:20,336\n台灣是將近七成67.3%韓國53%英國45%日本41%新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範現在已經下降到28.6%\n\n15\n00:05:24,232 --> 00:05:49,711\n我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60%70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下\n\n16\n00:05:50,686 --> 00:06:17,840\n委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個\n\n17\n00:06:19,502 --> 00:06:43,841\n部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分\n\n18\n00:06:44,662 --> 00:07:01,046\n有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件\n\n19\n00:07:03,854 --> 00:07:30,707\n那到2024年職災的件數也沒有減少也是32件死亡32人受傷2人沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型\n\n20\n00:07:31,513 --> 00:07:43,821\n就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊\n\n21\n00:07:44,949 --> 00:08:11,120\n最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善\n\n22\n00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:27,724\n能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下\n\n23\n00:08:30,066 --> 00:08:31,247\n我們都非常明確啦主委\n\n24\n00:08:56,986 --> 00:09:22,345\n我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山\n\n25\n00:09:23,526 --> 00:09:39,544\n這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1187\t4312\t好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委\n10974\t39195\t主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題\n40296\t55574\t那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2\n57556\t72348\t資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上\n74269\t96111\t那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等\n97552\t116568\t那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下\n118331\t145846\t報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞\n146786\t163590\t這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下\n170643\t199520\t剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議\n200000\t226327\t第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員\n228328\t254442\t他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了\n255442\t283471\t那另外的部分 我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業 勞動環境 保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會 一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中\n284691\t292379\t製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年\n303450\t320336\t台灣是將近七成 67.3% 韓國53%英國45% 日本41% 新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6%\n324232\t349711\t我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下\n350686\t377840\t委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個\n379502\t403841\t部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分\n404662\t421046\t有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件\n423854\t450707\t那到2024年 職災的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型\n451513\t463821\t就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊\n464949\t491120\t最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善\n492250\t507724\t能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下\n510066\t511247\t我們都非常明確啦 主委\n536986\t562345\t我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山\n563526\t579544\t這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善\n","txt":"好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委\n主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題\n那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2\n資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上\n那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等\n那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下\n報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞\n這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下\n剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議\n第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員\n他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了\n那另外的部分 我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業 勞動環境 保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會 一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中\n製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年\n台灣是將近七成 67.3% 韓國53%英國45% 日本41% 新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6%\n我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下\n委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個\n部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分\n有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件\n那到2024年 職災的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型\n就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊\n最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善\n能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下\n我們都非常明確啦 主委\n我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山\n這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.187 --> 00:04.312\n好謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委\n\n00:10.974 --> 00:39.195\n主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題\n\n00:40.296 --> 00:55.574\n那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2\n\n00:57.556 --> 01:12.348\n資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上\n\n01:14.269 --> 01:36.111\n那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等\n\n01:37.552 --> 01:56.568\n那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎來說明一下\n\n01:58.331 --> 02:25.846\n報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞\n\n02:26.786 --> 02:43.590\n這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下\n\n02:50.643 --> 03:19.520\n剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議\n\n03:20.000 --> 03:46.327\n第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員\n\n03:48.328 --> 04:14.442\n他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了\n\n04:15.442 --> 04:43.471\n那另外的部分我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中\n\n04:44.691 --> 04:52.379\n製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年\n\n05:03.450 --> 05:20.336\n台灣是將近七成67.3%韓國53%英國45%日本41%新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範現在已經下降到28.6%\n\n05:24.232 --> 05:49.711\n我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60%70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下\n\n05:50.686 --> 06:17.840\n委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個\n\n06:19.502 --> 06:43.841\n部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分\n\n06:44.662 --> 07:01.046\n有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件\n\n07:03.854 --> 07:30.707\n那到2024年職災的件數也沒有減少也是32件死亡32人受傷2人沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型\n\n07:31.513 --> 07:43.821\n就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊\n\n07:44.949 --> 08:11.120\n最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善\n\n08:12.250 --> 08:27.724\n能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下\n\n08:30.066 --> 08:31.247\n我們都非常明確啦主委\n\n08:56.986 --> 09:22.345\n我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山\n\n09:23.526 --> 09:39.544\n這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.187,"end":4.312,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委"},{"start":10.974,"end":39.195,"text":"主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題"},{"start":40.296,"end":55.574,"text":"那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2"},{"start":57.556,"end":72.348,"text":"資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上"},{"start":74.269,"end":96.111,"text":"那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等"},{"start":97.552,"end":116.568,"text":"那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":118.331,"end":145.846,"text":"報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞"},{"start":146.786,"end":163.59,"text":"這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":170.643,"end":199.52,"text":"剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議"},{"start":200,"end":226.327,"text":"第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員"},{"start":228.328,"end":254.442,"text":"他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了"},{"start":255.442,"end":283.471,"text":"那另外的部分 我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業 勞動環境 保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會 一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中"},{"start":284.691,"end":292.379,"text":"製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年"},{"start":303.45,"end":320.336,"text":"台灣是將近七成 67.3% 韓國53%英國45% 日本41% 新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6%"},{"start":324.232,"end":349.711,"text":"我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下"},{"start":350.686,"end":377.84,"text":"委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個"},{"start":379.502,"end":403.841,"text":"部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分"},{"start":404.662,"end":421.046,"text":"有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件"},{"start":423.854,"end":450.707,"text":"那到2024年 職災的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型"},{"start":451.513,"end":463.821,"text":"就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊"},{"start":464.949,"end":491.12,"text":"最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善"},{"start":492.25,"end":507.724,"text":"能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下"},{"start":510.066,"end":511.247,"text":"我們都非常明確啦 主委"},{"start":536.986,"end":562.345,"text":"我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山"},{"start":563.526,"end":579.544,"text":"這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時37分）謝謝許智傑召委，請一下陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：主委好。我想主委也很清楚，我國是資安被攻擊的中心，是全球最嚴重的一個地方，不管是資料被竊取或者是資安被入侵攻擊，其實是持續的增加，對於公共採購來說，相關的資安保護也逐漸成為一個重要的議題。2024年數發部的國家資通安全情勢報告顯示，我們面臨資安威脅的統計，不管是民間或是政府機關，在資訊蒐集部分是43.2%，資訊的蒐集主要是他們用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府資訊，另外，入侵攻擊跟入侵嘗試是高達36%以上，入侵攻擊或者是入侵嘗試主要是針對系統進行入侵或者是攻擊，來竊取、獲得非法的資訊，或者是破壞、竊取等等，利用取得非法的權限來獲得相關的資訊。","政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存，或是民間人民個資的保護，都是重要的議題，我一直認為我們政府部門的公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護，工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎？來說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，關於資安的部分，工程會跟數發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊（服務）採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表，這個在112年9月25日已經公布，協助機關落實採購資安。接著，我們會把這個一覽表納為採購契約範本，納入採購契約範本之後，可以指引機關作為採購資安工作，避免發生漏洞。"],["李委員昆澤：在2023年的時候我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善作為，剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況。設計新的契約範本，進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題，這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛才也有說明，將來我們希望這個契約範本是剛性的，過去機關是將契約範本作為原則參考，這個剛性範本修正之後，數發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入契約範本裡面，所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後，所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表，來做防止資安的問題。"],["李委員昆澤：這也是我對工程會相關的建議，第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式開發合約範本，這也是軟體開發中常見的一種合約形式，就是要確保合約在固定的時間、固定的成本之下來進行，但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性。長期來說，我認為工程會要跟數位部合作，針對採購人員的資安專業跟技能要進行培訓，尤其是在地方政府及偏鄉地區，這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少，因為你知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務，對他們來說，他們認為資安的保護是比較不重要的一環，這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導。","另外，我們還是來討論一下職災的部分，我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足，過去我在交通委員會也一再質詢，公共工程委員會針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範，我們看到重大職業災害之中，製造業始終是占多數，而且是持續的上升，2017年有43.5%，2024年升到51.7%。其實勞動部有統計各國營造業墜落致死的比例，2022年臺灣是將近七成、67.3%，韓國53%，英國45%，日本41%，新加坡28%，其實在2018年的時候新加坡也有將近50%，但他們努力去規範，現在已經下降到28.6%。但我們臺灣這麼多年墜落致死的比例都一直偏高，在60%、70%，對勞工的保障實在是不足，我現在要請教主委，我們營造業普遍存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況，這個部分的作為請主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果是職業安全的部分，目的事業主管機關他們會經常性的去查核，工程會會針對公共工程，在查核的時候，職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核項目之一。除此之外，如果這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安事故，比方說致死，如果這個採購機關曾經得到金質獎，那有可能連金質獎都要收回，甚至它將來在採購另外一個案子的時候，在評分裡面會列為嚴重扣分，以此來督導公共工程。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，這些相關的作為我也清楚，公共工程委員會針對勞工職災，尤其是公共工程這部分有在努力，但是我要不客氣的跟你說，真的是沒有明顯的改善。我們來看，2020年職災的件數32件、死亡35人、受傷4人，工程查核中發現缺失遭扣點的232件；到2024年，職災的件數也沒有減少，也是32件、死亡32人、受傷2人，沒有明顯的改善，工程查核中發現缺失遭到扣點的171件，也沒有明顯改善，主委，我必須要明確提醒你。","我們營造業的勞動環境保障普遍不足，其實我們要考量公共工程的類型，它多數都是交通建設、環境或是進行各種管線的建設，這是重大職災之中最具危險性的營建類型。工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規，作為表率，保護勞工的安全，其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的問題，未來要如何進行改善，剛才你有說初步的作為，但是沒有明顯改善啊！能有更強而有力的政策推動，尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下，這種翻滾、跌落的死傷有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬，請簡單說明一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會遵照委員的意見，跟勞動部來進行檢討，或者是我們本身內部的查核機制，看要不要針對特定的廠商比較密集查核，或者是扣分的分數要提高，我們再檢討內部的作業，希望職災致死的比例能夠降低，我們內部會檢討。"],["李委員昆澤：這都非常明確，主委，我們看到從2020年到2024年沒有明顯改善，跟社會大眾說明你們有相關的作為，這是毫無說服力的，因為沒有成績，因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來，對於勞工的安全，你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的經濟靠山，主委必須強力地督促公共工程委員會，針對公共工程勞工職業安全環境的基本保障，必須要加強地監督跟落實，以後我會再跟陳主委進行相關的討論。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們來改善。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}