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{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 603.329, \"end\": 603.509, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 603.509, \"end\": 603.67, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 603.67, \"end\": 603.75, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 603.75, \"end\": 603.77, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 603.77, \"end\": 603.85, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 603.85, \"end\": 603.99, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 603.99, \"end\": 604.47, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 604.47, \"end\": 604.49, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,519 --> 00:00:04,401\n謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是\n\n2\n00:00:30,299 --> 00:00:56,190\n有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆\n\n3\n00:00:57,330 --> 00:01:16,074\n第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要\n\n4\n00:01:16,634 --> 00:01:34,750\n落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權\n\n5\n00:01:36,071 --> 00:01:59,221\n因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款\n\n6\n00:02:00,522 --> 00:02:09,189\n被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會\n\n7\n00:02:29,505 --> 00:02:47,041\n這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送\n\n8\n00:02:47,661 --> 00:03:10,556\n那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了\n\n9\n00:03:11,096 --> 00:03:19,466\n所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位\n\n10\n00:03:28,795 --> 00:03:39,722\n是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足\n\n11\n00:03:51,169 --> 00:04:07,830\n可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個\n\n12\n00:04:09,671 --> 00:04:34,380\n層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障\n\n13\n00:04:36,537 --> 00:05:04,424\n因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少\n\n14\n00:05:04,864 --> 00:05:28,099\n是那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些\n\n15\n00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:45,789\n專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個\n\n16\n00:05:47,430 --> 00:06:03,321\n資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是\n\n17\n00:06:04,982 --> 00:06:33,512\n內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何\n\n18\n00:06:37,303 --> 00:06:56,293\n這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦\n\n19\n00:06:56,673 --> 00:07:17,752\n那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範\n\n20\n00:07:20,077 --> 00:07:25,921\n採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個\n\n21\n00:07:49,299 --> 00:08:15,379\n大陸監視器貼牌然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全\n\n22\n00:08:17,015 --> 00:08:41,797\n報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業\n\n23\n00:08:42,877 --> 00:09:02,186\n這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範\n\n24\n00:09:03,868 --> 00:09:27,403\n報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間\n\n25\n00:09:29,028 --> 00:09:48,647\n是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間\n\n26\n00:09:52,058 --> 00:10:04,490\n呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1519\t4401\t謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是\n30299\t56190\t有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆\n57330\t76074\t第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要\n76634\t94750\t落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權\n96071\t119221\t因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款\n120522\t129189\t被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會\n149505\t167041\t這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送\n167661\t190556\t那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了\n191096\t199466\t所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位\n208795\t219722\t是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足\n231169\t247830\t可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個\n249671\t274380\t層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障\n276537\t304424\t因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少\n304864\t328099\t是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些\n330280\t345789\t專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個\n347430\t363321\t資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是\n364982\t393512\t內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何\n397303\t416293\t這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦\n416673\t437752\t那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範\n440077\t445921\t採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個\n469299\t495379\t大陸監視器 貼牌 然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全\n497015\t521797\t報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業\n522877\t542186\t這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範\n543868\t567403\t報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間\n569028\t588647\t是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間\n592058\t604490\t呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是\n有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆\n第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要\n落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權\n因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款\n被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會\n這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送\n那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了\n所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位\n是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足\n可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個\n層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障\n因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少\n是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些\n專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個\n資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是\n內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何\n這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦\n那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範\n採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個\n大陸監視器 貼牌 然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全\n報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業\n這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範\n報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間\n是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間\n呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.519 --> 00:04.401\n謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是\n\n00:30.299 --> 00:56.190\n有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆\n\n00:57.330 --> 01:16.074\n第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要\n\n01:16.634 --> 01:34.750\n落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權\n\n01:36.071 --> 01:59.221\n因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款\n\n02:00.522 --> 02:09.189\n被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會\n\n02:29.505 --> 02:47.041\n這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送\n\n02:47.661 --> 03:10.556\n那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了\n\n03:11.096 --> 03:19.466\n所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位\n\n03:28.795 --> 03:39.722\n是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足\n\n03:51.169 --> 04:07.830\n可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個\n\n04:09.671 --> 04:34.380\n層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障\n\n04:36.537 --> 05:04.424\n因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少\n\n05:04.864 --> 05:28.099\n是那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些\n\n05:30.280 --> 05:45.789\n專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個\n\n05:47.430 --> 06:03.321\n資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是\n\n06:04.982 --> 06:33.512\n內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何\n\n06:37.303 --> 06:56.293\n這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦\n\n06:56.673 --> 07:17.752\n那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範\n\n07:20.077 --> 07:25.921\n採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個\n\n07:49.299 --> 08:15.379\n大陸監視器貼牌然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全\n\n08:17.015 --> 08:41.797\n報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業\n\n08:42.877 --> 09:02.186\n這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範\n\n09:03.868 --> 09:27.403\n報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間\n\n09:29.028 --> 09:48.647\n是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間\n\n09:52.058 --> 10:04.490\n呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.519,"end":4.401,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是"},{"start":30.299,"end":56.19,"text":"有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆"},{"start":57.33,"end":76.074,"text":"第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要"},{"start":76.634,"end":94.75,"text":"落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權"},{"start":96.071,"end":119.221,"text":"因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款"},{"start":120.522,"end":129.189,"text":"被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會"},{"start":149.505,"end":167.041,"text":"這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送"},{"start":167.661,"end":190.556,"text":"那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了"},{"start":191.096,"end":199.466,"text":"所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位"},{"start":208.795,"end":219.722,"text":"是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足"},{"start":231.169,"end":247.83,"text":"可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個"},{"start":249.671,"end":274.38,"text":"層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障"},{"start":276.537,"end":304.424,"text":"因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少"},{"start":304.864,"end":328.099,"text":"是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些"},{"start":330.28,"end":345.789,"text":"專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個"},{"start":347.43,"end":363.321,"text":"資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是"},{"start":364.982,"end":393.512,"text":"內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何"},{"start":397.303,"end":416.293,"text":"這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦"},{"start":416.673,"end":437.752,"text":"那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範"},{"start":440.077,"end":445.921,"text":"採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個"},{"start":469.299,"end":495.379,"text":"大陸監視器 貼牌 然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全"},{"start":497.015,"end":521.797,"text":"報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業"},{"start":522.877,"end":542.186,"text":"這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範"},{"start":543.868,"end":567.403,"text":"報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間"},{"start":569.028,"end":588.647,"text":"是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間"},{"start":592.058,"end":604.49,"text":"呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時9分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。今天委員會是在討論技師法第十一條條文修正草案，我們知道現在營造業大缺工，然後專業技師一樣很難找，因為最近本席跟營造業者針對陳情案在做討論的時候，他們有反映包括甲級、乙級、丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員，也就是專業的技師，可是這方面的人才真的非常難找。我們今天討論技師法第十一條條文的修正草案，這個草案事實上從第9屆到第10屆都有委員提出，但後來都沒有進行處理，因為屆期不連續，所以現在第11屆陳俊宇委員又再針對這一條提出修正草案，本席也有連署啦。關於這一條條文的修正精神，當然就是要落實聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神，當然這是一個主要的精神。不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個重要的部分，就是應該也是要保障專業技師的工作權。因為事實上剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到，有關技師被移送懲處的部分，也有可能或許會因為利害關係，或者是私人恩怨的部分，可能被檢舉、被移送，如果說他因為第十一條第四款被人家用這種理由，主張要撤銷他的技師資格的時候，他是不是沒有申訴的機會？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你說明申訴的部分。"],["陳委員素月：就是說，如果用第四款是不是就會，如果因為現行條文的這種狀況被人家檢舉的話，是不是他就沒有一個申訴、補救的機會？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，這是技師懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方，通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師，他們的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業公會移送，不會由一個利害關係人來移送。依照目前技師法的規定，一旦這個利害關係人提出主張的話，基本上就已經進入到懲戒，他本身不能再進行訴願了，只能進行他有沒有懲戒事由的處理。我們也是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦，因為專業人士一旦進入被懲戒的程序，不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣，對他都已經是一個傷害了，所以我們也是認同委員的提案，這個利害關係人所提的一些訴求，要經過主管機關或者專業公會的篩選以後，是把移送權給主管機關跟專業單位。"],["陳委員素月：所以目前專業技師培訓不易，然後人才也是非常欠缺啦，因為根據營造業他們的反映，他們要去聘任一個專業的技師，真的也是非常的難找。當然剛剛也有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足，可是就這部分，我們應該沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧？就是說，專業的技師，包括土木、水力、測量，或者是建築師，這個部分不可能從國外移工來補足。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，要有國內的證照。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，所以這部分是……因為這是有一個層次、等級的不同嘛，可能就是一般技術性的，比如說，工地的主任，就是屬於比較管理階層的，或許可以，可是這種專業性的，我相信還是沒有辦法嘛，所以就這部分，我們也希望讓專業技師的工作權能夠得到比較妥善的保障。"],["陳主任委員金德：專業技師的確是很熱門啦，所以導致現在連公家機關相關的公務人員，比方說土木類的報到率都很低，因為全部都到……"],["陳委員素月：對，甚至有的人在公務機關服務個兩、三年，他就出去自己開業當建築師了，所以這種人才真的滿欠缺的。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是機關裡面的土木相關人才、相關的人也都非常缺少。"],["陳委員素月：我們也希望工程會就這部分可以有其他的妥善政策，針對這方面的人才，能夠來增加人才的培訓，這是另外一個問題啦。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們有跟考試院在商量考試的方式啦，還有就是在比較偏遠的地區，能夠有一些專設的，讓當地的人能夠有學習或培訓的機制啦，目前我們跟考試院也在商量相關的作法。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。","接下來，我要再關心一個議題，就是有關資安的問題，應該是在兩、三個禮拜前，本委員會在討論資通安全管理法修正草案有關資通安全產品問題的時候，資通安全管理法第十一條的內容是公務機關不得下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品，當時在討論這個條文的時候，有委員主張要把採購列進去，就是說公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品，當時我們在討論的時候，數發部次長主張採購應該要回到採購法，不曉得主委您的看法如何？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，有關採購上的資安問題，目前是透過契約範本去規範，只要涉及國安或機敏性採購，原則上我們一律禁止採用陸資的產品或品牌。甚至目前我們也針對一些有關的AI，譬如說DeepSeek，我們也會要求廠商在履約的過程中，不能因為履約事項去使用這些AI，因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機敏的資訊，所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範。"],["陳委員素月：可是採購範本好像沒有辦法確實防範這樣的資安問題，因為中國的產品確實存在資安的疑慮，這是很明確的。我們從過去很多中國的產品，不管是監視器，或者氣炸鍋，或是掃地機器人，他們都可以植入後門，所以資安問題確實非常嚴重。包括剛剛魯明哲委員關心的，大陸監視器貼牌後就可以流入我們臺灣，對於這種狀況，我們應該真的要去想辦法，要確實有能力去防止，不然我覺得我們國家的資安真的是門戶大開。所以，就資安這部分，採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去落實資通安全？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，確實我們應就整個紅色供應鏈，包括人、物、資本要一起來看，目前確實比較散落在各處，我們目前內部也在研議，就整個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分，有一個比較系統性的法規化的作業，目前正在進行這樣的作業。"],["陳委員素月：是，這個跟我的想法不謀而合，我正要詢問，既然你提到了，這部分的研議多久時間可以完成？就是你們針對紅色供應鏈，不管是人、物等等，你們多久可以提出一個妥善的規範？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分，因為畢竟不是工程會的專業……"],["陳委員素月：但主委是政委，政委可以統籌啊。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對，所以我們必須跟數發部有所溝通，所以這部分的時間比較不容易掌握，如果光我們自己的部分比較容易掌握，跟數發部的協商可能要有一點時間。"],["陳委員素月：是，主委，你也是政委，你應該要來督促這件事？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會跟數發部或相關部會共同來研議，儘速完成剛才副主委所提的，比較系統性的防杜。"],["陳委員素月：是。好，那要儘速，不曉得主委可不可以給個時間？至少要給個時間才有壓力。"],["陳主任委員金德：坦白講，資訊這部分我也是外行，容我們跟數發部開過一次會之後，再跟委員報告，好不好？"],["陳委員素月：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}