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\"end\": 153.47, \"text\": \"馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 125.738, \"end\": 126.518, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"亞\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 126.518, \"end\": 127.959, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 127.959, \"end\": 129.02, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 129.02, \"end\": 129.76, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 129.76, \"end\": 131.741, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 131.741, \"end\": 131.901, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 131.901, \"end\": 132.041, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 132.041, \"end\": 132.721, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"織\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 132.721, \"end\": 133.181, 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{\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 650.701, \"end\": 650.781, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 650.781, \"end\": 651.002, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 651.002, \"end\": 651.122, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 651.122, \"end\": 651.402, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 651.402, \"end\": 651.562, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 651.562, \"end\": 651.762, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 651.762, \"end\": 651.882, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 651.882, \"end\": 652.162, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 652.162, \"end\": 652.382, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.382, \"end\": 652.563, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 652.563, \"end\": 652.703, \"score\": 0.868}, 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\"end\": 704.721, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 704.721, \"end\": 705.341, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 705.341, \"end\": 705.901, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 705.901, \"end\": 706.562, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 706.562, \"end\": 706.762, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 706.762, \"end\": 706.782, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 709.185, \"end\": 709.205, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:05,113\n我們有請林怡瑾好謝謝主席有請次長有請次長\n\n2\n00:00:14,399 --> 00:00:34,959\n我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立\n\n3\n00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:58,323\n那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點\n\n4\n00:00:59,384 --> 00:01:24,479\n好那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS\n\n5\n00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:45,918\n前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式\n\n6\n00:01:46,639 --> 00:02:03,795\n那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞\n\n7\n00:02:05,738 --> 00:02:33,470\n馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的\n\n8\n00:02:35,471 --> 00:02:50,957\n實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們\n\n9\n00:02:52,177 --> 00:03:09,452\n並且啦大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何\n\n10\n00:03:11,154 --> 00:03:31,352\n首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是\n\n11\n00:03:32,293 --> 00:03:58,878\n同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請\n\n12\n00:04:00,058 --> 00:04:15,158\n這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得\n\n13\n00:04:16,340 --> 00:04:31,476\n有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一\n\n14\n00:04:34,779 --> 00:05:01,449\n虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说\n\n15\n00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:21,301\n反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見\n\n16\n00:05:22,182 --> 00:05:42,164\n所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的\n\n17\n00:05:43,291 --> 00:05:57,251\n文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已\n\n18\n00:05:58,735 --> 00:06:06,461\n因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can'thelp已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓\n\n19\n00:06:23,795 --> 00:06:48,827\n我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門歐盟歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些\n\n20\n00:06:50,328 --> 00:07:05,688\n這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心\n\n21\n00:07:06,369 --> 00:07:22,720\n所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好謝謝委員其實\n\n22\n00:07:28,874 --> 00:07:52,820\n如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個\n\n23\n00:07:54,244 --> 00:08:15,690\nEcomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內\n\n24\n00:08:19,731 --> 00:08:47,656\n這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘\n\n25\n00:08:48,396 --> 00:09:08,334\n我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛\n\n26\n00:09:09,855 --> 00:09:31,769\n台灣CanHelp這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做\n\n27\n00:09:33,570 --> 00:09:48,044\n那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣\n\n28\n00:09:49,765 --> 00:10:07,712\n最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護\n\n29\n00:10:13,334 --> 00:10:30,128\n本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是除了更進一步\n\n30\n00:10:30,728 --> 00:10:53,663\n要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點\n\n31\n00:10:54,704 --> 00:11:18,266\n第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產\n\n32\n00:11:19,367 --> 00:11:46,782\n那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席\n\n33\n00:11:49,185 --> 00:11:49,205\n謝謝次長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t5113\t我們有請林怡瑾好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長\n14399\t34959\t我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立\n35800\t58323\t那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點\n59384\t84479\t好 那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS\n86700\t105918\t前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式\n106639\t123795\t那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞\n125738\t153470\t馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的\n155471\t170957\t實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們\n172177\t189452\t並且啦 大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何\n191154\t211352\t首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是\n212293\t238878\t同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請\n240058\t255158\t這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得\n256340\t271476\t有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一\n274779\t301449\t虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说\n302900\t321301\t反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見\n322182\t342164\t所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的\n343291\t357251\t文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已\n358735\t366461\t因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can't help已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓\n383795\t408827\t我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門 歐盟 歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些\n410328\t425688\t這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心\n426369\t442720\t所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好 謝謝委員其實\n448874\t472820\t如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個\n474244\t495690\tEcomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內\n499731\t527656\t這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘\n528396\t548334\t我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛\n549855\t571769\t台灣Can Help這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做\n573570\t588044\t那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣\n589765\t607712\t最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護\n613334\t630128\t本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是 除了更進一步\n630728\t653663\t要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點\n654704\t678266\t第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產\n679367\t706782\t那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席\n709185\t709205\t謝謝次長\n","txt":"我們有請林怡瑾好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長\n我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立\n那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點\n好 那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS\n前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式\n那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞\n馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的\n實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們\n並且啦 大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何\n首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是\n同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請\n這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得\n有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一\n虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说\n反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見\n所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的\n文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已\n因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can't help已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓\n我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門 歐盟 歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些\n這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心\n所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好 謝謝委員其實\n如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個\nEcomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內\n這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘\n我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛\n台灣Can Help這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做\n那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣\n最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護\n本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是 除了更進一步\n要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點\n第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產\n那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席\n謝謝次長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:05.113\n我們有請林怡瑾好謝謝主席有請次長有請次長\n\n00:14.399 --> 00:34.959\n我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立\n\n00:35.800 --> 00:58.323\n那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點\n\n00:59.384 --> 01:24.479\n好那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS\n\n01:26.700 --> 01:45.918\n前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式\n\n01:46.639 --> 02:03.795\n那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞\n\n02:05.738 --> 02:33.470\n馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的\n\n02:35.471 --> 02:50.957\n實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們\n\n02:52.177 --> 03:09.452\n並且啦大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何\n\n03:11.154 --> 03:31.352\n首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是\n\n03:32.293 --> 03:58.878\n同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請\n\n04:00.058 --> 04:15.158\n這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得\n\n04:16.340 --> 04:31.476\n有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一\n\n04:34.779 --> 05:01.449\n虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说\n\n05:02.900 --> 05:21.301\n反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見\n\n05:22.182 --> 05:42.164\n所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的\n\n05:43.291 --> 05:57.251\n文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已\n\n05:58.735 --> 06:06.461\n因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can'thelp已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓\n\n06:23.795 --> 06:48.827\n我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門歐盟歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些\n\n06:50.328 --> 07:05.688\n這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心\n\n07:06.369 --> 07:22.720\n所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好謝謝委員其實\n\n07:28.874 --> 07:52.820\n如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個\n\n07:54.244 --> 08:15.690\nEcomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內\n\n08:19.731 --> 08:47.656\n這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘\n\n08:48.396 --> 09:08.334\n我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛\n\n09:09.855 --> 09:31.769\n台灣CanHelp這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做\n\n09:33.570 --> 09:48.044\n那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣\n\n09:49.765 --> 10:07.712\n最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護\n\n10:13.334 --> 10:30.128\n本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是除了更進一步\n\n10:30.728 --> 10:53.663\n要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點\n\n10:54.704 --> 11:18.266\n第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產\n\n11:19.367 --> 11:46.782\n那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席\n\n11:49.185 --> 11:49.205\n謝謝次長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":5.113,"text":"我們有請林怡瑾好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":14.399,"end":34.959,"text":"我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立"},{"start":35.8,"end":58.323,"text":"那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點"},{"start":59.384,"end":84.479,"text":"好 那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS"},{"start":86.7,"end":105.918,"text":"前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式"},{"start":106.639,"end":123.795,"text":"那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞"},{"start":125.738,"end":153.47,"text":"馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的"},{"start":155.471,"end":170.957,"text":"實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們"},{"start":172.177,"end":189.452,"text":"並且啦 大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何"},{"start":191.154,"end":211.352,"text":"首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是"},{"start":212.293,"end":238.878,"text":"同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請"},{"start":240.058,"end":255.158,"text":"這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得"},{"start":256.34,"end":271.476,"text":"有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一"},{"start":274.779,"end":301.449,"text":"虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说"},{"start":302.9,"end":321.301,"text":"反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見"},{"start":322.182,"end":342.164,"text":"所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的"},{"start":343.291,"end":357.251,"text":"文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已"},{"start":358.735,"end":366.461,"text":"因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can't help已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓"},{"start":383.795,"end":408.827,"text":"我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門 歐盟 歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些"},{"start":410.328,"end":425.688,"text":"這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心"},{"start":426.369,"end":442.72,"text":"所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好 謝謝委員其實"},{"start":448.874,"end":472.82,"text":"如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個"},{"start":474.244,"end":495.69,"text":"Ecomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內"},{"start":499.731,"end":527.656,"text":"這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘"},{"start":528.396,"end":548.334,"text":"我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛"},{"start":549.855,"end":571.769,"text":"台灣Can Help這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做"},{"start":573.57,"end":588.044,"text":"那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣"},{"start":589.765,"end":607.712,"text":"最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護"},{"start":613.334,"end":630.128,"text":"本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是 除了更進一步"},{"start":630.728,"end":653.663,"text":"要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點"},{"start":654.704,"end":678.266,"text":"第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產"},{"start":679.367,"end":706.782,"text":"那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":709.185,"end":709.205,"text":"謝謝次長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時43分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：召委早。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。本席今天會排這個專報，主要的核心目標有三個：第一個就是想請文化部說明，登錄世界遺產的相關策略和期程；第二個也想請文化部說明的是，保存及申登世界遺產，明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立；第三也是要請文化部說明，無論是透過修正文化資產保存法，又或者是啟動其他的立法機制，針對世界遺產潛力點本身，文化部願意提供怎麼樣國家層級的保護？這是我今天排這個案子的三大重點。","臺灣不是聯合國的會員國，可是為了因應這項問題，多年來社會各界就一直在倡議，是不是能透過日本等友好國家進行跨國聯合申遺這種策略？就連文資局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國教科文組織ICOMOS前副主席西村幸夫的說法，他表示臺灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國，但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請，再將臺灣納入跨國申請的地址之一，會是一種解套的方式。","西村幸夫舉的案例就是樂生療養院，他說漢生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗，審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理。我們看日本，特別是馬來西亞，馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織世界遺產的暫時名單過，就是這個希望之谷。可是文化部今天的報告卻直接否定跨國聯合申遺的可能性，這是不是也是在跟國人表示，刊登在文資局網站上的西村幸夫的這個論述是錯的？實際上，我們都很清楚臺灣國際處境的艱難，也正因為如此，才更凸顯跨國聯合申遺的重要性。我想此時此刻世界高度認同臺灣，並且大家都同聲譴責中國的惡行，我覺得我們在這個時候，更應該把握這個關鍵時刻對外發聲，所以真的要請次長來說明一下，我們日後申登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何？"],["李次長靜慧：首先跟委員報告，其實我第一次聽到西村幸夫老師講這個話的時候，我真的也非常興奮，我想我們的森林鐵路可以看要怎麼樣跟日本聯合申請，還有我們的火車頭，這個是我們可移動的遺產，它是美國生產，目前在全世界只剩下那一臺了。我很興奮的想了半天，可是同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現，即使是聯合申請，每一個申請國依然必須是會員國或那個公約的締約組織之一，才有辦法聯合申請，不然的話，即使是聯合申請，我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭，沒有辦法獨立以我們自己的主權申請，這個是同仁去了解的細節。對於西村老師的提醒，因為他有提到案例，我們也去查了，看有沒有不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請方式得到的情形，目前查到的唯一資料就是庫克群島。"],["林委員宜瑾：還是沒有辦法？"],["李次長靜慧：有一個是庫克群島，但庫克群島跟紐西蘭之間有一定的關係，紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一，所以它就是那個公約的締約國之一。雖然它不是聯合國的會員國，可是它是那個世界遺產公約的締約國，所以它就可以跟別的國家聯合去申請世界遺產。對這個部分其實同仁有努力觀察國際上是用什麼樣的形式申請，或者是有沒有什麼機會、有沒有任何的變化，我們都持續關注。到目前為止，我們查到的是反正在三種身分中一定要有一個，現在比較麻煩的就是我們這三種身分都拿不到，除非我們要放棄我們臺灣的國家標示，然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主體裡面，我想這也不是是國人所樂見的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李次長靜慧：所以在整個策略上來講，雖然我們沒有報名資格，可是要持續讓國際上的人知道，讓他們來親眼看臺灣每一項文化資產的保存或文化價值都非常具有世界遺產這樣的能量。我們一直跟他們說，我們模擬考都考得很好，我考試真的能過，就是讓這些考試委員們知道，我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已。"],["林委員宜瑾：像在醫療發展上，我們「Taiwan Can Help」已經是一個響徹國際的口號，也是全球公認的事實，我們如果用WHA這個例子來看，我們就很清楚的知道，即便中國一直在阻撓，我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象。像今年的G7或者是目前有五十多個國家，不管是行政、立法部門、歐盟、歐洲議會還有跟臺灣理念相近的一些駐臺機構，其實都一直以很具體的行動，表達對臺灣的國際支持，或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持。我們既然在醫療發展上看到衛福部跟外交部攜手的決心，我想在文化發展上，臺灣的態度當然也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部攜手。次長，在申登世界遺產這件事情上，要怎麼有效的跨部會再去努力？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員，第一個，我們如果要踏出國際的話，跟外交部的合作真的非常、非常的重要。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["李次長靜慧：所以我們也曾經提議過，就像WHA，我們雖然不能夠進去開會，可是會有很多的醫師團體或醫療團體到門口去拿牌子。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["李次長靜慧：不瞞委員說，我也曾經跟外交部講過，在ICOMOS或者ICOM開會時，我們也可以去會場門口掛牌子，可是對這個部分外交部有它的考量，因為目前我們要努力地加入國際組織，他們有6個一定要維持住的，像航空、警政這些部分，文化能不能擠進去，也納入外交部積極申請國際單位這樣的範圍內，這個部分外交部還有它的考量，我們沒有放棄，我們繼續在支持。剛剛我們在報告裡面也特別提到外交部的政務次長，這是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的官員來參加我們的這個推動會。其實李遠部長也抱持非常大的信心跟期待，我們會持續跟外交部溝通要如何發聲，讓人家知道我們準備好了，我們可以了。","委員，我再用1分鐘向委員說明。在我上次去捷克的時候，他們跟我們講捷克有一個世界遺產的橋梁，他說在當時修復這個橋梁的時候，是臺灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋梁修復，他說捷克非常感謝臺灣這件事情，所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛講的「Taiwan Can Help」，像我們那時候協助大家提供口罩，我們在文資修復上面的確有那樣的能力、有那樣的觀念，所以雖然我們自己申請世遺拿不到，可是其他國家的世遺如果需要修復、保存技術上的交流或提供，或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做。關於這個部分，我當時想我回來要跟文資局講，我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資，在國外文資有這些需求的時候，我們也可以提供，透過這樣跟國際的鏈結，更努力的讓大家看到臺灣。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後要再用30秒跟次長討論，我們現在除了臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點以外，我想可以透過文資法的修正或專法的訂定，進一步賦予我國世界遺產潛力點更高國家層級的保護。本席現在有草擬一份文資法的修正案，新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章，近期就會連署並送進委員會。本席的修正及新增條文有14條，除了要更進一步接軌國際文化遺產保護體系，也直接賦予我國現在世界遺產潛力點，文資法所訂最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身分，並且我也要求未來新增的這些潛力點必須符合這些身分。我之所以要做出這樣的規範，第一個，我想當然要保護我們臺灣的這些世界遺產潛力點；第二個就是要反映現行體系的矛盾以及潛力點保護工作的欠缺。我們試想，如果連臺灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級文資或自然地景的身分，那我們如何去說服國際讓我們申登世界遺產？又如何在法律的明確規範下，好好保護我們的世界遺產潛力點？所以我的意思是這樣的規範是必須要處理的。次長，請問您怎麼看？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，我們也正在討論文資法的修正案，委員提出這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式，也請委員可以提供給我們，我們一併來研議，好嗎？"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}}