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[{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 188.735, \"end\": 188.855, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 188.855, \"end\": 189.135, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 189.135, \"end\": 189.155, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 219.079, \"end\": 247.875, \"text\": \"整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 219.079, \"end\": 219.259, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 219.259, \"end\": 219.539, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 219.539, \"end\": 219.699, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 219.699, \"end\": 219.94, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 219.94, \"end\": 220.32, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 220.32, \"end\": 220.48, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 220.48, \"end\": 220.9, 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699.119, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 699.119, \"end\": 699.279, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 699.279, \"end\": 699.299, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,765 --> 00:00:37,578\n好謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法安慰辦法它跟職安法\n\n2\n00:00:37,978 --> 00:00:59,454\n各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修\n\n3\n00:01:01,749 --> 00:01:06,251\n謝謝委員這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部\n\n4\n00:01:32,177 --> 00:01:34,999\n討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的\n\n5\n00:01:39,181 --> 00:02:02,185\n去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明謝謝沒問題好那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的撤案的或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中\n\n6\n00:02:02,665 --> 00:02:22,528\n其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程\n\n7\n00:02:23,530 --> 00:02:37,189\n讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒\n\n8\n00:02:38,671 --> 00:03:05,893\n處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程\n\n9\n00:03:08,735 --> 00:03:09,155\n跟委員報告\n\n10\n00:03:39,079 --> 00:04:07,875\n整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外\n\n11\n00:04:09,016 --> 00:04:33,426\n那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定\n\n12\n00:04:34,547 --> 00:04:49,697\n習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴\n\n13\n00:04:50,758 --> 00:05:10,098\n就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子\n\n14\n00:05:10,618 --> 00:05:21,031\n那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊\n\n15\n00:05:27,319 --> 00:05:45,469\n那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好\n\n16\n00:05:47,662 --> 00:06:05,648\n好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署\n\n17\n00:06:07,248 --> 00:06:35,927\n還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位\n\n18\n00:06:37,348 --> 00:07:03,511\n那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性\n\n19\n00:07:04,011 --> 00:07:23,164\n然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:25,942 --> 00:07:54,090\n是的如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷\n\n21\n00:07:54,830 --> 00:08:16,940\n那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法\n\n22\n00:08:19,401 --> 00:08:40,612\n這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動\n\n23\n00:08:54,631 --> 00:08:59,636\n所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面\n\n24\n00:09:16,351 --> 00:09:32,157\n那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有\n\n25\n00:09:33,278 --> 00:09:42,164\n這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好\n\n26\n00:10:02,418 --> 00:10:27,187\n那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去\n\n27\n00:10:29,086 --> 00:10:48,553\n謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的\n\n28\n00:10:49,753 --> 00:11:17,441\n的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對\n\n29\n00:11:18,181 --> 00:11:39,299\n所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14765\t37578\t好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好 剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法 安慰辦法它跟職安法\n37978\t59454\t各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修\n61749\t66251\t謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部\n92177\t94999\t討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的\n99181\t122185\t去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的 撤案的 或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中\n122665\t142528\t其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程\n143530\t157189\t讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒\n158671\t185893\t處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程\n188735\t189155\t跟委員報告\n219079\t247875\t整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外\n249016\t273426\t那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定\n274547\t289697\t習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴\n290758\t310098\t就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子\n310618\t321031\t那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊\n327319\t345469\t那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好\n347662\t365648\t好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署\n367248\t395927\t還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位\n397348\t423511\t那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性\n424011\t443164\t然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?\n445942\t474090\t是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷\n474830\t496940\t那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法\n499401\t520612\t這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動\n522193\t532739\t謝謝\n534631\t539636\t所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面\n556351\t572157\t那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有\n573278\t582164\t這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好\n602418\t627187\t那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去\n629086\t648553\t謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的\n649753\t677441\t的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對\n678181\t699299\t所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好 剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法 安慰辦法它跟職安法\n各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修\n謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部\n討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的\n去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的 撤案的 或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中\n其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程\n讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒\n處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程\n跟委員報告\n整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外\n那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定\n習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴\n就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子\n那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊\n那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好\n好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署\n還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位\n那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性\n然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?\n是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷\n那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法\n這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動\n謝謝\n所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面\n那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有\n這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好\n那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去\n謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的\n的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對\n所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.765 --> 00:37.578\n好謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法安慰辦法它跟職安法\n\n00:37.978 --> 00:59.454\n各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修\n\n01:01.749 --> 01:06.251\n謝謝委員這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部\n\n01:32.177 --> 01:34.999\n討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的\n\n01:39.181 --> 02:02.185\n去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明謝謝沒問題好那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的撤案的或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中\n\n02:02.665 --> 02:22.528\n其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程\n\n02:23.530 --> 02:37.189\n讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒\n\n02:38.671 --> 03:05.893\n處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程\n\n03:08.735 --> 03:09.155\n跟委員報告\n\n03:39.079 --> 04:07.875\n整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外\n\n04:09.016 --> 04:33.426\n那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定\n\n04:34.547 --> 04:49.697\n習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴\n\n04:50.758 --> 05:10.098\n就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子\n\n05:10.618 --> 05:21.031\n那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊\n\n05:27.319 --> 05:45.469\n那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好\n\n05:47.662 --> 06:05.648\n好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署\n\n06:07.248 --> 06:35.927\n還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位\n\n06:37.348 --> 07:03.511\n那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性\n\n07:04.011 --> 07:23.164\n然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?\n\n07:25.942 --> 07:54.090\n是的如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷\n\n07:54.830 --> 08:16.940\n那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法\n\n08:19.401 --> 08:40.612\n這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動\n\n08:54.631 --> 08:59.636\n所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面\n\n09:16.351 --> 09:32.157\n那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有\n\n09:33.278 --> 09:42.164\n這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好\n\n10:02.418 --> 10:27.187\n那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去\n\n10:29.086 --> 10:48.553\n謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的\n\n10:49.753 --> 11:17.441\n的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對\n\n11:18.181 --> 11:39.299\n所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.765,"end":37.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好 剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法 安慰辦法它跟職安法"},{"start":37.978,"end":59.454,"text":"各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修"},{"start":61.749,"end":66.251,"text":"謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部"},{"start":92.177,"end":94.999,"text":"討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的"},{"start":99.181,"end":122.185,"text":"去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的 撤案的 或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中"},{"start":122.665,"end":142.528,"text":"其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程"},{"start":143.53,"end":157.189,"text":"讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒"},{"start":158.671,"end":185.893,"text":"處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程"},{"start":188.735,"end":189.155,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":219.079,"end":247.875,"text":"整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外"},{"start":249.016,"end":273.426,"text":"那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定"},{"start":274.547,"end":289.697,"text":"習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴"},{"start":290.758,"end":310.098,"text":"就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子"},{"start":310.618,"end":321.031,"text":"那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊"},{"start":327.319,"end":345.469,"text":"那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好"},{"start":347.662,"end":365.648,"text":"好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署"},{"start":367.248,"end":395.927,"text":"還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位"},{"start":397.348,"end":423.511,"text":"那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性"},{"start":424.011,"end":443.164,"text":"然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?"},{"start":445.942,"end":474.09,"text":"是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷"},{"start":474.83,"end":496.94,"text":"那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法"},{"start":499.401,"end":520.612,"text":"這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動"},{"start":522.193,"end":532.739,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":534.631,"end":539.636,"text":"所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面"},{"start":556.351,"end":572.157,"text":"那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有"},{"start":573.278,"end":582.164,"text":"這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好"},{"start":602.418,"end":627.187,"text":"那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去"},{"start":629.086,"end":648.553,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的"},{"start":649.753,"end":677.441,"text":"的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對"},{"start":678.181,"end":699.299,"text":"所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時39分）謝謝主席。我就先跟保訓會對話，剛剛思瑤幹事長有先提了關於我們的修正動議，其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分。因為剛剛你已經說明，我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力。不過我覺得今天非常重要的事情是，我們看到相關的公務人員保障法、安衛辦法跟職安法各自做了保護，如同思瑤剛剛說的，我們先抓漏，很希望今天後續的審查可以非常順利往這裡一起努力。關於學校的部分，公立學校尤其是這樣，接下來是醫療機構的部分，如果這個修正動議沒有問題，是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。這個沒有問題，這樣更清楚、明確，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，這個也跟教育部或者衛福部討論過嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這個有跟勞動部討論過。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：當時第一百零二條請相關單位來，衛福部跟教育部沒有特別提出來，但是在兩天前我們有特別跟教育部討論這件事情，他們也希望在第一百零二條這個地方能夠很清楚地顯示出來，他們是適用職安法的。以上說明，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒問題。既然各個部會都討論過，我想那就不會只是我們閉門造車，所以我們後續往這裡努力。稍早也有委員提到關於人事總處統計霸凌案通報平臺的執行狀況，不管是已經成案的、撤案的或者是已經結案的，又或者是後續調查之中，其實我在上一次的質詢當中，也跟你們討論到關於所謂外聘人員這件事情的重要性，我猜想你們應該已經做了相關研究。剛剛思瑤也有提到，這個是教育部霸凌防制準則所做的經驗，他們甚至做了通報平臺的流程，讓所有有關、事涉的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去通報。我知道你們在外部人才資料庫這邊會跟教育部或衛福部合作，但是我要順便一併提醒，處理流程的建置也很重要，因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的，我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組，相關委員也會有外聘，同時會確保他們的專業知能，真的可以協助處理公務人員職場霸凌，但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下，目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃，也就是專屬於公務人員申報平臺的流程？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這是我們目前還在進行規劃中的一個部分，但是當然還沒有規劃到這麼仔細……"],["陳委員培瑜：這麼仔細，是。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，我們會遵照委員所提供的教育部調查流程，這個看起來非常、非常縝密，然後再去把它……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為場域可能不同、對象不同，但是我們會讓整個申報，還有包含整個調查，盡可能周延、縝密，讓外部監督的比重高一點，還有公開透明。謝謝委員提供這一張，我們回去會把它拿來看一看。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以再跟教育部討論，但是我剛剛已經提醒大家，因為職場的樣態不一樣、生態也不一樣，所以這個流程絕對不會長得一樣，而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣，所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰，除了建置外部委員資料庫之外。另外也想跟保訓會分享，我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境，目前教育單位已經在處理了，我們跟國教署討論過，是什麼樣態呢？就是當外部委員專業化並且資料庫化之後，有一些學校的案件可能就固定習慣找某些外部委員配合，結果就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈，也就是說，開始有現場被指稱為加害者，或者是受害者，他們會開始提出另外一個控訴，就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案，或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案，甚至還有人開始打廣告，標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子。因為在調查過程當中、撰寫報告過程當中，或者是其他過程當中，都會產生費用，確實現場開始出現這樣的廣告，就開始有人擔心會不會有這個調查產業鏈，我們要怎麼防弊？關於教育部那邊的狀況，我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部，教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查，我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向，這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會，我想作為未來的防弊也非常非常地重要，好不好？","接下來我要請銓敘部，辛苦了！我想跟您討論一下，目前9月份運動部成立在即，我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少，目前在運動部的業務當中，跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署，還有適應運動司，甚至它跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡，本席想要跟銓敘部這邊討論，我就是先做一個友善的提醒，目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員，我們看到目前網站上已經開了80個職缺，80個，非常非常多，未來他們要逐年增加到400位；目前的體育署只有100位，再考80位，然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位。我們非常擔心一件事情，我剛剛講了這麼多，因為它會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中，我們知道現在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因，可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情，或是他有不適任的各種可能性，於是他就被迫離開公務機關，甚至還有犯了相關兒少法，可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔！他可能只是暫時停聘幾年，或者是暫時多久多久，他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這個職缺，對嗎？銓敘部，我的擔心是對的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：是的，如果他本來就有公務人員任用資格，因為某些原因離開，事實上他是還有權利來應徵工作。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，他有權利，我們當然要保障他的工作權。如果我們希望進到運動部，為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員，他們在相關的認知上，必須對兒少建立正確的認知，導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷，我們有沒有機會參考教師法，因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理，其實是有相關比較積極的條件設計，例如犯了學校性平的問題，或者是受到兒少性剝削防制條例犯罪的可能性，還有曾經有體罰、霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法，它被放在教師法裡面積極的設定，這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域，跟兒童、跟青少年一起工作，我先說我不確定，銓敘部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定？我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論，但是因為時間有限，我想這個提醒是針對運動部未來兒少業務的友善提醒，但實質上，如何落實這件事情，也需要您的專業意見，好不好？"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們可以做相關的研議嗎？"],["懷次長敍：對不起！我以為就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：提醒啦！你們有機會做相關的研議嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，公務員都有他的履歷資料表，過去他的行為因為某些原因，譬如說被懲戒、懲處，事跡都會寫在上面，我們會提醒運動部的人事單位，未來在進用這些人的時候，仔細審閱他的履歷表，尤其是剛剛委員提到，他如果是離職再任的，要去了解他當年離職再任的原因是什麼，因為這個事實上都有人事資料的歷程軌跡。謝謝委員的提醒，因為他們目前都還在進行中，我們會特別跟運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管同仁，特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細篩選。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為這個未來其實沒有太未來，他們目前已經開缺80個。"],["懷次長敍：是、是，我理解。是，了解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就拜託銓敘部。"],["懷次長敍：我們會提醒他們處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極討論，當然，我們也已經提醒運動部了。"],["懷次長敍：是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則，你們已經做了預告，這個版本其實跟2月的版本有一些差異，有些基層同仁的反映，我想你們應該是清楚跟知道的，對於預告細則出來，他們可能有一些疑慮，他們認為很多聲音沒有被採納，但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒，希望後續你們再搭配修法的時候，可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去。"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝委員的提醒。因為事實上，我們目前在修正的方向跟原來最早的方向是一致的，因為我們在草案出來的時候，很多的機關，特別我們必須要考量的，例如花東地區、偏遠地區，他們也都有強烈建議。事實上我們目前的版本跟原來設計方式是一樣，即三個月加三個月，原來本身就是這樣，只是最後如果因為有偏遠地區等等這些，最多也就是三個月，還是跟原來的總時數是一樣。這部分我們也理解，希望中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間，我們要有一個平衡。因為這是法令公告，還在公告中嘛……"],["陳委員培瑜：對！沒錯、沒錯。"],["懷次長敍：所以我們也是在收集各方意見，最後我們會儘量朝大家認為都可以的方向進行處理，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善提醒。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝您。"],["陳委員培瑜：不過聽到您很正向的回應，就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音，而且考慮到臺灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態差異。"],["懷次長敍：有，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，以上，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來有請羅智強委員。","我在這邊先做一個會議程序的宣告：在羅智強委員詢答完畢之後，先休息5分鐘，之後再請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}