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213.135, \"end\": 241.266, \"text\": \"所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 213.135, \"end\": 213.315, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 213.315, \"end\": 213.535, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 213.535, \"end\": 213.675, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 213.675, \"end\": 214.015, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 214.015, \"end\": 214.275, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 214.275, \"end\": 214.796, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 214.796, \"end\": 215.356, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 215.356, \"end\": 215.476, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 215.476, \"end\": 215.676, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 215.676, 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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 649.958, \"end\": 650.078, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 650.078, \"end\": 650.298, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 650.298, \"end\": 650.458, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 650.458, \"end\": 650.618, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 650.618, \"end\": 650.678, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 650.678, \"end\": 650.838, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 650.838, \"end\": 651.118, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 651.118, \"end\": 651.378, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 651.378, \"end\": 651.398, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,691 --> 00:00:12,498\n好謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,525 --> 00:00:40,583\n辛苦了主委我想齁其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師包括工程人員包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁我們可以盡量去想啦盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度\n\n3\n00:00:42,042 --> 00:01:09,756\n就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為\n\n4\n00:01:11,380 --> 00:01:22,205\n最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是\n\n5\n00:01:38,905 --> 00:02:01,875\n要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票\n\n6\n00:02:04,503 --> 00:02:22,159\n還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦\n\n7\n00:02:23,191 --> 00:02:47,317\n那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說\n\n8\n00:02:49,079 --> 00:03:03,475\n我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改\n\n9\n00:03:06,268 --> 00:03:31,600\n那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦\n\n10\n00:03:33,135 --> 00:04:01,266\n所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識\n\n11\n00:04:02,646 --> 00:04:24,612\n所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大\n\n12\n00:04:30,333 --> 00:04:46,775\n所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實\n\n13\n00:04:48,457 --> 00:05:15,907\n很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說\n\n14\n00:05:16,967 --> 00:05:27,380\n資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則\n\n15\n00:05:28,753 --> 00:05:55,641\n我請副主委來跟您說包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對我想我意思是我們政府民意要注意的因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能也有這種可能性啦\n\n16\n00:05:56,201 --> 00:06:18,671\n我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對\n\n17\n00:06:20,538 --> 00:06:47,186\n因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了\n\n18\n00:06:48,919 --> 00:07:17,468\n我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊\n\n19\n00:07:22,102 --> 00:07:39,801\n它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道\n\n20\n00:07:40,362 --> 00:07:56,505\n那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救\n\n21\n00:07:57,987 --> 00:08:10,534\n這一點拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係\n\n22\n00:08:12,728 --> 00:08:33,837\n他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解\n\n23\n00:08:41,701 --> 00:08:46,143\n醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼\n\n24\n00:08:58,751 --> 00:09:19,422\n這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候\n\n25\n00:09:21,025 --> 00:09:29,350\n假設我現在要不去請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合\n\n26\n00:09:32,199 --> 00:09:48,626\n這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始\n\n27\n00:09:51,227 --> 00:09:58,895\n甚至有的是比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛\n\n28\n00:10:07,063 --> 00:10:26,855\n那他一定有他的想法但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小就希望主委我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導\n\n29\n00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:51,398\n或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2691\t12498\t好 謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好\n16525\t40583\t辛苦了 主委 我想齁 其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁 我們可以盡量去想啦 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度\n42042\t69756\t就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為\n71380\t82205\t最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是\n98905\t121875\t要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票\n124503\t142159\t還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦\n143191\t167317\t那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說\n169079\t183475\t我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改\n186268\t211600\t那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦\n213135\t241266\t所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識\n242646\t264612\t所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大\n270333\t286775\t所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實\n288457\t315907\t很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說\n316967\t327380\t資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則\n328753\t355641\t我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對 我想 我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的 那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性啦\n356201\t378671\t我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對\n380538\t407186\t因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了\n408919\t437468\t我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊\n442102\t459801\t它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道\n460362\t476505\t那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救\n477987\t490534\t這一點 拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係\n492728\t513837\t他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解\n521701\t526143\t醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼\n538751\t559422\t這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候\n561025\t569350\t假設我現在要不去 請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合\n572199\t588626\t這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始\n591227\t598895\t甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛\n607063\t626855\t那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候 也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就希望主委 我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導\n628570\t651398\t或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦 就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好 再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好\n辛苦了 主委 我想齁 其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁 我們可以盡量去想啦 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度\n就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為\n最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是\n要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票\n還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦\n那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說\n我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改\n那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦\n所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識\n所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大\n所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實\n很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說\n資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則\n我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對 我想 我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的 那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性啦\n我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對\n因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了\n我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊\n它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道\n那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救\n這一點 拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係\n他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解\n醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼\n這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候\n假設我現在要不去 請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合\n這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始\n甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛\n那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候 也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就希望主委 我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導\n或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦 就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好 再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.691 --> 00:12.498\n好謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好\n\n00:16.525 --> 00:40.583\n辛苦了主委我想齁其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師包括工程人員包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁我們可以盡量去想啦盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度\n\n00:42.042 --> 01:09.756\n就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為\n\n01:11.380 --> 01:22.205\n最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是\n\n01:38.905 --> 02:01.875\n要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票\n\n02:04.503 --> 02:22.159\n還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦\n\n02:23.191 --> 02:47.317\n那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說\n\n02:49.079 --> 03:03.475\n我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改\n\n03:06.268 --> 03:31.600\n那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦\n\n03:33.135 --> 04:01.266\n所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識\n\n04:02.646 --> 04:24.612\n所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大\n\n04:30.333 --> 04:46.775\n所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實\n\n04:48.457 --> 05:15.907\n很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說\n\n05:16.967 --> 05:27.380\n資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則\n\n05:28.753 --> 05:55.641\n我請副主委來跟您說包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對我想我意思是我們政府民意要注意的因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能也有這種可能性啦\n\n05:56.201 --> 06:18.671\n我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對\n\n06:20.538 --> 06:47.186\n因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了\n\n06:48.919 --> 07:17.468\n我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊\n\n07:22.102 --> 07:39.801\n它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道\n\n07:40.362 --> 07:56.505\n那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救\n\n07:57.987 --> 08:10.534\n這一點拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係\n\n08:12.728 --> 08:33.837\n他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解\n\n08:41.701 --> 08:46.143\n醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼\n\n08:58.751 --> 09:19.422\n這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候\n\n09:21.025 --> 09:29.350\n假設我現在要不去請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合\n\n09:32.199 --> 09:48.626\n這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始\n\n09:51.227 --> 09:58.895\n甚至有的是比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛\n\n10:07.063 --> 10:26.855\n那他一定有他的想法但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小就希望主委我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導\n\n10:28.570 --> 10:51.398\n或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.691,"end":12.498,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好"},{"start":16.525,"end":40.583,"text":"辛苦了 主委 我想齁 其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁 我們可以盡量去想啦 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度"},{"start":42.042,"end":69.756,"text":"就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為"},{"start":71.38,"end":82.205,"text":"最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是"},{"start":98.905,"end":121.875,"text":"要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票"},{"start":124.503,"end":142.159,"text":"還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦"},{"start":143.191,"end":167.317,"text":"那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說"},{"start":169.079,"end":183.475,"text":"我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改"},{"start":186.268,"end":211.6,"text":"那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦"},{"start":213.135,"end":241.266,"text":"所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識"},{"start":242.646,"end":264.612,"text":"所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大"},{"start":270.333,"end":286.775,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實"},{"start":288.457,"end":315.907,"text":"很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說"},{"start":316.967,"end":327.38,"text":"資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則"},{"start":328.753,"end":355.641,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對 我想 我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的 那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性啦"},{"start":356.201,"end":378.671,"text":"我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對"},{"start":380.538,"end":407.186,"text":"因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了"},{"start":408.919,"end":437.468,"text":"我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊"},{"start":442.102,"end":459.801,"text":"它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道"},{"start":460.362,"end":476.505,"text":"那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救"},{"start":477.987,"end":490.534,"text":"這一點 拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係"},{"start":492.728,"end":513.837,"text":"他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解"},{"start":521.701,"end":526.143,"text":"醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼"},{"start":538.751,"end":559.422,"text":"這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候"},{"start":561.025,"end":569.35,"text":"假設我現在要不去 請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合"},{"start":572.199,"end":588.626,"text":"這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始"},{"start":591.227,"end":598.895,"text":"甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛"},{"start":607.063,"end":626.855,"text":"那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候 也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就希望主委 我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導"},{"start":628.57,"end":651.398,"text":"或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦 就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好 再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：辛苦了！主委。其實剛剛何欣純委員提到的，包括技師、工程人員和薪資，實在是非常龐雜，要叫你解決所有國家的問題，很困難，但是我們可以儘量去想有什麼比較好的制度，就像我要求了很多年，本來是兩億以上的工程儘量用最有利標，現在達到的比例已經升高了，當時其實我會拜託工程採最有利標的方向之外，就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列，為什麼呢？因為最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質，最有利標的優點當然就是會比較好，但是比較容易作弊，所以這很傷腦筋。現在我們的公共工程從10萬調到15萬元，這個部分一般幾千萬的工程要用最低標，還是用最有利標比較好？"],["陳主任委員金德：委員講的15萬以下的是小額採購，小額採購如果太低的話，是製造公務人員的困擾。"],["許委員智傑：對，沒錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：比如說買一張機票要比價的話，那就很麻煩，真的有人因此而觸法，買機票還要三家比價嗎？小額採購我們是希望提升到……"],["許委員智傑：主委，這個更改我還蠻認同的啦。"],["陳主任委員金德：提高到15萬啦，15萬事實上也不多啦，但是總是不要讓公務人員不小心就觸法，而且增加很多麻煩。我也認同剛才委員的建議，就是在開標的時候如果是用評選的，最有利標，那我們希望……"],["許委員智傑：怎麼去分？"],["陳主任委員金德：主計、政風應到場，我們會按照委員的意見修改相關的作業辦法。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在就是我們的最有利標，都有希望他們應到場。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會改成「應」。"],["許委員智傑：就是現在是「得」，對不對？我們會改成「應」到場，什麼時候可以改？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委來說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員，我們這個辦法已經改成「應」通知政風、主計派人，是已經修改，所以目前看起來派員的比例在持續增加當中。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個對政風、主計比較不好意思，會增加很多的工作，但是這個會讓公務員做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦，所以我覺得這可以繼續推動。今天其實公務員不敢擔當，最怕就是剛剛主委講到的，如果我比價沒有做好，就變圖利、變貪污，製造困擾，公務員如果這樣子，檢察官又不特別明察，就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於任事，所以我們也會要求法務部那邊，就像剛剛有委員講到懲戒之前要先有一個內部的審核，不要隨便就送懲戒，因為你要保護技師，有時候他考上很不簡單，跟素月講的一樣，你一下就把他送懲戒，這對他們傷害很大，所以我的意思就是，你們要送檢察官起訴之前儘量要先明察。我們其實要求法務部好幾年有關檢察官的起訴定罪比，但這部分都還是沒改善。","就公務員的部分來講，其實很多公務員希望有擔當，但是很多公務員很無奈的就是，他如果不注意就被起訴，吃不完兜著走，所以如果有政風、主計的參與，事實上對他們來講，他敢有擔當嘛，同時也有政風、主計在現場，他也不怕被亂想。有的想要亂來的，看到政風、主計在現場，他們就比較不敢亂來了，所以這部分，我希望能夠繼續推動。另外還有比如資格標加最低標、最有利標、純粹的最低標，這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟委員說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，就最有利標到底應該評選什麼項目，我們法規上面有做指引。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思是這方面你們再注意一下。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：因為你們要訂的時候，買新衣服可能有多種款式，買一樣的衣服，買好幾套，還是要修補，那種有可能等於是你用最低標跟用最有利標之間，可能也會有這種可能性。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：我意思就是工程會多想一些這種概略性的問題，在減少弊病跟保持品質的部分去找到一個平衡點，這個部分再拜託工程會思考一下。","最後，我再簡單拜託一下，BOT跟ROT的部分，促參法就現在工程會的角度來說，是財政部負責，對嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為這個業務已經移到財政部了。"],["許委員智傑：對嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["許委員智傑：鳳山車站就是落入這個問題，B（公共工程建設）是工程會的，對吧？B之後要OT的時候，發現不夠用，或是不好用，所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想，就像鳳山車站流標兩次，現在要標第三次了，我一直擔心這個標不出去。有一個問題就是，他們如果要符合本來的功能規範，現在可能要再花7、8億，從裡面再改建。所以B跟OT如果沒有一起思考，現在公共工程在工程會，促參法在財政部，但B是在工程會，OT才去財政部，結果OT的時候有問題要怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：它應該是整個計畫是同一個案。"],["許委員智傑：是的。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個計畫會經過行政院審查、核定，這是同時核定的，屬於BOT案。"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：至於它的建造部分，它有基本設計，基本設計才是工程會審查的。"],["許委員智傑：我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果機關招標有困難，我們也樂意來共同協調，或者提供一些意見來加速它以後……"],["許委員智傑：所以這就有兩個方向，一個方向就是鳳山車站要怎麼補救，這是一個，拜託工程會再協助我們一下。第二就是……"],["陳主任委員金德：已經完工了吧？"],["許委員智傑：對啊！完工了，所以後面它可能要變成ROT，ROT跟工程會有沒有關係？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我跟委員報告，它應該是一開始建的時候就沒有想要BOT，只想要建，所以它會走公共工程採購。"],["許委員智傑：是啊！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：等到建完以後，它就有兩種選擇，一個是有關經營管理的部分，它可以採用政府採購，也可以走促參，所以它後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能。"],["許委員智傑：其實我是凸顯這個問題，我們除了要解決這個問題之外，也讓主委了解，以後公共工程有可能BOT的，其實你一開始就要一起想了。現在公共建設在工程會，促參法又在財政部，要統合的時候，我建議每一個單位對未來有可能採OT的部分，都要在B的時候就一起想了。所以工程會這個部分是不是再思考一下、建議一下怎麼去把這個關係結合在一起？也就是說，全國很多的重大公共建設在要建的時候，以後有可能要OT，假設現在還沒蓋，主委你覺得要怎麼處理比較好？就是在促參跟公共工程的部分要怎麼樣去整合？"],["陳主任委員金德：這還是回到它的原案，原案在做可行性評估或是綜規的時候，它應該都要想到了，最好是原案就準備做BOT……"],["許委員智傑：原案就有打算以後要OT了。"],["陳主任委員金德：以後做什麼規劃，應該一開始就要考量，甚至潛在廠商就要進來討論了。"],["許委員智傑：對，潛在廠商現在……"],["陳主任委員金德：我舉例，像高鐵的經營……"],["許委員智傑：我是都鼓勵他們這麼做，但到最後都怕圖利。"],["陳主任委員金德：鐵道局在做的時候，一開始跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了，營運有它的想法，鐵道局在興建高鐵的時候也有它的想法，所以它一開始就要進來了，比較大的公共工程案是這樣。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在無論大案或小案，就是希望主委思考一下，以後遇到有可能要再做OT的那種BOT案，你們應該用什麼角度去宣導，或是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂，我們再來研究，以後這個地方如果有可能B要再OT的，就不要再分工程會跟財政部，看要怎麼整合，對臺灣以後所有的建設來做一個整體思考，不是只有我們鳳山車站而已，好不好？再拜託主委幫我研究一下，我們再討論，謝謝。"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席（許委員智傑）：現在開始開會。","請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}