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\"他\", \"start\": 479.447, \"end\": 479.607, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 479.607, \"end\": 480.048, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 480.048, \"end\": 480.228, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 480.228, \"end\": 480.348, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 480.348, \"end\": 480.368, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}]}, {\"start\": 481.109, \"end\": 500.138, \"text\": \"那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 481.109, \"end\": 481.569, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 481.569, \"end\": 481.949, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 481.949, \"end\": 482.75, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 482.75, \"end\": 483.09, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": 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0.993}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 492.274, \"end\": 492.995, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 492.995, \"end\": 493.095, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 493.095, \"end\": 493.175, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 493.175, \"end\": 493.595, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 493.595, \"end\": 494.315, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 494.315, \"end\": 494.455, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 494.455, \"end\": 494.655, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 494.655, \"end\": 495.075, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 495.075, \"end\": 495.256, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 495.256, \"end\": 495.416, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 495.416, \"end\": 496.796, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 496.796, \"end\": 497.597, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 497.597, \"end\": 497.917, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 497.917, \"end\": 499.257, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 499.257, \"end\": 499.778, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 499.778, \"end\": 499.958, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 499.958, \"end\": 500.118, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 500.118, \"end\": 500.138, \"score\": 0.369}]}, {\"start\": 500.598, \"end\": 518.016, \"text\": \"那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 500.598, \"end\": 500.718, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 500.718, \"end\": 500.818, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 500.818, \"end\": 501.479, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 501.479, \"end\": 501.619, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 501.619, \"end\": 502.02, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 502.02, \"end\": 502.32, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 502.32, \"end\": 502.46, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 502.46, \"end\": 503.261, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 503.261, \"end\": 504.022, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 504.022, \"end\": 504.402, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"龍\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 504.402, \"end\": 504.562, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 504.562, \"end\": 504.722, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 504.722, \"end\": 504.903, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 504.903, \"end\": 505.043, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 505.043, \"end\": 505.343, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 505.343, \"end\": 505.723, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"緒\"}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 505.723, \"end\": 505.944, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 505.944, \"end\": 506.424, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 506.424, \"end\": 506.624, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 506.624, \"end\": 507.485, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 507.485, \"end\": 507.645, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 507.645, \"end\": 508.747, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 508.747, \"end\": 509.968, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 509.968, \"end\": 510.048, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 510.048, \"end\": 510.228, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 510.228, \"end\": 510.468, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"僚\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 510.468, \"end\": 510.949, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 510.949, \"end\": 511.069, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 511.069, \"end\": 511.229, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 511.229, \"end\": 511.409, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 511.409, \"end\": 511.61, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 511.61, \"end\": 511.75, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 511.75, \"end\": 512.711, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 512.711, \"end\": 513.171, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 513.171, \"end\": 513.351, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 513.351, \"end\": 513.532, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 513.532, \"end\": 513.952, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 513.952, \"end\": 514.092, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 514.092, \"end\": 514.292, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 514.292, \"end\": 514.493, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 514.493, \"end\": 515.594, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 515.594, \"end\": 515.734, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 515.734, \"end\": 515.934, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 515.934, \"end\": 516.154, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 516.154, \"end\": 516.875, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 516.875, \"end\": 517.035, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 517.035, \"end\": 517.376, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 517.376, \"end\": 517.776, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 517.776, \"end\": 517.996, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 517.996, \"end\": 518.016, \"score\": 0.005}]}, {\"start\": 518.777, \"end\": 541.313, \"text\": \"那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 518.777, \"end\": 518.917, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 518.917, \"end\": 519.097, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 519.097, \"end\": 519.558, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 519.558, \"end\": 520.038, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 520.038, \"end\": 520.438, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"顯\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 520.438, \"end\": 520.618, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 520.618, \"end\": 520.758, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 520.758, \"end\": 520.959, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 520.959, \"end\": 521.739, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 521.739, \"end\": 522.179, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 537.53, \"end\": 537.871, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 537.871, \"end\": 538.031, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 538.031, \"end\": 538.191, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 538.191, \"end\": 538.331, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 538.331, \"end\": 538.491, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 538.491, \"end\": 538.831, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 538.831, \"end\": 538.951, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 538.951, \"end\": 539.071, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 539.071, \"end\": 539.192, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 539.192, \"end\": 539.392, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 539.392, \"end\": 539.512, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 539.512, \"end\": 539.652, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 539.652, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"酌\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 564.124, \"end\": 564.184, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 564.184, \"end\": 564.364, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 564.364, \"end\": 564.444, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 564.444, \"end\": 564.464, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,386 --> 00:00:23,754\n主席我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委\n\n2\n00:00:25,074 --> 00:00:40,431\n那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說\n\n3\n00:00:41,752 --> 00:01:09,338\n職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以\n\n4\n00:01:09,838 --> 00:01:33,921\n成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案\n\n5\n00:01:34,417 --> 00:01:53,033\n那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來\n\n6\n00:01:53,666 --> 00:02:19,371\n那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立\n\n7\n00:02:22,196 --> 00:02:33,782\n不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好謝謝\n\n8\n00:02:35,031 --> 00:02:52,503\n那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴您知道嗎\n\n9\n00:02:57,628 --> 00:03:25,664\n我沒有很清楚那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異\n\n10\n00:03:27,105 --> 00:03:52,121\n定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告\n\n11\n00:03:56,641 --> 00:04:25,027\n情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某\n\n12\n00:04:26,185 --> 00:04:43,142\n這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的\n\n13\n00:04:43,682 --> 00:05:05,239\n這一次就即使一次但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢他可能開始這個失眠然後害怕去上班然後等等的要造成很多很多的身心症甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節這個重大者以上跟委員報告\n\n14\n00:05:06,601 --> 00:05:26,210\n我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個\n\n15\n00:05:27,170 --> 00:05:56,415\n例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧\n\n16\n00:05:57,185 --> 00:06:20,375\n就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施\n\n17\n00:06:21,115 --> 00:06:34,665\n否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字\n\n18\n00:06:44,261 --> 00:07:10,942\n跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低\n\n19\n00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:41,092\n每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定\n\n20\n00:07:42,148 --> 00:08:00,368\n我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,\n\n21\n00:08:01,109 --> 00:08:20,138\n那這個過程當中公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛\n\n22\n00:08:20,598 --> 00:08:38,016\n那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌\n\n23\n00:08:38,777 --> 00:09:01,313\n那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說\n\n24\n00:09:03,004 --> 00:09:24,464\n我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2386\t23754\t主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委\n25074\t40431\t那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說\n41752\t69338\t職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以\n69838\t93921\t成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案\n94417\t113033\t那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來\n113666\t139371\t那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立\n142196\t153782\t不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝\n155031\t172503\t那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴 您知道嗎\n177628\t205664\t我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異\n207105\t232121\t定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告\n236641\t265027\t情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某\n266185\t283142\t這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的\n283682\t305239\t這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠 然後害怕去上班然後等等的 要造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告\n306601\t326210\t我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個\n327170\t356415\t例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧\n357185\t380375\t就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施\n381115\t394665\t否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字\n404261\t430942\t跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低\n433220\t461092\t每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定\n462148\t480368\t我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,\n481109\t500138\t那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛\n500598\t518016\t那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌\n518777\t541313\t那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說\n543004\t564464\t我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝\n","txt":"主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委\n那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說\n職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以\n成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案\n那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來\n那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立\n不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝\n那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴 您知道嗎\n我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異\n定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告\n情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某\n這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的\n這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠 然後害怕去上班然後等等的 要造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告\n我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個\n例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧\n就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施\n否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字\n跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低\n每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定\n我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,\n那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛\n那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌\n那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說\n我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.386 --> 00:23.754\n主席我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委\n\n00:25.074 --> 00:40.431\n那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說\n\n00:41.752 --> 01:09.338\n職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以\n\n01:09.838 --> 01:33.921\n成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案\n\n01:34.417 --> 01:53.033\n那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來\n\n01:53.666 --> 02:19.371\n那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立\n\n02:22.196 --> 02:33.782\n不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好謝謝\n\n02:35.031 --> 02:52.503\n那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴您知道嗎\n\n02:57.628 --> 03:25.664\n我沒有很清楚那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異\n\n03:27.105 --> 03:52.121\n定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告\n\n03:56.641 --> 04:25.027\n情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某\n\n04:26.185 --> 04:43.142\n這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的\n\n04:43.682 --> 05:05.239\n這一次就即使一次但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢他可能開始這個失眠然後害怕去上班然後等等的要造成很多很多的身心症甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節這個重大者以上跟委員報告\n\n05:06.601 --> 05:26.210\n我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個\n\n05:27.170 --> 05:56.415\n例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧\n\n05:57.185 --> 06:20.375\n就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施\n\n06:21.115 --> 06:34.665\n否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字\n\n06:44.261 --> 07:10.942\n跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低\n\n07:13.220 --> 07:41.092\n每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定\n\n07:42.148 --> 08:00.368\n我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,\n\n08:01.109 --> 08:20.138\n那這個過程當中公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛\n\n08:20.598 --> 08:38.016\n那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌\n\n08:38.777 --> 09:01.313\n那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說\n\n09:03.004 --> 09:24.464\n我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.386,"end":23.754,"text":"主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委"},{"start":25.074,"end":40.431,"text":"那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說"},{"start":41.752,"end":69.338,"text":"職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以"},{"start":69.838,"end":93.921,"text":"成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案"},{"start":94.417,"end":113.033,"text":"那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來"},{"start":113.666,"end":139.371,"text":"那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立"},{"start":142.196,"end":153.782,"text":"不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝"},{"start":155.031,"end":172.503,"text":"那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴 您知道嗎"},{"start":177.628,"end":205.664,"text":"我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異"},{"start":207.105,"end":232.121,"text":"定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告"},{"start":236.641,"end":265.027,"text":"情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某"},{"start":266.185,"end":283.142,"text":"這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的"},{"start":283.682,"end":305.239,"text":"這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠 然後害怕去上班然後等等的 要造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告"},{"start":306.601,"end":326.21,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個"},{"start":327.17,"end":356.415,"text":"例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧"},{"start":357.185,"end":380.375,"text":"就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施"},{"start":381.115,"end":394.665,"text":"否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字"},{"start":404.261,"end":430.942,"text":"跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低"},{"start":433.22,"end":461.092,"text":"每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定"},{"start":462.148,"end":480.368,"text":"我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,"},{"start":481.109,"end":500.138,"text":"那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛"},{"start":500.598,"end":518.016,"text":"那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌"},{"start":518.777,"end":541.313,"text":"那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說"},{"start":543.004,"end":564.464,"text":"我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時51分）主席、在場的委員跟官員。首先，還是先跟劉秘書長致意一下，身體還是最重要的，所以我待會的質詢主要會問保訓會主委，但是如果秘書長在您許可的範圍內要補充的話，也歡迎，我大概主要是問保訓會主委。","本次公務人員保障法修法，預計要比照職業安全衛生法，正式納入職場霸凌的定義。因此，我首先想請教主委，現在定義為「職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假藉權勢或機會，逾越職務上正當合理範圍，持續以歧視、侮辱言行或其他方式，造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境，致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害。但情節重大者，不以持續發生為必要。」，你覺得這個定義是否足夠明確，可以讓公家機關職場霸凌申訴成案，而且消除舉證上的困難呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，有關職場霸凌的定義其實非常多，且不太一樣，我們整理了、經過很多法制徵詢、也參採了勞動部的草案。以目前來講，如果要說能不能夠具體為機關參採，我想在這些部分中，逾越職務上正當合理範圍這點在公務現場可以判斷出來，對於以歧視、侮辱言行或其他方式造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性等情況，其實有通念，顯示也是可以的。當然，我想委員要提醒我們的是在不同案例當中會不會造成機關判讀上的困難，那我跟委員報告，我們目前已經在著手建立機制，也就是根據過去職場霸凌的成立跟不成立案件加以分析，而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引。以上兩點跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。但我還是要說，以目前定義來看，我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在啦！","那我想請教主委，你可知道在國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約中，對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼？您知道嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：我沒有很清楚，請委員教導。"],["羅委員智強：好，沒問題。公約載明，職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為、作法或威脅，無論是一次或持續發生，但是草案第一段主要是把職場霸凌要件定義為持續，這個部分跟國際標準有差異。當然，第一段也講了一句：「情節重大者，不以持續發生為必要」，這是例外條款嘛！可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大？標準是什麼？我想請教一下主委，可以概略說明一下什麼叫情節重大嗎？怎麼在不同情節當中做出判斷？我在講的是不明確的問題啦！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，情節重大當然是透過申訴當事人舉證造成他什麼樣的身心傷害，基本上，他在提申訴的時候一定會有醫生證明等相關資料，這是第一。第二就是什麼叫做情節重大？舉個例子來講，如果今天某甲是主管，對某乙做出一次性或一連串辱罵、甚至用摔公文等方式導致一次性的創傷，也就是僅此一次、但已經是超乎常人可以接受，也就是我們所講通念可以接受的，導致這個人開始失眠、害怕上班等等，造成很多身心症，甚至開始懷疑自己的能力，這當然就屬於這種情節重大者。以上跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主委講了很多啦！但我覺得實際判準上就有很多狀況滿主觀的，也不容易做客觀的判準，這就是為什麼公約裡面直接原則性地強調不論是一次還是持續發生，而不以所謂的情節重大作為例外事例的規範，其實我覺得這一點在立法例上還是可以參考。","另外想請教一下，在過去5年：2020年到2024年，根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計，總共有83件職場霸凌通報嘛！對不對？我得到的數據是這樣。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，83件是指我們已經做成的決定。"],["羅委員智強：霸凌通報啦！沒錯吧！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：那是再申訴部分，也就是機關端認定不符以後，當事人到保訓會進行再申訴的案件。"],["羅委員智強：我大概列舉一下，其實樣態包括威脅考績乙等、遭機關懲處、同仁肢體攻擊、語言霸凌、不當工作指派或威脅調動、不准請假、不當管理措施、否准加班申請、積壓公文、刁難請假、退公文等等，其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多，這是我們將所看到的資料大概整理出來的態樣。請問在這83件裡面，最後成案幾件？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，更詳細的資料請容我們會後提供給您。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天其實有跟你們調了啦！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前成案的─這是指過去成案的不到10件，應該在6件左右。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯，我這邊的數字是8件啦！比例是連一成都不到。秘書長，為什麼成案比例這麼低啊？"],["劉秘書長建忻：每個個案都應該照實際狀況處理啦！會到保訓會申訴者，有時候是霸凌申訴人，也可能是被認定霸凌成立的另一方當事人，他們不服這個決定都可以來救濟。而在救濟部分，保訓會這邊當然是先看程序面有沒有不完備之處，如果機關已經做了適當處理的話，通常也不一定要推翻那個決定。"],["羅委員智強：我跟秘書長和主委說，我自己也當過公務員，基層公務員做過2年，所以滿了解公務員所面臨來自職場、尤其來自上司的壓力是什麼，因為公務員這輩子的升遷主導權其實就在上級長官嘛！所以在這個過程當中、很多公務員文化裡面，他們面對霸凌的抵抗力相對是比較弱的，我們今天會有這番討論也是來自這個部分。","我就舉一個小案例。去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌，根據調查小組第一時間的回報，認為謝宜容的管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當，導致其他同仁有被職場霸凌的感受，認定管理不當不是主因，後來重新調查才認定為霸凌，顯見第二次調查之所以成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理，而是外部公眾的監督，那時候社會輿論壓力非常大。你也可以想像，不是每一個霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會公共關注度，因此今天建立制度才會變得非常重要。","最後我還是要講，我們其實非常不樂見公務同仁在為國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到惡劣霸凌的環境，法制化怎麼讓公務員可以安心的工作，這是我們大家共同要努力的部分。所以今天尤其是關於「持續」跟「重大」的認定，我還是希望主管機關能夠再持續審酌一下，以上。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。我們就依先前的宣告，現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續開會詢答。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們先請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不到。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}