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199.945, \"end\": 199.965, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 201.286, \"end\": 228.807, \"text\": \"所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 201.286, \"end\": 201.666, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 201.666, \"end\": 201.826, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 201.826, \"end\": 202.027, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 202.027, \"end\": 202.307, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 202.307, \"end\": 202.387, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 202.387, \"end\": 202.667, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 202.667, \"end\": 202.867, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 202.867, \"end\": 203.648, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 203.648, \"end\": 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\"end\": 224.584, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 224.584, \"end\": 225.204, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 225.204, \"end\": 225.364, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 225.364, \"end\": 225.845, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 225.845, \"end\": 226.005, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 226.005, \"end\": 226.085, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 226.085, \"end\": 226.285, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 226.285, \"end\": 226.465, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 226.465, \"end\": 226.585, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 226.585, \"end\": 226.785, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 226.785, \"end\": 227.826, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 227.826, \"end\": 228.267, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 228.267, \"end\": 228.447, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 228.447, \"end\": 228.567, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 228.567, \"end\": 228.667, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 228.667, \"end\": 228.767, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 228.767, \"end\": 228.787, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 228.787, \"end\": 228.807, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 230.208, \"end\": 249.093, \"text\": \"好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 230.208, \"end\": 230.308, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 230.308, \"end\": 230.428, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 230.428, \"end\": 230.508, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 230.508, \"end\": 230.768, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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{\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 497.106, \"end\": 497.126, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 504.168, \"end\": 519.241, \"text\": \"那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 504.168, \"end\": 504.368, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 504.368, \"end\": 504.488, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 504.488, \"end\": 504.609, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 504.609, \"end\": 504.689, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 504.689, \"end\": 504.869, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"洞\", \"start\": 504.869, \"end\": 505.089, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 505.089, \"end\": 505.169, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 505.169, \"end\": 505.489, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 505.489, \"end\": 505.649, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, 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{\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 618.047, \"end\": 618.268, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 618.268, \"end\": 619.608, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 619.608, \"end\": 619.768, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 619.768, \"end\": 619.908, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 619.908, \"end\": 620.248, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 620.248, \"end\": 620.629, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 620.629, \"end\": 620.749, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 620.749, \"end\": 621.029, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 621.029, \"end\": 621.149, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 621.149, \"end\": 621.169, \"score\": 0.146}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,308 --> 00:00:03,878\n好謝謝主席主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委\n\n2\n00:00:11,448 --> 00:00:38,000\n好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎\n\n3\n00:00:41,101 --> 00:01:06,242\n他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們\n\n4\n00:01:12,011 --> 00:01:38,357\n請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦\n\n5\n00:01:38,897 --> 00:02:05,816\n那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能\n\n6\n00:02:06,736 --> 00:02:21,816\n覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方\n\n7\n00:02:22,837 --> 00:02:39,937\n所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理\n\n8\n00:02:41,298 --> 00:02:59,174\n好謝謝我想既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承能夠留才我想這對公務機關對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照\n\n9\n00:03:01,115 --> 00:03:19,965\n可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照\n\n10\n00:03:21,286 --> 00:03:48,807\n所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致\n\n11\n00:03:50,208 --> 00:04:09,093\n好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好\n\n12\n00:04:16,822 --> 00:04:32,927\n跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情\n\n13\n00:04:33,467 --> 00:05:01,806\n那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分\n\n14\n00:05:02,566 --> 00:05:16,143\n每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:19,162 --> 00:05:34,466\n這應該是說集合的啟動實際上我們一個是移送集合另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%\n\n16\n00:05:39,528 --> 00:05:53,837\n6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個\n\n17\n00:05:55,558 --> 00:06:17,896\n既然有這樣的數據喔因為剛才也提到了包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚因為其實就我所說因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊他才能去辦採購嘛對吧那這考試內容有問題呢還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因你如果說\n\n18\n00:06:18,917 --> 00:06:40,737\n前兩年假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊\n\n19\n00:06:43,018 --> 00:07:02,421\n那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得\n\n20\n00:07:03,767 --> 00:07:22,862\n會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定\n\n21\n00:07:23,602 --> 00:07:43,876\n那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實\n\n22\n00:07:45,297 --> 00:08:05,403\n過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權\n\n23\n00:08:06,383 --> 00:08:17,126\n但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法\n\n24\n00:08:24,168 --> 00:08:39,241\n那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來\n\n25\n00:08:43,580 --> 00:09:00,253\n這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討\n\n26\n00:09:05,222 --> 00:09:29,389\n那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險\n\n27\n00:09:31,730 --> 00:09:53,517\n我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據\n\n28\n00:09:55,638 --> 00:10:21,169\n所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1308\t3878\t好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委\n11448\t38000\t好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎\n41101\t66242\t他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們\n72011\t98357\t請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦\n98897\t125816\t那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能\n126736\t141816\t覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方\n142837\t159937\t所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理\n161298\t179174\t好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照\n181115\t199965\t可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照\n201286\t228807\t所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致\n230208\t249093\t好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好\n256822\t272927\t跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情\n273467\t301806\t那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分\n302566\t316143\t每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件 120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼\n319162\t334466\t這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%\n339528\t353837\t6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個\n355558\t377896\t既然有這樣的數據喔 因為剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說\n378917\t400737\t前兩年 假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年 當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想 採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高 大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊\n403018\t422421\t那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得\n423767\t442862\t會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定\n443602\t463876\t那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實\n465297\t485403\t過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權\n486383\t497126\t但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法\n504168\t519241\t那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來\n523580\t540253\t這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討\n545222\t569389\t那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險\n571730\t593517\t我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據\n595638\t621169\t所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委\n好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎\n他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們\n請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦\n那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能\n覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方\n所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理\n好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照\n可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照\n所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致\n好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好\n跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情\n那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分\n每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件 120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼\n這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%\n6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個\n既然有這樣的數據喔 因為剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說\n前兩年 假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年 當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想 採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高 大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊\n那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得\n會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定\n那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實\n過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權\n但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法\n那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來\n這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討\n那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險\n我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據\n所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.308 --> 00:03.878\n好謝謝主席主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委\n\n00:11.448 --> 00:38.000\n好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎\n\n00:41.101 --> 01:06.242\n他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們\n\n01:12.011 --> 01:38.357\n請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦\n\n01:38.897 --> 02:05.816\n那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能\n\n02:06.736 --> 02:21.816\n覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方\n\n02:22.837 --> 02:39.937\n所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理\n\n02:41.298 --> 02:59.174\n好謝謝我想既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承能夠留才我想這對公務機關對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照\n\n03:01.115 --> 03:19.965\n可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照\n\n03:21.286 --> 03:48.807\n所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致\n\n03:50.208 --> 04:09.093\n好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好\n\n04:16.822 --> 04:32.927\n跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情\n\n04:33.467 --> 05:01.806\n那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分\n\n05:02.566 --> 05:16.143\n每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼\n\n05:19.162 --> 05:34.466\n這應該是說集合的啟動實際上我們一個是移送集合另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%\n\n05:39.528 --> 05:53.837\n6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個\n\n05:55.558 --> 06:17.896\n既然有這樣的數據喔因為剛才也提到了包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚因為其實就我所說因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊他才能去辦採購嘛對吧那這考試內容有問題呢還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因你如果說\n\n06:18.917 --> 06:40.737\n前兩年假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊\n\n06:43.018 --> 07:02.421\n那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得\n\n07:03.767 --> 07:22.862\n會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定\n\n07:23.602 --> 07:43.876\n那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實\n\n07:45.297 --> 08:05.403\n過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權\n\n08:06.383 --> 08:17.126\n但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法\n\n08:24.168 --> 08:39.241\n那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來\n\n08:43.580 --> 09:00.253\n這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討\n\n09:05.222 --> 09:29.389\n那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險\n\n09:31.730 --> 09:53.517\n我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據\n\n09:55.638 --> 10:21.169\n所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.308,"end":3.878,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委"},{"start":11.448,"end":38,"text":"好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎"},{"start":41.101,"end":66.242,"text":"他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們"},{"start":72.011,"end":98.357,"text":"請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦"},{"start":98.897,"end":125.816,"text":"那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能"},{"start":126.736,"end":141.816,"text":"覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方"},{"start":142.837,"end":159.937,"text":"所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理"},{"start":161.298,"end":179.174,"text":"好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照"},{"start":181.115,"end":199.965,"text":"可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照"},{"start":201.286,"end":228.807,"text":"所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致"},{"start":230.208,"end":249.093,"text":"好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好"},{"start":256.822,"end":272.927,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情"},{"start":273.467,"end":301.806,"text":"那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分"},{"start":302.566,"end":316.143,"text":"每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件 120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼"},{"start":319.162,"end":334.466,"text":"這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%"},{"start":339.528,"end":353.837,"text":"6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個"},{"start":355.558,"end":377.896,"text":"既然有這樣的數據喔 因為剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說"},{"start":378.917,"end":400.737,"text":"前兩年 假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年 當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想 採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高 大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊"},{"start":403.018,"end":422.421,"text":"那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得"},{"start":423.767,"end":442.862,"text":"會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定"},{"start":443.602,"end":463.876,"text":"那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實"},{"start":465.297,"end":485.403,"text":"過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權"},{"start":486.383,"end":497.126,"text":"但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法"},{"start":504.168,"end":519.241,"text":"那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":523.58,"end":540.253,"text":"這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討"},{"start":545.222,"end":569.389,"text":"那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險"},{"start":571.73,"end":593.517,"text":"我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據"},{"start":595.638,"end":621.169,"text":"所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。我想今天大家都想要為土木技師來稍微發點聲，我提一個案例，當然，今年行政院核定從6月開始，像公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金，希望能夠達到公務機關留才的目的。當然，前面有委員提到，包含我們也收到一些陳情，就是在土木技師這個行業類別裡面，他去業界開業的收入、待遇，相對來講會比留在公部門來得高，但是我們也期待工程會，或是各單位的土木技師的工作經驗能夠傳承。所以想問一下主委，對於土木技師這個類別的公務人員，如果也編列不開業獎金，這個方向你會支持嗎？還是你有什麼樣的考慮？"],["陳主任委員金德：請副主委來說明，因為這個已經有相關的獎金，已經在執行了。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。有關行政機關的土木工程人員人才流失，確實是一個全面性的問題，所以大概在去年行政院就已經有做過檢討，已經有建立了一些，譬如久任獎金的制度。當然，目前可能還要看看實行的成效，但是同時也要搭配整體制度，譬如要不要去檢討考試的制度、要不要特別針對他們的職等、權責調整。我們也有去統計這些離開公務體系的人，他們最care的點，包括他們覺得風險很高，因為他們可能覺得在專業上執行業務的時候，很有可能會被認為是違法。"],["黃委員健豪：訴訟風險很高，確實是這樣。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：所以我們這部分有跟法務部討論，也希望建立聯繫，讓他們了解這些專業人員在執行職務的時候是有他們特別的地方，所以是雙向做溝通。至於要不要再有所謂的不開業獎金，聽起來目前是有比較大的意見，可能還相當保留，但是我想看目前這幾個措施執行的狀況，再看看後面要不要再繼續處理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝，我想既然工程會有在準備，我們還是希望把這樣的考量列進去啦，就是怎樣讓經驗能夠傳承、能夠留才，我想這對公務機關，對整個國家都是好事，不然所有人都跑去業界了，對政府也是很麻煩，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為到業界他還有技師執照可以被聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛，他在公務機關就不能兼任職務，所以證照對他來講是沒有用的，但是像土木、營建、大地工程、結構技師，有時候一個人會考取3、4張執照，所以執行起來也要稍微評估看看。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝。接下來，我們討論這個數據，我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候，以最有利標異常案件來看，這幾年來每年最有利標異常案件都數十到上百件，但真的移送稽核的案件外傳就是個位數，當然每年檢討的報告大部分都是所謂的「誤繕決標公告」或「誤解法規」所致。我想問，因為採購是有證照的，要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這個業務都很熟悉，那第一個，為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性、不斷在發生的最有利標異常案件？以及移送稽核案件為什麼這麼少？這個問題到底出在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請主秘來說。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，有關於誤繕決標公告或不了解法規部分，因為採購法是比較細緻的規定，所以有一些細節上要注意的事情。這部分我們是從源頭開始去處理，第一個，在辦採購的時候，我們是要求一定金額以上的採購案要有採購專業人員來參與；第二個，我們會持續去強化採購人員和在職人員的訓練，就委員指導的異常案件比率，我們會再去加強，讓異常案件能夠降低。"],["黃委員健豪：關於移送的部分，因為每年都幾十件，當然最嚴重是110年的120件嘛，我們就不管具體原因是什麼，我想光是移送稽核案件的比例也偏低，為什麼移送稽核的比例這麼低，原因是什麼？"],["羅主任秘書天健：應該說稽核的啟動，實際上我們一個是移送稽核，另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動稽核的目標，所以我們每年去稽核的比例我記得有6%，我們是有設定目標值，縱使沒有其他狀況，各機關的稽核小組或工程會的稽核小組都會去稽核，所以可能實際的稽核件數會比這個還多。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主秘，既然有這樣的數據，剛才也提到了，包含你說要去要求第一線採購人員把法規弄清楚，其實就我所知，政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照才能去辦採購嘛，對吧？是考試內容有問題呢？還是他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況？因為我只是想知道到底是什麼原因，你如果說前2年或是說一開始時，假設採購法剛上路，所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題，但是我想採購法上路那麼多年，每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購，各地方政府、各機關都有在辦。前面幾年數據高，大家可以理解，但後面幾年數據還是很高，這到底要怎麼解決？"],["羅主任秘書天健：我們會再去確實的了解發生問題的原因，針對問題去處理。"],["黃委員健豪：這個拜託一下，你們檢討完之後，是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告，讓大家知道到底原因出在哪，不然每年的比例這麼高，我想對政府機關的形象或委員在看會覺得很奇怪啦，主委，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們也正在修訂政府採購法，原政府採購法或者相關的子法有的部分或是其他相關的規定，的確文字比較不清楚，這也是列入我們再重新檢討的地方，我們儘量讓採購法的法律或相關子法、相關規定都很清楚，讓主辦採購機關比較不會誤解法規，這也是我們要做的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：好。主委，講到採購法，我再多問一下，其實過去常常很多新聞事件，不管像之前講的防彈衣等等，採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標，當然依法來講，如果是廠商有問題就不能來投標，但現在問題是廠商跟負責人好像是分開，有兩個漏洞，一個是公司停權，但負責人沒有被停權，所以他另外去處理就可以來投；另外一個可能就是自己被停權，就跟得標廠商去簽約分包，類似這樣的樣態，業界也確實都這樣處理啦！我不知道假設你們要檢討採購法，這個部分的漏洞也要補起來嘛！因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情，但後來多數委員考量當時的情況、環境背景下就沒有做了，但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生，我不知道工程委員的立場怎麼樣？你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，有關整個履約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商，不只是得標廠商，可能包括它的供應商、它的分包商，原則上我們是會就整個全面性有參與政府採購系統接觸的人員會一併來檢討啦！譬如說他被停權了，可能另外設了其他新的公司，或者他已經有在經營其他的公司，目前採購法沒有就這部分處理，我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果及於……因為他在經營嘛，所以他潛在就會產生很大將來可能違約的風險，我們有往這方面來修正，可能到時候到大院，要請大院來支持這樣的作法。目前我們採用一個過渡性的作法，假設是在最有利標的話，這個停權廠商的負責人，當他的其他廠商來投標，我們會把他列到實績不良裡面，讓機關在評選的時候有參考的依據。"],["黃委員健豪：所以方向上看起來是一致啦，最後還是要追到自然人，不能只用公司當作標的嘛，最後標的是自然人為主，主委是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我想這個漏洞有機會補起來，我們就期待你們趕快把這個漏洞補起來，然後趕快提出相關的版本，我想多數委員應該會支持啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：下個會期會送到大院來審議。"],["黃委員健豪：好，OK，主委謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}