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00:01:40,470\n是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用\n\n5\n00:01:46,567 --> 00:02:02,480\n跟委員報告政務官呢他是職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢它是現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分\n\n6\n00:02:09,065 --> 00:02:17,954\n是執罷申訴的部分它是準用的準用好所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用\n\n7\n00:02:38,322 --> 00:02:49,081\n她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊\n\n8\n00:02:50,222 --> 00:03:13,418\n他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面準用也都準用對因為他們是屬於政務官好那請問一下軍人準不準用\n\n9\n00:03:14,238 --> 00:03:31,696\n跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人\n\n10\n00:03:33,399 --> 00:03:50,838\n是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長\n\n11\n00:03:54,048 --> 00:04:22,543\n也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外\n\n12\n00:04:23,283 --> 00:04:45,260\n那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面\n\n13\n00:04:46,842 --> 00:05:02,335\n有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷\n\n14\n00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:17,608\n跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何\n\n15\n00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:59,911\n跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來\n\n16\n00:06:00,111 --> 00:06:10,827\n所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷姓騷有沒有\n\n17\n00:06:11,892 --> 00:06:22,739\n欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有獨駕有沒有有我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分\n\n18\n00:06:38,328 --> 00:07:05,428\n那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法\n\n19\n00:07:06,369 --> 00:07:11,797\n那像今天在修法裡面比如說同樣的這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法它就有刑法了\n\n20\n00:07:23,593 --> 00:07:49,051\n那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下\n\n21\n00:07:50,513 --> 00:07:55,061\n讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法剛才也講\n\n22\n00:07:57,985 --> 00:08:12,593\n這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了對不對那所以同樣的所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度還有你們目前的態度是什麼\n\n23\n00:08:24,926 --> 00:08:34,673\n公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案\n\n24\n00:08:36,581 --> 00:08:59,677\n安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法\n\n25\n00:09:00,237 --> 00:09:29,200\n的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面\n\n26\n00:09:30,506 --> 00:09:58,357\n安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於\n\n27\n00:09:59,233 --> 00:10:08,338\n這一個我們自己該做的事情先把它完成如果說未來大家覺得\n\n28\n00:10:09,937 --> 00:10:33,917\n這個不只是這三這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說\n\n29\n00:10:34,588 --> 00:10:55,086\n要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能\n\n30\n00:10:56,107 --> 00:11:12,196\n沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題\n\n31\n00:11:13,257 --> 00:11:28,232\n那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件\n\n32\n00:11:34,117 --> 00:11:59,708\n相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式\n\n33\n00:12:01,249 --> 00:12:12,757\n那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法\n\n34\n00:12:29,349 --> 00:12:48,456\n那你可不可以把你們既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見正反意見嘛你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎提供給我們辦公室可以嗎\n\n35\n00:12:52,901 --> 00:13:08,774\n跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並\n\n36\n00:13:10,134 --> 00:13:25,368\n不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態好不好沒關係你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛對不對\n\n37\n00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:28,390\n我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢\n\n38\n00:13:46,056 --> 00:13:59,669\n會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7110\t7130\t蔣麗芸議員\n37911\t59127\t他已經先回去了 我覺得也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務 他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長那因為這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位秘書長有的我們請他來 他不來有的我們請他回去休息 他不願意\n59847\t74255\t真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉秘書長真的我剛好多事情他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完\n75299\t100470\t是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用\n106567\t122480\t跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 它是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條 委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分\n129065\t137954\t是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用\n158322\t169081\t她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊\n170222\t193418\t他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 準用也都準用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人準不準用\n194238\t211696\t跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人\n213399\t230838\t是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長\n234048\t262543\t也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外\n263283\t285260\t那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面\n286842\t302335\t有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷\n303556\t317608\t跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何\n332290\t359911\t跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來\n360111\t370827\t所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有\n371892\t382739\t欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分\n398328\t425428\t那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法\n426369\t431797\t那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了\n443593\t469051\t那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下\n470513\t475061\t讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講\n477985\t492593\t這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼\n504926\t514673\t公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案\n516581\t539677\t安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法\n540237\t569200\t的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面\n570506\t598357\t安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於\n599233\t608338\t這一個我們自己該做的事情 先把它完成如果說未來 大家覺得\n609937\t633917\t這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說\n634588\t655086\t要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能\n656107\t672196\t沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題\n673257\t688232\t那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件\n694117\t719708\t相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式\n721249\t732757\t那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法\n749349\t768456\t那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎\n772901\t788774\t跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並\n790134\t805368\t不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對\n806949\t808390\t我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢\n826056\t839669\t會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n","txt":"蔣麗芸議員\n他已經先回去了 我覺得也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務 他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長那因為這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位秘書長有的我們請他來 他不來有的我們請他回去休息 他不願意\n真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉秘書長真的我剛好多事情他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完\n是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用\n跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 它是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條 委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分\n是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用\n她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊\n他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 準用也都準用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人準不準用\n跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人\n是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長\n也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外\n那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面\n有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷\n跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何\n跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來\n所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有\n欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分\n那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法\n那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了\n那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下\n讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講\n這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼\n公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案\n安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法\n的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面\n安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於\n這一個我們自己該做的事情 先把它完成如果說未來 大家覺得\n這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說\n要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能\n沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題\n那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件\n相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式\n那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法\n那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎\n跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並\n不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對\n我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢\n會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.110 --> 00:07.130\n蔣麗芸議員\n\n00:37.911 --> 00:59.127\n他已經先回去了我覺得也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長那因為這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位秘書長有的我們請他來他不來有的我們請他回去休息他不願意\n\n00:59.847 --> 01:14.255\n真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉秘書長真的我剛好多事情他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完\n\n01:15.299 --> 01:40.470\n是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用\n\n01:46.567 --> 02:02.480\n跟委員報告政務官呢他是職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢它是現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分\n\n02:09.065 --> 02:17.954\n是執罷申訴的部分它是準用的準用好所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用\n\n02:38.322 --> 02:49.081\n她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊\n\n02:50.222 --> 03:13.418\n他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面準用也都準用對因為他們是屬於政務官好那請問一下軍人準不準用\n\n03:14.238 --> 03:31.696\n跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人\n\n03:33.399 --> 03:50.838\n是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長\n\n03:54.048 --> 04:22.543\n也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外\n\n04:23.283 --> 04:45.260\n那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面\n\n04:46.842 --> 05:02.335\n有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷\n\n05:03.556 --> 05:17.608\n跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何\n\n05:32.290 --> 05:59.911\n跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來\n\n06:00.111 --> 06:10.827\n所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷姓騷有沒有\n\n06:11.892 --> 06:22.739\n欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有獨駕有沒有有我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分\n\n06:38.328 --> 07:05.428\n那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法\n\n07:06.369 --> 07:11.797\n那像今天在修法裡面比如說同樣的這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法它就有刑法了\n\n07:23.593 --> 07:49.051\n那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下\n\n07:50.513 --> 07:55.061\n讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法剛才也講\n\n07:57.985 --> 08:12.593\n這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了對不對那所以同樣的所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度還有你們目前的態度是什麼\n\n08:24.926 --> 08:34.673\n公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案\n\n08:36.581 --> 08:59.677\n安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法\n\n09:00.237 --> 09:29.200\n的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面\n\n09:30.506 --> 09:58.357\n安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於\n\n09:59.233 --> 10:08.338\n這一個我們自己該做的事情先把它完成如果說未來大家覺得\n\n10:09.937 --> 10:33.917\n這個不只是這三這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說\n\n10:34.588 --> 10:55.086\n要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能\n\n10:56.107 --> 11:12.196\n沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題\n\n11:13.257 --> 11:28.232\n那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件\n\n11:34.117 --> 11:59.708\n相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式\n\n12:01.249 --> 12:12.757\n那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法\n\n12:29.349 --> 12:48.456\n那你可不可以把你們既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見正反意見嘛你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎提供給我們辦公室可以嗎\n\n12:52.901 --> 13:08.774\n跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並\n\n13:10.134 --> 13:25.368\n不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態好不好沒關係你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛對不對\n\n13:26.949 --> 13:28.390\n我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢\n\n13:46.056 --> 13:59.669\n會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.11,"end":7.13,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":37.911,"end":59.127,"text":"他已經先回去了 我覺得也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務 他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長那因為這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位秘書長有的我們請他來 他不來有的我們請他回去休息 他不願意"},{"start":59.847,"end":74.255,"text":"真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉秘書長真的我剛好多事情他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完"},{"start":75.299,"end":100.47,"text":"是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用"},{"start":106.567,"end":122.48,"text":"跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 它是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條 委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分"},{"start":129.065,"end":137.954,"text":"是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用"},{"start":158.322,"end":169.081,"text":"她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊"},{"start":170.222,"end":193.418,"text":"他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 準用也都準用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人準不準用"},{"start":194.238,"end":211.696,"text":"跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人"},{"start":213.399,"end":230.838,"text":"是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長"},{"start":234.048,"end":262.543,"text":"也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外"},{"start":263.283,"end":285.26,"text":"那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面"},{"start":286.842,"end":302.335,"text":"有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷"},{"start":303.556,"end":317.608,"text":"跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何"},{"start":332.29,"end":359.911,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來"},{"start":360.111,"end":370.827,"text":"所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有"},{"start":371.892,"end":382.739,"text":"欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分"},{"start":398.328,"end":425.428,"text":"那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法"},{"start":426.369,"end":431.797,"text":"那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了"},{"start":443.593,"end":469.051,"text":"那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下"},{"start":470.513,"end":475.061,"text":"讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講"},{"start":477.985,"end":492.593,"text":"這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼"},{"start":504.926,"end":514.673,"text":"公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案"},{"start":516.581,"end":539.677,"text":"安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法"},{"start":540.237,"end":569.2,"text":"的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面"},{"start":570.506,"end":598.357,"text":"安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於"},{"start":599.233,"end":608.338,"text":"這一個我們自己該做的事情 先把它完成如果說未來 大家覺得"},{"start":609.937,"end":633.917,"text":"這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說"},{"start":634.588,"end":655.086,"text":"要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能"},{"start":656.107,"end":672.196,"text":"沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題"},{"start":673.257,"end":688.232,"text":"那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件"},{"start":694.117,"end":719.708,"text":"相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式"},{"start":721.249,"end":732.757,"text":"那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法"},{"start":749.349,"end":768.456,"text":"那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":772.901,"end":788.774,"text":"跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並"},{"start":790.134,"end":805.368,"text":"不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對"},{"start":806.949,"end":808.39,"text":"我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢"},{"start":826.056,"end":839.669,"text":"會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時39分）在發言之前，我想先講一下，因為今天考試院秘書長身體不適，尤其我們經歷過這麼多，包含總統府秘書長、監察院秘書長、國安會秘書長都藐視立法院，今天考試院秘書長抱病還到我們這邊來備詢，而且還滿長的時間，我覺得這一點，我們真的應該予以肯定，也希望他的身體都沒有什麼事情。"],["主席：好，因為他已經先回去了，我這邊也是補充一下，剛剛我們也是一直希望秘書長先回，但秘書長就是認為這是他的職務，堅持留下來，所以我們非常感謝秘書長。這段時間有很多位秘書長，有的我們請他來，他不來，有的我們請他回去休息，他不願意，我的感覺是這個差距其實滿大的。"],["王委員鴻薇：真的差距太大，所以我覺得今天真的是肯定他。"],["主席：非常感動，我剛剛好多次請劉秘書長回去休息，他就說一定要留下來，把職務做完。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。秘書長先回去休息，我覺得沒有什麼問題，因為本來就是身體不適，不用在這邊硬撐著，但是我們還是非常謝謝他。","我想先請教一下保訓會主委，我們今天修正公務人員保障法，關於適用範圍，第一、請問政務官適不適用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，政務官是職安法有公告部分適用職安法，但是在我們這邊，現在是變成準用的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，如果派駐海外的……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：職霸申訴的部分而已，就是第一百零二條，委員在問的應該是第一百零二條，針對職霸申訴的部分，它是準用的。"],["王委員鴻薇：有關霸凌的部分，事實上，我們派駐海外的單位像代表處，時不時就會傳來外館霸凌事件，請問外館從大使、公使以下是不是也都準用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果是公務人員任用法的，他都適用。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是現在很多大使都是空降啊！很多大使沒有任何公務人員身分啊！包括很多公使也是如此。他沒有公務人員身分，他也許是立委、他也許是音樂家、他也許是歌手、他也許是某一位長官的好朋友，我不曉得這種大使、公使包不包含在裡面？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：在裡面，準用，因為他們屬於政務官。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請問一下軍人準不準用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，軍人有國防部他們自己一整套的安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以現在我們修正公務人員保障法，不包含軍人？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，不包含軍人。當然教職人員也包括在內，所以現在看起來講到現在……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：公立學校的沒有包括，公立學校老師是適用職安法。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，公立學校的校長呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：職安法。"],["王委員鴻薇：也是職安法，待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分，我想確定一下、釐清一下。","另外，我想請教銓敘部次長，我們從勞動部發生嚴重的霸凌事件之後，就全面檢討相關法律，除了我們今天修正公務人員保障法，讓霸凌防制能夠更加完善之外，過去我也曾經質詢過，考試院也曾經研修公務人員考績法，我自己也提出了公務人員考績法的修正，這個部分是要把職場霸凌納入公務人員的獎懲裡面。現在社會大眾高度重視譬如我們今天討論的霸凌，或者是之前大家也非常關心的性騷、跟騷、酒駕甚至毒駕，我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件，這些都是社會高度關注，尤其公務人員不應該發生的事情，我們應該把它納入公務人員考績法裡面的獎懲項目。我想請問一下銓敘部，你們現在修法的進度為何？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，您剛剛垂詢的這部分是屬於我們公務人員考績法第十二條的部分，考試院已經在今年的5月6日把公務人員考績法的修正案送到大院來了，主要是修改一次記兩大過的專案考績，包括職霸、性騷或性侵等等規範，我們都完整的檢視這個法並送到大院來。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以已經送到立法院來了，5月6日的時候，是不是？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是霸凌的部分已經納入，跟騷、性騷、性侵有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：這次我們都整體的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下酒駕有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：毒駕有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：有，目前大概都在條文裡面……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，都已經在條文裡，真的這樣的話，我們也會加速來修法。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為本來各項的法律就應該齊頭並進。","另外，我想請問一下保訓會主委，剛才談到職安法，我們再怎麼樣的去保障公務人員的勞動環境跟勞動條件，但是廣大的基層公務人員認為，如果僅僅是修正公務人員保障法不足以那麼全面的照顧到，所以基層公務人員一直都有一個聲音，就是讓公務人員能夠全面適用職安法。像今天的修法，同樣的比如霸凌，在原本你們的版本裡面就沒有相關的刑法懲處，可是在職安法就有刑法。所以職安法對勞工來講是保障，同時基層公務人員也認為對他們的保障是比較全面的。就我所了解，其實你們也有跟一些公務人員團體接觸，他們也跟你們陳情，然後你們也有跟他們開會，所以我想了解一下，讓公務人員全面適用職安法，剛才也講公立學校教職員已經適用職安法了，同樣是公教人員，為什麼公立學校教職員可以適用職安法，而公家機關的基層公務人員就不能適用職安法呢？請問現在要推動公務人員全面適用職安法，你們目前的進度還有你們目前的態度是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，現階段我們提出公務人員保障法的修正草案，以及安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性修正，基本上是憲法增修條文第六條對於考試院職掌上的要求，再來就是大院在行使這一屆考試院長周弘憲院長同意權的時候，要求我們儘速提出公務人員保障法的修正跟安衛辦法，以完備整個公務體系的安全衛生及職場霸凌防治，所以這點我們責無旁貸，而且面對大院及貴委員會期待迅速的要求，現階段就是把大院對我們的要求儘速完成。除了速度以外，其實最重要的是在整個法制的建置上，安衛辦法、保障法與職安法等相關規範是要拉齊的，讓我們的法規就職霸部分規範得更為詳細。現階段各界的共識是希望儘速讓公務人員職場安全這套制度完備或是更加健全，所以我們目前先把自己該做的事完成。如果未來大家覺得不只委員列出的這三類代表，也應包含社會各界還有各式各樣公務人員……"],["王委員鴻薇：對！沒錯。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果未來不只這三個團體而已，因為我們也徵詢了很多其他團體。委員所提及這三個團體立場是一致的，但其他團體並沒有提出要全面適用職安法這樣的要求，所以對於這個部分，我們目前沒有思考這個方向，就是把我們該做的部分做好。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你講了那麼久，意思就是你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：委員這樣的說法可能沒有很……我們沒有表示贊成與不贊成，而是現階段考試院及我們保訓會是做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待與要求。"],["王委員鴻薇：這些你剛剛都講過，包含今天就是要加速推動修法，這都沒有問題，只是對於很多基層公務人員──如同剛剛講到的醫院或學校已經適用職安法，大家總覺得一國不要兩制、一國不要三制、不要那麼多制，所以確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在勞動條件及環境的相關部分，他們應該可以適用職安法，因為他們覺得有更好的保障，因此我剛才問你們的態度。你們的態度怎麼樣？是不贊成也沒有反對？沒有贊成也沒有反對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，我們過去這幾個月非常努力地完成大院對於我們的要求跟期待，而委員這一題屬於未來式，未來如果整個社會氛圍以及大家都覺得可以，那就是社會上各行各業、包含各類公務人員，大家可以一起討論的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣好不好？待會留一些時間，進入法條時再討論。","你剛剛講，除了這三個基層公務人員團體之外，還有很多團體不一定支持納入職安法，既然你說你們跟那麼多單位溝通，你可不可以提供正反意見？是正反意見，一定有人支持嘛！但照你的意思，雖然有人支持，可是不是所有人都支持，也有人反對，或是有人不支持也不反對，你把這些正反意見提供給我們委員，可以嗎？提供給我們辦公室，可以嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這個資料我們是可以提供，但是那天主要是針對之前的草案作討論，這個議題不是當天的議題，所以有些團體以及很多機關代表並不會直接對這一題有所表態。"],["王委員鴻薇：他們可能沒有表態，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係，你就把你們跟所有團體討論職安法相關議題時有表態的提供給我嘛！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：可以，沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣我們可以作為參考嘛！因為你可能怕這樣會以偏概全，搞不好其他團體沒有說需要啊！","我一再地講，基本立場就是修正公務人員保障法是現在正在做的工作，但是會有愈來愈多基層公務人員覺得需要更多保障，所以我覺得這些本來就是……不要說未來啦！而是現在就會面臨到這些問題，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：以上，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","先處理會議時間問題。中午不休息，上午會議持續進行處理議程所列事項。","現在進行討論事項，處理前先宣讀條文。由於第二案提案條文已宣讀完畢，請議事人員宣讀第一案提案條文，預估宣讀時間12分鐘。如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出，請儘速將書面資料送交主席臺以利印發現場、進行討論。","審查法案時，請主要列席機關代表移至主席臺後方。宣讀時已經收到的修正動議也一併宣讀，宣讀後即進行討論。","請宣讀條文。","INCLUDEPICTURE 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\"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_16.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_17.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_18.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_19.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_20.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_21.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_22.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_23.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_24.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_25.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_26.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_27.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_28.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_29.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","二、討論事項第一案修正動議：","1.","2.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_3.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_4.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","3.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","4.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_4.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_5.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_6.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","三、討論事項第二案修正動議：","INCLUDEPICTURE \"\\\\\\\\10.21.31.211\\\\snp\\\\dpc17\\\\38_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"\\\\\\\\10.21.31.211\\\\snp\\\\dpc17\\\\38_頁面_3.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}}