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\"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 273.827, \"end\": 273.967, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 273.967, \"end\": 274.028, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 274.028, \"end\": 274.048, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}]}, {\"start\": 278.969, \"end\": 302.906, \"text\": \"這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 278.969, \"end\": 279.65, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 279.65, \"end\": 279.77, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 279.77, \"end\": 279.91, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 279.91, \"end\": 280.01, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 280.01, \"end\": 280.55, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 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依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 306.534, \"end\": 307.275, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 307.275, \"end\": 307.415, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 307.415, \"end\": 307.595, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 307.595, \"end\": 307.735, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 307.735, \"end\": 307.875, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 307.875, \"end\": 307.935, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 307.935, \"end\": 308.776, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 308.776, \"end\": 309.076, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 309.076, \"end\": 309.156, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 309.156, \"end\": 309.397, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 309.397, \"end\": 311.178, \"score\": 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634.096, \"end\": 634.116, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 634.116, \"end\": 634.196, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"玲\", \"start\": 634.196, \"end\": 634.296, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 634.296, \"end\": 634.416, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 634.416, \"end\": 634.436, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,209 --> 00:00:23,502\n我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有\n\n2\n00:00:24,202 --> 00:00:48,043\n為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛對嗎好\n\n3\n00:00:49,424 --> 00:01:00,400\n但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎\n\n4\n00:01:05,941 --> 00:01:25,450\n所以處理的流程程序您很清楚對嗎好那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關\n\n5\n00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:43,956\n那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯對嗎好那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本\n\n6\n00:01:49,418 --> 00:02:14,036\n我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員目前沒有好目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外\n\n7\n00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:35,109\n如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,779 --> 00:02:53,530\n對目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該\n\n9\n00:02:55,391 --> 00:03:21,894\n這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址\n\n10\n00:03:23,175 --> 00:03:42,774\n那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說\n\n11\n00:03:44,396 --> 00:04:01,210\n這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說\n\n12\n00:04:02,531 --> 00:04:11,218\n發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶\n\n13\n00:04:17,162 --> 00:04:34,048\n甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過\n\n14\n00:04:38,969 --> 00:05:02,906\n這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考\n\n15\n00:05:06,534 --> 00:05:25,570\n市長依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會\n\n16\n00:05:29,794 --> 00:05:42,369\n擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的\n\n17\n00:05:43,951 --> 00:05:58,681\n如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個\n\n18\n00:06:02,404 --> 00:06:10,310\n市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中\n\n19\n00:06:19,657 --> 00:06:44,807\n有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后\n\n20\n00:06:45,347 --> 00:07:13,504\n那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对\n\n21\n00:07:15,346 --> 00:07:21,257\n據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功\n\n22\n00:07:21,958 --> 00:07:50,752\n因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃\n\n23\n00:07:51,212 --> 00:08:15,398\n其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢\n\n24\n00:08:17,418 --> 00:08:37,583\n應該是類似就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說\n\n25\n00:08:38,443 --> 00:08:57,484\n文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛對嗎好那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看\n\n26\n00:08:59,125 --> 00:09:19,574\n這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解\n\n27\n00:09:20,054 --> 00:09:26,797\n那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼\n\n28\n00:09:50,642 --> 00:10:14,438\n這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去\n\n29\n00:10:14,718 --> 00:10:33,062\n妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔\n\n30\n00:10:34,096 --> 00:10:34,436\n好謝謝萬美玲委員次長請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5209\t23502\t我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有\n24202\t48043\t為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛 對嗎 好\n49424\t60400\t但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎\n65941\t85450\t所以處理的流程程序您很清楚 對嗎好 那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關\n86630\t103956\t那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯 對嗎好 那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本\n109418\t134036\t我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員 目前沒有好 目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外\n134796\t155109\t如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎\n156779\t173530\t對 目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解 我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該\n175391\t201894\t這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址\n203175\t222774\t那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說\n224396\t241210\t這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說\n242531\t251218\t發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶\n257162\t274048\t甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過\n278969\t302906\t這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考\n306534\t325570\t市長 依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會\n329794\t342369\t擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的\n343951\t358681\t如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個\n362404\t370310\t市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中\n379657\t404807\t有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后\n405347\t433504\t那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对\n435346\t441257\t據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功\n441958\t470752\t因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃\n471212\t495398\t其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢\n497418\t517583\t應該是類似 就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是 聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好 我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說\n518443\t537484\t文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛 對嗎好 那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉 我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看\n539125\t559574\t這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解\n560054\t566797\t那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼\n590642\t614438\t這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去\n614718\t633062\t妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔\n634096\t634436\t好 謝謝萬美玲委員 次長請\n","txt":"我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有\n為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛 對嗎 好\n但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎\n所以處理的流程程序您很清楚 對嗎好 那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關\n那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯 對嗎好 那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本\n我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員 目前沒有好 目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外\n如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎\n對 目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解 我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該\n這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址\n那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說\n這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說\n發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶\n甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過\n這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考\n市長 依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會\n擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的\n如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個\n市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中\n有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后\n那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对\n據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功\n因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃\n其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢\n應該是類似 就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是 聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好 我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說\n文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛 對嗎好 那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉 我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看\n這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解\n那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼\n這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去\n妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔\n好 謝謝萬美玲委員 次長請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.209 --> 00:23.502\n我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有\n\n00:24.202 --> 00:48.043\n為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛對嗎好\n\n00:49.424 --> 01:00.400\n但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎\n\n01:05.941 --> 01:25.450\n所以處理的流程程序您很清楚對嗎好那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關\n\n01:26.630 --> 01:43.956\n那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯對嗎好那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本\n\n01:49.418 --> 02:14.036\n我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員目前沒有好目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外\n\n02:14.796 --> 02:35.109\n如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎\n\n02:36.779 --> 02:53.530\n對目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該\n\n02:55.391 --> 03:21.894\n這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址\n\n03:23.175 --> 03:42.774\n那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說\n\n03:44.396 --> 04:01.210\n這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說\n\n04:02.531 --> 04:11.218\n發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶\n\n04:17.162 --> 04:34.048\n甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過\n\n04:38.969 --> 05:02.906\n這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考\n\n05:06.534 --> 05:25.570\n市長依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會\n\n05:29.794 --> 05:42.369\n擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的\n\n05:43.951 --> 05:58.681\n如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個\n\n06:02.404 --> 06:10.310\n市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中\n\n06:19.657 --> 06:44.807\n有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后\n\n06:45.347 --> 07:13.504\n那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对\n\n07:15.346 --> 07:21.257\n據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功\n\n07:21.958 --> 07:50.752\n因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃\n\n07:51.212 --> 08:15.398\n其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢\n\n08:17.418 --> 08:37.583\n應該是類似就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說\n\n08:38.443 --> 08:57.484\n文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛對嗎好那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看\n\n08:59.125 --> 09:19.574\n這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解\n\n09:20.054 --> 09:26.797\n那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼\n\n09:50.642 --> 10:14.438\n這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去\n\n10:14.718 --> 10:33.062\n妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔\n\n10:34.096 --> 10:34.436\n好謝謝萬美玲委員次長請\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.209,"end":23.502,"text":"我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有"},{"start":24.202,"end":48.043,"text":"為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛 對嗎 好"},{"start":49.424,"end":60.4,"text":"但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎"},{"start":65.941,"end":85.45,"text":"所以處理的流程程序您很清楚 對嗎好 那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關"},{"start":86.63,"end":103.956,"text":"那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯 對嗎好 那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本"},{"start":109.418,"end":134.036,"text":"我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員 目前沒有好 目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外"},{"start":134.796,"end":155.109,"text":"如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎"},{"start":156.779,"end":173.53,"text":"對 目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解 我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該"},{"start":175.391,"end":201.894,"text":"這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址"},{"start":203.175,"end":222.774,"text":"那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說"},{"start":224.396,"end":241.21,"text":"這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說"},{"start":242.531,"end":251.218,"text":"發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶"},{"start":257.162,"end":274.048,"text":"甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過"},{"start":278.969,"end":302.906,"text":"這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考"},{"start":306.534,"end":325.57,"text":"市長 依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會"},{"start":329.794,"end":342.369,"text":"擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的"},{"start":343.951,"end":358.681,"text":"如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個"},{"start":362.404,"end":370.31,"text":"市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中"},{"start":379.657,"end":404.807,"text":"有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后"},{"start":405.347,"end":433.504,"text":"那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对"},{"start":435.346,"end":441.257,"text":"據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功"},{"start":441.958,"end":470.752,"text":"因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃"},{"start":471.212,"end":495.398,"text":"其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢"},{"start":497.418,"end":517.583,"text":"應該是類似 就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是 聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好 我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說"},{"start":518.443,"end":537.484,"text":"文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛 對嗎好 那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉 我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看"},{"start":539.125,"end":559.574,"text":"這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解"},{"start":560.054,"end":566.797,"text":"那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼"},{"start":590.642,"end":614.438,"text":"這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去"},{"start":614.718,"end":633.062,"text":"妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔"},{"start":634.096,"end":634.436,"text":"好 謝謝萬美玲委員 次長請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時43分）謝謝召委。有請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長好。我想我們的歷史、建物、古蹟、遺址等文化資產，都具有公共財的屬性，是臺灣所有人民共同的瑰寶，我相信你認同嘛。我們在前年看到文資法修正，我們配合大法官釋字第813號解釋，歷史建築土地為第三人所有，未以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償，不符憲法第十五條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲，所以本院修法「保障歷史建築及紀念建築其坐落土地的所有權人，得申請容積移轉及享有免徵地價稅、房屋稅優惠」，我想這個次長都知道，對嗎？但是同樣在文化資產的保存上，針對開發單位，不管是公私部門，在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候，您知道清除是怎麼處理的嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：通常是先不能動，先保存。"],["萬委員美玲：處理的流程、程序您很清楚，對嗎？好，那我們就繼續來討論。根據文化資產保存法第五十七條第二款規定，「營建工程或其他開發行為進行中，發見疑似考古遺址時，應即停止工程或開發行為之進行，並通知所在地直轄市、縣（市）主管機關……主管機關應即進行調查，並送審議會審議，以採取相關措施，完成審議程序前，開發單位不得復工」，這也沒有錯，對嗎？","好，審議有的時候需要滿長的一段時間，不管是公私部門的開發計畫，開發單位都要去承擔停工的相關成本，我想請教一下次長，目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話，國家是不是有任何補償的相關措施？"],["李次長靜慧：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：目前沒有，但是依照現行法規來看，如果開發單位挖到遺址，不僅必須獨自承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外，如果它現在要繼續開發復工，還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫，再依照審議的面積先行試掘還有保存。這當中除了耗費很多時間相關成本之外，還有很多費用，而這一切都必須由開發單位自行承擔。這些您都知道嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，目前的狀況是這樣子。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您是清楚的嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：對，其實我們的主要目的是希望，它在開發之前先有一個調查。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我瞭解，我們繼續往下看。台積電在南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝廠，結果挖到遺址而必須停工，這個次長應該也曉得。在本席的選區裡面有桃園捷運綠線，在109年的時候G07站也挖到考古遺址，所以也造成停工，延宕工程進度其實還滿嚴重的，直到上一週文資的審查才完成。","今年我們看到在桃園一樣，桃園的臺鐵新站好不容易才動工，馬上又挖到考古遺址，其中保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資承擔。這樣的問題其實不斷在發生，除了剛剛本席舉的3個例子之外，我們其實很難保……未來在相關重大的這些公私建設、重大國家建設都會發生這樣的問題，所以我想今天拿出來討論時就必須提到，我們剛剛有提到相關的這些考古遺址是全民的公共財，而且我們要知道，如果剛好沒有這個工程，沒有開發單位的開發、挖掘，恐怕這些文物跟遺址就沒有重見天日的一天。所以我想政府要去想一想，發現這樣一個狀況的時候，我們是不是應該要有一些相關的補償方式？有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做比較好？因為這個問題會一直存在。","我們要看，如果開發的行為挖到這個寶，可是卻沒有通報，甚至在我們不知道或者是知道的情況之下，文化資產受損了，其實它也要被處罰。這樣是不是就有一點有功沒有賞、打破卻還要賠？我想這樣就有一點不合理，也不利於未來遺址的保存。","再來要跟次長談的是，全國商業總會也曾經提出過，有開發單位也跟他們陳情，挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用，其實有時候這是沒有行情的天價，沒有一個行情在。目前文化部針對剛剛相關的問題，我想待會就請次長簡答一下，並且提出文化部現在有沒有研議去建立相關的評估人才庫，以供開發單位作參考。次長。"],["李次長靜慧：依序回答一下委員的提問，剛剛講到目前對開發單位來講，如果它挖到有這些考古遺址的時候，目前的法令的確是要求停工，然後要等審議委員會，這中間沒有任何的補償機制。為什麼不給補償機制？這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者討論過，專家學者是擔憂如果有了補償機制，會讓任何開發單位無後顧之憂地隨便開發，這樣就有變相鼓勵開發的情形，這是他們的憂慮，所以建議我們不要有補償機制。","可是委員剛剛說到，如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話，它就一直被埋在地底下，可能也永無天日可見，這是另外一種議題、另外一種思考模式，或許我們在這個方向上，可以再跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者……"],["萬委員美玲：再討論好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：會進一步討論，這是第一個。"],["萬委員美玲：剛剛講到試挖掘的行情呢？"],["李次長靜慧：試挖掘的人才庫，這個部分我們可以去建立，然後提出一個建議名單。這個我們可以……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想這兩個問題都非常重要，希望會後次長在文化部可以好好討論一下。","接下來我要再提到，我想我國在當前世界遺產的潛力點當中，有包含水金九礦業遺址，還有卑南遺址、都蘭山，地面下其實可能還有一些極具潛力的遺址。如果按照現在的制度下去做，我們其實很擔憂，未來具有潛力的遺址會不會因此而被掩埋掉？我們可以參考各專家學者過去的經驗、碰到的困難，希望你們回去想一想之後，能夠在什麼樣的時間之內把這個報告提供給我們？不曉得次長覺得一個月的時間夠嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：可以兩個月嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：兩個月？好。如果有兩個月的時間，我希望能更仔細、更嚴謹一點，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來我們再來討論，今天召委排的這個案子，今天都有提到目前臺灣有18個世界遺產潛力點，到目前為止還沒有任何一個申請成世界遺產，對不對？據瞭解……為什麼我們到現在都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功？"],["李次長靜慧：因為我們不具備申請的資格，它必須是聯合國的會員國，或者是UNESCO的會員國，又或者是世界遺產保護公約的簽約國。"],["萬委員美玲：要符合以上條件，對嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，要有這三個條件。"],["萬委員美玲：其實我們也看到，有簽署世界遺產保護公約的國家，除了聯合國那193個會員國以外，還有兩個觀察會員國，包括教廷跟巴勒斯坦，還有兩個非會員國，包括庫克群島跟紐埃，其實他們都已經簽署了這個公約。文化部有沒有去瞭解一下，為什麼庫克群島跟紐埃這個例子是可以的呢？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的詢問，我們也去查了，庫克群島最主要是聯合國秘書處在1992年的時候，承認庫克群島可以有締約能力，所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一。"],["萬委員美玲：那紐埃呢？"],["李次長靜慧：應該是類似、一樣的狀況，可是目前就是聯合國秘書處不願意承認臺灣具有締約的能力。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想我們繼續努力，因為這兩個例子本席看到以後也覺得很奇怪，其實它們也不是會員國，也有去瞭解，我們就知道原因是什麼。","另外我要再提到一個，文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站，次長知道，對嗎？裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料，也包含當前世界遺產的數量，次長，這個官網你都看過嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：抱歉，我沒有真的看過，但是我知道……"],["萬委員美玲：官網架設起來，你自己都不看是要給誰看？"],["李次長靜慧：真的很抱歉，我會改進。我們同事有說明，現在這個網站正在改版當中，所以目前的資料還有文字上……"],["萬委員美玲：所以就是因為你們自己都不重視、自己都不去瞭解，難怪裡面都會有很多問題。我希望這些問題儘量不是我們點出來才去看，對於自己架設的官網，你身為次長當然須要去瞭解。","文化部近3年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站並更新資料，但是本席幫你們從這個網站上去看這個世界遺產的數量時，我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產，231處自然遺產，以及40處的複合遺產，一共是1,223處的世界遺產，但是網站的下方的介紹卻寫道，世界遺產只有1,202處，這個落差是為什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：這個資料不夠準確的地方，我們都會一併更正。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我必須要講，其實這個很糟糕，因為這個是你們官網。第一個，官網架設出來，你們毫不重視，資料亂七八糟，甚至還有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤，然後次長自己不看，相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看，這樣的官網還編了預算，我覺得這個預算編給你們不是很糟蹋嗎？對不對？而且官網還要花人力下去，你既糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力……"],["李次長靜慧：非常抱歉，我們來檢討。"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得這個要嚴正地譴責。多久的時間可以改正好？"],["李次長靜慧：這個在改版中，我們今年年底一定會完全改版，完成之後這些資料的謬誤會一併……"],["萬委員美玲：多久的時間可以改完？"],["李次長靜慧：我們就是今年年底會全部改好。"],["萬委員美玲：還要到今年年底喔！"],["李次長靜慧：數字的部分，我們會馬上修正，只是改版的部分，還有包括語言版本的部分，在今年年底會完成。"],["萬委員美玲：你要整個重大改版，我沒有意見，但是就現在你的官網上面，不管數字還是內容，應該要更新還是要豐富，一個禮拜之內完成，可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，次長請回。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。回娘家，4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}}