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1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 192.253, \"end\": 192.353, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 192.353, \"end\": 192.513, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 192.513, \"end\": 192.573, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 192.573, \"end\": 192.733, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 192.733, \"end\": 192.913, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 192.913, \"end\": 192.933, \"score\": 0.034}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}]}, {\"start\": 194.654, \"end\": 222.074, \"text\": \"所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 194.654, \"end\": 194.814, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 194.814, \"end\": 194.934, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 194.934, \"end\": 195.074, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 195.074, \"end\": 196.495, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 196.495, \"end\": 196.635, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 196.635, \"end\": 197.236, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"遺\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 197.236, \"end\": 198.056, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 198.056, \"end\": 198.196, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 198.196, \"end\": 198.577, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 198.577, \"end\": 199.457, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 199.457, \"end\": 199.737, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 199.737, \"end\": 199.817, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 199.817, \"end\": 199.938, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 199.938, \"end\": 200.218, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 200.218, 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{\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 208.964, \"end\": 209.305, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 209.305, \"end\": 209.505, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 209.505, \"end\": 209.645, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 209.645, \"end\": 209.745, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 209.745, \"end\": 209.885, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 209.885, \"end\": 210.105, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 210.105, \"end\": 211.066, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 211.066, \"end\": 211.646, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 211.646, \"end\": 211.827, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 211.827, \"end\": 212.107, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 212.107, \"end\": 212.227, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 212.227, \"end\": 213.448, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 213.448, \"end\": 213.628, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 213.628, \"end\": 213.908, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 213.908, \"end\": 214.429, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"潛\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 214.429, \"end\": 214.829, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 214.829, \"end\": 215.029, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 215.029, \"end\": 215.169, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 215.169, \"end\": 215.409, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 215.409, \"end\": 215.87, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.87, \"end\": 216.11, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 216.11, \"end\": 216.37, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 216.37, \"end\": 216.63, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 216.63, \"end\": 216.991, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 216.991, \"end\": 217.271, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 217.271, \"end\": 217.991, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 217.991, \"end\": 218.111, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 218.111, \"end\": 218.231, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 218.231, \"end\": 219.332, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 219.332, \"end\": 220.253, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 220.253, \"end\": 220.413, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 220.413, \"end\": 220.813, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"頭\"}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 220.813, \"end\": 221.414, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 221.414, \"end\": 221.714, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"江\", \"start\": 221.714, \"end\": 221.874, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 221.874, \"end\": 222.054, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 222.054, \"end\": 222.074, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"鎮\"}]}, {\"start\": 223.373, \"end\": 250.751, \"text\": \"他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 223.373, \"end\": 223.733, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 223.733, \"end\": 224.073, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 224.073, \"end\": 224.194, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 224.194, \"end\": 224.434, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 224.434, \"end\": 225.354, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"鑽\"}, {\"word\": \"泥\", \"start\": 225.354, \"end\": 225.574, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 225.574, \"end\": 225.795, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 225.795, \"end\": 226.015, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 226.015, \"end\": 226.475, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 226.475, \"end\": 226.715, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 226.715, \"end\": 227.576, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 227.576, \"end\": 227.696, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 227.696, \"end\": 227.716, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 227.716, \"end\": 227.756, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 227.756, \"end\": 227.876, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 227.876, \"end\": 228.016, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 228.016, \"end\": 228.176, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 228.176, \"end\": 228.356, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 228.356, \"end\": 228.556, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 228.556, \"end\": 228.736, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 228.736, \"end\": 229.497, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 229.497, \"end\": 229.777, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"屯\", \"start\": 229.777, \"end\": 230.017, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"火\", \"start\": 230.017, \"end\": 230.197, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 230.197, \"end\": 230.418, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"群\", \"start\": 230.418, \"end\": 231.118, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 231.118, \"end\": 231.358, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 231.358, \"end\": 231.598, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 231.598, \"end\": 232.119, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"鑽\"}, {\"word\": \"泥\", \"start\": 232.119, \"end\": 232.579, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 232.579, \"end\": 232.779, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 232.779, \"end\": 233.039, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 233.039, \"end\": 233.299, 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 245.787, \"end\": 245.928, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 245.928, \"end\": 246.068, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 246.068, \"end\": 246.628, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 246.628, \"end\": 246.768, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 246.768, \"end\": 247.368, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 247.368, \"end\": 247.509, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 247.509, \"end\": 247.809, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 247.809, \"end\": 247.929, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 247.929, \"end\": 248.189, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 248.189, \"end\": 248.369, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 248.369, \"end\": 248.489, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 248.489, \"end\": 248.769, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 248.769, \"end\": 248.909, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 248.909, \"end\": 249.11, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 249.11, \"end\": 249.19, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 249.19, \"end\": 249.29, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 249.29, \"end\": 249.55, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 249.55, \"end\": 249.75, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 249.75, \"end\": 249.91, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 249.91, \"end\": 250.37, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 250.37, \"end\": 250.571, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 250.571, \"end\": 250.731, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 250.731, \"end\": 250.751, \"score\": 0.139}]}, {\"start\": 251.471, \"end\": 279.59, \"text\": \"那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 251.471, \"end\": 251.611, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 251.611, \"end\": 251.731, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 251.731, \"end\": 252.072, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 252.072, \"end\": 252.272, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 252.272, \"end\": 252.632, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 252.632, \"end\": 253.552, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 253.552, \"end\": 253.773, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 253.773, \"end\": 254.433, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 254.433, \"end\": 254.753, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 254.753, \"end\": 254.893, 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\"還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 384.52, \"end\": 384.94, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 384.94, \"end\": 385.06, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 385.06, \"end\": 385.2, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 385.2, \"end\": 385.421, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 385.421, \"end\": 385.721, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"附\", \"start\": 385.721, \"end\": 385.861, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"近\", \"start\": 385.861, \"end\": 386.021, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 386.021, \"end\": 386.181, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 386.181, \"end\": 386.581, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 386.581, \"end\": 387.122, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 387.122, \"end\": 387.282, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"築\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 393.205, \"end\": 393.345, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 393.345, \"end\": 394.026, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 394.026, \"end\": 394.186, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 394.186, \"end\": 394.386, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 394.386, \"end\": 394.626, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 394.626, \"end\": 395.446, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 395.446, \"end\": 395.587, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 395.587, \"end\": 396.207, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 396.207, \"end\": 396.407, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"存\", \"start\": 396.407, \"end\": 396.667, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 396.667, \"end\": 396.827, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.827, \"end\": 397.287, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 397.287, \"end\": 398.288, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 398.288, \"end\": 398.428, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 398.428, \"end\": 398.528, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 398.528, \"end\": 398.608, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 398.608, \"end\": 398.748, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 398.748, \"end\": 398.808, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 398.808, \"end\": 398.888, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 398.888, \"end\": 398.908, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"報\"}]}, {\"start\": 399.989, \"end\": 425.312, \"text\": \"然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 399.989, \"end\": 400.129, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 400.129, \"end\": 400.249, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 400.249, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 404.773, \"end\": 404.974, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 404.974, \"end\": 405.194, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 405.194, \"end\": 406.935, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"勘\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 406.935, \"end\": 407.136, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 407.136, \"end\": 407.456, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 407.456, \"end\": 407.756, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 407.756, \"end\": 407.896, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 407.896, \"end\": 408.116, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 408.116, \"end\": 408.377, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 408.377, \"end\": 409.197, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 409.197, \"end\": 409.337, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 409.337, \"end\": 409.618, \"score\": 0.928}, 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\"他\", \"start\": 419.547, \"end\": 419.707, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 419.707, \"end\": 419.907, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 419.907, \"end\": 420.167, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 420.167, \"end\": 420.548, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 420.548, \"end\": 420.888, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 420.888, \"end\": 421.028, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 421.028, \"end\": 421.168, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 421.168, \"end\": 421.288, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 421.288, \"end\": 421.448, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 421.448, \"end\": 421.629, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"宅\", \"start\": 421.629, \"end\": 422.709, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 422.709, \"end\": 422.91, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 422.91, \"end\": 423.05, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 423.05, \"end\": 423.15, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 423.15, \"end\": 423.25, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 423.25, \"end\": 423.41, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 423.41, \"end\": 424.351, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"割\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 424.351, \"end\": 424.471, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 424.471, \"end\": 424.591, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 424.591, \"end\": 424.731, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 424.731, \"end\": 425.032, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 425.032, \"end\": 425.192, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 425.192, \"end\": 425.292, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 425.292, \"end\": 425.312, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 427.082, \"end\": 448.21, \"text\": \"那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 427.082, \"end\": 427.862, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 427.862, \"end\": 428.042, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"堆\", \"start\": 428.042, \"end\": 428.202, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 428.202, \"end\": 428.382, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 428.382, \"end\": 428.543, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 428.543, \"end\": 428.663, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 428.663, \"end\": 428.783, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 428.783, \"end\": 429.263, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 429.263, \"end\": 429.463, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 429.463, \"end\": 429.623, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 429.623, \"end\": 430.003, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 430.003, \"end\": 430.203, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 430.203, \"end\": 431.184, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 431.184, \"end\": 431.624, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 431.624, \"end\": 431.704, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 431.704, \"end\": 431.884, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 431.884, \"end\": 432.044, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 432.044, \"end\": 432.204, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 432.204, \"end\": 432.344, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 432.344, \"end\": 432.904, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 432.904, \"end\": 433.304, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 433.304, \"end\": 433.744, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 433.744, \"end\": 434.425, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 434.425, \"end\": 434.585, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 434.585, \"end\": 435.265, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 435.265, \"end\": 437.086, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 437.086, \"end\": 437.366, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 437.366, \"end\": 437.746, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 437.746, \"end\": 438.306, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 438.306, \"end\": 438.446, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 438.446, \"end\": 438.586, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 438.586, \"end\": 438.706, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 438.706, \"end\": 438.786, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 438.786, \"end\": 440.127, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 440.127, \"end\": 440.187, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 440.187, \"end\": 440.367, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 440.367, \"end\": 440.687, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 440.687, \"end\": 440.887, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 440.887, \"end\": 441.107, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"怨\", \"start\": 441.107, \"end\": 441.727, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"聲\"}, {\"word\": \"載\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 441.727, \"end\": 442.288, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 442.288, \"end\": 442.408, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 442.408, \"end\": 442.488, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 442.488, \"end\": 442.868, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": 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00:00:14,824\n主席麻煩請文化部次長好有請次長\n\n2\n00:00:23,043 --> 00:00:47,083\n今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作\n\n3\n00:00:48,524 --> 00:01:02,341\n那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現\n\n4\n00:01:03,422 --> 00:01:05,985\n市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:24,785 --> 00:01:51,796\n當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前\n\n6\n00:01:53,199 --> 00:01:53,932\n你的目標是什麼\n\n7\n00:01:55,404 --> 00:02:22,951\n我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況\n\n8\n00:02:24,932 --> 00:02:44,628\n也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛\n\n9\n00:02:45,208 --> 00:03:12,933\n但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會\n\n10\n00:03:14,654 --> 00:03:42,074\n所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮\n\n11\n00:03:43,373 --> 00:04:10,751\n他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛\n\n12\n00:04:11,471 --> 00:04:39,590\n那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎\n\n13\n00:04:42,525 --> 00:04:52,789\n市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎\n\n14\n00:04:54,127 --> 00:05:20,136\n我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說\n\n15\n00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:40,951\n我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛\n\n16\n00:05:42,316 --> 00:06:05,166\n地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會\n\n17\n00:06:06,721 --> 00:06:22,879\n你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情\n\n18\n00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:38,908\n還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報\n\n19\n00:06:39,989 --> 00:07:05,312\n然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個\n\n20\n00:07:07,082 --> 00:07:28,210\n那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛\n\n21\n00:07:29,967 --> 00:07:53,908\n對你先確定有或沒有假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產\n\n22\n00:07:55,151 --> 00:08:21,440\n他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果\n\n23\n00:08:24,089 --> 00:08:52,108\n這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛\n\n24\n00:08:52,768 --> 00:09:02,277\n假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛\n\n25\n00:09:03,339 --> 00:09:24,816\n對所以這我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得有有潛力\n\n26\n00:09:26,798 --> 00:09:52,114\n有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊\n\n27\n00:09:53,587 --> 00:10:17,853\n因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛\n\n28\n00:10:21,380 --> 00:10:47,917\n因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制\n\n29\n00:10:50,619 --> 00:11:15,329\n文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎\n\n30\n00:11:16,309 --> 00:11:42,183\n文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了\n\n31\n00:11:42,938 --> 00:11:44,300\n我們研究一下我們來研議檢討好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12099\t14824\t主席 麻煩請文化部次長好 有請次長\n23043\t47083\t今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作\n48524\t62341\t那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現\n63422\t65985\t市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼\n84785\t111796\t當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前\n113199\t113932\t你的目標是什麼\n115404\t142951\t我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況\n144932\t164628\t也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛\n165208\t192933\t但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會\n194654\t222074\t所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮\n223373\t250751\t他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛\n251471\t279590\t那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎\n282525\t292789\t市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎\n294127\t320136\t我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說\n321036\t340951\t我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有 不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說 哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛\n342316\t365166\t地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會\n366721\t382879\t你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情\n384520\t398908\t還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報\n399989\t425312\t然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個\n427082\t448210\t那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛\n449967\t473908\t對 你先確定有或沒有 假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產\n475151\t501440\t他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果\n504089\t532108\t這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛\n532768\t542277\t假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛\n543339\t564816\t對 所以這 我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是 這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以 主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說 你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得 有 有潛力\n566798\t592114\t有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊\n593587\t617853\t因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯 所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛 表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響 譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛 就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛\n621380\t647917\t因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制\n650619\t675329\t文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎\n676309\t702183\t文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了\n702938\t704300\t我們研究一下 我們來研議檢討好嗎好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席 麻煩請文化部次長好 有請次長\n今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作\n那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現\n市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼\n當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前\n你的目標是什麼\n我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況\n也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛\n但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會\n所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮\n他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛\n那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎\n市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎\n我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說\n我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有 不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說 哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛\n地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會\n你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情\n還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報\n然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個\n那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛\n對 你先確定有或沒有 假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產\n他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果\n這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛\n假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛\n對 所以這 我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是 這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以 主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說 你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得 有 有潛力\n有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊\n因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯 所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛 表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響 譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛 就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛\n因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制\n文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎\n文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了\n我們研究一下 我們來研議檢討好嗎好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.099 --> 00:14.824\n主席麻煩請文化部次長好有請次長\n\n00:23.043 --> 00:47.083\n今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作\n\n00:48.524 --> 01:02.341\n那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現\n\n01:03.422 --> 01:05.985\n市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼\n\n01:24.785 --> 01:51.796\n當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前\n\n01:53.199 --> 01:53.932\n你的目標是什麼\n\n01:55.404 --> 02:22.951\n我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況\n\n02:24.932 --> 02:44.628\n也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛\n\n02:45.208 --> 03:12.933\n但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會\n\n03:14.654 --> 03:42.074\n所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮\n\n03:43.373 --> 04:10.751\n他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛\n\n04:11.471 --> 04:39.590\n那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎\n\n04:42.525 --> 04:52.789\n市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎\n\n04:54.127 --> 05:20.136\n我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說\n\n05:21.036 --> 05:40.951\n我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛\n\n05:42.316 --> 06:05.166\n地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會\n\n06:06.721 --> 06:22.879\n你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情\n\n06:24.520 --> 06:38.908\n還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報\n\n06:39.989 --> 07:05.312\n然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個\n\n07:07.082 --> 07:28.210\n那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛\n\n07:29.967 --> 07:53.908\n對你先確定有或沒有假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產\n\n07:55.151 --> 08:21.440\n他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果\n\n08:24.089 --> 08:52.108\n這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛\n\n08:52.768 --> 09:02.277\n假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛\n\n09:03.339 --> 09:24.816\n對所以這我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得有有潛力\n\n09:26.798 --> 09:52.114\n有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊\n\n09:53.587 --> 10:17.853\n因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛\n\n10:21.380 --> 10:47.917\n因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制\n\n10:50.619 --> 11:15.329\n文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎\n\n11:16.309 --> 11:42.183\n文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了\n\n11:42.938 --> 11:44.300\n我們研究一下我們來研議檢討好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.099,"end":14.824,"text":"主席 麻煩請文化部次長好 有請次長"},{"start":23.043,"end":47.083,"text":"今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作"},{"start":48.524,"end":62.341,"text":"那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現"},{"start":63.422,"end":65.985,"text":"市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼"},{"start":84.785,"end":111.796,"text":"當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前"},{"start":113.199,"end":113.932,"text":"你的目標是什麼"},{"start":115.404,"end":142.951,"text":"我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況"},{"start":144.932,"end":164.628,"text":"也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛"},{"start":165.208,"end":192.933,"text":"但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會"},{"start":194.654,"end":222.074,"text":"所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮"},{"start":223.373,"end":250.751,"text":"他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛"},{"start":251.471,"end":279.59,"text":"那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎"},{"start":282.525,"end":292.789,"text":"市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎"},{"start":294.127,"end":320.136,"text":"我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說"},{"start":321.036,"end":340.951,"text":"我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有 不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說 哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛"},{"start":342.316,"end":365.166,"text":"地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會"},{"start":366.721,"end":382.879,"text":"你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情"},{"start":384.52,"end":398.908,"text":"還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報"},{"start":399.989,"end":425.312,"text":"然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個"},{"start":427.082,"end":448.21,"text":"那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛"},{"start":449.967,"end":473.908,"text":"對 你先確定有或沒有 假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產"},{"start":475.151,"end":501.44,"text":"他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":504.089,"end":532.108,"text":"這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛"},{"start":532.768,"end":542.277,"text":"假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛"},{"start":543.339,"end":564.816,"text":"對 所以這 我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是 這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以 主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說 你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得 有 有潛力"},{"start":566.798,"end":592.114,"text":"有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊"},{"start":593.587,"end":617.853,"text":"因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯 所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛 表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響 譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛 就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛"},{"start":621.38,"end":647.917,"text":"因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制"},{"start":650.619,"end":675.329,"text":"文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎"},{"start":676.309,"end":702.183,"text":"文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了"},{"start":702.938,"end":704.3,"text":"我們研究一下 我們來研議檢討好嗎好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時6分）主席好，麻煩請文化部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。今天我們在講世界遺產，其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個，我看到像之前呂秀蓮前副總統，他說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去經濟援助的外交模式，透過協助友邦維持文化遺產，一方面鞏固邦誼，另外一方面也讓臺灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作。朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似的呼籲，他說希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂生療養院的連結，保障樂生院的完整性。其實類似的蠻多的，但是你有沒有發現這都已經是2004年，或者是朱立倫當縣長的時候，大概都二十年前左右，代表這個東西已經推展很久了。我不曉得次長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候，你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：比如跑步，通常我們練跑要有一個終點線，你達到終點線的時候，這是一個階段的完成。在推動世界遺產這件事情來講，就是因為國際上申遺的標準，那個終點線我們沒有辦法畫出來的時候，對跑道上的……"],["葉委員元之：其實你們報告有寫，因為我們不是聯合國的會員，沒辦法申請。你在沒有辦法達到終點線前，你的目標是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：我們的目標就是希望能夠把所有的……"],["葉委員元之：終點線假設是一個遠程目標的話，那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：近程當然我們每一個潛力點它該有的文本，或者它該有的符合世界遺產審核標準的這個事情，我們要先準備好，這是第一階段。接下來當然就是因為世遺在所謂檢核的時候，除了這些資料，它的監測或者是維護的狀況也是他們的重點，所以這18個潛力點必須一直要在被維護好的狀態下，它才有機會。如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格，我們有機會參加資格考的時候，它才能夠有包裝……"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是反正我們都全部準備好，等到有一天我們可以申請，趕快就是給出去，機會是留給準備好的人嘛！所以這就不能夠成為二十多年來大家感覺沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦！","實際上文化部也一直在推動，我們都知道，譬如文化部有成立一個臺灣世界遺產推動會嘛！這上面是委員的名單，有文化部長，次長本人也在裡面，還有國防部、外交部、農業部、內政部，還有一些專家學者等等，有非常多人，大家也是定期開會，所以理論上來講，世界遺產潛力點不管怎麼樣都還是要日漸有功啦！有一些成果出來，可是我們又發現好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有，我這邊舉一個例子，譬如我們總共18個潛力點，但其中4項的文本到現在都還沒有完備，譬如烏山頭水庫及嘉南大圳，這邊就寫了文本撰擬進度是更新補充中，我不知道要更新多久啦！大屯火山群的文本撰擬進度未完成，太魯閣國家公園的文本撰擬進度也是未完成，玉山國家公園也一樣未完成。這4個文本沒有完成的潛力點，有的主政機關是單一的，譬如玉山國家公園就是內政部，內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一，他自己常常去開那個會，然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成，這就很奇怪啊！太魯閣國家公園除了內政部，當然還包括地方政府。請問一下，這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成，這是正常的嗎？二十多年來文本沒有完成，這正常嗎？次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢，沿路大家檢討起來，的確他們的……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！文化部也一樣，你們是主政機關嘛！我問你這是正常現象嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我們不認為這是正常的現象，我們也努力想要改善、推進度，所以其實透過最近這三次推動會召開的時候就不斷地提醒，然後也拜託內政部可以加速他們文本撰擬的進度。內政部當然有解釋說，因為他們沒有申請過世界遺產的這類經驗，所以希望文化部能夠給予協助。這部分……"],["葉委員元之：次長，是這樣子啦！如果我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情，我覺得大家也不會有什麼意見，但是誠如我剛剛講的，這已經二十多年了，到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有，然後你說萬一機會來了，我們要準備好，就沒有準備好嘛！所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛！對不對？地方政府也會覺得你是玩真的嗎？連內政部是委員之一，文本都沒有，你是玩真的嗎？你們自己中央都玩假的，你要我配合你幹嘛，對不對？我真的覺得很多指標大家檢驗下去，不會認為文化部有把這個當一回事在看啦！我是希望下一次如果還有機會你們要報告這個內容的話，應該要把大家認為原本要有的補起來，這是第一件事情。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["葉委員元之：第二件事情，我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定，因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情，在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院，它被個人提報為歷史建築，按照文化資產保存法的規定，任何人都可以提報，但是一旦經過提報，主辦的機關在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候，為了要保障所有權人的權益，必須要通知所有的土地所有權人一起來參與會勘，結果次長知道發生什麼事嗎？因為林園電影院是在一個社區型的集合住宅內，土地沒有分割，所以所有權人高達六百多個，一堆人到了現場，最後的結果是這個林園電影院沒有什麼文資的價值，可是問題是，這上百個土地所有權人來現場參與這個會議已經怨聲載道，第一個是他們覺得擾民，他們認為為什麼主辦機關不能先做第一階段的篩選，對不對？你先確定有或沒有，假設你認為有，你再來通知我們嘛！在沒有的情況之下把我們叫來，就是擾民嘛！第二個，其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築，他其實是反對的，因為一旦他的鄰近建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關單位被列為文化資產，他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響，所以他們都是反彈的，這個事情等於是擾民，而且沒有效益。按照規定主辦單位要通知所有權人，這個的主辦單位應該是新北市文化局，因為我們法律就是這樣規定的，我們的法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定，施行細則也是這樣規定，所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果。次長，這應該是你主管的業務吧？"],["李次長靜慧：是，我們會溝通跟討論，您剛剛講的兩個意見，一個是你們先審了之後，可是第二個意見馬上表示，其實有很多居民反對他們的建築物被列為歷史建築，所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話，他們就沒有機會表達他們的反對意見。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，也不見得喔！可以由專家學者先做初步的認定，假設沒有文資價值就排除了，有文資價值，再去邀請所有權人來開會，你就不用擾民了嘛！所以我剛剛講的那個沒有矛盾跟衝突，最主要是因為法規寫死在這裡，所以主辦機關必須這樣子做。基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改，或者是文化部如果認為需要修法，那就可以解決這個問題。你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定，覺得有有潛力，有必要召開所有權人會議的時候再召開，沒有的話就不要召開，就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況，因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒，我想這真的是一個滿特殊的案例，所有權人達到六百多位，這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上面……"],["葉委員元之：今天也不是六百多位的問題，今天就算是只有5位、10位，也是一樣會覺得擾民啊！"],["李次長靜慧：因為這是關係到他們的權益問題，所以我們還是希望由他們來表達意見。"],["葉委員元之：是，沒有錯，所以我的意思是你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候，你再找他來表達意見嘛！如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響，譬如專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值，對他就沒有影響，就不用找他來嘛！所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關，懂我的意思嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：應該是講因為文資法必須要……我們必須滿足民眾的權益，可是也有文資團體。之所以有人會提報，一定是認為它有文資上面的價值，這個文資價值如何透過公眾的參與討論過程去確認，如果只有專家學者，我們比較擔心的是，專家學者一旦確認它有文資價值的時候，我坦白講，在目前的法規裡面，民眾要反對就來不及，他就被限制住了。"],["葉委員元之：不是啊！你也可以說這個有文資價值，就是潛在或什麼的，或是你可以定標準，我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況。"],["李次長靜慧：這部分我們來研究看看好不好？我們來研究一下。"],["葉委員元之：一定可以排除，是你願不願意做的問題。"],["李次長靜慧：我們來研究一下如何不要擾民。"],["葉委員元之：你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受，不能什麼事情都以官僚的想法為主。"],["李次長靜慧：不會、不會，委員的提醒我們會來考慮一下怎麼處理。"],["葉委員元之：你有考慮要修法或修改施行細則嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：文資法的修法我們一直在進行當中。"],["葉委員元之：我要講的是這一條，第十四條之一啦！"],["李次長靜慧：這一條我們本來沒有打算要修，委員的這個提醒，我們再來跟各方討論一下，看有什麼樣的……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了，因為主管機關邀請專家學者場勘必須通知所有權人，這是規定在施行細則裡面，所以應該是修改施行細則就可以，你們研究一下。"],["李次長靜慧：我們來研議檢討，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，次長請回。","我們今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有萬美玲委員、謝龍介委員、林倩綺委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復之部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}}