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206.952, \"end\": 219.779, \"text\": \"而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 206.952, \"end\": 208.153, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 208.153, \"end\": 208.293, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 208.293, \"end\": 208.513, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 208.513, \"end\": 208.793, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 208.793, \"end\": 209.113, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 209.113, \"end\": 209.233, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 209.233, \"end\": 209.573, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 209.573, \"end\": 210.114, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 210.114, \"end\": 211.034, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 211.034, \"end\": 211.254, 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00:00:36,567\n主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作\n\n3\n00:00:37,708 --> 00:00:56,338\n那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦品質啦還有呢他的安全啦協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的\n\n4\n00:00:57,759 --> 00:01:16,024\n有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢\n\n5\n00:01:17,364 --> 00:01:43,436\n很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善\n\n6\n00:01:44,677 --> 00:02:05,472\n但是呢越改越不安全這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部一個是內政部國土署對他們提出來內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些\n\n7\n00:02:11,576 --> 00:02:33,271\n改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4\n\n8\n00:02:39,452 --> 00:02:49,100\n交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要\n\n9\n00:02:50,101 --> 00:03:08,148\n國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委\n\n10\n00:03:09,509 --> 00:03:25,710\n我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範\n\n11\n00:03:26,952 --> 00:03:39,779\n而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本\n\n12\n00:03:41,369 --> 00:04:06,110\n交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準\n\n13\n00:04:09,073 --> 00:04:28,269\n主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準\n\n14\n00:04:31,892 --> 00:04:56,289\n對不對那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁\n\n15\n00:04:57,762 --> 00:05:13,590\n我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車\n\n16\n00:05:15,251 --> 00:05:40,433\n同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦主委\n\n17\n00:05:44,126 --> 00:06:11,324\n地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質\n\n18\n00:06:13,045 --> 00:06:40,042\n還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公\n\n19\n00:06:41,002 --> 00:06:52,093\n我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的\n\n20\n00:06:56,078 --> 00:07:14,234\n建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方\n\n21\n00:07:15,255 --> 00:07:30,491\n我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕\n\n22\n00:07:30,951 --> 00:07:58,166\n不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛\n\n23\n00:07:58,646 --> 00:08:12,213\n或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改\n\n24\n00:08:26,561 --> 00:08:41,764\n好到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是\n\n25\n00:08:50,509 --> 00:09:12,357\n大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們\n\n26\n00:09:13,824 --> 00:09:29,259\n覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟\n\n27\n00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:52,797\n都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼產業道路走走走也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼以前五分的車走路走走走現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊\n\n28\n00:09:53,683 --> 00:10:16,201\n那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個\n\n29\n00:10:19,944 --> 00:10:36,613\n行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些\n\n30\n00:10:38,754 --> 00:10:53,725\n改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少\n\n31\n00:10:56,327 --> 00:11:17,043\n那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助\n\n32\n00:11:18,946 --> 00:11:32,612\n所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜\n\n33\n00:11:33,252 --> 00:12:00,795\n是啦是啦你也來自宜蘭縣所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢如果我們的公共工程要做得好\n\n34\n00:12:02,287 --> 00:12:25,112\n那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失\n\n35\n00:12:26,907 --> 00:12:54,513\n你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程\n\n36\n00:12:55,441 --> 00:13:12,863\n你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足\n\n37\n00:13:15,467 --> 00:13:31,174\n所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好\n\n38\n00:13:32,474 --> 00:13:58,020\n這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那\n\n39\n00:14:00,475 --> 00:14:14,229\n媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人\n\n40\n00:14:16,428 --> 00:14:29,856\n我剛剛我所知道的谷關公務段那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦因為為什麼要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛那沙町外流也沒人要去年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢再加上它的危險性相對的高風險相對的高所以呢人撈不住啦大概喔就算被分發到那裡待了三年滿可以走的一定都走人啦\n\n41\n00:14:45,236 --> 00:15:03,971\n那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了\n\n42\n00:15:06,347 --> 00:15:33,265\n基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資\n\n43\n00:15:34,721 --> 00:15:54,899\n配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員\n\n44\n00:15:55,732 --> 00:16:15,709\n對啦我是希望提供這一個點這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務\n\n45\n00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:38,778\n人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦\n\n46\n00:16:40,339 --> 00:17:01,390\n我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後\n\n47\n00:17:02,290 --> 00:17:17,770\n可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4073\t5454\t好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委委員長\n15906\t36567\t主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作\n37708\t56338\t那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的\n57759\t76024\t有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢\n77364\t103436\t很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善\n104677\t125472\t但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些\n131576\t153271\t改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4\n159452\t169100\t交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要\n170101\t188148\t國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委\n189509\t205710\t我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範\n206952\t219779\t而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本\n221369\t246110\t交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準\n249073\t268269\t主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準\n271892\t296289\t對不對 那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁\n297762\t313590\t我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車\n315251\t340433\t同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦 主委\n344126\t371324\t地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質\n373045\t400042\t還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公\n401002\t412093\t我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的\n416078\t434234\t建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方\n435255\t450491\t我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕\n450951\t478166\t不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛\n478646\t492213\t或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改\n506561\t521764\t好 到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是\n530509\t552357\t大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們\n553824\t569259\t覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟\n570040\t592797\t都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼 以前五分的車走路走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊\n593683\t616201\t那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個\n619944\t636613\t行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些\n638754\t653725\t改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少\n656327\t677043\t那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助\n678946\t692612\t所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜\n693252\t720795\t是啦 是啦 你也來自宜蘭縣 所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢 我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說 這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢 如果我們的公共工程要做得好\n722287\t745112\t那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失\n746907\t774513\t你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程\n775441\t792863\t你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足\n795467\t811174\t所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好\n812474\t838020\t這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那\n840475\t854229\t媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人\n856428\t869856\t我剛剛 我所知道的谷關公務段 那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦 因為為什麼 要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛 那沙町外流也沒人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡 待了三年滿可以走的 一定都走人啦\n885236\t903971\t那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了\n906347\t933265\t基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資\n934721\t954899\t配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員\n955732\t975709\t對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務\n976730\t998778\t人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦\n1000339\t1021390\t我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後\n1022290\t1037770\t可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中\n","txt":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委委員長\n主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作\n那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的\n有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢\n很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善\n但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些\n改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4\n交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要\n國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委\n我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範\n而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本\n交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準\n主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準\n對不對 那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁\n我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車\n同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦 主委\n地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質\n還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公\n我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的\n建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方\n我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕\n不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛\n或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改\n好 到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是\n大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們\n覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟\n都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼 以前五分的車走路走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊\n那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個\n行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些\n改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少\n那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助\n所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜\n是啦 是啦 你也來自宜蘭縣 所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢 我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說 這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢 如果我們的公共工程要做得好\n那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失\n你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程\n你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足\n所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好\n這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那\n媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人\n我剛剛 我所知道的谷關公務段 那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦 因為為什麼 要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛 那沙町外流也沒人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡 待了三年滿可以走的 一定都走人啦\n那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了\n基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資\n配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員\n對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務\n人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦\n我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後\n可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.073 --> 00:05.454\n好謝謝趙偉我們請陳清德主委請主委委員長\n\n00:15.906 --> 00:36.567\n主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作\n\n00:37.708 --> 00:56.338\n那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦品質啦還有呢他的安全啦協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的\n\n00:57.759 --> 01:16.024\n有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢\n\n01:17.364 --> 01:43.436\n很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善\n\n01:44.677 --> 02:05.472\n但是呢越改越不安全這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部一個是內政部國土署對他們提出來內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些\n\n02:11.576 --> 02:33.271\n改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4\n\n02:39.452 --> 02:49.100\n交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要\n\n02:50.101 --> 03:08.148\n國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委\n\n03:09.509 --> 03:25.710\n我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範\n\n03:26.952 --> 03:39.779\n而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本\n\n03:41.369 --> 04:06.110\n交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準\n\n04:09.073 --> 04:28.269\n主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準\n\n04:31.892 --> 04:56.289\n對不對那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁\n\n04:57.762 --> 05:13.590\n我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車\n\n05:15.251 --> 05:40.433\n同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦主委\n\n05:44.126 --> 06:11.324\n地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質\n\n06:13.045 --> 06:40.042\n還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公\n\n06:41.002 --> 06:52.093\n我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的\n\n06:56.078 --> 07:14.234\n建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方\n\n07:15.255 --> 07:30.491\n我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕\n\n07:30.951 --> 07:58.166\n不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛\n\n07:58.646 --> 08:12.213\n或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改\n\n08:26.561 --> 08:41.764\n好到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是\n\n08:50.509 --> 09:12.357\n大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們\n\n09:13.824 --> 09:29.259\n覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟\n\n09:30.040 --> 09:52.797\n都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼產業道路走走走也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼以前五分的車走路走走走現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊\n\n09:53.683 --> 10:16.201\n那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個\n\n10:19.944 --> 10:36.613\n行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些\n\n10:38.754 --> 10:53.725\n改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少\n\n10:56.327 --> 11:17.043\n那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助\n\n11:18.946 --> 11:32.612\n所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜\n\n11:33.252 --> 12:00.795\n是啦是啦你也來自宜蘭縣所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢如果我們的公共工程要做得好\n\n12:02.287 --> 12:25.112\n那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失\n\n12:26.907 --> 12:54.513\n你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程\n\n12:55.441 --> 13:12.863\n你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足\n\n13:15.467 --> 13:31.174\n所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好\n\n13:32.474 --> 13:58.020\n這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那\n\n14:00.475 --> 14:14.229\n媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人\n\n14:16.428 --> 14:29.856\n我剛剛我所知道的谷關公務段那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦因為為什麼要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛那沙町外流也沒人要去年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢再加上它的危險性相對的高風險相對的高所以呢人撈不住啦大概喔就算被分發到那裡待了三年滿可以走的一定都走人啦\n\n14:45.236 --> 15:03.971\n那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了\n\n15:06.347 --> 15:33.265\n基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資\n\n15:34.721 --> 15:54.899\n配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員\n\n15:55.732 --> 16:15.709\n對啦我是希望提供這一個點這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務\n\n16:16.730 --> 16:38.778\n人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦\n\n16:40.339 --> 17:01.390\n我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後\n\n17:02.290 --> 17:17.770\n可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.073,"end":5.454,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委委員長"},{"start":15.906,"end":36.567,"text":"主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作"},{"start":37.708,"end":56.338,"text":"那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的"},{"start":57.759,"end":76.024,"text":"有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢"},{"start":77.364,"end":103.436,"text":"很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善"},{"start":104.677,"end":125.472,"text":"但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些"},{"start":131.576,"end":153.271,"text":"改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4"},{"start":159.452,"end":169.1,"text":"交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要"},{"start":170.101,"end":188.148,"text":"國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委"},{"start":189.509,"end":205.71,"text":"我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範"},{"start":206.952,"end":219.779,"text":"而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本"},{"start":221.369,"end":246.11,"text":"交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準"},{"start":249.073,"end":268.269,"text":"主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準"},{"start":271.892,"end":296.289,"text":"對不對 那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁"},{"start":297.762,"end":313.59,"text":"我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車"},{"start":315.251,"end":340.433,"text":"同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":344.126,"end":371.324,"text":"地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質"},{"start":373.045,"end":400.042,"text":"還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公"},{"start":401.002,"end":412.093,"text":"我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的"},{"start":416.078,"end":434.234,"text":"建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方"},{"start":435.255,"end":450.491,"text":"我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕"},{"start":450.951,"end":478.166,"text":"不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛"},{"start":478.646,"end":492.213,"text":"或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改"},{"start":506.561,"end":521.764,"text":"好 到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是"},{"start":530.509,"end":552.357,"text":"大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們"},{"start":553.824,"end":569.259,"text":"覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟"},{"start":570.04,"end":592.797,"text":"都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼 以前五分的車走路走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊"},{"start":593.683,"end":616.201,"text":"那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個"},{"start":619.944,"end":636.613,"text":"行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些"},{"start":638.754,"end":653.725,"text":"改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少"},{"start":656.327,"end":677.043,"text":"那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助"},{"start":678.946,"end":692.612,"text":"所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜"},{"start":693.252,"end":720.795,"text":"是啦 是啦 你也來自宜蘭縣 所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢 我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說 這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢 如果我們的公共工程要做得好"},{"start":722.287,"end":745.112,"text":"那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失"},{"start":746.907,"end":774.513,"text":"你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程"},{"start":775.441,"end":792.863,"text":"你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足"},{"start":795.467,"end":811.174,"text":"所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好"},{"start":812.474,"end":838.02,"text":"這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那"},{"start":840.475,"end":854.229,"text":"媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人"},{"start":856.428,"end":869.856,"text":"我剛剛 我所知道的谷關公務段 那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦 因為為什麼 要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛 那沙町外流也沒人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡 待了三年滿可以走的 一定都走人啦"},{"start":885.236,"end":903.971,"text":"那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了"},{"start":906.347,"end":933.265,"text":"基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資"},{"start":934.721,"end":954.899,"text":"配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員"},{"start":955.732,"end":975.709,"text":"對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務"},{"start":976.73,"end":998.778,"text":"人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦"},{"start":1000.339,"end":1021.39,"text":"我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後"},{"start":1022.29,"end":1037.77,"text":"可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時38分）謝謝召委，請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：主委早、召委早。我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設最重要的一環，尤其在現在，我看到你也曾經在行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候，在臉書上說接著要持續改善道安，對不對？大家要跨部會一起來合作，為什麼今天要特別就這一件事情來詢問主委？是因為公共工程委員會轄管全臺灣各大大小小的公共工程，不管是督導、品質，還有安全及協調等等，當然還有一個原則性管理。我最近在地方基層走動，很多議員在表示，媒體也曾經報導過，現在各縣市在針對易肇事路口進行改善，中央有補助，地方也有自籌款，同時在進行，不過很多人會有一個疑問，會不會越改越不安全？這個媒體是寫，議員指出有24個路口越改越不安全，事故反增逾六成，認為要重新檢討。主委，我們希望改善交通安全，所以我們大力的投注資源、預算要來改善，但是越改越不安全，請問主委是否知道這個問題出在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前改善的項目都是交通部相關的……"],["何委員欣純：一個是交通部，一個是內政部國土署。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，內政部跟交通部提出來的，都應該有經過專業的評估啦！不過有時候有些改善的確不能達到預期的效果，比方說大家都對庇護島都有一些意見，但在易肇事路段或相關設施的改善，大家都很努力，各鄉鎮公所都在進行了，這部分中央也寬列預算，交通部應該有一個四年……"],["何委員欣純：主委，應該這樣講，交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算，我們大力的支持要改善，這個方向是對的，但是國人期待是要越改越好，當然這中間我們國人自己的交通安全、駕駛的習慣、觀念等等也要跟著要改變，但是我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環，我接下來就要告訴主委，我發現到幾個問題，也許不是公共工程委員會的問題，但是我覺得跨部會是不是可以溝通、協調？我們所有的公共工程在設計之初、規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範，而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定，但是現行在政府體制內的道路工程規範起碼就有三個版本，交通部公路局有公路局的版本，內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本，我們現在又有一個統一道路標準，交通部又有一個改版的規劃指引。在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範，不同的道路設計有不同的施工標準及審認標準，主委，這件事你應該也知道啦？"],["陳主任委員金德：的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關。"],["何委員欣純：每一個目的事業主管機關都告訴我，他們都有所謂的專業的人士，不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論，所以訂了這些技術標準。那這個技師還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境，或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口？我覺得公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點，來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為？","我們認為道路要改善，第一個要提升行人安全，還有在道路上的人車，車子還包含汽車、大型車，還有自行車、機車，這些車輛同時在道路行駛的時候，道路的改善、交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求、人民的需求，但是我們現在不是只有設計規範不一樣而已，是連地方政府在做這個計畫送給中央審的時候都有不同的審查標準，主委，標準不一樣該怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：地方政府可能有分都市計畫內的，或者是屬交通部管的，它分屬各直屬的目的機關去申請。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以我現在就要跟主委來談，公共工程委員會針對不同的標準、不同的計畫審查、不同的施工、不同的執行，你們雖然是有督導之責，還有要去管它的品質、相關專業證照的設計、規範、監工等等，因為今天在審技師法，剛剛很多委員都在談技師，那麼這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡？專業人士嘛！學者專家嘛！公共工程委員會有相關技師的人才庫或者是學者專家的人才庫，供中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌、來聘任，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的名單是屬於採購評選的專家學者，不過剛才委員的建議很好，我們會請交通部和內政部，甚至其他的機關，共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準，有沒有共通性的地方或差異性的地方，我們可以做一個……"],["何委員欣純：或者因地制宜的地方。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，我們會……"],["何委員欣純：我們剛剛看到臺中市的路口改善，我們補助了那麼多經費、投資了那麼多錢在做路口改善，但是讓國人感受不到，而且民眾認為越改越糟糕？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，車禍或者是嚴重的車禍，有時候除了道路之外，跟交通的管理也有關係。"],["何委員欣純：交通管理又是另外一件事，當然地方政府要去負起責任，它的交通管理措施該怎麼做，但是我們現在只能就公共工程委員會裡面，對於硬體設施、土木工程怎麼樣來要求，或是希望怎麼樣來做。第一個，道路計畫審查標準，你知道嗎？我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說，第一次送來的時候，評審委員說可能還要再修改，我又回去修了，第二次送來換了不同的評審委員，第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好，還有什麼、什麼要改，改了之後再送第三次，第三次的評審委員、審查委員又不一樣了，這個計畫因為審查的過程修修改改，每一次要求的都不一樣，可以改6、7次以上，問題出在哪裡？如果是越改越好那很好啊！但是問題是大家不知道有沒有越改越好，因為不同的審查委員看的重點不一樣，所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣。現行對於路口改善或者交通公共工程的這些相關安全改善，我們覺得標準到底是什麼，還有我剛剛提到的，以臺中市來講，臺中市有都市計畫區，原臺中市是全區都是都市計畫區，原臺中縣有非都和都內，不同的道路系統又有既成道路，又有傳統的鄉村道路變成市區道路，鄉村的路叫產業道路，然後走走走也會變成市區道路，還有以前五分車走的路，走到現在已經沒有五分車了，但是現在它叫做市區道路。如果是重大路口的交通安全改善到底要怎麼改，不是在臺北的審查委員看了說要調整什麼就調整什麼、要改什麼就改什麼，我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事。"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，這可能是地方政府要尋求中央政府補助的計畫，現在已經有行人交通安全設施條例，政府採購法也通過了，所以將來，第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢。第二個，根據行人交通安全設施條例，關於易肇事路口或相關道路的一些改善，本來就是地方政府的權責，所以它應該去調查、規劃、設計、施工，中央政府的內政部或交通部會看縣市政府是不是做得很好、改善得很好，必要的時候再補助，將來補助會減少。"],["何委員欣純：政委，我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部、內政部先溝通好，因為現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣，現行的程序是地方政府提出案子之後，要經過交通部和內政部的審查委員審查通過，才會予以補助。"],["陳主任委員金德：交通部和內政部……"],["何委員欣純：所以你要先溝通好，因為你的高度夠，我希望交通安全、這些設施、標誌、標線等等，這些路口改善要做得好、要安全。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以有的要因地制宜。"],["何委員欣純：是啦！因為你來自宜蘭縣，所以你也知道有些該有因地制宜的狀況，有些又是一定要要求的標準，但是我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性，或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性，我覺得這個就是我們政府單位要做的。也許你會說這不是公共工程委員會的事，但是公共工程要做得好，這些細節是不是能夠去盤點、瞭解清楚，能夠跨部會大家來協調看看，這是我提出來給主委、給政委的一個建議。第二個，為什麼會有這些差異性？包括剛剛有很多委員提到現在技師以及土木工程人員人才的流失，你去問一下，我相信公共工程委員會也知道，不管上到中央，下到地方政府，所有公務體系在辦理公共工程的土木技師、土木相關的承辦人員永遠都缺。","我舉一個例子，我每年都要上梨山去關心農民，去看看山上的交通還有水保工程，你知道交通部公路局的谷關工務段永遠在找人，每年都有人要離開，土木相關的公務人員永遠不足。所以我必須要提醒主委，人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進，不管是安全也好、品質也好、永續也好，方方面面，人是最重要的，我相信你在行政院、在總統那邊也都說得上話，我們要如何去解決相關的人員問題？我提供你幾個數字，因為我的時間不夠了，媒體也都曾經講過，全臺灣公務人員近年來離職率增加，尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯，我剛剛講的是谷關工務段，媒體報導是地方政府的相關工程處，在過去每年大概有20個人報到，但是最近這三年，每年報到數只有3人，平均離職率都高達19人。我所知道的谷關工務段是其中一個單位，那也是很辛苦的單位，因為它要進到谷關，管的是梨山台8線，它在山的最尾巴，所以沒有人要去，年輕人也待不住，而且再加上危險性相對地高，風險相對地高，所以人都留不住，就算被分發到那裡待了三年，期滿可以走的都一定走人。我們能夠用什麼樣的方式增加誘因來留住這些技師、土木工程人才？主委，這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，在外面的公司做事，薪水比公務機關高多了。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們要增加其他什麼誘因？"],["陳主任委員金德：基本上，能夠考進公務機關的土木高考大概都會有技師執照，所以他有技師執照在外面也可以受聘，工作的薪水也高。"],["何委員欣純：是，這我們都理解。"],["陳主任委員金德：公務機關不但是普遍低薪，縣市政府、鄉鎮公所的職等又低。"],["何委員欣純：我們要怎麼樣增加誘因？這個誘因除了薪資方面之外，我們有什麼其他的誘因？"],["陳主任委員金德：所以職等的部分，事實上，地方政府有些職等配置應該有機會能夠提升，高職等的員額能夠增加，這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程公務員。"],["何委員欣純：我希望提供這一個點，這是我看到、我的憂心，不是只有我說的谷關工務段，或者是地方政府的新工處等等，你去調查一下，從中央到地方政府，只要是跟土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務人員離職率都普遍的高，流動性也高。所以流動性高的話，對於公共工程的品質，或者是對於公共工程設計的相關處理經驗的傳承，都是問題，我想這也是公共工程委員會的職責，你們要好好去盤點，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們跟考試院已經開過三次的會議了，我們會針對偏鄉，跟大學合作來設置營建管理或土木人才的在地培訓，讓在地的比方說比較東部的，經過在地培訓取得執照之後，可以留在當地服務或在當地的機關做事，至少留得住，不然，有的地方的確高考及格之後連報到都不會去報到，這的確是一個很嚴重的問題，這個我們也知道，我們正在進行檢討中。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席（何委員欣純代）：接下來質詢的是許智傑召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}}