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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 811.658, \"end\": 811.958, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 811.958, \"end\": 812.078, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 812.078, \"end\": 812.218, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"演\", \"start\": 812.218, \"end\": 812.478, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"繹\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 812.478, \"end\": 812.498, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,310\n來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防\n\n2\n00:00:28,015 --> 00:00:52,128\n還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定\n\n3\n00:00:53,229 --> 00:01:11,014\n看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣\n\n4\n00:01:13,447 --> 00:01:35,139\n立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料\n\n5\n00:01:36,147 --> 00:01:50,836\n使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料\n\n6\n00:01:52,237 --> 00:02:12,687\n科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像\n\n7\n00:02:14,988 --> 00:02:33,494\n檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊\n\n8\n00:02:35,555 --> 00:02:35,915\n教育部長\n\n9\n00:02:53,621 --> 00:03:09,074\n我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎\n\n10\n00:03:15,413 --> 00:03:42,913\n那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有\n\n11\n00:03:44,863 --> 00:03:45,807\n講清楚說明白嗎\n\n12\n00:03:55,304 --> 00:04:14,118\n我們在第八條有明訂那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用\n\n13\n00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:42,174\n那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據CheckpointResearch的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊\n\n14\n00:04:45,197 --> 00:05:04,797\n2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得\n\n15\n00:05:06,807 --> 00:05:24,517\n會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情\n\n16\n00:05:26,858 --> 00:05:44,900\n跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心\n\n17\n00:05:47,202 --> 00:06:07,465\n那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑\n\n18\n00:06:08,185 --> 00:06:33,570\n並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍\n\n19\n00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:42,298\n你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題\n\n20\n00:06:55,819 --> 00:07:19,867\n所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理\n\n21\n00:07:22,305 --> 00:07:50,359\n這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查他都同樣某一個大學的可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格這個我們這些人來做對我說他都同樣是這個學校的可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分當然我們\n\n22\n00:07:51,118 --> 00:07:51,579\n因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請\n\n23\n00:08:00,201 --> 00:08:19,393\n可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內\n\n24\n00:08:21,954 --> 00:08:33,083\n都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎\n\n25\n00:08:37,886 --> 00:09:01,114\n醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來\n\n26\n00:09:02,677 --> 00:09:23,789\n沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益\n\n27\n00:09:25,270 --> 00:09:39,580\n歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金\n\n28\n00:09:41,041 --> 00:10:03,166\n有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格\n\n29\n00:10:04,646 --> 00:10:30,358\n產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過\n\n30\n00:10:32,375 --> 00:10:49,526\n包括資金的經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到\n\n31\n00:10:51,207 --> 00:11:14,810\n幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是\n\n32\n00:11:15,811 --> 00:11:39,523\n因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的\n\n33\n00:11:42,921 --> 00:12:08,827\n補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數\n\n34\n00:12:11,974 --> 00:12:27,631\n也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候\n\n35\n00:12:27,891 --> 00:12:45,831\n他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串\n\n36\n00:12:46,431 --> 00:13:01,376\n串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛\n\n37\n00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:26,836\n但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話\n\n38\n00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:32,498\n我覺得要有被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上謝謝應該是這樣謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1310\t來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防\n28015\t52128\t還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定\n53229\t71014\t看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣\n73447\t95139\t立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料\n96147\t110836\t使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料\n112237\t132687\t科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像\n134988\t153494\t檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊\n155555\t155915\t教育部長\n173621\t189074\t我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎\n195413\t222913\t那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有\n224863\t225807\t講清楚說明白嗎\n235304\t254118\t我們在第八條有明訂 那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用\n257116\t282174\t那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據Checkpoint Research的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊\n285197\t304797\t2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得\n306807\t324517\t會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情\n326858\t344900\t跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心\n347202\t367465\t那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑\n368185\t393570\t並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍\n394910\t402298\t你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題\n415819\t439867\t所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理\n442305\t470359\t這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分 我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們\n471118\t471579\t因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請\n480201\t499393\t可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內\n501954\t513083\t都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎\n517886\t541114\t醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來\n542677\t563789\t沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益\n565270\t579580\t歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金\n581041\t603166\t有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格\n604646\t630358\t產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過\n632375\t649526\t包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到\n651207\t674810\t幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是\n675811\t699523\t因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的\n702921\t728827\t補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數\n731974\t747631\t也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候\n747891\t765831\t他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串\n766431\t781376\t串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛\n782116\t806836\t但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話\n807335\t812498\t我覺得要有 被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防\n還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定\n看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣\n立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料\n使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料\n科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像\n檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊\n教育部長\n我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎\n那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有\n講清楚說明白嗎\n我們在第八條有明訂 那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用\n那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據Checkpoint Research的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊\n2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得\n會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情\n跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心\n那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑\n並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍\n你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題\n所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理\n這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分 我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們\n因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請\n可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內\n都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎\n醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來\n沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益\n歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金\n有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格\n產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過\n包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到\n幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是\n因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的\n補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數\n也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候\n他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串\n串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛\n但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話\n我覺得要有 被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.310\n來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防\n\n00:28.015 --> 00:52.128\n還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定\n\n00:53.229 --> 01:11.014\n看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣\n\n01:13.447 --> 01:35.139\n立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料\n\n01:36.147 --> 01:50.836\n使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料\n\n01:52.237 --> 02:12.687\n科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像\n\n02:14.988 --> 02:33.494\n檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊\n\n02:35.555 --> 02:35.915\n教育部長\n\n02:53.621 --> 03:09.074\n我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎\n\n03:15.413 --> 03:42.913\n那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有\n\n03:44.863 --> 03:45.807\n講清楚說明白嗎\n\n03:55.304 --> 04:14.118\n我們在第八條有明訂那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用\n\n04:17.116 --> 04:42.174\n那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據CheckpointResearch的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊\n\n04:45.197 --> 05:04.797\n2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得\n\n05:06.807 --> 05:24.517\n會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情\n\n05:26.858 --> 05:44.900\n跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心\n\n05:47.202 --> 06:07.465\n那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑\n\n06:08.185 --> 06:33.570\n並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍\n\n06:34.910 --> 06:42.298\n你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題\n\n06:55.819 --> 07:19.867\n所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理\n\n07:22.305 --> 07:50.359\n這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查他都同樣某一個大學的可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格這個我們這些人來做對我說他都同樣是這個學校的可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分當然我們\n\n07:51.118 --> 07:51.579\n因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請\n\n08:00.201 --> 08:19.393\n可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內\n\n08:21.954 --> 08:33.083\n都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎\n\n08:37.886 --> 09:01.114\n醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來\n\n09:02.677 --> 09:23.789\n沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益\n\n09:25.270 --> 09:39.580\n歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金\n\n09:41.041 --> 10:03.166\n有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格\n\n10:04.646 --> 10:30.358\n產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過\n\n10:32.375 --> 10:49.526\n包括資金的經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到\n\n10:51.207 --> 11:14.810\n幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是\n\n11:15.811 --> 11:39.523\n因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的\n\n11:42.921 --> 12:08.827\n補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數\n\n12:11.974 --> 12:27.631\n也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候\n\n12:27.891 --> 12:45.831\n他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串\n\n12:46.431 --> 13:01.376\n串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛\n\n13:02.116 --> 13:26.836\n但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話\n\n13:27.335 --> 13:32.498\n我覺得要有被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上謝謝應該是這樣謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.31,"text":"來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防"},{"start":28.015,"end":52.128,"text":"還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定"},{"start":53.229,"end":71.014,"text":"看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣"},{"start":73.447,"end":95.139,"text":"立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料"},{"start":96.147,"end":110.836,"text":"使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料"},{"start":112.237,"end":132.687,"text":"科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像"},{"start":134.988,"end":153.494,"text":"檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊"},{"start":155.555,"end":155.915,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":173.621,"end":189.074,"text":"我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎"},{"start":195.413,"end":222.913,"text":"那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有"},{"start":224.863,"end":225.807,"text":"講清楚說明白嗎"},{"start":235.304,"end":254.118,"text":"我們在第八條有明訂 那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用"},{"start":257.116,"end":282.174,"text":"那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據Checkpoint Research的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊"},{"start":285.197,"end":304.797,"text":"2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得"},{"start":306.807,"end":324.517,"text":"會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情"},{"start":326.858,"end":344.9,"text":"跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心"},{"start":347.202,"end":367.465,"text":"那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":368.185,"end":393.57,"text":"並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍"},{"start":394.91,"end":402.298,"text":"你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題"},{"start":415.819,"end":439.867,"text":"所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理"},{"start":442.305,"end":470.359,"text":"這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分 我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們"},{"start":471.118,"end":471.579,"text":"因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請"},{"start":480.201,"end":499.393,"text":"可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內"},{"start":501.954,"end":513.083,"text":"都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎"},{"start":517.886,"end":541.114,"text":"醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來"},{"start":542.677,"end":563.789,"text":"沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益"},{"start":565.27,"end":579.58,"text":"歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金"},{"start":581.041,"end":603.166,"text":"有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格"},{"start":604.646,"end":630.358,"text":"產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過"},{"start":632.375,"end":649.526,"text":"包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到"},{"start":651.207,"end":674.81,"text":"幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是"},{"start":675.811,"end":699.523,"text":"因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的"},{"start":702.921,"end":728.827,"text":"補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數"},{"start":731.974,"end":747.631,"text":"也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候"},{"start":747.891,"end":765.831,"text":"他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串"},{"start":766.431,"end":781.376,"text":"串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛"},{"start":782.116,"end":806.836,"text":"但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話"},{"start":807.335,"end":812.498,"text":"我覺得要有 被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時41分）麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。民國111年憲判字第13號判決已經指出，現行健保資料基於醫療、衛生或犯罪預防，還有國家公共利益之目的使用，且資料要經過去識別化，所以事實上是合憲的。至於欠缺個資保護的獨立監督、欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制，以及欠缺當事人得請求停止利用之相關規定，看起來事實上是違憲的，而且要在3年內，也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強，這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在。","部長，依據公務機關依法行政的習慣，在立法之前，資料申請許可上勢必相對保守，因為沒有人負得起責任，可是一旦通過立法，則意味開放，因此立法必須要謹慎，尤其在保護制度上，據憲判字第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第六條第一項第四款去識別化的規定，本席認為，健保資料的使用必須以國家公共利益目的原則為基礎，並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則，這個部長應該同意吧？"],["邱部長泰源：同意。"],["林委員月琴：現行有衛福部衛生福利資料科學中心跟健保署資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用，衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌登資料的申請，可串聯其他系統，1年300件；健保署資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像、檢驗檢查資料，特定範圍的非結構性資料比較新，1年23件；臺灣是個學術研究發達的國家，這樣的數量並不多，預估通過後數量就會加倍。所以想問部長，學術研究的定義很廣泛，可是實際上健保資料應該是不容易申請的，請問過去提出申請的單位多為學校、醫學中心，未來你預計開放的對象有哪些？"],["邱部長泰源：我想開放的對象跟現在相同，因為這是國內法，所以要限制國內的機關……"],["林委員月琴：所以一樣嗎？必須是學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎？本席想得到一個確切的答案。"],["邱部長泰源：醫院跟學術研究系統。"],["林委員月琴：這兩個嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益，因為特定的政策所提出的研究較容易認定，與政策沒有直接關係的研究案，你們的審查標準是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是要對醫藥的發展、公共衛生……我們在第六條已經有明定它的目的。"],["林委員月琴：有講清楚、說明白嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請署長？"],["林委員月琴：來，麻煩署長。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們在第八條有明定，申請特定目的外利用健保資料，限以提升醫療品質、公共衛生、社會福利及促進學術研究發展為主，其他就是由各主管機關及行政單位本於其法定職掌或法律權責來使用。"],["林委員月琴：好，健保資料庫對於犯罪者，尤其是中國來講，就是一個臺灣人健康狀況的大數據，透過人員或線上無所不用其極地想要獲取。根據Check Point Research的統計，2024年我們政府機關的部會資料或企業資料，每週遭受3,993次網路攻擊，2025年增加到每週4,152次。部長，立法前，中國私下透過收買人員或網路攻擊來獲取資料；立法後，如果沒有好好規劃，將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得，會不會變成這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們在立法之前從各方面，不管是資訊的保護，都已經非常地嚴格在推展，這部分我相信比以前會……這跟立法應該是另外一回事，本來就應該要做好的事情。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員補充，我們現在所有的資料利用，要在特定指定的空間，它是一個隔離的環境，所能攜出的只有統計之後的結果資料，所以所有個資或原始資料是不可能攜出。"],["林委員月琴：所以未來也是這樣？"],["石署長崇良：對，也是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心？本席於第九條，針對於特定目的外利用健保資料的申請人，設立機構必須要有境內登記，並且境外不得同時設立或有正式、非正式分支機構的禁制規定，違反者要處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑，並得科處3,000萬以下罰金，目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止，而衛福部的回應是主張用道德勸說，加上輕度處罰的方式來避免資料濫用，法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥，可是看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭砲打恐龍，你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果？是天真還是規避責任？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，剛剛有特別提到，所能攜出的資料只有統計之後的結果，所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題。"],["林委員月琴：到底未來能不能完全確保這樣的狀態？因為我們有些國內學校，在中國也有設立學校，如果事實上對方是該地學校的人來這邊，他以國內的學校名義來取資料，進入到你們的系統，你怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：這個分兩方面來報告……"],["林委員月琴：你怎麼去審查？他同樣是某一個大學的人，可是事實上是在中國……"],["邱部長泰源：資訊侵入這個部分，我想我們會做最好的防範，以目前的作法是一定要到一個隔離的空間，查出來的資料是完全去識別化，只是結果而已，這是非常地嚴格，我們這些年來做……"],["林委員月琴：他同樣是這所學校的人，可是他是在對岸……"],["邱部長泰源：學校是不是跟對岸有關這個部分，當然我們大家可以來……因為這是國內法，只有國內的學校機關可以申請。"],["林委員月琴：可是它也是在國內有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：至於要核……有國內的學校跟其他境外的學校有合作……"],["林委員月琴：我覺得這麼重要的法案，你們書面報告竟然問A答B，不要用國內法的理由來推托，因為所有資料可能都是……你是要循國內……都是自國內法的一個程序洩漏到國外的，也不要用機關、學校來推托，因為你們的草案未來申請者，很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：還有醫院……"],["石署長崇良：醫療機構，就是醫院跟學術研究單位等。"],["林委員月琴：從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席提案的回應看起來，本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理講得非常隱晦，這樣的態度等於注定未來沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制，因為在以國家公共利益目的為使用的原則底下，仍然會有學術產生的利益，這項利益只要歸政府所有，便屬於公共的收入，不需要再建立回饋金的制度，把錢自政府的左手轉到右手，但是如果利益歸屬於醫學中心、學校、研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有，未來會不會有企業是透過學術單位來做一些對藥的研究？雖然要繳回回饋金，但這有什麼需要閃躲的？所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下，事實上你們是用申請的當下，而是在未來因為這個資料而研發出商品之後，所以本席提出自申請日起15年內，產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制，這並不是阻礙申請審查的資格、產品的研發，你們的報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應，所以請問一下，申請時如何預見利益？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，今天一個研究者，不管是在學術機構或醫療機構，因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫，現在是非常嚴格的，第一個，必須是本身機構的IRB一定要通過，包括資金的經費……當然你申請……"],["林委員月琴：可是我取得健康資料，如果要研發藥劑呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然IRB就是說……"],["林委員月琴：可是你是用現在來計算，並不是預見未來的利益。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有很多把關，好幾度的把關幾乎才會動到健保的資料……"],["林委員月琴：可是面對這種不可預見的在學術成功後所產生的利益，你憑什麼要收取回饋金？事實上要收的看起來有點像是一開始的手續費，可是未來後邊的利益，你到底有沒有計算進去？"],["邱部長泰源：未來利益回饋的部分，我們有做初步的說明，因為它牽涉到比較複雜，第十五條的規定有關回饋金之一定比率、方式跟其他相關事項的辦法，由主管機關定之。"],["林委員月琴：最後……"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，他真的申請到可以去那邊拿資料，那已經是經過學校、申請補助的機關都嚴格的審查，而且拿到的比例很少，所以這已經都是精煉過的，在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關，基本上我們系統也鎖得非常嚴密，所以我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全。"],["林委員月琴：好，最後想問，你們所提供的資料，雖然依法都去識別化，可是你們能保證針對人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人，其資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身分嗎？你們未來怎麼去保證？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們還是以最小揭露為主，我們提供相關資料供研究的時候，在他們來申請的時候，我們會看他的研究目的跟所要申請的使用資料之間的比例原則，所以以最小提供單位為主。第二個，還是要提到，我們出示的都是假名化後的資料，如果需要串接資料的話，都是事先處理好之後再提供，不會有原始資料的洩漏，所以都只有他在現場統計完之後，把統計結果攜出而已。"],["林委員月琴：罕病就是人數比較少嘛，所以還是希望……"],["石署長崇良：但是還是需要有一些……比如有一些罕病用藥，你要知道它的效果怎麼樣、特性怎麼樣，還是會用到，不過都是以最小使用範圍，然後最高度的……"],["林委員月琴：在這邊我還是要強調，一個是事前同意、一個是進行中告知、一個是進行中最後他要退出的話，我覺得被保險人應該要有這樣的權利，以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，應該是這樣，我們會這樣來研議，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的詢答。","接下來請陳菁徽委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}