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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 772.217, \"end\": 772.257, \"score\": 0.415}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 772.257, \"end\": 772.277, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,174 --> 00:00:11,188\n邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好\n\n2\n00:00:19,843 --> 00:00:42,113\n根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定\n\n3\n00:00:43,837 --> 00:01:02,649\n那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講\n\n4\n00:01:09,075 --> 00:01:24,275\n我說憲法憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個\n\n5\n00:01:25,496 --> 00:01:49,314\n曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯\n\n6\n00:01:53,305 --> 00:02:08,827\n當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出\n\n7\n00:02:10,650 --> 00:02:29,525\n不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎\n\n8\n00:02:31,686 --> 00:02:55,936\n所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以\n\n9\n00:02:56,816 --> 00:03:04,179\n申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申\n\n10\n00:03:26,605 --> 00:03:41,651\n這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論\n\n11\n00:03:45,373 --> 00:04:06,251\n我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:08,499 --> 00:04:27,612\n政府當然有它政策上的需要對如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民\n\n13\n00:04:28,993 --> 00:04:48,718\n推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個\n\n14\n00:04:49,838 --> 00:05:03,765\n全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎對吧\n\n15\n00:05:06,169 --> 00:05:25,365\n成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好這個署長要不要回應一下\n\n16\n00:05:26,045 --> 00:05:50,643\n跟委員報告這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料\n\n17\n00:05:51,303 --> 00:06:19,248\n做目的外使用的時候的一些規範制定政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對它是全國性的\n\n18\n00:06:21,261 --> 00:06:41,903\n如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議\n\n19\n00:06:44,085 --> 00:07:04,824\n好那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道也要讓人民能夠選擇\n\n20\n00:07:06,545 --> 00:07:29,844\n因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎\n\n21\n00:07:32,421 --> 00:07:50,572\n我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是\n\n22\n00:07:53,598 --> 00:08:21,178\n我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去\n\n23\n00:08:21,858 --> 00:08:48,443\n跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好\n\n24\n00:08:52,403 --> 00:09:20,432\n那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付\n\n25\n00:09:21,593 --> 00:09:44,999\n新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把\n\n26\n00:09:45,899 --> 00:10:09,592\n食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期\n\n27\n00:10:13,094 --> 00:10:28,319\n那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一\n\n28\n00:10:29,199 --> 00:10:44,719\n這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長\n\n29\n00:10:45,620 --> 00:11:02,414\n那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁\n\n30\n00:11:07,938 --> 00:11:25,375\n我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎\n\n31\n00:11:28,489 --> 00:11:45,257\n詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況\n\n32\n00:11:46,357 --> 00:12:09,804\n是跟委員報告其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢然後又摸了書真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定他首先我們會給予他限期改正對因為你這個你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是是誰該罰是誰來罰怎麼罰\n\n33\n00:12:12,365 --> 00:12:32,957\n包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇\n\n34\n00:12:33,897 --> 00:12:52,277\n那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝薛委員好謝謝邱委員的好發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n174\t11188\t邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好\n19843\t42113\t根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定\n43837\t62649\t那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講\n69075\t84275\t我說憲法 憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個\n85496\t109314\t曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯\n113305\t128827\t當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出\n130650\t149525\t不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎\n151686\t175936\t所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以\n176816\t184179\t申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申\n206605\t221651\t這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論\n225373\t246251\t我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對\n248499\t267612\t政府當然有它政策上的需要對 如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民\n268993\t288718\t推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個\n289838\t303765\t全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧\n306169\t325365\t成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下\n326045\t350643\t跟委員報告 這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料\n351303\t379248\t做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的\n381261\t401903\t如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議\n404085\t424824\t好 那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道 也要讓人民能夠選擇\n426545\t449844\t因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎\n452421\t470572\t我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是\n473598\t501178\t我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去\n501858\t528443\t跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好\n532403\t560432\t那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付\n561593\t584999\t新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把\n585899\t609592\t食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期\n613094\t628319\t那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一\n629199\t644719\t這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長\n645620\t662414\t那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁\n667938\t685375\t我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎\n688489\t705257\t詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況\n706357\t729804\t是 跟委員報告 其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則 但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢 然後又摸了書 真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定 他首先我們會給予他限期改正對 因為你這個 你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是 是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰\n732365\t752957\t包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇\n753897\t772277\t那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝 薛委員好 謝謝邱委員的好發言\n","txt":"邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好\n根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定\n那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講\n我說憲法 憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個\n曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯\n當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出\n不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎\n所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以\n申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申\n這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論\n我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對\n政府當然有它政策上的需要對 如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民\n推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個\n全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧\n成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下\n跟委員報告 這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料\n做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的\n如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議\n好 那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道 也要讓人民能夠選擇\n因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎\n我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是\n我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去\n跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好\n那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付\n新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把\n食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期\n那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一\n這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長\n那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁\n我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎\n詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況\n是 跟委員報告 其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則 但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢 然後又摸了書 真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定 他首先我們會給予他限期改正對 因為你這個 你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是 是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰\n包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇\n那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝 薛委員好 謝謝邱委員的好發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.174 --> 00:11.188\n邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好\n\n00:19.843 --> 00:42.113\n根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定\n\n00:43.837 --> 01:02.649\n那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講\n\n01:09.075 --> 01:24.275\n我說憲法憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個\n\n01:25.496 --> 01:49.314\n曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯\n\n01:53.305 --> 02:08.827\n當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出\n\n02:10.650 --> 02:29.525\n不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎\n\n02:31.686 --> 02:55.936\n所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以\n\n02:56.816 --> 03:04.179\n申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申\n\n03:26.605 --> 03:41.651\n這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論\n\n03:45.373 --> 04:06.251\n我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對\n\n04:08.499 --> 04:27.612\n政府當然有它政策上的需要對如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民\n\n04:28.993 --> 04:48.718\n推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個\n\n04:49.838 --> 05:03.765\n全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎對吧\n\n05:06.169 --> 05:25.365\n成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好這個署長要不要回應一下\n\n05:26.045 --> 05:50.643\n跟委員報告這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料\n\n05:51.303 --> 06:19.248\n做目的外使用的時候的一些規範制定政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對它是全國性的\n\n06:21.261 --> 06:41.903\n如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議\n\n06:44.085 --> 07:04.824\n好那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道也要讓人民能夠選擇\n\n07:06.545 --> 07:29.844\n因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎\n\n07:32.421 --> 07:50.572\n我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是\n\n07:53.598 --> 08:21.178\n我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去\n\n08:21.858 --> 08:48.443\n跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好\n\n08:52.403 --> 09:20.432\n那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付\n\n09:21.593 --> 09:44.999\n新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把\n\n09:45.899 --> 10:09.592\n食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期\n\n10:13.094 --> 10:28.319\n那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一\n\n10:29.199 --> 10:44.719\n這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長\n\n10:45.620 --> 11:02.414\n那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁\n\n11:07.938 --> 11:25.375\n我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎\n\n11:28.489 --> 11:45.257\n詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況\n\n11:46.357 --> 12:09.804\n是跟委員報告其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢然後又摸了書真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定他首先我們會給予他限期改正對因為你這個你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是是誰該罰是誰來罰怎麼罰\n\n12:12.365 --> 12:32.957\n包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇\n\n12:33.897 --> 12:52.277\n那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝薛委員好謝謝邱委員的好發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.174,"end":11.188,"text":"邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好"},{"start":19.843,"end":42.113,"text":"根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定"},{"start":43.837,"end":62.649,"text":"那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講"},{"start":69.075,"end":84.275,"text":"我說憲法 憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個"},{"start":85.496,"end":109.314,"text":"曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯"},{"start":113.305,"end":128.827,"text":"當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出"},{"start":130.65,"end":149.525,"text":"不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎"},{"start":151.686,"end":175.936,"text":"所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以"},{"start":176.816,"end":184.179,"text":"申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申"},{"start":206.605,"end":221.651,"text":"這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論"},{"start":225.373,"end":246.251,"text":"我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對"},{"start":248.499,"end":267.612,"text":"政府當然有它政策上的需要對 如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民"},{"start":268.993,"end":288.718,"text":"推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個"},{"start":289.838,"end":303.765,"text":"全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧"},{"start":306.169,"end":325.365,"text":"成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下"},{"start":326.045,"end":350.643,"text":"跟委員報告 這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料"},{"start":351.303,"end":379.248,"text":"做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的"},{"start":381.261,"end":401.903,"text":"如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議"},{"start":404.085,"end":424.824,"text":"好 那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道 也要讓人民能夠選擇"},{"start":426.545,"end":449.844,"text":"因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎"},{"start":452.421,"end":470.572,"text":"我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是"},{"start":473.598,"end":501.178,"text":"我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去"},{"start":501.858,"end":528.443,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好"},{"start":532.403,"end":560.432,"text":"那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付"},{"start":561.593,"end":584.999,"text":"新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把"},{"start":585.899,"end":609.592,"text":"食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期"},{"start":613.094,"end":628.319,"text":"那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一"},{"start":629.199,"end":644.719,"text":"這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長"},{"start":645.62,"end":662.414,"text":"那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁"},{"start":667.938,"end":685.375,"text":"我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎"},{"start":688.489,"end":705.257,"text":"詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況"},{"start":706.357,"end":729.804,"text":"是 跟委員報告 其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則 但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢 然後又摸了書 真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定 他首先我們會給予他限期改正對 因為你這個 你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是 是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰"},{"start":732.365,"end":752.957,"text":"包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇"},{"start":753.897,"end":772.277,"text":"那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝 薛委員好 謝謝邱委員的好發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時46分）主席好。我們請邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。根據2022年憲法法庭做出的憲判字第13號判決，針對健保資料使用明白指出3個違憲問題，第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制，第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障，第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定。憲判字第13號的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保資料的資訊自主權，也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用，對吧？部長對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，剛剛石署長跟我講話，可以再……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是說憲判字第13號核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保資料的資訊自主權，也就是人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我今天以一個曾經看過病、打針、住院使用健保的病人立場，問最簡單、直接的問題，這雖然是保護資料的新法，但這部新法上路之後，我可以做什麼？我的權利在哪裡？我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用、怎麼用、用了幾次？這個有通知機制嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是有退出權，就是我……"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼退出？"],["邱部長泰源：可以用書面退出，所以這個法通過之後，我們預計有所謂的冷凍期，讓大家要退出的退出，不退出的話，就當成說使用……"],["邱委員鎮軍：退出之後就永久退出？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，過去這些年來我們在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的，研究者要到一個房間裡面去……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我的意思是他退出之後就永久退出了，是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個我們可以……我們可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以在之前就要申請嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：目前的設計是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是在實施之前可以申請，或者是說實施之後申請，他申請之後就完全退出？"],["邱部長泰源：法律公告以後就有冷凍期，這時候我們會讓全民來申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：冷凍期過後，如果要退出呢？"],["邱部長泰源：隨時可以退出。"],["邱委員鎮軍：隨時可以退出？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：行文就可以？"],["邱部長泰源：申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看第十九條發現有立了3個例外，即為了防疫、為了國安，還有依其他法律，這3個條件在草案裡並沒有明確定義，講得很模糊，什麼叫做國安？國安的範圍在哪裡？防疫又是是依照哪一個法律？"],["邱部長泰源：這是例外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是健康大數據？還是跟美國交換資料？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有衝突到這個，或者是覺得這個算不算維護國家安全，或算不算免除人民生命，這個會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個很籠統啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這個會在諮議會，我們有一個諮議會去討論……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望這個東西要講清楚，這涉及人民的……"],["邱部長泰源：一定不會隨便，如果有模糊、矛盾，一定會到諮議會去討論，諮議會組成是非常完整的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為如果沒有法律條文，沒有細節，也沒有邊界的話，這些例外會變成政府想要用資料的萬用開關，想用就用，但不能你們說了算，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：政府當然有它政策上的需要以及這樣的目的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個條例不能無限上綱，否則退出權就是假的。"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果只是這個規定，而沒有做規範，那只是給憲法法庭交代而已，不是為人民負責。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是為了人民的個資權利。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得全民健康保險資料管理，當然你們做這個推動，本意上是對的，我沒有說是錯的，但是我們更期待你們把事情做得更嚴謹，畢竟這包含了個人的隱私。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：憲判字第13號指出全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫，要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制，請問你們設立的健保資料諮議會，這個是在衛福部下設的，對不對？成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導，由行政機關直接主控，就算有人權代表，但不知道你們的占比如何？你覺得這樣的監督機制獨立性在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這個石署長要不要回應一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這是兩個層次，一個是外部的獨立監督機制，現在有國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置，是對所有個人資料，當然包含健保資料的監理；本條例所設的諮議會是單就健保資料做目的外使用時的一些規範、制定政策，還有一些爭議事件的審議，所以它的範圍不同。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以它不是監督單位就對了？"],["石署長崇良：監督單位還有上級監督單位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：上級監督單位是什麼？"],["石署長崇良：就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎？"],["石署長崇良：對，它是全國性的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是這樣，有到更高階層的話，我覺得那就還可以。如果是以你剛剛講的部分，等於是你們內部流程而已，根本也沒辦法做監督。"],["石署長崇良：是對這些資料使用的妥適性，還有相關規範來做審議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講，今天我們做的不管是管資料，還是面對資料時代的國家權力，當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會、預測風險、推動研究，它也必須要對人民負責，要讓人民知道，讓人民能夠選擇，也要讓他們能拒絕。","我認為這部草案在實質審查前，要補足所有退出機制的獨立性，建立個人查詢機制，還有要明確限定條例外的條件，否則這不叫做資料保護，這是資料徵用，而且還不用經過同意，我希望你們可以做到這點，可以嗎？"],["石署長崇良：進入逐條的時候，我們會逐一再詳細說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我還有看到你們有講到憲判字第13號有退出權，還有一個叫做去識別化這部分，去識別化我要在這邊講，之前2019年美國有做出研究，只要結合郵遞區域、出生年月日與性別，就能識別大概87%的美國人，這是美國人自己做的報告，我要講的意思就是說這東西可以高度復原，這部分我們可能也要考量進去。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在使用的是假名化，我們是把假名化的資料提供在指定時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析，這個資料本身申請者無法攜出跟繼續串連，他只能拿出統計結果的資料，不會衍生這樣重新串連的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們把國外的一些作法、數據拿來參考，我們做起來就會更嚴謹，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我再請教一個問題，全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員碰過錢之後不能再碰食物，不然就要罰2億的？我看亞洲、歐洲、美洲也沒人這樣罰，英國是鼓勵分工，美國是要求洗手，日本是靠職人自律，中國是靠電子支付，新加坡還會有補助改善的設備，我們臺灣在全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物，不然要罰你2億的國家，我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這個是從113年初就開始預告，也徵詢大家的意見，因為總是要把食品良好衛生往前一步，所以這樣的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們這一條法律訂下去，讓全世界看到臺灣的創意，不用補助也沒有過渡期。"],["邱部長泰源：我們都來自基層，我們很清楚小吃攤或者是攤販在處理上的確有他要特別注意的地方，所以我們的輔導期是無限期。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做無限期？那你根本就不要立這個法啊！"],["邱部長泰源：輔導到大家都能夠做好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢？那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：這個至少是一個往前走的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼不能實際一點？那就不要罰10億、20億……"],["邱部長泰源：這個不一樣，我想所謂的2億以下，那個是食安法本身……"],["邱委員鎮軍：姜至剛署長曾說過，不教而殺是不仁，但是寫了殺人的法再說不會殺，這就是虛偽嘛！他說是安心的署長，我這樣看，現在全臺最不安心的就是我們的攤商，他們未來怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：我想請攤商絕對安心，我們一定是用輔導的方式，這是大家的一個努力，因為畢竟你摸了錢又摸食物，總是不好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！當然這個東西我沒有說它不對，我沒有說規定這個不對，但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量？我這樣舉例啦，我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬，最高罰50萬，操縱股市牟利是罰5億，販賣第一級毒品最高是罰3,000萬，手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億，也就是說，小吃攤販的手比販毒的手還髒嗎？詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎？這不只是罰則設計荒唐，我覺得你們這個部分真的是要考量，這是對基層的羞辱！"],["邱部長泰源：這是食安法委員，是不是容許我請王副署長簡單跟大家回報這個情況？"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，其實食安法所謂的6萬到2億的規定，這是在食安法訂定的罰則，但是如果攤商違反GHP，就是他的手真的摸了錢，然後又摸了食物，真的被查核到，事實上，依據現在的規定，首先我們會給予他限期改正。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是這個條文沒寫清楚，未來是誰該罰？誰來罰？怎麼罰？這個標準很難論定。"],["王副署長德原：報告委員，這個是由地方政府衛生局來罰，但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準，還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局了解，這個業者是初犯，而且如果他是限期改正而不改正，就是給他期限他都不修正的話，才會有裁罰的動作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我的時間也到了，你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨、很冠冕堂皇，但是我跟你講，生活是很複雜的，我們人不是生活在條文裡面，而是生活在柴米油鹽裡面，好不好？請多寫一些比較符合人性的規定，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把它解釋清楚，我們會解釋清楚，會一直溝通，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員的發言。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}