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\"text\": \"車貸中心 我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 69.528, \"end\": 69.748, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 69.748, \"end\": 70.489, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 70.489, \"end\": 70.629, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 70.629, \"end\": 70.829, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"裕\", \"start\": 70.829, \"end\": 71.009, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 71.009, \"end\": 71.129, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 71.129, \"end\": 71.209, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 71.209, \"end\": 71.709, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 71.709, \"end\": 71.729, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 71.729, 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\"但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵 要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 818.407, \"end\": 818.747, \"score\": 0.628}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 818.747, \"end\": 818.907, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 818.907, \"end\": 819.208, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 819.208, \"end\": 819.408, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 819.408, \"end\": 820.148, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 820.148, \"end\": 821.408, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 821.408, \"end\": 821.508, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 821.508, \"end\": 821.608, \"score\": 0.545}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 821.608, \"end\": 821.828, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 821.828, \"end\": 822.469, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,939 --> 00:00:07,642\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,028 --> 00:00:41,789\n今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉\n\n3\n00:00:43,010 --> 00:01:07,427\n那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是\n\n4\n00:01:09,528 --> 00:01:15,751\n車貸中心我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署\n\n5\n00:01:39,242 --> 00:02:00,209\n委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法\n\n6\n00:02:01,246 --> 00:02:24,083\n我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了全世界了那個就好像是在說欸有一個笑話部長當你全部裸體然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡部長\n\n7\n00:02:31,718 --> 00:02:49,019\n蛤遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦\n\n8\n00:02:51,055 --> 00:03:18,237\n那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所\n\n9\n00:03:19,939 --> 00:03:21,800\n然後他看什麼診勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方這個地點這個幾樓我看到一個男生我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦\n\n10\n00:03:36,168 --> 00:03:47,743\n這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個\n\n11\n00:03:52,367 --> 00:04:16,352\n還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點\n\n12\n00:04:19,631 --> 00:04:40,255\n但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子\n\n13\n00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:58,232\n那行政院我們看行政院的版本因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了就是說\n\n14\n00:05:04,944 --> 00:05:25,066\n雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資健保個資依法有據然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許\n\n15\n00:05:27,228 --> 00:05:48,169\n但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後\n\n16\n00:05:49,570 --> 00:05:52,112\n我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是\n\n17\n00:06:06,363 --> 00:06:09,586\n缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃\n\n18\n00:06:26,580 --> 00:06:38,609\n然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有\n\n19\n00:06:42,392 --> 00:06:57,521\n他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止\n\n20\n00:07:01,164 --> 00:07:21,586\n那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦\n\n21\n00:07:23,185 --> 00:07:27,167\n但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要\n\n22\n00:07:51,758 --> 00:07:55,243\n請求讓我們退出這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持\n\n23\n00:07:58,946 --> 00:08:10,693\n你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃\n\n24\n00:08:27,964 --> 00:08:52,381\n用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法\n\n25\n00:08:53,629 --> 00:09:15,194\n我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦我在跟你講憲法判制\n\n26\n00:09:16,814 --> 00:09:29,797\n第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出\n\n27\n00:09:37,988 --> 00:09:49,751\n他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個\n\n28\n00:10:07,216 --> 00:10:14,901\n個人資料利用囉那讓大家可以看得到看得到當事人才會說我想要去停止被利用\n\n29\n00:10:17,138 --> 00:10:33,350\n這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊\n\n30\n00:10:46,096 --> 00:11:06,746\n這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸\n\n31\n00:11:07,666 --> 00:11:22,498\n我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款\n\n32\n00:11:23,715 --> 00:11:33,850\n看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的\n\n33\n00:11:39,878 --> 00:12:00,891\n你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理\n\n34\n00:12:04,873 --> 00:12:28,225\n第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢\n\n35\n00:12:33,027 --> 00:12:42,558\n自己核准自己機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧\n\n36\n00:12:46,318 --> 00:13:03,112\n這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢\n\n37\n00:13:03,868 --> 00:13:05,911\n但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權\n\n38\n00:13:22,373 --> 00:13:27,638\n這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會\n\n39\n00:13:38,407 --> 00:13:55,714\n但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有\n\n40\n00:14:03,049 --> 00:14:19,994\n有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦\n\n41\n00:14:26,331 --> 00:14:41,210\n主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗\n\n42\n00:14:43,052 --> 00:14:57,367\n以這個英國為例他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人你們的條文是寫人民\n\n43\n00:15:06,044 --> 00:15:08,247\n所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅\n\n44\n00:15:21,306 --> 00:15:24,408\n是不是真的存在這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告\n\n45\n00:15:44,741 --> 00:15:52,788\n到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害\n\n46\n00:16:08,122 --> 00:16:17,534\n這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出\n\n47\n00:16:26,789 --> 00:16:28,991\n要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的\n\n48\n00:16:43,484 --> 00:16:54,716\n那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說\n\n49\n00:17:05,507 --> 00:17:22,700\n因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要\n\n50\n00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:52,740\n利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理\n\n51\n00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:08,255\n你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求\n\n52\n00:18:12,179 --> 00:18:33,211\n你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究\n\n53\n00:18:34,572 --> 00:18:43,861\n與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔\n\n54\n00:18:45,011 --> 00:19:08,267\n沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由\n\n55\n00:19:15,652 --> 00:19:40,271\n所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以\n\n56\n00:19:41,621 --> 00:19:58,693\n那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備\n\n57\n00:20:05,458 --> 00:20:18,824\n要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供\n\n58\n00:20:20,322 --> 00:20:26,645\n然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個\n\n59\n00:20:40,851 --> 00:20:52,825\n這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在\n\n60\n00:20:58,151 --> 00:21:05,377\n來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來\n\n61\n00:21:24,372 --> 00:21:52,930\n要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要\n\n62\n00:21:54,775 --> 00:22:20,094\n你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題\n\n63\n00:22:21,575 --> 00:22:45,820\n包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢\n\n64\n00:22:47,150 --> 00:23:14,310\n不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障\n\n65\n00:23:15,211 --> 00:23:27,603\n對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過\n\n66\n00:23:38,294 --> 00:24:02,521\n然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊\n\n67\n00:24:05,933 --> 00:24:25,679\n包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的\n\n68\n00:24:31,121 --> 00:24:34,102\n所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商\n\n69\n00:24:58,049 --> 00:25:24,520\n嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便\n\n70\n00:25:27,999 --> 00:25:56,228\n這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好謝謝\n\n71\n00:25:58,457 --> 00:25:59,483\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3939\t7642\t好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長\n15028\t41789\t今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉\n43010\t67427\t那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是\n69528\t75751\t車貸中心 我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署\n99242\t120209\t委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法\n121246\t144083\t我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了 全世界了那個就好像是在說欸 有一個笑話 部長當你全部裸體 然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候 然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡 部長\n151718\t169019\t蛤 遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦\n171055\t198237\t那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所\n199939\t201800\t然後他看什麼診 勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方 這個地點 這個幾樓我看到一個男生 我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦\n216168\t227743\t這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個\n232367\t256352\t還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點\n259631\t280255\t但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子\n285436\t298232\t那行政院 我們看行政院的版本 因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有 月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面 我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了 就是說\n304944\t325066\t雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資 健保個資依法有據 然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許\n327228\t348169\t但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後\n349570\t352112\t我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是\n366363\t369586\t缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃\n386580\t398609\t然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有\n402392\t417521\t他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止\n421164\t441586\t那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦\n443185\t447167\t但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要\n471758\t475243\t請求讓我們退出 這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持\n478946\t490693\t你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃\n507964\t532381\t用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法\n533629\t555194\t我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦 我在跟你講憲法判制\n556814\t569797\t第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出\n577988\t589751\t他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個\n607216\t614901\t個人資料利用囉 那讓大家可以看得到 看得到當事人才會說 我想要去停止被利用\n617138\t633350\t這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們 叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是 平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干 你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道 他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊\n646096\t666746\t這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸\n667666\t682498\t我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔 OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款\n683715\t693850\t看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的\n699878\t720891\t你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理\n724873\t748225\t第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢\n753027\t762558\t自己核准自己 機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算 自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧\n766318\t783112\t這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢\n783868\t785911\t但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權\n802373\t807638\t這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會\n818407\t835714\t但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵 要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有\n843049\t859994\t有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦\n866331\t881210\t主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗\n883052\t897367\t以這個英國為例 他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人 你們的條文是寫人民\n906044\t908247\t所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅\n921306\t924408\t是不是真的存在 這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面 英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告\n944741\t952788\t到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害\n968122\t977534\t這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出\n986789\t988991\t要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的\n1003484\t1014716\t那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說\n1025507\t1042700\t因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要\n1043440\t1072740\t利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理\n1073480\t1088255\t你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求\n1092179\t1113211\t你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究\n1114572\t1123861\t與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好 講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔\n1125011\t1148267\t沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由\n1155652\t1180271\t所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以\n1181621\t1198693\t那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備\n1205458\t1218824\t要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的 我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供\n1220322\t1226645\t然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個\n1240851\t1252825\t這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在\n1258151\t1265377\t來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來\n1284372\t1312930\t要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要\n1314775\t1340094\t你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題\n1341575\t1365820\t包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢\n1367150\t1394310\t不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障\n1395211\t1407603\t對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過\n1418294\t1442521\t然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊\n1445933\t1465679\t包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的\n1471121\t1474102\t所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許 暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商\n1498049\t1524520\t嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便\n1527999\t1556228\t這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好 謝謝\n1558457\t1559483\t謝謝林淑芬委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長\n今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉\n那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是\n車貸中心 我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署\n委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法\n我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了 全世界了那個就好像是在說欸 有一個笑話 部長當你全部裸體 然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候 然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡 部長\n蛤 遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦\n那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所\n然後他看什麼診 勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方 這個地點 這個幾樓我看到一個男生 我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦\n這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個\n還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點\n但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子\n那行政院 我們看行政院的版本 因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有 月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面 我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了 就是說\n雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資 健保個資依法有據 然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許\n但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後\n我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是\n缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃\n然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有\n他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止\n那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦\n但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要\n請求讓我們退出 這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持\n你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃\n用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法\n我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦 我在跟你講憲法判制\n第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出\n他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個\n個人資料利用囉 那讓大家可以看得到 看得到當事人才會說 我想要去停止被利用\n這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們 叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是 平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干 你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道 他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊\n這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸\n我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔 OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款\n看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的\n你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理\n第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢\n自己核准自己 機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算 自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧\n這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢\n但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權\n這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會\n但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵 要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有\n有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦\n主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗\n以這個英國為例 他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人 你們的條文是寫人民\n所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅\n是不是真的存在 這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面 英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告\n到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害\n這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出\n要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的\n那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說\n因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要\n利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理\n你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求\n你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究\n與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好 講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔\n沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由\n所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以\n那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備\n要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的 我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供\n然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個\n這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在\n來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來\n要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要\n你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題\n包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢\n不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障\n對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過\n然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊\n包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的\n所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許 暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商\n嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便\n這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好 謝謝\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.939 --> 00:07.642\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長\n\n00:15.028 --> 00:41.789\n今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉\n\n00:43.010 --> 01:07.427\n那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是\n\n01:09.528 --> 01:15.751\n車貸中心我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署\n\n01:39.242 --> 02:00.209\n委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法\n\n02:01.246 --> 02:24.083\n我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了全世界了那個就好像是在說欸有一個笑話部長當你全部裸體然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡部長\n\n02:31.718 --> 02:49.019\n蛤遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦\n\n02:51.055 --> 03:18.237\n那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所\n\n03:19.939 --> 03:21.800\n然後他看什麼診勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方這個地點這個幾樓我看到一個男生我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦\n\n03:36.168 --> 03:47.743\n這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個\n\n03:52.367 --> 04:16.352\n還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點\n\n04:19.631 --> 04:40.255\n但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子\n\n04:45.436 --> 04:58.232\n那行政院我們看行政院的版本因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了就是說\n\n05:04.944 --> 05:25.066\n雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資健保個資依法有據然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許\n\n05:27.228 --> 05:48.169\n但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後\n\n05:49.570 --> 05:52.112\n我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是\n\n06:06.363 --> 06:09.586\n缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃\n\n06:26.580 --> 06:38.609\n然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有\n\n06:42.392 --> 06:57.521\n他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止\n\n07:01.164 --> 07:21.586\n那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦\n\n07:23.185 --> 07:27.167\n但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要\n\n07:51.758 --> 07:55.243\n請求讓我們退出這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持\n\n07:58.946 --> 08:10.693\n你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃\n\n08:27.964 --> 08:52.381\n用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法\n\n08:53.629 --> 09:15.194\n我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦我在跟你講憲法判制\n\n09:16.814 --> 09:29.797\n第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出\n\n09:37.988 --> 09:49.751\n他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個\n\n10:07.216 --> 10:14.901\n個人資料利用囉那讓大家可以看得到看得到當事人才會說我想要去停止被利用\n\n10:17.138 --> 10:33.350\n這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊\n\n10:46.096 --> 11:06.746\n這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸\n\n11:07.666 --> 11:22.498\n我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款\n\n11:23.715 --> 11:33.850\n看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的\n\n11:39.878 --> 12:00.891\n你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理\n\n12:04.873 --> 12:28.225\n第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢\n\n12:33.027 --> 12:42.558\n自己核准自己機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧\n\n12:46.318 --> 13:03.112\n這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢\n\n13:03.868 --> 13:05.911\n但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權\n\n13:22.373 --> 13:27.638\n這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會\n\n13:38.407 --> 13:55.714\n但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有\n\n14:03.049 --> 14:19.994\n有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦\n\n14:26.331 --> 14:41.210\n主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗\n\n14:43.052 --> 14:57.367\n以這個英國為例他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人你們的條文是寫人民\n\n15:06.044 --> 15:08.247\n所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅\n\n15:21.306 --> 15:24.408\n是不是真的存在這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告\n\n15:44.741 --> 15:52.788\n到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害\n\n16:08.122 --> 16:17.534\n這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出\n\n16:26.789 --> 16:28.991\n要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的\n\n16:43.484 --> 16:54.716\n那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說\n\n17:05.507 --> 17:22.700\n因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要\n\n17:23.440 --> 17:52.740\n利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理\n\n17:53.480 --> 18:08.255\n你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求\n\n18:12.179 --> 18:33.211\n你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究\n\n18:34.572 --> 18:43.861\n與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔\n\n18:45.011 --> 19:08.267\n沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由\n\n19:15.652 --> 19:40.271\n所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以\n\n19:41.621 --> 19:58.693\n那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備\n\n20:05.458 --> 20:18.824\n要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供\n\n20:20.322 --> 20:26.645\n然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個\n\n20:40.851 --> 20:52.825\n這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在\n\n20:58.151 --> 21:05.377\n來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來\n\n21:24.372 --> 21:52.930\n要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要\n\n21:54.775 --> 22:20.094\n你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題\n\n22:21.575 --> 22:45.820\n包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢\n\n22:47.150 --> 23:14.310\n不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障\n\n23:15.211 --> 23:27.603\n對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過\n\n23:38.294 --> 24:02.521\n然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊\n\n24:05.933 --> 24:25.679\n包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的\n\n24:31.121 --> 24:34.102\n所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商\n\n24:58.049 --> 25:24.520\n嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便\n\n25:27.999 --> 25:56.228\n這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好謝謝\n\n25:58.457 --> 25:59.483\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.939,"end":7.642,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長"},{"start":15.028,"end":41.789,"text":"今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉"},{"start":43.01,"end":67.427,"text":"那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是"},{"start":69.528,"end":75.751,"text":"車貸中心 我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署"},{"start":99.242,"end":120.209,"text":"委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法"},{"start":121.246,"end":144.083,"text":"我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了 全世界了那個就好像是在說欸 有一個笑話 部長當你全部裸體 然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候 然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡 部長"},{"start":151.718,"end":169.019,"text":"蛤 遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦"},{"start":171.055,"end":198.237,"text":"那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所"},{"start":199.939,"end":201.8,"text":"然後他看什麼診 勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方 這個地點 這個幾樓我看到一個男生 我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦"},{"start":216.168,"end":227.743,"text":"這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個"},{"start":232.367,"end":256.352,"text":"還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點"},{"start":259.631,"end":280.255,"text":"但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子"},{"start":285.436,"end":298.232,"text":"那行政院 我們看行政院的版本 因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有 月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面 我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了 就是說"},{"start":304.944,"end":325.066,"text":"雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資 健保個資依法有據 然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許"},{"start":327.228,"end":348.169,"text":"但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後"},{"start":349.57,"end":352.112,"text":"我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是"},{"start":366.363,"end":369.586,"text":"缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃"},{"start":386.58,"end":398.609,"text":"然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有"},{"start":402.392,"end":417.521,"text":"他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止"},{"start":421.164,"end":441.586,"text":"那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦"},{"start":443.185,"end":447.167,"text":"但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要"},{"start":471.758,"end":475.243,"text":"請求讓我們退出 這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持"},{"start":478.946,"end":490.693,"text":"你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃"},{"start":507.964,"end":532.381,"text":"用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法"},{"start":533.629,"end":555.194,"text":"我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦 我在跟你講憲法判制"},{"start":556.814,"end":569.797,"text":"第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出"},{"start":577.988,"end":589.751,"text":"他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個"},{"start":607.216,"end":614.901,"text":"個人資料利用囉 那讓大家可以看得到 看得到當事人才會說 我想要去停止被利用"},{"start":617.138,"end":633.35,"text":"這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們 叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是 平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干 你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道 他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊"},{"start":646.096,"end":666.746,"text":"這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸"},{"start":667.666,"end":682.498,"text":"我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔 OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款"},{"start":683.715,"end":693.85,"text":"看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的"},{"start":699.878,"end":720.891,"text":"你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理"},{"start":724.873,"end":748.225,"text":"第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢"},{"start":753.027,"end":762.558,"text":"自己核准自己 機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算 自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧"},{"start":766.318,"end":783.112,"text":"這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢"},{"start":783.868,"end":785.911,"text":"但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權"},{"start":802.373,"end":807.638,"text":"這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會"},{"start":818.407,"end":835.714,"text":"但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵 要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有"},{"start":843.049,"end":859.994,"text":"有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦"},{"start":866.331,"end":881.21,"text":"主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗"},{"start":883.052,"end":897.367,"text":"以這個英國為例 他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人 你們的條文是寫人民"},{"start":906.044,"end":908.247,"text":"所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅"},{"start":921.306,"end":924.408,"text":"是不是真的存在 這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面 英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告"},{"start":944.741,"end":952.788,"text":"到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害"},{"start":968.122,"end":977.534,"text":"這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出"},{"start":986.789,"end":988.991,"text":"要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的"},{"start":1003.484,"end":1014.716,"text":"那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說"},{"start":1025.507,"end":1042.7,"text":"因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要"},{"start":1043.44,"end":1072.74,"text":"利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理"},{"start":1073.48,"end":1088.255,"text":"你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求"},{"start":1092.179,"end":1113.211,"text":"你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究"},{"start":1114.572,"end":1123.861,"text":"與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好 講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔"},{"start":1125.011,"end":1148.267,"text":"沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由"},{"start":1155.652,"end":1180.271,"text":"所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以"},{"start":1181.621,"end":1198.693,"text":"那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備"},{"start":1205.458,"end":1218.824,"text":"要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的 我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供"},{"start":1220.322,"end":1226.645,"text":"然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個"},{"start":1240.851,"end":1252.825,"text":"這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在"},{"start":1258.151,"end":1265.377,"text":"來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來"},{"start":1284.372,"end":1312.93,"text":"要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要"},{"start":1314.775,"end":1340.094,"text":"你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題"},{"start":1341.575,"end":1365.82,"text":"包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢"},{"start":1367.15,"end":1394.31,"text":"不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障"},{"start":1395.211,"end":1407.603,"text":"對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過"},{"start":1418.294,"end":1442.521,"text":"然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊"},{"start":1445.933,"end":1465.679,"text":"包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的"},{"start":1471.121,"end":1474.102,"text":"所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許 暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商"},{"start":1498.049,"end":1524.52,"text":"嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便"},{"start":1527.999,"end":1556.228,"text":"這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好 謝謝"},{"start":1558.457,"end":1559.483,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時59分）謝謝主席，是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天有一個大新聞，史上最大中國40億筆個資不設防全外洩，然後驚見疑似臺灣資料庫的檔案，讓我想起了內政部戶籍資料全外洩，上至總統、副總統，下至一般的官員、老百姓，所有的戶籍資料看光光，這事發生在臺灣也是事實，只是不知道到底是誰把它外洩的。當然我們今天的健保資料利用跟這個是不相關的，但是我的意思是，光是這樣在政府手上的，而且是資訊保護強度最高的，就這樣被拿走了、看光光了，還在網路上販賣。我就想到我的個人資料其實最常被賣掉的就是車貸中心，我在裕隆辦過車貸，結果我的個資馬上就外洩，據我所知，裕隆最容易販賣個資，不曉得是誰販賣的，然後再來就是銀行，銀行貸款一定會外洩、肯定外洩。我今天就想到民國89年到104年，也不用外洩，衛福部當時是衛生署，委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構，把每一個人的個資賣光光，健保資料庫也是一樣，所以才會有今天憲法法庭的這個判決，也才會有今天的立法。我們想像不到政府認為把我們個人的名字、出生年月日拿掉了，然後就覺得這種資料可以賣給學術機關，大家都知道，賣給學術機關就等於賣給全臺灣、全世界了。部長，有一個笑話說，當你全部裸體然後被看到的時候，你要先遮哪裡？當你全身脫光光，然後被人家闖進來看到了，你優先要遮哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這個要看當時的狀況。"],["林委員淑芬：大家都知道，遮臉啦！那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像？欸！把你的臉遮起來，然後全部都被別人看到也沒關係，因為人家不知道你是誰。可是不是這樣，因為大家都知道，比如有心人士，某一個學者對某個人好奇，他做一個學術研究，知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所看什麼診，勾稽得出來欸！不是臉遮住了就看不出來，我至少知道在這個地點幾樓看到一個男生，我也勾稽得出來，遮臉沒有用啦！這是政府曾經犯過的錯誤，而且未來方法上稍微精進一點。但基本上還是有一點像，只是我們還有一些配套的機制，所以現在要討論這種配套機制到底可不可以、合不合理、這樣好不好。憲法法庭憲判字第13號的判決，第一、大家都覺得要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用；第二、要給當事人請求停止利用的權利，大家都說不管是同意權或是退出權。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但是憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究，認為這樣是合憲的，但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用，它是違反我們剛剛講的法律保留原則，也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲做出了限制。我們看行政院的版本，因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本，林月琴委員有版本，在行政院的版本裡面，我應該這樣講，雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制蒐集健保個資，依法有據，讓當事人事前行使同意，然後在符合特別重要公益和法律保留原則下，也並不是絕對不允許。但是它一直要求我們，國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除、停止利用或限制利用個資的事後控制權。所以，我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情，當事人可以請求停止利用，不想要被目的外利用，行政院的版本就透過兩個程序，不曉得是架空或者是實踐憲法法庭對要利用的要求？第一就是缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期，雖然草案說，你可以請求停止利用，但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前，要公開目的外利用的規劃，讓當事人取得、知道退出的訊息，也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道，以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前，根本連資訊都沒有，他可以有退出權，但我不會告訴你，我要利用了，所以你根本不知道，你也沒有辦法去申請退出。","在這種狀況下，很多人的健保資料可能都被利用很久了，很久以後你才知道，然後你才要去請求利用的停止。這樣會發生第二個狀況，就是你去請求利用停止的時候，之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響，意思是當你去請求不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候，之前被看光的就不算，還是要繼續被看，從你請求開始不溯及既往，只能從你請求開始，不再被人家看。所以我們的修正動議就是要求，其實在整部法施行以前，我們類似事前同意的機制須要加一個冷凍期，我們要一個完整的同意權，就是事前就必須要請求讓我們退出，這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們支持，在逐條的時候，我們再遵照委員的……"],["林委員淑芬：好，這件事情很重要。我們現在還要討論的是如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權、停止利用，然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前，公開目的外利用的規劃，和當事人得以退出的訊息，應該要能夠滿足最低的程序保障。所以，請問部長，以現在這種規劃，你會用哪種方法告訴人家說，未來冷凍期之外，別人每次來跟你申請要利用的時候，你們要怎麼樣告訴大家，有人要申請用大家的資訊了，如果有意見的話，趕快去請求退出？你們要用什麼方法？我不是講冷凍期的，我是說平時的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們目前其實已經非常非常嚴謹了，我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生、醫療、醫藥的提升，必須要有一些善用，但是過去多年來，這些人……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，我在跟你講憲判字第13號判決。"],["邱部長泰源：憲判的意思……"],["林委員淑芬：憲判是說你要給當事人請求退出利用的這一個規定，整部法律很合理，就是說……"],["邱部長泰源：可以退出，我們也支持冷凍期。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！除了冷凍期以外，他隨時可以請求退出？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["林委員淑芬：他可以隨時請求退出，那也要對這部法律有認知啊，請問他要去哪裡請求？"],["邱部長泰源：我們可能……會公告，會公告。"],["林委員淑芬：本來是要紙本申請，那你們現在架設的網頁會在哪裡？或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關要研究的、政府機關要研究的，每跟你們申請一次，要不要課責，跟你們申請的人要告訴大家，他現在要去跟健保署申請個人資料利用了，讓大家可以看得到，當事人看得到才會說，我想要去停止被利用，這個機制。"],["邱部長泰源：如果申請的，一年大概有300案，是不是每一案都要公告出去，譬如某一個機關……"],["林委員淑芬：不是叫你們，叫你們也可以啦！或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以。"],["邱部長泰源：申請的機關，譬如臺大醫院某個……"],["林委員淑芬：否則很多人其實是這樣，平常我都不知道有什麼事情，與我何干、你們要去利用跟我有什麼關係？因為你們在利用他也不知道，他什麼都不知道，他要怎麼去跟你請求要退出？他什麼都不知道啊！這是我們這種很有權利意識的人才知道的，因為我們有足夠的文化資本，所以我們知道健保的個資會被這樣子利用，所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利。可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人，他根本就什麼都不知道，什麼都不知道耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我們怎麼樣想辦法把它做好。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我們想辦法，要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意，你也隨時可以申請退出，這樣子喔！OK。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["林委員淑芬：好。那我現在還要再談的是，我們要談霸王條款，看起來好像法律保留原則、定了法律了，然後你有同意權、退出權，但是我們這裡面有一個霸王條款，就是第十九條，你們的草案裡面那三款規定的，你想要退出都不能退出喔！那我們就來檢視你第十九條的這三款，「一、其他法律、主管機關或保險人有提供之義務。二、為維護國家安全。三、為免除人民之生命、身體或財產上之急迫危險。」這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出，這個叫霸王條款。","但是我們現在就要討論這樣合理嗎？第一個，「目的外利用」的審核流於形式，人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理？我舉出幾個原因，首先，「目的外利用」，你們衛福部的機關裡面也有可能，國健署要去申請、跟你們健保署申請啊！目的外利用嘛！那你們衛福部自己機關內部申請，然後衛福部自己機關內部核准，然後呢？自己核准自己，機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定，都是你們自己說了算，自己申請自己核准，人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧？"],["邱部長泰源：所有的行政部門還是要依法規來……"],["林委員淑芬：人家會認為都是你們自己跟自己申請，自己核准啦！特別是你們內部……"],["邱部長泰源：這個都有規定。"],["林委員淑芬：你們內部申請，自己申請目的外利用的機會可能還比別人大哩！但是如果浮濫，你們的把關機制不完全的話，它會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障。整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的個資自主權，他要有事後控制權，這個東西是很重要的。但如果你的把關機制都是你們自己球員兼裁判、太鬆散，人家會認為你這種的可以嗎？雖然你們有健保資料的諮議會，那裡面有規定成員組成，所以你們成員組成就是關鍵，要把關嘛！要把關，人家講這個學術利用到底合不合理，所以組成是誰、組成的比例、把關得嚴不嚴謹，就看你們諮議會了。而你們這個把關的諮議會，我們也是有意見的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們這個可以來討論，讓它更周全。"],["林委員淑芬：好，另外，你為了維護國家安全，或者是為免除人民之生命、身體或財產上之急迫危險，這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔！在這種狀況裡面，大家會懷疑，譬如主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告，法制上如果用這樣子的國家安全為由、為了保護人民生命或財產安全，然後就公告說你們都不准退出。但是依照外國的經驗，以英國為例，他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需，他允許例外地限制當事人的事後控制權，但是是講當事人。你們的條文是寫「人民」，到底你們保護的對象，當事人現在變成人民，以人民為由，所以你沒有針對所欲免除的人民之生命，這個安全威脅是不是真的存在、這個危險是不是具急迫性，那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做？所以這個也是容易浮濫。在這種狀況裡面，英國是說應該要課責以正當程序，對於特定事態的認定和公告，到底是不是真的有國家安全的疑慮？到底是不是真的有人民之生命、身體或財產權的威脅？你對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課責的基礎，而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民、免除人民受到危害，這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的權利，讓當事人所謂的事後控制權就沒了。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["林委員淑芬：我的意思，這樣你聽得懂嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：聽懂。"],["林委員淑芬：不是你一句話說這個基於什麼，你們全部都不可以退出。是不是要設計一個把關的機制？用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護，真的是人民之生命或財產權、身體的安全受到威脅？這個就是很重要的。","而最核心的，第三個就是用其他法律請求機關提供，作為限制你不能退出、大家都沒有退出權的依據。這個規定學者認為混淆了請求和義務權限的分別，倘若因為其他法律，可以依照其他法律，然後就要來請求了，其他法律到底是什麼法律，其他法律你定得清楚嗎？其他法律，依據的這個法律，當初立法的時候有界定了這個法律要利用的目的，限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容，而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面，課責於健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務，而賦予請求的機關或第三人強制蒐集我們健保資料的權限，則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎，這樣講還有道理。你的法律寫得清清楚楚，你的法律有規定這個為什麼必須要這樣做、為什麼人民都有義務，為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供，你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了，才能夠到我們這裡來請求，不能說你的法律什麼都沒講你就要請求。","如果你們這種法律，譬如舉你們自己的癌症防治法就好了，癌症防治法裡面規定，國家應提供充分資料，致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作，講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供，個人都沒有退出權喔？沒有耶！你們這麼空泛，沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段，一般學術上就說，我用癌症防治法當免死金牌、霸王條款，請求你們全部都要提供、大家都不能退出，然後空泛地用我為了要建立癌症資料庫，作為當事人失了控制權、剝奪掉的最好理由。整個手段工具、踐行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他，這樣子是不行的。","所以在行政院版本的草案裡面，籠統地依其他法律請求機關提供，用「其他法律」，任何一部法律都可以，這會大開任意限制當事人退出權的方便之門。過去在立法上我們這些立委，對於提供義務和蒐集權限，在操作上你必須細緻，然後你蒐集的法制程序要完備，正本清源地在他們的「其他法律」裡面要規範清楚，而不是便宜行事，說自己怎樣怎樣，然後就要請求健保署全部提供，這樣就規避掉法律保留原則的拘束，也剝奪掉當事人的同意權。這個憲判裡面最核心的兩點就以「其他法律」這麼籠統和空泛地全部把它剝奪掉了，所以這幾個字就免除了所有的……等於是霸王條款當中的最霸王啦！這樣不行！所以，「其他法律」講的是什麼？我們要界定清楚！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們在第十條有清楚的敘述和規定。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！我們現在建議要限縮在第十條第一項規定的才可以啦！這是我們現在討論、我們認為可能比較限縮、嚴謹一點的啦！你不可以用「其他法律」4個字就來全部請求走，不行啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們用第十條……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我們有修正版本，要限縮，不可以照你們行政院的版本。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再參酌修正版。"],["林委員淑芬：最後一個就是以「特別重要公益目的」為名，你們現在是說只有學術研究和機關研究可以來申請資料，可是你們硬是在後面又講說，「產生產業利益者，應提撥一定比率回饋金，納入全民健康保險基金。」所以你們到底是要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要？你們明的是說，只允許政府機關和學術研究機構等等去做研究，暗的是說：如果不小心有商業利潤產出，要繳回饋金。到底是怎樣？","大家都知道，醫藥界都一樣，而且是全世界都一樣，產業界常將包含產學合作在內的各種商業導向之研究課題，包裝成特別重要的公益性學術研究。事實上，學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上，也免除不了要商業利用。如果你們不要在這裡扭扭捏捏地「假仙」，說我們沒有要讓他們商業利用，可是條文裡面又寫，如果做商業利用要交錢，這樣不如考慮對商業利用做更嚴謹的把關，設定的資格要更嚴謹，不能浮濫，而且要好好地納管。既然你們一個繳納回饋金的機制，顯然你們是允許它再利用的，那為什麼不光明正大地把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障？對不對？你讓我們資訊自主的保障措施規範得更嚴謹，對它的重要公益性把關得更嚴謹，大方地接受人民檢驗，不要遮遮掩掩而放鬆了！因為是一般學術研究，就很寬鬆地讓它通過，然後再偷偷拿去做商業利用，這樣反而不利於人民權利的保障，也不利於對健保資料庫是否被浮濫使用予以把關，事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的健全發展。所以在這種狀況裡面……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我簡單回報一下，因為在所有的研究裡面，其實臨床試驗也是一種研究，你去看各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢，癌症病人很需要臨床試驗，這其實能夠幫……"],["林委員淑芬：這跟我講的有什麼相關？"],["邱部長泰源：臨床試驗裡面後續就有……"],["林委員淑芬：這跟我講的有什麼相關？"],["邱部長泰源：後續就可能產生商業的、衍生成後續的……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以我就叫你們納管啊！"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們現在提的這個法很周全，等於是……"],["林委員淑芬：我就在講納管啊！你們現在明的是不允許，暗的是允許它啊！"],["邱部長泰源：可是它如果嚴謹……"],["林委員淑芬：允許它暗的！你明的是寬鬆地把關學術研究，然後……"],["邱部長泰源：所有的研究都有可能會造成國家的發展啊！"],["林委員淑芬：你允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去做商業利用，那為什麼不讓這些廠商嚴謹地做商業利用，然後嚴格地把關，讓人民有這個退出權和資訊權，然後讓它的學術研究更嚴謹？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們贊成可以來說清楚，沒關係。"],["林委員淑芬：那我再問你，你們現在觸及率最大的app是因為疫情而使用的健保快易通，對不對？那我們來講退出權，你們有沒有可能在健保快易通這個app上面建置一個退出權的機制，這樣比較方便？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請健保署來說明。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，因為我們健保的app是綁人……"],["林委員淑芬：對！"],["石署長崇良：所以剛剛委員說的方向是可以研議，但是代理的部分可能……因為我們現在那個app，未成年的app是可以由他的監護人代理查詢，那個代理的部分是不是也從app就可以使用，還是需要書面……"],["林委員淑芬：所以原則上你們是同意建置在裡面？"],["石署長崇良：可以朝這個方向。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}