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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,602 --> 00:00:29,794\n就是有請部長有請邱部長部長辛苦了那今天就針對我們原住民的那個知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下那你知道原建法一直在我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會兩年公布兩年了112年的6月21號\n\n2\n00:00:32,495 --> 00:01:01,468\n那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來\n\n3\n00:01:02,148 --> 00:01:24,840\n我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體\n\n4\n00:01:26,181 --> 00:01:41,067\n後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個\n\n5\n00:01:42,895 --> 00:02:11,414\n那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美泰雅布農盧凱排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準所以這次我有提了三個修正案\n\n6\n00:02:12,134 --> 00:02:33,761\n可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有園民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民\n\n7\n00:02:34,261 --> 00:02:58,678\n民主為目的的應該取得原子民主同意之外呢應該有中央原子民委員會會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原子民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少\n\n8\n00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:28,740\n知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費其實不是它是一個所謂的它不是被強迫的希望是這個民主能夠自己決定的所以我想\n\n9\n00:03:30,242 --> 00:03:40,021\n這個FPIC有一個最主要的原則就是希望這是個民主自覺所以這個部分應該在我們在之前同意的時候應該納入的最重要的概念因為我們常常會\n\n10\n00:03:42,796 --> 00:04:12,056\n沒有一個文化的概念的時候會不自主的會陷入那個偏見那其實我最常見的看到的一些錯誤是什麼呢你在做決定的時候常常就是說會把原住民主當作是一個他只是一個參與者他並不是一個所謂的決定者所以這個部分要去規避第二個就是說真正在做結論的時候常常是政府在做決定可是並不是原住民自己本身所以這個部分應該也要把它納入進去\n\n11\n00:04:12,896 --> 00:04:32,726\n然後呢在現在我們在做一些健康政策的議題的時候原住民常常都是只是被告知而不是所謂的參與所以我又回到前面那個也就是說我們我們沒有一個專責機構的時候我會覺得部長你會疲於奔命我們我們的官員也會很辛苦在做這個部分\n\n12\n00:04:33,306 --> 00:05:00,314\n因為他根本就不理解所謂的文化的細膩在哪裡那所以常常在講說inform的時候知情同意的時候其實有兩個最主要的關鍵也就是你所使用的語言跟文化的那個導入在哪裡比如說我自己本身是排灣族陸海族的族群我要去阿美族的時候其實我會特別小心因為他是屬於母系社會我講了什麼話會發生什麼樣的錯誤那我在知情同意的時候我是要規避\n\n13\n00:05:01,494 --> 00:05:28,597\n要去規避哪些文字讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重其實這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且是很細膩的所以我希望部長這邊你可能要去上所謂的文化課程其實每次都在講文化敏感度到底文化敏感度是什麼有沒有一個所謂的平易的一個標準在哪裡所以這是我要跟你說的知情統一裡面就是要\n\n14\n00:05:29,378 --> 00:05:46,514\n使用正確的語言跟文化導入那其實最常發現過敏的是在哪裡呢就在諮商的時候比如說諮商你會認為諮商它是一個endgoal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實\n\n15\n00:05:47,355 --> 00:06:08,410\n不是其實真正的你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要你要的諮商同意知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊\n\n16\n00:06:09,170 --> 00:06:20,018\n可能都會不太一樣會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議可以嗎\n\n17\n00:06:28,971 --> 00:06:44,918\n最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是\n\n18\n00:06:46,699 --> 00:07:00,546\n我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人\n\n19\n00:07:01,406 --> 00:07:23,553\n進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難\n\n20\n00:07:24,113 --> 00:07:48,343\n然後給予協助而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說又再回到那個問題就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海沒有人去care\n\n21\n00:07:49,685 --> 00:08:11,713\n包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3602\t29794\t就是有請部長有請邱部長部長辛苦了那今天就針對我們原住民的那個知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下那你知道原建法一直在我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會兩年公布兩年了112年的6月21號\n32495\t61468\t那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來\n62148\t84840\t我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體\n86181\t101067\t後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個\n102895\t131414\t那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美 泰雅 布農 盧凱 排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準所以這次我有提了三個修正案\n132134\t153761\t可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有園民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民\n154261\t178678\t民主為目的的應該取得原子民主同意之外呢應該有中央原子民委員會會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原子民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少\n180600\t208740\t知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費 其實不是它是一個所謂的它不是被強迫的希望是這個民主能夠自己決定的所以我想\n210242\t220021\t這個FPIC有一個最主要的原則就是希望這是個民主自覺所以這個部分應該在我們在之前同意的時候應該納入的最重要的概念因為我們常常會\n222796\t252056\t沒有一個文化的概念的時候會不自主的會陷入那個偏見那其實我最常見的看到的一些錯誤是什麼呢你在做決定的時候常常就是說會把原住民主當作是一個他只是一個參與者他並不是一個所謂的決定者所以這個部分要去規避第二個就是說真正在做結論的時候常常是政府在做決定可是並不是原住民自己本身所以這個部分應該也要把它納入進去\n252896\t272726\t然後呢在現在我們在做一些健康政策的議題的時候原住民常常都是只是被告知而不是所謂的參與所以我又回到前面那個也就是說我們我們沒有一個專責機構的時候我會覺得部長你會疲於奔命我們我們的官員也會很辛苦在做這個部分\n273306\t300314\t因為他根本就不理解所謂的文化的細膩在哪裡那所以常常在講說inform的時候知情同意的時候其實有兩個最主要的關鍵也就是你所使用的語言跟文化的那個導入在哪裡比如說我自己本身是排灣族陸海族的族群我要去阿美族的時候其實我會特別小心因為他是屬於母系社會我講了什麼話會發生什麼樣的錯誤那我在知情同意的時候我是要規避\n301494\t328597\t要去規避哪些文字讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重其實這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且是很細膩的所以我希望部長這邊你可能要去上所謂的文化課程其實每次都在講文化敏感度到底文化敏感度是什麼有沒有一個所謂的平易的一個標準在哪裡所以這是我要跟你說的知情統一裡面就是要\n329378\t346514\t使用正確的語言跟文化導入那其實最常發現過敏的是在哪裡呢就在諮商的時候比如說諮商你會認為諮商它是一個end goal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實\n347355\t368410\t不是 其實真正的 你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要 你要的諮商同意 知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群 甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊\n369170\t380018\t可能都會不太一樣 會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議 可以嗎\n388971\t404918\t最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是\n406699\t420546\t我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人\n421406\t443553\t進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難\n444113\t468343\t然後給予協助 而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢 也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說 又再回到那個問題 就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候 這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海 沒有人去care\n469685\t491713\t包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請\n","txt":"就是有請部長有請邱部長部長辛苦了那今天就針對我們原住民的那個知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下那你知道原建法一直在我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會兩年公布兩年了112年的6月21號\n那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來\n我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體\n後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個\n那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美 泰雅 布農 盧凱 排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準所以這次我有提了三個修正案\n可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有園民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民\n民主為目的的應該取得原子民主同意之外呢應該有中央原子民委員會會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原子民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少\n知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費 其實不是它是一個所謂的它不是被強迫的希望是這個民主能夠自己決定的所以我想\n這個FPIC有一個最主要的原則就是希望這是個民主自覺所以這個部分應該在我們在之前同意的時候應該納入的最重要的概念因為我們常常會\n沒有一個文化的概念的時候會不自主的會陷入那個偏見那其實我最常見的看到的一些錯誤是什麼呢你在做決定的時候常常就是說會把原住民主當作是一個他只是一個參與者他並不是一個所謂的決定者所以這個部分要去規避第二個就是說真正在做結論的時候常常是政府在做決定可是並不是原住民自己本身所以這個部分應該也要把它納入進去\n然後呢在現在我們在做一些健康政策的議題的時候原住民常常都是只是被告知而不是所謂的參與所以我又回到前面那個也就是說我們我們沒有一個專責機構的時候我會覺得部長你會疲於奔命我們我們的官員也會很辛苦在做這個部分\n因為他根本就不理解所謂的文化的細膩在哪裡那所以常常在講說inform的時候知情同意的時候其實有兩個最主要的關鍵也就是你所使用的語言跟文化的那個導入在哪裡比如說我自己本身是排灣族陸海族的族群我要去阿美族的時候其實我會特別小心因為他是屬於母系社會我講了什麼話會發生什麼樣的錯誤那我在知情同意的時候我是要規避\n要去規避哪些文字讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重其實這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且是很細膩的所以我希望部長這邊你可能要去上所謂的文化課程其實每次都在講文化敏感度到底文化敏感度是什麼有沒有一個所謂的平易的一個標準在哪裡所以這是我要跟你說的知情統一裡面就是要\n使用正確的語言跟文化導入那其實最常發現過敏的是在哪裡呢就在諮商的時候比如說諮商你會認為諮商它是一個end goal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實\n不是 其實真正的 你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要 你要的諮商同意 知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群 甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊\n可能都會不太一樣 會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議 可以嗎\n最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是\n我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人\n進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難\n然後給予協助 而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢 也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說 又再回到那個問題 就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候 這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海 沒有人去care\n包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.602 --> 00:29.794\n就是有請部長有請邱部長部長辛苦了那今天就針對我們原住民的那個知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下那你知道原建法一直在我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會兩年公布兩年了112年的6月21號\n\n00:32.495 --> 01:01.468\n那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來\n\n01:02.148 --> 01:24.840\n我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體\n\n01:26.181 --> 01:41.067\n後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個\n\n01:42.895 --> 02:11.414\n那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美泰雅布農盧凱排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準所以這次我有提了三個修正案\n\n02:12.134 --> 02:33.761\n可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有園民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民\n\n02:34.261 --> 02:58.678\n民主為目的的應該取得原子民主同意之外呢應該有中央原子民委員會會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原子民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少\n\n03:00.600 --> 03:28.740\n知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費其實不是它是一個所謂的它不是被強迫的希望是這個民主能夠自己決定的所以我想\n\n03:30.242 --> 03:40.021\n這個FPIC有一個最主要的原則就是希望這是個民主自覺所以這個部分應該在我們在之前同意的時候應該納入的最重要的概念因為我們常常會\n\n03:42.796 --> 04:12.056\n沒有一個文化的概念的時候會不自主的會陷入那個偏見那其實我最常見的看到的一些錯誤是什麼呢你在做決定的時候常常就是說會把原住民主當作是一個他只是一個參與者他並不是一個所謂的決定者所以這個部分要去規避第二個就是說真正在做結論的時候常常是政府在做決定可是並不是原住民自己本身所以這個部分應該也要把它納入進去\n\n04:12.896 --> 04:32.726\n然後呢在現在我們在做一些健康政策的議題的時候原住民常常都是只是被告知而不是所謂的參與所以我又回到前面那個也就是說我們我們沒有一個專責機構的時候我會覺得部長你會疲於奔命我們我們的官員也會很辛苦在做這個部分\n\n04:33.306 --> 05:00.314\n因為他根本就不理解所謂的文化的細膩在哪裡那所以常常在講說inform的時候知情同意的時候其實有兩個最主要的關鍵也就是你所使用的語言跟文化的那個導入在哪裡比如說我自己本身是排灣族陸海族的族群我要去阿美族的時候其實我會特別小心因為他是屬於母系社會我講了什麼話會發生什麼樣的錯誤那我在知情同意的時候我是要規避\n\n05:01.494 --> 05:28.597\n要去規避哪些文字讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重其實這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且是很細膩的所以我希望部長這邊你可能要去上所謂的文化課程其實每次都在講文化敏感度到底文化敏感度是什麼有沒有一個所謂的平易的一個標準在哪裡所以這是我要跟你說的知情統一裡面就是要\n\n05:29.378 --> 05:46.514\n使用正確的語言跟文化導入那其實最常發現過敏的是在哪裡呢就在諮商的時候比如說諮商你會認為諮商它是一個endgoal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實\n\n05:47.355 --> 06:08.410\n不是其實真正的你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要你要的諮商同意知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊\n\n06:09.170 --> 06:20.018\n可能都會不太一樣會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議可以嗎\n\n06:28.971 --> 06:44.918\n最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是\n\n06:46.699 --> 07:00.546\n我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人\n\n07:01.406 --> 07:23.553\n進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難\n\n07:24.113 --> 07:48.343\n然後給予協助而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說又再回到那個問題就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海沒有人去care\n\n07:49.685 --> 08:11.713\n包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.602,"end":29.794,"text":"就是有請部長有請邱部長部長辛苦了那今天就針對我們原住民的那個知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下那你知道原建法一直在我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會兩年公布兩年了112年的6月21號"},{"start":32.495,"end":61.468,"text":"那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來"},{"start":62.148,"end":84.84,"text":"我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體"},{"start":86.181,"end":101.067,"text":"後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個"},{"start":102.895,"end":131.414,"text":"那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美 泰雅 布農 盧凱 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goal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實"},{"start":347.355,"end":368.41,"text":"不是 其實真正的 你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要 你要的諮商同意 知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群 甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊"},{"start":369.17,"end":380.018,"text":"可能都會不太一樣 會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議 可以嗎"},{"start":388.971,"end":404.918,"text":"最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是"},{"start":406.699,"end":420.546,"text":"我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人"},{"start":421.406,"end":443.553,"text":"進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":444.113,"end":468.343,"text":"然後給予協助 而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢 也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說 又再回到那個問題 就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候 這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海 沒有人去care"},{"start":469.685,"end":491.713,"text":"包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時53分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，辛苦了。今天就針對原住民知情同意的部分，再跟你多商討一下。我們知道原健法，我每次都看到你還會一直強調，而原住民健康法再過幾天就公布滿兩年了，是112年6月21號公布的，第二條第二項說要有專責單位。我們在講知情同意的時候，其實專責單位就很重要。我們常常都說我們是國與國的關係，陳水扁總統也說過，因為我們每一個種族都是一個國家，所以你到任何一個種族的時候，如果你完全不知道他們的文化，你要怎麼知情同意呢？這是一個基本的概念在這裡。為了不要讓你疲於奔命，我覺得應該要早一點有專責單位出來，我一直說希望能夠有司級以上的層級，讓「原住民健康司」……未來或許有更好的一個名詞，部長可以去想一下。針對這幾年知情同意的這些法規還沒有出來的時候，曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題，我們來review一下。2007年馬偕醫院有做一個口水的檢體，後來被認定是違反醫學倫理，2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現，不是臺灣人發現，而是加拿大的人權組織發現，高醫有販賣所謂痛風基因的專利。後來也看到一些報導，甚至國外已經有原住民的基因庫，你看有阿美、泰雅、布農、魯凱、排灣等。這些是我們都不知道的事情，國外卻已經有這些資料，所以我覺得今天這個議題，所謂知情同意的層級要拉得很高。部長，你心裡要有一些心理建設，這樣我們才有往下談的標準。","這次我提了三個修正案，可是這次的列席單位沒有原民會，如果今天沒有辦法審到，我希望我的條文可以保留，我們再行協商。針對第五條的健保資料諮議會，我希望有原住民族代表。第七條就是特定的管理辦法裡面，如果是以研究原住民民族為目的，除了應取得原住民族同意之外，應該由中央的原住民族委員會會同本條例主管機關來訂定。第十五條是產生的商業利益應該納入原住民族綜合發展基金這樣的原則，我想先知道，部長對FPIC，即所謂的知情同意，你了解多少？"],["邱部長泰源：知情同意的精神是無論在哪一個地方都應該要堅守的原則。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我們先講第一個F，就是Free。我們先講到一個基本的層面，Free常常都讓我們想起「免費」，其實不是，它不是被強迫的，希望是這個民族能夠自己決定的。我想FPIC有一個最主要的原則，就是希望這是個民族自決，所以這個部分是知情同意應該納入的最重要概念，因為沒有文化概念的時候，我們常常會不自主的陷入偏見，其實最常見的一些錯誤是什麼呢？在做決定的時候，常常會把原住民族當作只是參與者，並不是所謂的決定者，所以這個部分要去規避。","第二個、真正在做final結論的時候，常常是政府在決定，並不是原住民本身，所以這個部分應該也要把它納入。現在我們在做一些健康政策議題的時候，原住民常常都只是被告知，而不是參與，所以又回到前面，也就是沒有專責機構的時候，我覺得部長會疲於奔命，官員在做這個部分也會很辛苦，因為他根本就不理解文化的細膩在哪裡。","常常在說inform、知情同意的時候，其實有兩個最主要的關鍵，也就是所使用的語言跟文化的導入在哪裡？比如我自己是排灣族、魯凱族的族群，我去阿美族的時候，其實會特別小心，因為它是屬於母系社會，我講了什麼話可能會犯了什麼樣的錯誤？我在知情同意的時候，要規避哪些文字，避免讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重？這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且很細膩，所以我希望部長可能要去上所謂的文化課程。","每次都在講文化敏感度，到底文化敏感度是什麼？所謂的標準在哪裡？這是我要跟你說的，知情同意就是要使用正確的語言跟文化導入，最常被詬病的在哪裡呢？就是在諮商的時候，比如諮商，你會認為諮商是一個angle，它最主要是一個所謂的……大家認為只要有諮商就夠了，其實不是，你要把諮商當作是一個複雜的、文化的process，所以當你進入這樣的領域時，你才會知道你到底在諮商什麼，到底你要的諮商同意、知情同意是什麼，所以每一個族群，甚至到16個族的時候，以後的表格可能都會不太一樣，會有些微的差距。我希望部長要有一些概念，以後在處理原住民議題的時候，就會有一些基本的認識。我給部長這樣的建議，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們會注重這樣的建議。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！最後就是我之前有跟你講過，我們原住民公費生大概有一、兩百個還沒有考上醫師執照。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我之前有提過波波醫師的部分，我們會認為國家很重視波波醫師以後在臺灣執業的這些問題，但這些養成計畫的醫學生畢業以後，或者是沒有考上執照、或者是在訓練當中，可是沒有人進一步去關心他們，所以我覺得，如果現在我們的急診醫學、內科等四大科都已經是「四大皆空」的時候，其實這些曾經被國家訓練的醫生是不是應該定期比如每半年或是每幾個月，一季一季來跟他們開個座談會，看他們在考試資格取得上有遇到什麼樣的困難並給予協助？而不是一直看到你們都只有在討論波波醫師的問題，其實這些養成計畫所有各個族群的醫學系畢業學生也是需要國家的幫忙，所以又再回到那個問題，就是沒有專責機構、沒有專人在處理這些問題時，這些醫學系畢業的學生就很像漂流在大海，沒有人care。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，你提的這些養成的醫師，我們真的非常關心，如果他養成出來能夠服務的話，一般他們都會在當地服務比較久，解決……"],["盧委員縣一：是，所以這個部分我還是希望我們部長多關心。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們應該來關心，而且一定會積極去關心。"],["盧委員縣一：是、好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝盧縣一委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}