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849.758, \"end\": 864.83, \"text\": \"都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 849.758, \"end\": 849.918, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 849.918, \"end\": 850.018, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 850.018, \"end\": 850.479, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 850.479, \"end\": 850.679, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 850.679, \"end\": 850.879, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 850.879, \"end\": 851.019, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 851.019, \"end\": 851.179, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 851.179, \"end\": 851.359, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 851.359, \"end\": 851.559, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 851.559, \"end\": 851.84, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 851.84, \"end\": 851.96, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 851.96, \"end\": 852.08, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 852.08, \"end\": 852.901, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 852.901, \"end\": 853.101, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 853.101, \"end\": 853.321, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 853.321, \"end\": 853.481, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 853.481, \"end\": 853.661, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"授\", \"start\": 853.661, \"end\": 854.622, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 854.622, \"end\": 854.822, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 854.822, \"end\": 855.202, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 855.202, \"end\": 855.322, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 855.322, \"end\": 855.423, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 855.423, \"end\": 855.643, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 855.643, \"end\": 856.363, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 856.363, \"end\": 856.503, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 856.503, \"end\": 856.643, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 856.643, \"end\": 856.804, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 856.804, \"end\": 856.984, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 856.984, \"end\": 857.104, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 857.104, \"end\": 857.264, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 857.264, \"end\": 857.404, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 857.404, \"end\": 857.564, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 857.564, \"end\": 858.025, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 858.025, \"end\": 858.165, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 858.165, \"end\": 859.226, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 859.226, \"end\": 859.366, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 859.366, \"end\": 860.987, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 860.987, \"end\": 861.067, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 861.067, \"end\": 861.187, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 861.187, \"end\": 861.447, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 861.447, \"end\": 861.567, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 861.567, \"end\": 861.587, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 861.587, \"end\": 861.707, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 861.707, \"end\": 862.768, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 862.768, \"end\": 862.868, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 862.868, \"end\": 863.009, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 863.009, \"end\": 863.149, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 863.149, \"end\": 863.309, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 863.309, \"end\": 863.429, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 863.429, \"end\": 863.529, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 863.529, \"end\": 863.669, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 863.669, \"end\": 863.809, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 863.809, \"end\": 863.909, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 863.909, \"end\": 863.929, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 863.929, \"end\": 863.949, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 863.949, \"end\": 863.989, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 863.989, \"end\": 864.069, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 864.069, \"end\": 864.089, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 864.089, \"end\": 864.149, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"勝\"}, {\"word\": \"旭\", \"start\": 864.149, \"end\": 864.229, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 864.229, \"end\": 864.25, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 864.25, \"end\": 864.29, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 864.29, \"end\": 864.41, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 864.41, \"end\": 864.43, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 864.43, \"end\": 864.51, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 864.51, \"end\": 864.53, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 864.53, \"end\": 864.55, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 864.55, \"end\": 864.59, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 864.59, \"end\": 864.75, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 864.75, \"end\": 864.77, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 864.77, \"end\": 864.79, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 864.79, \"end\": 864.81, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 864.81, \"end\": 864.83, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 879.944, \"end\": 907.904, \"text\": \"所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 879.944, \"end\": 880.045, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 880.045, \"end\": 880.125, \"score\": 0.482}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 880.125, \"end\": 880.305, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 880.305, \"end\": 880.725, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 880.725, \"end\": 880.825, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 880.825, \"end\": 880.925, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 880.925, \"end\": 881.045, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"立\", 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{\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 900.098, \"end\": 900.338, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 900.338, \"end\": 900.519, \"score\": 0.488}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 900.519, \"end\": 900.679, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 900.679, \"end\": 901.139, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"陣\"}, {\"word\": \"營\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 901.139, \"end\": 901.299, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 901.299, \"end\": 901.419, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 901.419, \"end\": 901.579, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 901.579, \"end\": 901.719, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 901.719, \"end\": 901.94, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 901.94, \"end\": 902.08, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 902.08, \"end\": 903.02, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 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00:00:49,588\n六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎\n\n3\n00:00:58,388 --> 00:01:14,184\n報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到\n\n4\n00:01:16,226 --> 00:01:30,142\n呃健保來齁謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是另外還有一個是我們呃不是現在在的那個增加的稅收齁對以政府以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到\n\n5\n00:01:31,283 --> 00:01:54,646\n案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過\n\n6\n00:01:55,887 --> 00:02:12,779\n我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?\n\n7\n00:02:13,559 --> 00:02:41,838\n那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了\n\n8\n00:02:43,859 --> 00:03:05,769\n例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討\n\n9\n00:03:08,548 --> 00:03:34,194\n這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持\n\n10\n00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:56,669\n這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔\n\n11\n00:03:57,429 --> 00:04:14,782\n部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用\n\n12\n00:04:18,484 --> 00:04:46,236\n這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起\n\n13\n00:04:46,816 --> 00:05:11,098\n三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條\n\n14\n00:05:12,739 --> 00:05:33,950\n我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程\n\n15\n00:05:41,694 --> 00:05:57,384\n一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料\n\n16\n00:05:58,945 --> 00:06:26,938\n它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法\n\n17\n00:06:27,998 --> 00:06:36,391\n像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛\n\n18\n00:06:38,172 --> 00:07:03,952\n那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致\n\n19\n00:07:04,933 --> 00:07:22,959\n原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度\n\n20\n00:07:23,719 --> 00:07:49,020\n還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料\n\n21\n00:07:51,562 --> 00:08:05,628\n在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟\n\n22\n00:08:06,109 --> 00:08:26,667\n無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主\n\n23\n00:08:27,734 --> 00:08:54,701\n所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止\n\n24\n00:08:55,541 --> 00:09:19,481\n利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用\n\n25\n00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:47,156\n所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛對不對部長好謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要\n\n26\n00:09:48,536 --> 00:10:06,787\n所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會\n\n27\n00:10:08,919 --> 00:10:34,898\n來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生\n\n28\n00:10:36,579 --> 00:10:50,638\n那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個\n\n29\n00:10:53,502 --> 00:11:10,528\n我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以\n\n30\n00:11:14,589 --> 00:11:31,847\n在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好\n\n31\n00:11:32,648 --> 00:11:57,416\n可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛\n\n32\n00:12:00,157 --> 00:12:14,970\n我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色\n\n33\n00:12:15,891 --> 00:12:20,555\n其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的\n\n34\n00:12:38,451 --> 00:12:58,172\n需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?\n\n35\n00:13:00,250 --> 00:13:12,962\n好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料\n\n36\n00:13:18,005 --> 00:13:41,030\n這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題\n\n37\n00:13:44,830 --> 00:14:04,870\n另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題\n\n38\n00:14:09,758 --> 00:14:24,830\n都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個\n\n39\n00:14:39,944 --> 00:15:07,904\n所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊\n\n40\n00:15:08,584 --> 00:15:23,667\n所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊部長\n\n41\n00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:40,555\n所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望\n\n42\n00:15:42,356 --> 00:16:08,488\n也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快\n\n43\n00:16:09,975 --> 00:16:11,938\n請求停止我們一定讓人民安心\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5741\t7963\t謝謝主席 請邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對 從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始\n27159\t49588\t六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎\n58388\t74184\t報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到\n76226\t90142\t呃 健保來 齁 謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是 另外還有一個是我們呃 不是現在在的那個增加的稅收 齁 對以政府 以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到\n91283\t114646\t案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過\n115887\t132779\t我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?\n133559\t161838\t那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了\n163859\t185769\t例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討\n188548\t214194\t這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持\n217916\t236669\t這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔\n237429\t254782\t部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用\n258484\t286236\t這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起\n286816\t311098\t三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條\n312739\t333950\t我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好 這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程\n341694\t357384\t一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好 所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料\n358945\t386938\t它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法\n387998\t396391\t像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛\n398172\t423952\t那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致\n424933\t442959\t原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度\n443719\t469020\t還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料\n471562\t485628\t在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟\n486109\t506667\t無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主\n507734\t534701\t所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止\n535541\t559481\t利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用\n561160\t587156\t所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛 對不對 部長好 謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要\n588536\t606787\t所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會\n608919\t634898\t來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好 部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生\n636579\t650638\t那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子 因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個\n653502\t670528\t我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以\n674589\t691847\t在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好\n692648\t717416\t可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛\n720157\t734970\t我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色\n735891\t740555\t其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的\n758451\t778172\t需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?\n780250\t792962\t好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料\n798005\t821030\t這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好 謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題\n824830\t844870\t另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題\n849758\t864830\t都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個\n879944\t907904\t所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊\n908584\t923667\t所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊 部長\n924710\t940555\t所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望\n942356\t968488\t也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快\n969975\t971938\t請求停止我們一定讓人民安心\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對 從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始\n六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎\n報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到\n呃 健保來 齁 謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是 另外還有一個是我們呃 不是現在在的那個增加的稅收 齁 對以政府 以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到\n案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過\n我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?\n那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了\n例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討\n這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持\n這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔\n部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用\n這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起\n三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條\n我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好 這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程\n一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好 所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料\n它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法\n像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛\n那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致\n原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度\n還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料\n在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟\n無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主\n所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止\n利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用\n所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛 對不對 部長好 謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要\n所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會\n來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好 部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生\n那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子 因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個\n我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以\n在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好\n可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛\n我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色\n其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的\n需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?\n好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料\n這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好 謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題\n另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題\n都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個\n所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊\n所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊 部長\n所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望\n也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快\n請求停止我們一定讓人民安心\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.741 --> 00:07.963\n謝謝主席請邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始\n\n00:27.159 --> 00:49.588\n六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎\n\n00:58.388 --> 01:14.184\n報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到\n\n01:16.226 --> 01:30.142\n呃健保來齁謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是另外還有一個是我們呃不是現在在的那個增加的稅收齁對以政府以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到\n\n01:31.283 --> 01:54.646\n案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過\n\n01:55.887 --> 02:12.779\n我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?\n\n02:13.559 --> 02:41.838\n那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了\n\n02:43.859 --> 03:05.769\n例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討\n\n03:08.548 --> 03:34.194\n這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持\n\n03:37.916 --> 03:56.669\n這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔\n\n03:57.429 --> 04:14.782\n部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用\n\n04:18.484 --> 04:46.236\n這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起\n\n04:46.816 --> 05:11.098\n三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條\n\n05:12.739 --> 05:33.950\n我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程\n\n05:41.694 --> 05:57.384\n一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料\n\n05:58.945 --> 06:26.938\n它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法\n\n06:27.998 --> 06:36.391\n像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛\n\n06:38.172 --> 07:03.952\n那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致\n\n07:04.933 --> 07:22.959\n原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度\n\n07:23.719 --> 07:49.020\n還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料\n\n07:51.562 --> 08:05.628\n在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟\n\n08:06.109 --> 08:26.667\n無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主\n\n08:27.734 --> 08:54.701\n所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止\n\n08:55.541 --> 09:19.481\n利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用\n\n09:21.160 --> 09:47.156\n所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛對不對部長好謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要\n\n09:48.536 --> 10:06.787\n所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會\n\n10:08.919 --> 10:34.898\n來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生\n\n10:36.579 --> 10:50.638\n那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個\n\n10:53.502 --> 11:10.528\n我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以\n\n11:14.589 --> 11:31.847\n在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好\n\n11:32.648 --> 11:57.416\n可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛\n\n12:00.157 --> 12:14.970\n我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色\n\n12:15.891 --> 12:20.555\n其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的\n\n12:38.451 --> 12:58.172\n需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?\n\n13:00.250 --> 13:12.962\n好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料\n\n13:18.005 --> 13:41.030\n這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題\n\n13:44.830 --> 14:04.870\n另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題\n\n14:09.758 --> 14:24.830\n都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個\n\n14:39.944 --> 15:07.904\n所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊\n\n15:08.584 --> 15:23.667\n所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊部長\n\n15:24.710 --> 15:40.555\n所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望\n\n15:42.356 --> 16:08.488\n也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快\n\n16:09.975 --> 16:11.938\n請求停止我們一定讓人民安心\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.741,"end":7.963,"text":"謝謝主席 請邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對 從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始"},{"start":27.159,"end":49.588,"text":"六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎"},{"start":58.388,"end":74.184,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到"},{"start":76.226,"end":90.142,"text":"呃 健保來 齁 謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是 另外還有一個是我們呃 不是現在在的那個增加的稅收 齁 對以政府 以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到"},{"start":91.283,"end":114.646,"text":"案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過"},{"start":115.887,"end":132.779,"text":"我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?"},{"start":133.559,"end":161.838,"text":"那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了"},{"start":163.859,"end":185.769,"text":"例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討"},{"start":188.548,"end":214.194,"text":"這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持"},{"start":217.916,"end":236.669,"text":"這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔"},{"start":237.429,"end":254.782,"text":"部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用"},{"start":258.484,"end":286.236,"text":"這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起"},{"start":286.816,"end":311.098,"text":"三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條"},{"start":312.739,"end":333.95,"text":"我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好 這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程"},{"start":341.694,"end":357.384,"text":"一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好 所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料"},{"start":358.945,"end":386.938,"text":"它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法"},{"start":387.998,"end":396.391,"text":"像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛"},{"start":398.172,"end":423.952,"text":"那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致"},{"start":424.933,"end":442.959,"text":"原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度"},{"start":443.719,"end":469.02,"text":"還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料"},{"start":471.562,"end":485.628,"text":"在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟"},{"start":486.109,"end":506.667,"text":"無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主"},{"start":507.734,"end":534.701,"text":"所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止"},{"start":535.541,"end":559.481,"text":"利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用"},{"start":561.16,"end":587.156,"text":"所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛 對不對 部長好 謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要"},{"start":588.536,"end":606.787,"text":"所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會"},{"start":608.919,"end":634.898,"text":"來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好 部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生"},{"start":636.579,"end":650.638,"text":"那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子 因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個"},{"start":653.502,"end":670.528,"text":"我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以"},{"start":674.589,"end":691.847,"text":"在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好"},{"start":692.648,"end":717.416,"text":"可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛"},{"start":720.157,"end":734.97,"text":"我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色"},{"start":735.891,"end":740.555,"text":"其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的"},{"start":758.451,"end":778.172,"text":"需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?"},{"start":780.25,"end":792.962,"text":"好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料"},{"start":798.005,"end":821.03,"text":"這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好 謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題"},{"start":824.83,"end":844.87,"text":"另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題"},{"start":849.758,"end":864.83,"text":"都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個"},{"start":879.944,"end":907.904,"text":"所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊"},{"start":908.584,"end":923.667,"text":"所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊 部長"},{"start":924.71,"end":940.555,"text":"所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望"},{"start":942.356,"end":968.488,"text":"也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快"},{"start":969.975,"end":971.938,"text":"請求停止我們一定讓人民安心"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時17分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。我也延續鍾委員問的，從我們的健保費這個部分開始，全民健保法第六十條規定健保總額由主管機關於年度開始六個月前擬定它的範圍，請問衛福部日前所提的明年健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有報國發會了？"],["邱部長泰源：我們今天已經送出去了。"],["廖委員偉翔：今天送出去？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果採高推估值的話，準備金可能會低於一個月，這是不是也代表你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論？請教部長，明年你們會啟動調漲保費嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這部分以我們的推估並不需要調漲保費，第一個是補充保費和基本工資會提升，還有部分負擔的實現，這些都可以挹注到健保來，另外……"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，但是陳時中政委卻說如果是……"],["邱部長泰源：另外還有一個是增加的稅收，以行政院的規劃是有200億會到安全準備基金這邊來，我們算5.5的時候，其實只有少了三十多億，應該很容易可以補過來。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想請教一下，因為陳時中政委說漲保費是待協商的事情，換句話說，好像沒有把這件事情說死，所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣，或者是不夠有共識？你們這部分有沒有溝通過？"],["邱部長泰源：我想陳政委是考慮更多的情況，衛福部是負責執行，我們是更加精算……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，所以我們比較擔心結構上是不是會有困難，尤其醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足，恐怕還需要一、兩年採取高推估值，才能夠將國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度GDP的8%。所以如果明年沒有採高推估值的話，是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討，將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額，移到公務預算之中？這就是我剛剛說的延續剛剛鍾委員的質詢。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的建議。"],["廖委員偉翔：請教部長，這部分是不是已經檢討出來了？例如癌症新藥基金今年是50億，明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億，或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億，或是獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億，以及提升保險服務成效計畫的5億？我的意思是，這個部分你們會不會擴大去檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：關於這個部分，感謝行政院在預算編列的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點，也認為這是民眾對醫療品質很需要的，所以編進去，我相信以這樣的精神，我覺得……"],["廖委員偉翔：明年的也會照樣，然後可能擴大檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：明年的預算應該由公務預算編列的部分，我們會繼續爭取，我相信行政院會支持。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分真的請部長可能要繼續行動……"],["邱部長泰源：這個會增加整個健保的額度，非常謝謝委員的關心。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。針對這個部分，看部長及署長大概什麼時候會做通盤檢討，到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告和資料，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。另外，回到今天的草案，部長，今天討論這個法案，我們先討論立專法必要性的問題。憲判字第13號的主文第三點提到：「就個人健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健康保險署以資料庫儲存、處理、對外傳輸及對外提供利用之主體、目的、要件、範圍……等重要事項，於全民健康保險法第79條、第80條及其他相關法律中，均欠缺明確規定，於此範圍內，不符憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求，違反憲法第22條保障人民資訊隱私權之意旨。相關機關應自本判決宣示之日起3年內，修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律，或制定專法明定之」。請教一下部長，為何不是採取修健保法的方式，而是採取設立專法的方式？有關於設立專法，或者在原本法條中設立專章或是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法第七十九條及第八十條，我想要請教一下部長，就採取專法這件事情，你們修法的判定依據及標準是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：從上一任政府期間就針對憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全，那個時候是用衛生福利整個相關資料，一直討論到我們上任以後，其實這也是衛福部的大工程，也一直在研議，因為這牽涉到人民的權益，怎麼樣又符合憲判的部分，經過多次討論……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，換句話說，就是你們希望更完善地立法，對不對？更完善、詳細地……"],["邱部長泰源：對，後來覺得還是限縮在全民健保資料，因為它有獨特性，所以後來名稱就變成全民健保的資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，憲判字第13號在111年就宣判了，而且揭示3年內應該要修法，但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議，這中間也拖了、延宕了3年，原因是什麼？會不會檢討得太久了？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕，因為很多修法像我們過去很多法也都是研議了很多年，這個我們很小心……"],["廖委員偉翔：可是因為3年的時間快到了，我想要再進一步問，簡單來講，在這個時間點好像才很緊急、很倉卒。再來，行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步明確揭示實質審核標準及行政透明機制，讓我們看起來僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量，這會淪為形式上合憲，可是實際上是否違反比例原則，導致原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護。換句話說，你們行政院版本的草案雖然回應了憲判字第13號相關的要求，但是條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督及問責制度還是讓人感覺相當地薄弱，或者有其他裁量空間過大的嫌疑。此外還有很多的問題，我剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題，他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者不明確還是顯現了立法的倉卒。","本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權，針對這類的敏感資料，在本草案中雖然在第十六條到第十九條設有請求停止及例外不許停止，但是沒有對於例外情況進行實質的界定，何謂重大公益及無可替代的學術必要性？在草案條文中模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損。例如疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的，從基礎學術研究、藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而足，所以如果行政機關一律認定疫苗研究就等於重大公益的話，可能導致例外條款過度膨脹，幾乎可以說只要這樣子宣稱都可以包山包海，大家都可以這樣用，就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞。","部長，在這個部分，為何行政院版本針對當事人行使請求停止利用權的程序及審查標準的規範不足？是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於資訊不對等的劣勢？包含剛剛我注意到也有委員問到這個東西的實例，譬如在請求使用這些資料的時候，是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道自己的資料準備要被使用了，可以趕快去停止被使用？所以這個配套顯然是很不足的，部長，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，也提出非常精闢的建議。有關於你現在列出第十九條的部分，其實它都有做好配套措施，譬如依其他法律，主管機關及保險人有提供之義務，這個也不是霸王條款，而是有時候真的是國家的需要，這個部分在第十條……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就不會很模糊？"],["邱部長泰源：這在第十條就寫得很清楚，第二個跟第三個基本上還算是滿容易定義的，但是這個部分我們還有審查小組，當然它要按照一定的規定，除了審查小組以外，還有諮議會來審查是不是真的合乎第二項……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我再進一步問，依草案第十五條，其申請者若產生產業利益，應該提撥回饋金，但是也沒有明確規範產業利益的認定及比率，這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制形同虛設或者模糊不清？例如假設是產學合作的時候，如何定義產業利益何時發生？這個部分的界定到底你們會怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分是這樣子，我個人覺得健保署在研議當中有考慮到實際上的情況。譬如我剛剛講過，癌症醫院、癌症病人很需要臨床試驗，因為臨床試驗可以省下他們很多很昂貴的藥物費用，所以你去問癌症醫院的院長，他們都說希望政府爭取更多國外的廠商、藥廠來我們臺灣做臨床試驗，這樣不但對臺灣的學術有幫助，也能夠讓沒有錢的病人可以進入臨床試驗，而且這個研究以後就有可能會有成就，如果結果非常好，除了可以治療更多的病人以外，這個公司就有利益，這其實是三贏的局面，但是這個時候我們也要訂一些回饋的機制……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，我想要講的是，這個機制目前草案看起來好像還很模糊……"],["邱部長泰源：這個在授權辦法，我們會好好地討論，但是現在……"],["廖委員偉翔：討論都還不夠詳細，所以……我擔心的就是這個，現在看起來還是太模糊，所有的東西都還是很模糊，就是我剛剛講的時間……"],["邱部長泰源：我們的條例因為是法案……我們把它布置得完整就好了，可是其實很多可以有授權的辦法來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以剛剛我有問配套。部長，我進一步問，像健保資料的諮議會，雖然在草案第四條內有依法設置，但它是否僅是諮詢的角色？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實在它之前有一個審查小組，這個都運轉得相當好，而這個審查小組有24個專家委員，會依據不同的申請案調配專家的比例，所以這已經有審查的機制了，然後再送到諮議會，就是如果有比較困難決定的，或者比較需要討論的、有爭議的，那就是送到諮議會討論，不然的話，是不可能讓諮議會一個案、一個案來審，可能就會……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我再進一步問，這個諮詢會議目前規定需要納入不同領域的專家還有人權團體。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是並沒有強制揭露議事紀錄跟決策過程，好像在這上面並沒有要求有怎麼樣的透明機制，其實我在前面有提到，之前本席跟部長有很多的質詢，都跟這有關係，包含疫苗審查等等的問題，我想要請問衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料諮議會的議事公開，然後決議的結果書面揭露？還有，是否考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證，也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向？即這些制度可以讓民眾在自己的資料被使用時可以更安心，因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。我想會議紀錄公開應該是沒有問題；另外，它的成果其實在網站裡面都已經把最新計畫還有計畫的……"],["廖委員偉翔：開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明？署長說可以。"],["邱部長泰源：我想健保……"],["廖委員偉翔：那你答應我們，希望這個部分的配套要這樣做。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我整段這樣問下來，其實是想要表達一個概念，總結來說，剛剛談到這麼多細節的問題，都是因為這次行政院的草案，基本上概括性授權讓人討論的空間真的很大，有很多地方是需要有細部的討論，我想要請教一下部長，這樣子的草案在立法院有開過公聽會嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：王正旭委員有召開過公聽會。"],["廖委員偉翔：幾次？"],["邱部長泰源：一次。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以在公聽會的部分，立法院只開過一次，對不對？這也誠如剛剛說到的，這樣子的情況，會讓人擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見，是會產生這樣子的疑慮，包括民眾的疑慮等等，去年有一句政治口號喊得漫天價響，專門攻擊所謂特定陣營的法案，叫做「沒有討論，不是民主」，可是當時那個法案開的公聽會次數比這個還多，所以這樣的法案推行及審議的程序，也沒有足夠的社會溝通，我覺得這樣的情況，就會像我剛剛走過來時聽到的，連立法院的同仁都會有各種的疑慮，部長，所以這部分你們要怎麼完善，包括充分的溝通？"],["邱部長泰源：就委員的質詢，我覺得委員都很了解，也都已經聽到很多很多的民意，對於等一下的討論也會有很大的幫助，我們也希望委員能夠多多討論，把它弄得更周全，創造一個三贏的法。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛就說了，不是到逐條審查就真的叫做周全，可能部長這邊需要更加大力道對社會溝通，讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心，以及剛剛說的，如何確保每一個人的資料在被使用之前他是知道的，然後他也可以趕快請求停止。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定讓人民安心，在實務上創造三贏。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員發言。接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}