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我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 336.687, \"end\": 336.927, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 336.927, \"end\": 337.047, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 337.047, \"end\": 337.208, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 337.208, \"end\": 337.668, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 337.668, \"end\": 337.928, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 337.928, \"end\": 339.59, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 339.59, \"end\": 339.85, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 339.85, \"end\": 340.21, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 340.21, \"end\": 340.411, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 340.411, \"end\": 340.511, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, 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\"end\": 704.192, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 704.192, \"end\": 704.333, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 704.333, \"end\": 704.453, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 704.453, \"end\": 704.813, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 704.813, \"end\": 705.173, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 705.173, \"end\": 705.273, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 705.273, \"end\": 705.633, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 705.633, \"end\": 705.734, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 705.734, \"end\": 706.094, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 706.094, \"end\": 706.174, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 706.174, \"end\": 706.214, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 706.214, \"end\": 706.574, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 706.574, \"end\": 706.674, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 706.674, \"end\": 706.694, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,031 --> 00:00:12,246\n好謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組\n\n2\n00:00:17,096 --> 00:00:45,792\n好謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域\n\n3\n00:00:48,778 --> 00:01:08,493\n其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話\n\n4\n00:01:09,554 --> 00:01:37,750\n他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方\n\n5\n00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:42,494\n好謝謝市長警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以\n\n6\n00:02:07,133 --> 00:02:21,632\n如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算\n\n7\n00:02:22,553 --> 00:02:48,153\n跟委員特別提到其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢\n\n8\n00:02:50,254 --> 00:03:17,956\n不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對\n\n9\n00:03:21,183 --> 00:03:43,556\n怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片\n\n10\n00:03:45,198 --> 00:03:59,423\n來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路\n\n11\n00:04:14,451 --> 00:04:15,952\n用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎\n\n12\n00:04:46,909 --> 00:04:56,012\n好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地\n\n13\n00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:31,572\n那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎\n\n14\n00:05:36,687 --> 00:05:45,996\n我們警察去開單的時候難道還要我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好那包括下一那我們再看下一張對面啦對面這就是他對面兩邊來猜猜看哪邊可以停車哪邊不能停車\n\n15\n00:06:05,373 --> 00:06:27,685\n我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟\n\n16\n00:06:28,646 --> 00:06:45,337\n建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商\n\n17\n00:06:46,238 --> 00:07:06,526\n我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務\n\n18\n00:07:08,572 --> 00:07:27,341\n這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張\n\n19\n00:07:28,598 --> 00:07:46,136\n一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們\n\n20\n00:07:49,979 --> 00:08:12,420\n交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務\n\n21\n00:08:13,661 --> 00:08:38,046\n所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府會有地方政府的解釋地方政府譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是\n\n22\n00:08:39,281 --> 00:08:52,260\n都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準\n\n23\n00:09:03,123 --> 00:09:22,352\n我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法\n\n24\n00:09:23,291 --> 00:09:42,565\n我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了\n\n25\n00:09:43,784 --> 00:10:07,219\n的確是有一點對啊你還要去查次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了\n\n26\n00:10:09,841 --> 00:10:27,482\n但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示\n\n27\n00:10:28,667 --> 00:10:45,203\n正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了\n\n28\n00:10:46,328 --> 00:11:09,239\n我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化\n\n29\n00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:28,862\n這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治\n\n30\n00:11:29,422 --> 00:11:46,694\n反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4031\t12246\t好 謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好 陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組\n17096\t45792\t好 謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域\n48778\t68493\t其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話\n69554\t97750\t他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方\n97830\t102494\t好 謝謝市長 警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎 公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以\n127133\t141632\t如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算\n142553\t168153\t跟委員特別提到 其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條 私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢\n170254\t197956\t不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對\n201183\t223556\t怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片\n225198\t239423\t來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路\n254451\t255952\t用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎\n286909\t296012\t好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地 無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色 右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地\n315636\t331572\t那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎\n336687\t345996\t我們警察去開單的時候難道還要 我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車\n365373\t387685\t我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來 下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟\n388646\t405337\t建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商\n406238\t426526\t我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務\n428572\t447341\t這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張\n448598\t466136\t一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們\n469979\t492420\t交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務\n493661\t518046\t所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們 你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個 跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦 有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府 會有地方政府的解釋地方政府 譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是\n519281\t532260\t都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準\n543123\t562352\t我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法\n563291\t582565\t我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊 轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了\n583784\t607219\t的確是有一點對啊 你還要去查 次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告 委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對 沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了\n609841\t627482\t但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示\n628667\t645203\t正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了\n646328\t669239\t我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化\n671180\t688862\t這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治\n689422\t706694\t反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好 陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組\n好 謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域\n其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話\n他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方\n好 謝謝市長 警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎 公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以\n如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算\n跟委員特別提到 其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條 私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢\n不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對\n怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片\n來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路\n用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎\n好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地 無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色 右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地\n那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎\n我們警察去開單的時候難道還要 我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車\n我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來 下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟\n建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商\n我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務\n這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張\n一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們\n交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務\n所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們 你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個 跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦 有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府 會有地方政府的解釋地方政府 譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是\n都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準\n我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法\n我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊 轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了\n的確是有一點對啊 你還要去查 次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告 委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對 沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了\n但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示\n正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了\n我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化\n這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治\n反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.031 --> 00:12.246\n好謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組\n\n00:17.096 --> 00:45.792\n好謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域\n\n00:48.778 --> 01:08.493\n其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話\n\n01:09.554 --> 01:37.750\n他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方\n\n01:37.830 --> 01:42.494\n好謝謝市長警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以\n\n02:07.133 --> 02:21.632\n如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算\n\n02:22.553 --> 02:48.153\n跟委員特別提到其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢\n\n02:50.254 --> 03:17.956\n不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對\n\n03:21.183 --> 03:43.556\n怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片\n\n03:45.198 --> 03:59.423\n來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路\n\n04:14.451 --> 04:15.952\n用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎\n\n04:46.909 --> 04:56.012\n好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地\n\n05:15.636 --> 05:31.572\n那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎\n\n05:36.687 --> 05:45.996\n我們警察去開單的時候難道還要我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好那包括下一那我們再看下一張對面啦對面這就是他對面兩邊來猜猜看哪邊可以停車哪邊不能停車\n\n06:05.373 --> 06:27.685\n我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟\n\n06:28.646 --> 06:45.337\n建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商\n\n06:46.238 --> 07:06.526\n我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務\n\n07:08.572 --> 07:27.341\n這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張\n\n07:28.598 --> 07:46.136\n一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們\n\n07:49.979 --> 08:12.420\n交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務\n\n08:13.661 --> 08:38.046\n所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府會有地方政府的解釋地方政府譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是\n\n08:39.281 --> 08:52.260\n都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準\n\n09:03.123 --> 09:22.352\n我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法\n\n09:23.291 --> 09:42.565\n我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了\n\n09:43.784 --> 10:07.219\n的確是有一點對啊你還要去查次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了\n\n10:09.841 --> 10:27.482\n但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示\n\n10:28.667 --> 10:45.203\n正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了\n\n10:46.328 --> 11:09.239\n我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化\n\n11:11.180 --> 11:28.862\n這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治\n\n11:29.422 --> 11:46.694\n反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.031,"end":12.246,"text":"好 謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好 陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組"},{"start":17.096,"end":45.792,"text":"好 謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域"},{"start":48.778,"end":68.493,"text":"其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話"},{"start":69.554,"end":97.75,"text":"他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方"},{"start":97.83,"end":102.494,"text":"好 謝謝市長 警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎 公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以"},{"start":127.133,"end":141.632,"text":"如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算"},{"start":142.553,"end":168.153,"text":"跟委員特別提到 其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條 私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢"},{"start":170.254,"end":197.956,"text":"不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對"},{"start":201.183,"end":223.556,"text":"怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片"},{"start":225.198,"end":239.423,"text":"來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路"},{"start":254.451,"end":255.952,"text":"用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎"},{"start":286.909,"end":296.012,"text":"好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地 無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色 右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地"},{"start":315.636,"end":331.572,"text":"那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎"},{"start":336.687,"end":345.996,"text":"我們警察去開單的時候難道還要 我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車"},{"start":365.373,"end":387.685,"text":"我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來 下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟"},{"start":388.646,"end":405.337,"text":"建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商"},{"start":406.238,"end":426.526,"text":"我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務"},{"start":428.572,"end":447.341,"text":"這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張"},{"start":448.598,"end":466.136,"text":"一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們"},{"start":469.979,"end":492.42,"text":"交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務"},{"start":493.661,"end":518.046,"text":"所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們 你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個 跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦 有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府 會有地方政府的解釋地方政府 譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是"},{"start":519.281,"end":532.26,"text":"都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準"},{"start":543.123,"end":562.352,"text":"我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法"},{"start":563.291,"end":582.565,"text":"我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊 轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了"},{"start":583.784,"end":607.219,"text":"的確是有一點對啊 你還要去查 次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告 委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對 沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了"},{"start":609.841,"end":627.482,"text":"但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示"},{"start":628.667,"end":645.203,"text":"正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了"},{"start":646.328,"end":669.239,"text":"我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化"},{"start":671.18,"end":688.862,"text":"這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治"},{"start":689.422,"end":706.694,"text":"反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時18分）謝謝主席。邀請交通部陳政次。"],["主席：陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：警政署交通組組長應該有來吧？"],["主席：警政署交通組陳組長。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：今天要跟交通部次長、警政署討論一下道路交通管理處罰條例的適用範圍。我們的法令要在對人民規範、約束或者是懲處的時候，法律有明確性，有怎樣的行為就會被處罰，明確性是相當重要的。道交條例有一些規範，我想確認一下，這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎？還是也包含了私有場域？"],["陳次長彥伯：按處罰條例第三條最後的規定，其實是指公眾通行的地方，經過當地主管機關對於標誌、標線都有納管的區域，就是所謂道路的範圍。"],["廖委員先翔：重點在於如果是私有場域，就是看其他供公眾通行之地方，如果有供公眾通行的義務，就適用道交條例；如果沒有供公眾通行的義務，就不適用道交條例，是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們可以發現，有些停車場是供公眾來使用，而且當地的警察機關或者公路主管機關會在裡面執法，會有標誌、標線的劃設等等，那這個地方就是屬於公共的地方、道路的地方。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝次長。警政署的執法原則也是如此嗎，供公眾通行？"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：不算？"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：你們兩個現在的回應有點落差，到底算不算？私人土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰條例來開罰單，可不可以？"],["陳組長明志：如果是既成的道路才算。"],["廖委員先翔：既成道路嘛。"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：私人土地不算？"],["陳組長明志：公司行號圍起來、他們私有的土地不算。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員特別提到，其實我們兩個的答復並沒有衝突，我剛才特別提到私人的要供公眾通行，而且相關的交通道路主管、警察機關要兼具相關的管理或執法，會有標線、標誌劃設等等的才算，也就是把它開放成類似公有來供大家使用的，所以他剛才講的私人空地，它根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題。"],["廖委員先翔：如果它沒圍呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有圍還是屬於私人，它當然是私人的，私人的就……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的，當然組長講的其實就民眾普遍上來講，有一種型態你也沒有納入，就是騎樓，騎樓一定是適用，這個部分無庸置疑，騎樓可能也在……騎樓在上面已經有了，就是其他供公眾通行的地方。","實務上我要跟兩位報告，包括地方政府，因為現在交通部沒有解釋函，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：有關道路的解釋函，我們解釋很多……"],["廖委員先翔：怎麼去認定它是不是其他供公眾通行的地方？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們解釋很多，如果委員有需要我們可以提供。"],["廖委員先翔：我們辦公室跟你們要過了有沒有其他供公眾通行的相關解釋函，你們沒有相關的解釋函，導致地方政府……"],["陳次長彥伯：有，我們可以來提供。"],["廖委員先翔：有些地方政府有自己的解釋函，包括法院可能也有做相關的解釋。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們可以來提供！"],["林司長福山：是。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位，我們來看一下下面的圖片，這個是私人社區，就是我講的私人社區，當然它是一個建築基地，這裡有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭，左邊箭頭講的就是有地磚的部分，哪一邊可以停車、哪一邊不能停車，你們看不看得出來？我講的是有地磚的部分，不是馬路，就是私人的範圍、私人基地的人行道。"],["陳組長明志：如果是私人的土地，看地主願不願提供出來給其他人使用。"],["廖委員先翔：你們兩位的解讀是這樣？次長，你也是嗎？"],["陳組長明志：看起來就是私人的土地。"],["廖委員先翔：所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單，如果沒有特別的標示之類的，次長，你也一樣的看法嗎？沒關係，既然這件事情都要討論的話，民眾怎麼判斷？警察現場開單怎麼判斷？","下一頁，右邊這個是建築圖管機關的圖，左邊的黃綠斜線是騎樓地、無遮簷騎樓，右邊同樣的一個角度就是單純綠色，綠色是代表法定空地。既然有騎樓地，就有必須要供公眾通行的義務；右邊是法定空地，這就是私人土地，誠如組長講的，如果沒有說要給公眾通行的話，可能警察機關就沒有去開單。但實務上民眾看得出來嗎？我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖管系統去查嗎？或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖管系統去查嗎？","我們再看下一張，這就是它對面而已，兩邊來猜猜看，哪邊可以停車、哪邊不能停車？我會問你就代表你一定看不出來，因為現場就看不出來。下一頁，兩邊都是騎樓地、兩邊都不能停車。","也就是說我們的建築圖管裡面，我就只講建築圖管就好，建築圖管裡面有一些建築法令的規範是必須供公眾通行，但是這套系統包括這塊土地的屬性必須要去跟建築主管機關查詢之後才知道，當然有一種例外是開放空間，開放空間現場會有告示牌或許就看得到，也有一些相關的判例，法院也認為開放空間……因為開放空間在法令上的意思就是，當初有一些建商把一些建築基地的空間供不特定對象通行，然後得到容積獎勵，所以它是有必須要提供給公眾通行的義務。但是這很多東西在沒有告示牌的情況下，警察很難去判斷它是不是開放空間、是不是騎樓地、有沒有供公眾通行的義務，你直接看並看不出來。","我們直接看下一張，就快速掃描過去好了。一樣兩邊的社區，看不出來啊，左邊的社區人行道是法定空地、右邊是騎樓地，看不出來嘛！當看不出來的時候，民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法，警察怎麼知道有沒有違規？","下一張，一樣啊，這個就更複雜了，看右下角的圖，最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地，反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地，你這樣看得出來？這一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地、哪邊是騎樓地？實際上是很難去判斷的。","所以我認為在執法的時候，我會建議交通部可以有一個更明確的指示，只要是私人的土地，未來現場可能要由地方交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示，告訴大家這邊的土地屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務，所以它適用道路交通管理處罰條例，民眾就不可以來這邊停車、警察就會來開單。否則像我剛剛講的一些案例，有的警察去開、有的警察不去開，每個警察的執法都不一致，地方政府會有地方政府的解釋，譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是，只要是都審通過的退縮地，有通行的……大概有解釋是哪一些型態，但是實際上在現場根本看不出來到底符不符合那一種型態。次長或者是組長，你們可不可以簡單回應一下，面對這種狀況，未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性、更有一套標準？"],["陳組長明志：我們一定會請我們的同仁要判斷這個到底是騎樓地還是法定空地，我們會要求執法一定要明確，也不要亂開單，不要為了執法而執法，但是如果事實上真的是違規的，那就一樣要開罰，我們會要求要更嚴謹。"],["廖委員先翔：所以民眾停車的時候還要先上網查一下、去建築管理系統看一下這個私人地到底可不可以停，然後警察開單前也要上網查一下？你不覺得這樣很……"],["陳組長明志：警察一定是當地轄區的派出所，他對於當地的……"],["廖委員先翔：會不會覺得這樣對我們警察同仁的負擔太大了？"],["陳組長明志：的確是有一點。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊，你還要去查。次長，你怎麼使它更簡便的讓民眾跟執法單位……"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，委員剛才提到的很多其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地使用。"],["廖委員先翔：對，沒錯。"],["陳次長彥伯：像這樣的情形不一而足，所以不可能有一個……譬如私人空地就不可以停，類似像這樣的一個解釋，或者私人空地可以停，這個太簡略了。但是如何去認定剛才講的道路範圍？我剛才也提到過，這個我們也做了多次的解釋，我相信各地方政府或警察機關大概也瞭解……"],["廖委員先翔：我會建議交通部，未來私人土地要讓警察同仁來開單的時候，我們就必須要有正面的告示！"],["陳次長彥伯：我想社區的管委會或者相關的，如果那一塊空地是不可以停的，我相信他們會去做一些告示。"],["廖委員先翔：不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停，那個又牽扯到民法了，我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例。"],["陳次長彥伯：就一個空地的話，民眾要……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你就覺得沒關係，以後就讓警察單位自己慢慢去判斷、民眾自己去判斷，跟你們交通部沒有關係？"],["陳次長彥伯：不是，交通部其實是牽涉到法律面，關於法律面我剛才也特別提到……"],["廖委員先翔：所以法律面就是要明確。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我們相關法律……"],["廖委員先翔：讓每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車，執法才沒有疑義。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，法律的明確不是到簡單化，這兩個是不一樣的，不是說簡單化就可以解決，而是要明確可以適用，所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓它明確，然後每一個停車的人也有停車的人要盡的義務、執法也有執法的權限，大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候也知道，這個問題是民眾或是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾，我希望交通部能夠出面，有一個好的解決方式，我就不耽誤大家時間，我希望後續你再請司長來我辦公室討論一下，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}}