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{\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 1001.177, \"end\": 1001.317, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1001.317, \"end\": 1003.077, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1003.077, \"end\": 1003.097, \"score\": 0.022}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,765 --> 00:00:25,676\n我們麻煩法務部部長還有監察院副祕法務部部長監察院副祕署長委員長還有小政署署長謝謝署長署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小政署這一塊謝謝署長\n\n2\n00:00:31,182 --> 00:00:41,188\n那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的\n\n3\n00:00:45,831 --> 00:01:12,768\n我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用因為我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥\n\n4\n00:01:13,228 --> 00:01:40,336\n那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉養室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好開庭態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條\n\n5\n00:01:42,797 --> 00:02:04,902\n98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是\n\n6\n00:02:08,783 --> 00:02:34,195\n司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個的那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員先暫停\n\n7\n00:02:35,550 --> 00:02:49,229\n部長你要我的問題我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案\n\n8\n00:02:50,890 --> 00:02:55,652\n我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟\n\n9\n00:03:09,358 --> 00:03:34,124\n跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套不一樣啦那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的詢問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心\n\n10\n00:03:34,924 --> 00:03:59,216\n那我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是詢問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦那法官踩不踩證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定我們絕對尊重法官但是呢如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了或像仇人\n\n11\n00:04:00,197 --> 00:04:14,253\n這個我想我跟你講部長當年我們在當檢察官的時候開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的為什麼今天就不用了這個我們開庭都會抽查都會抽查就一個問卷調查那我想我們這個監督的力道是很強的\n\n12\n00:04:14,893 --> 00:04:30,097\n這個不是個案這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑事訴訟法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求這個請委員放心我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為委員有提到這個那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種會那個公開的\n\n13\n00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:57,846\n那個那個灰那個什麼真訊光碟的這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公布啦我也不好講說但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講我沒有問過你這個問題好那那個我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事物不能調查你認同嗎\n\n14\n00:05:11,555 --> 00:05:30,807\n這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務\n\n15\n00:05:31,667 --> 00:05:58,835\n因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嘛我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情\n\n16\n00:05:59,495 --> 00:06:25,141\n過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這個會監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員\n\n17\n00:06:27,421 --> 00:06:48,888\n我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好所以這部分謝謝喔您有把話說清楚啦好那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查請問您認同這個說法嗎\n\n18\n00:06:51,649 --> 00:07:20,328\n本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為\n\n19\n00:07:22,449 --> 00:07:44,055\n已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個呢他也可以推派委員調查然後呢他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以呢這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定\n\n20\n00:07:45,895 --> 00:08:12,626\n所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他就說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經真正啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦\n\n21\n00:08:13,971 --> 00:08:36,583\n你剛剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛剛說的施行細則27條\n\n22\n00:08:38,044 --> 00:08:49,635\n他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查\n\n23\n00:08:50,912 --> 00:09:08,091\n所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了\n\n24\n00:09:09,392 --> 00:09:29,969\n我相信有很多行為現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天興他也是使用公務車後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢屏東山地門的鄉長他也因為把公務車拿來做個人坐車使用然後被判刑\n\n25\n00:09:30,509 --> 00:09:42,703\n我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下好你要補充什麼就是說\n\n26\n00:09:45,686 --> 00:10:11,491\n在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理\n\n27\n00:10:12,571 --> 00:10:40,699\n那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了\n\n28\n00:10:40,939 --> 00:11:00,516\n因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊幾年前啊爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院卯起來打\n\n29\n00:11:01,798 --> 00:11:22,698\n還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面我印象中有這個東西我們還印出來跟監察院談但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊櫃院啊\n\n30\n00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:37,959\n在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程\n\n31\n00:11:39,060 --> 00:12:07,568\n發生了什麼事情就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候哇又變成是司法調查中所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦我不會認為可以查或不可以查哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候用不同的做法如果你們說檢察官在調查中我們去\n\n32\n00:12:08,248 --> 00:12:36,935\n做其他的調查這個可以並行那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中絕對不會影響我們監察貴院的調查但是呢在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔過去我覺得\n\n33\n00:12:38,420 --> 00:12:57,375\n檢察院我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被\n\n34\n00:13:00,497 --> 00:13:16,583\n斷錢立委要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後還要再上訴\n\n35\n00:13:17,803 --> 00:13:31,580\n監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊\n\n36\n00:13:33,642 --> 00:13:58,963\n委員我說明一下就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢就是恩恩案由委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂我懂\n\n37\n00:13:59,683 --> 00:14:17,831\n這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個\n\n38\n00:14:18,471 --> 00:14:36,221\n最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿\n\n39\n00:14:37,222 --> 00:14:59,876\n我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改也是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去\n\n40\n00:15:02,778 --> 00:15:10,245\n敢講任何一句話那你的意思是這樣那些司法人員都白癡啊如果照你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦\n\n41\n00:15:11,465 --> 00:15:38,253\n我看過了植物法庭的他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審再審再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁我都予以尊重那我在講齁其實監察院不是這個啦對啦\n\n42\n00:15:39,244 --> 00:16:02,773\n好啦現在不只這個啦我跟你講啦去年啦那高永城不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙你找一個你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK我也覺得可以但是呢侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官\n\n43\n00:16:04,153 --> 00:16:26,650\n就你要叫他來問就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點你要當政治打手你至少做完整一點嘛你全案那些人現在很多都還在啊那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查你找一個轄區配合到場的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦\n\n44\n00:16:30,352 --> 00:16:43,097\n時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好謝謝各位好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n765\t25676\t我們麻煩法務部部長 還有監察院副祕法務部部長 監察院副祕署長委員長還有小政署署長謝謝署長 署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小政署這一塊 謝謝署長\n31182\t41188\t那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的\n45831\t72768\t我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用因為我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥\n73228\t100336\t那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉養室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好開庭態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條\n102797\t124902\t98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是\n128783\t154195\t司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個的那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員先暫停\n155550\t169229\t部長 你要 我的問題 我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的 他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案\n170890\t175652\t我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟\n189358\t214124\t跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套不一樣啦那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的詢問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心\n214924\t239216\t那我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是詢問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦那法官踩不踩證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定我們絕對尊重法官但是呢如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了或像仇人\n240197\t254253\t這個我想 我跟你講 部長當年我們在當檢察官的時候 開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的為什麼今天就不用了這個我們開庭都會抽查 都會抽查就一個問卷調查那我想我們這個監督的力道是很強的\n254893\t270097\t這個不是個案這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑事訴訟法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求這個請委員放心我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為委員有提到這個那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種會那個公開的\n280220\t297846\t那個那個灰那個什麼真訊光碟的這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公布啦我也不好講說但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講我沒有問過你這個問題好那那個我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事物不能調查你認同嗎\n311555\t330807\t這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務\n331667\t358835\t因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嘛我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情\n359495\t385141\t過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這個會監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員\n387421\t408888\t我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好 所以這部分 謝謝喔 您有把話說清楚啦好 那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中 這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查 請問您認同這個說法嗎\n411649\t440328\t本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為\n442449\t464055\t已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個呢他也可以推派委員調查然後呢他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以呢這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定\n465895\t492626\t所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他就說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經真正啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦\n493971\t516583\t你剛剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛剛說的施行細則27條\n518044\t529635\t他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查\n530912\t548091\t所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了\n549392\t569969\t我相信有很多行為 現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容 這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢 2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天興他也是使用公務車 後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢 屏東山地門的鄉長他也因為把公務車拿來做個人坐車使用 然後被判刑\n570509\t582703\t我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下好 你要補充什麼就是說\n585686\t611491\t在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理\n612571\t640699\t那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了\n640939\t660516\t因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊 幾年前啊 爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子 當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院 卯起來打\n661798\t682698\t還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查 沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院 櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面 我印象中有這個東西 我們還印出來跟監察院談 但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊 櫃院啊\n683840\t697959\t在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程\n699060\t727568\t發生了什麼事情 就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候 哇 又變成是司法調查中 所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦 我不會認為可以查或不可以查 哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷 但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候 用不同的做法如果你們說 檢察官在調查中 我們去\n728248\t756935\t做其他的調查 這個可以並行 那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是 為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中 絕對不會影響我們監察 貴院的調查但是呢 在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中 那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔 過去我覺得\n758420\t777375\t檢察院 我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法 尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被\n780497\t796583\t斷錢立委 要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭 職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後 然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後 還要再上訴\n797803\t811580\t監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊\n813642\t838963\t委員 我說明一下 就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢 就是恩恩案由委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂 我懂\n839683\t857831\t這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個\n858471\t876221\t最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿\n877222\t899876\t我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改也是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去\n902778\t910245\t敢講任何一句話 那你的意思是這樣 那些司法人員都白癡啊如果照你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦\n911465\t938253\t我看過了植物法庭的 他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審 再審再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告 過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係 你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁 我都予以尊重那我在講齁 其實監察院不是這個啦對啦\n939244\t962773\t好啦 現在不只這個啦 我跟你講啦去年啦 那高永城不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙 當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙 你找一個 你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK 我也覺得可以但是呢 侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官\n964153\t986650\t就你要叫他來問 就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人 他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點 你要當政治打手 你至少做完整一點嘛你全案 那些人現在很多都還在啊 那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查 你找一個轄區配合到場的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦\n990352\t1003097\t時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好 謝謝各位好 謝謝\n","txt":"我們麻煩法務部部長 還有監察院副祕法務部部長 監察院副祕署長委員長還有小政署署長謝謝署長 署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小政署這一塊 謝謝署長\n那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的\n我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用因為我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥\n那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉養室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好開庭態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條\n98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是\n司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個的那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員先暫停\n部長 你要 我的問題 我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的 他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案\n我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟\n跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套不一樣啦那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的詢問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心\n那我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是詢問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦那法官踩不踩證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定我們絕對尊重法官但是呢如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了或像仇人\n這個我想 我跟你講 部長當年我們在當檢察官的時候 開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的為什麼今天就不用了這個我們開庭都會抽查 都會抽查就一個問卷調查那我想我們這個監督的力道是很強的\n這個不是個案這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑事訴訟法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求這個請委員放心我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為委員有提到這個那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種會那個公開的\n那個那個灰那個什麼真訊光碟的這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公布啦我也不好講說但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講我沒有問過你這個問題好那那個我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事物不能調查你認同嗎\n這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務\n因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嘛我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情\n過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這個會監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員\n我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好 所以這部分 謝謝喔 您有把話說清楚啦好 那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中 這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查 請問您認同這個說法嗎\n本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為\n已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個呢他也可以推派委員調查然後呢他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以呢這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定\n所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他就說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經真正啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦\n你剛剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛剛說的施行細則27條\n他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查\n所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了\n我相信有很多行為 現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容 這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢 2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天興他也是使用公務車 後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢 屏東山地門的鄉長他也因為把公務車拿來做個人坐車使用 然後被判刑\n我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下好 你要補充什麼就是說\n在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理\n那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了\n因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊 幾年前啊 爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子 當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院 卯起來打\n還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查 沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院 櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面 我印象中有這個東西 我們還印出來跟監察院談 但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊 櫃院啊\n在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程\n發生了什麼事情 就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候 哇 又變成是司法調查中 所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦 我不會認為可以查或不可以查 哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷 但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候 用不同的做法如果你們說 檢察官在調查中 我們去\n做其他的調查 這個可以並行 那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是 為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中 絕對不會影響我們監察 貴院的調查但是呢 在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中 那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔 過去我覺得\n檢察院 我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法 尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被\n斷錢立委 要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭 職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後 然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後 還要再上訴\n監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊\n委員 我說明一下 就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢 就是恩恩案由委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂 我懂\n這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個\n最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿\n我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改也是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去\n敢講任何一句話 那你的意思是這樣 那些司法人員都白癡啊如果照你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦\n我看過了植物法庭的 他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審 再審再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告 過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係 你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁 我都予以尊重那我在講齁 其實監察院不是這個啦對啦\n好啦 現在不只這個啦 我跟你講啦去年啦 那高永城不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙 當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙 你找一個 你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK 我也覺得可以但是呢 侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官\n就你要叫他來問 就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人 他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點 你要當政治打手 你至少做完整一點嘛你全案 那些人現在很多都還在啊 那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查 你找一個轄區配合到場的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦\n時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好 謝謝各位好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.765 --> 00:25.676\n我們麻煩法務部部長還有監察院副祕法務部部長監察院副祕署長委員長還有小政署署長謝謝署長署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小政署這一塊謝謝署長\n\n00:31.182 --> 00:41.188\n那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的\n\n00:45.831 --> 01:12.768\n我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用因為我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥\n\n01:13.228 --> 01:40.336\n那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉養室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好開庭態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條\n\n01:42.797 --> 02:04.902\n98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是\n\n02:08.783 --> 02:34.195\n司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個的那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員先暫停\n\n02:35.550 --> 02:49.229\n部長你要我的問題我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案\n\n02:50.890 --> 02:55.652\n我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟\n\n03:09.358 --> 03:34.124\n跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套不一樣啦那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的詢問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心\n\n03:34.924 --> 03:59.216\n那我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是詢問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦那法官踩不踩證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定我們絕對尊重法官但是呢如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了或像仇人\n\n04:00.197 --> 04:14.253\n這個我想我跟你講部長當年我們在當檢察官的時候開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的為什麼今天就不用了這個我們開庭都會抽查都會抽查就一個問卷調查那我想我們這個監督的力道是很強的\n\n04:14.893 --> 04:30.097\n這個不是個案這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑事訴訟法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求這個請委員放心我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為委員有提到這個那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種會那個公開的\n\n04:40.220 --> 04:57.846\n那個那個灰那個什麼真訊光碟的這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公布啦我也不好講說但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講我沒有問過你這個問題好那那個我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事物不能調查你認同嗎\n\n05:11.555 --> 05:30.807\n這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務\n\n05:31.667 --> 05:58.835\n因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嘛我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情\n\n05:59.495 --> 06:25.141\n過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這個會監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員\n\n06:27.421 --> 06:48.888\n我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好所以這部分謝謝喔您有把話說清楚啦好那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查請問您認同這個說法嗎\n\n06:51.649 --> 07:20.328\n本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為\n\n07:22.449 --> 07:44.055\n已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個呢他也可以推派委員調查然後呢他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以呢這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定\n\n07:45.895 --> 08:12.626\n所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他就說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經真正啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦\n\n08:13.971 --> 08:36.583\n你剛剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛剛說的施行細則27條\n\n08:38.044 --> 08:49.635\n他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查\n\n08:50.912 --> 09:08.091\n所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了\n\n09:09.392 --> 09:29.969\n我相信有很多行為現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天興他也是使用公務車後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢屏東山地門的鄉長他也因為把公務車拿來做個人坐車使用然後被判刑\n\n09:30.509 --> 09:42.703\n我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下好你要補充什麼就是說\n\n09:45.686 --> 10:11.491\n在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理\n\n10:12.571 --> 10:40.699\n那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了\n\n10:40.939 --> 11:00.516\n因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊幾年前啊爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院卯起來打\n\n11:01.798 --> 11:22.698\n還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面我印象中有這個東西我們還印出來跟監察院談但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊櫃院啊\n\n11:23.840 --> 11:37.959\n在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程\n\n11:39.060 --> 12:07.568\n發生了什麼事情就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候哇又變成是司法調查中所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦我不會認為可以查或不可以查哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候用不同的做法如果你們說檢察官在調查中我們去\n\n12:08.248 --> 12:36.935\n做其他的調查這個可以並行那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中絕對不會影響我們監察貴院的調查但是呢在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔過去我覺得\n\n12:38.420 --> 12:57.375\n檢察院我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被\n\n13:00.497 --> 13:16.583\n斷錢立委要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後還要再上訴\n\n13:17.803 --> 13:31.580\n監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊\n\n13:33.642 --> 13:58.963\n委員我說明一下就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢就是恩恩案由委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂我懂\n\n13:59.683 --> 14:17.831\n這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個\n\n14:18.471 --> 14:36.221\n最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿\n\n14:37.222 --> 14:59.876\n我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改也是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去\n\n15:02.778 --> 15:10.245\n敢講任何一句話那你的意思是這樣那些司法人員都白癡啊如果照你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦\n\n15:11.465 --> 15:38.253\n我看過了植物法庭的他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審再審再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁我都予以尊重那我在講齁其實監察院不是這個啦對啦\n\n15:39.244 --> 16:02.773\n好啦現在不只這個啦我跟你講啦去年啦那高永城不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙你找一個你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK我也覺得可以但是呢侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官\n\n16:04.153 --> 16:26.650\n就你要叫他來問就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點你要當政治打手你至少做完整一點嘛你全案那些人現在很多都還在啊那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查你找一個轄區配合到場的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦\n\n16:30.352 --> 16:43.097\n時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好謝謝各位好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.765,"end":25.676,"text":"我們麻煩法務部部長 還有監察院副祕法務部部長 監察院副祕署長委員長還有小政署署長謝謝署長 署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小政署這一塊 謝謝署長"},{"start":31.182,"end":41.188,"text":"那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的"},{"start":45.831,"end":72.768,"text":"我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用因為我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥"},{"start":73.228,"end":100.336,"text":"那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉養室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好開庭態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條"},{"start":102.797,"end":124.902,"text":"98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是"},{"start":128.783,"end":154.195,"text":"司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個的那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員先暫停"},{"start":155.55,"end":169.229,"text":"部長 你要 我的問題 我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的 他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案"},{"start":170.89,"end":175.652,"text":"我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟"},{"start":189.358,"end":214.124,"text":"跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套不一樣啦那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的詢問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心"},{"start":214.924,"end":239.216,"text":"那我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是詢問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦那法官踩不踩證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定我們絕對尊重法官但是呢如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了或像仇人"},{"start":240.197,"end":254.253,"text":"這個我想 我跟你講 部長當年我們在當檢察官的時候 開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的為什麼今天就不用了這個我們開庭都會抽查 都會抽查就一個問卷調查那我想我們這個監督的力道是很強的"},{"start":254.893,"end":270.097,"text":"這個不是個案這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑事訴訟法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求這個請委員放心我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為委員有提到這個那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種會那個公開的"},{"start":280.22,"end":297.846,"text":"那個那個灰那個什麼真訊光碟的這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公布啦我也不好講說但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講我沒有問過你這個問題好那那個我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事物不能調查你認同嗎"},{"start":311.555,"end":330.807,"text":"這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務"},{"start":331.667,"end":358.835,"text":"因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嘛我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情"},{"start":359.495,"end":385.141,"text":"過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這個會監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員"},{"start":387.421,"end":408.888,"text":"我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好 所以這部分 謝謝喔 您有把話說清楚啦好 那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中 這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查 請問您認同這個說法嗎"},{"start":411.649,"end":440.328,"text":"本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為"},{"start":442.449,"end":464.055,"text":"已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個呢他也可以推派委員調查然後呢他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以呢這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定"},{"start":465.895,"end":492.626,"text":"所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他就說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經真正啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦"},{"start":493.971,"end":516.583,"text":"你剛剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛剛說的施行細則27條"},{"start":518.044,"end":529.635,"text":"他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查"},{"start":530.912,"end":548.091,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了"},{"start":549.392,"end":569.969,"text":"我相信有很多行為 現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容 這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢 2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天興他也是使用公務車 後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢 屏東山地門的鄉長他也因為把公務車拿來做個人坐車使用 然後被判刑"},{"start":570.509,"end":582.703,"text":"我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下好 你要補充什麼就是說"},{"start":585.686,"end":611.491,"text":"在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理"},{"start":612.571,"end":640.699,"text":"那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了"},{"start":640.939,"end":660.516,"text":"因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊 幾年前啊 爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子 當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院 卯起來打"},{"start":661.798,"end":682.698,"text":"還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查 沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院 櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面 我印象中有這個東西 我們還印出來跟監察院談 但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊 櫃院啊"},{"start":683.84,"end":697.959,"text":"在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程"},{"start":699.06,"end":727.568,"text":"發生了什麼事情 就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候 哇 又變成是司法調查中 所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦 我不會認為可以查或不可以查 哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷 但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候 用不同的做法如果你們說 檢察官在調查中 我們去"},{"start":728.248,"end":756.935,"text":"做其他的調查 這個可以並行 那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是 為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中 絕對不會影響我們監察 貴院的調查但是呢 在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中 那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔 過去我覺得"},{"start":758.42,"end":777.375,"text":"檢察院 我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法 尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被"},{"start":780.497,"end":796.583,"text":"斷錢立委 要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭 職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後 然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後 還要再上訴"},{"start":797.803,"end":811.58,"text":"監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊"},{"start":813.642,"end":838.963,"text":"委員 我說明一下 就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢 就是恩恩案由委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂 我懂"},{"start":839.683,"end":857.831,"text":"這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個"},{"start":858.471,"end":876.221,"text":"最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿"},{"start":877.222,"end":899.876,"text":"我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改也是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去"},{"start":902.778,"end":910.245,"text":"敢講任何一句話 那你的意思是這樣 那些司法人員都白癡啊如果照你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦"},{"start":911.465,"end":938.253,"text":"我看過了植物法庭的 他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審 再審再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告 過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係 你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁 我都予以尊重那我在講齁 其實監察院不是這個啦對啦"},{"start":939.244,"end":962.773,"text":"好啦 現在不只這個啦 我跟你講啦去年啦 那高永城不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙 當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙 你找一個 你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK 我也覺得可以但是呢 侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官"},{"start":964.153,"end":986.65,"text":"就你要叫他來問 就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人 他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點 你要當政治打手 你至少做完整一點嘛你全案 那些人現在很多都還在啊 那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查 你找一個轄區配合到場的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦"},{"start":990.352,"end":1003.097,"text":"時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好 謝謝各位好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時1分）麻煩法務部部長、監察院副秘書長。"],["主席：好，請法務部部長、監察院副秘書長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有矯正署署長。"],["主席：請矯正署署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝署長。署長下個月就要退休了，還是麻煩署長多幫忙矯正署這一塊，謝謝署長。","部長，我剛剛聽黃國昌委員的質詢，當然，黃國昌委員說他剛剛放的並不是訊問的錄音……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是不是AI生成的？"],["吳委員宗憲：我不知道、我不知道，他剛剛有特別說不是，但是因為剛剛部長一直回答說這是證據能力的問題，是法庭法官採不採用……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我主要是在講，偵訊光碟可不可以對外播放，還有一些……是不是有一些爭執的問題。當然，黃國昌委員是講那不是偵訊光碟的資料，但我覺得他這樣真的很不妥，不曉得他是用什麼來這裡混淆試聽……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我覺得這樣真的會……"],["吳委員宗憲：我的問題不是在這裡，你不用回答我這個問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：會誤會這好像是我們檢方開庭態度不好的一個證據。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不是問你這個問題，我剛剛是在講，因為我聽到那個錄音，那個錄音的口氣真的不好。當然，部長剛剛回答說這是證據能力的問題，要看未來法官採不採，但是我想部長，你這個就弄錯了，因為我國刑事訴訟法第九十八條寫得非常清楚：「訊問被告應出以懇切之態度，不得用強暴、脅迫、利誘、詐欺、疲勞訊問或其他不正之方法。」所以如果訊問時的態度像剛剛那樣，基本上就違反刑事訴訟法第九十八條，而且本條司法警察也適用，不是只有檢察官。所以這一塊就是部長你們可以管的，這是和法庭的證據能力無關的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這裡面有寫到邵琇珮的問題，這已經……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，部長，時間先暫停一下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這個是屬於那個……"],["吳委員宗憲：主席、主席，時間先暫停。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這部分，委員……"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！部長，我不是問個案，我剛剛已經講了，黃國昌已經說那個不是訊問的音頻，不是！他剛剛已經特別講了，所以我現在不問個案，我也不問什麼邵琇珮，誰我都不問，我現在只是說訊問這個行為，依照刑事訴訟法第九十八條規定，要出於懇切的態度，而且不得出於強暴、脅迫、利誘、詐欺，這是訴訟法的規定，這個部分跟證據能力無關，所以我是要提醒部長，你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有什麼不對啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要給我拗去個案，每次都玩這一套。"],["鄭部長銘謙：大家各自講的方式不一樣，當然委員所指教的，是屬於刑事訴訟法相關訊問被告的一個方式，以及證據任意性的問題，這部分我們都會督導檢方去做，請委員放心……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就這樣！但我要提醒的是，剛剛黃國昌問的是訊問態度，然後您講到證據能力，這兩個是不同層次，我想念過法律的都懂啦！法官採不採、證據能力有沒有？這是法官將來的認定，我們絕對尊重法官，但是如果檢察官開庭時的口氣像黑道或仇人一樣，那就不對了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我想……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，部長，當年我們在當檢察官的時候，開庭態度不佳是會被叫去罵的，為什麼今天就不用了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個請委員放心，我們開庭都會抽查，做一個問卷調查……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，再麻煩……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們監督的力道是很強的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這個不是個案，這個是通案，我希望全國的檢察官在訊問被告或證人的時候，態度能夠像刑事訴訟法第九十八條所明文規定的，不能用恐嚇、大呼小叫……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個通案我都會要求，這個請委員放心。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，再麻煩部長，我只是順著剛剛的問題請教……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為委員提到這個，那我也要說明一下，現在我們不太贊成用這種非公開的什麼偵訊光碟的這些資料，我覺得會引起民眾的誤會……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我認同你，就是說不可以在立法院公布……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為……我也不好講說是生成式AI……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我現在的問題不是這個，部長，你可以用你自己受訪的時間去說明，不要在我這邊講，我沒有問過你這個問題。","好，接下來我想請教副秘，請問監察委員稱對於涉己事務不能調查，您認同嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：這不是監察院的發言，這是個別監察委員的意見，我剛剛已經說明過了，本案已經依照相關規定移到我們的紀律委員會處理，紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉己事務，因為他就是處理監察委員的相關案子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以你也不認同所謂涉己事務不能調查這句話，這是監委個人的意見嘛！"],["王副秘書長增華：我就是說是……"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘，我再跟您講一個例子，其實過去監察院對於自家秘書長陳豐義就曾經彈劾過，所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉己事務不能調查的這種事情，過往就有這樣的例子，所以我不知道葉大華委員所謂的涉己事務不得調查是依據什麼？這個我到現在還是不懂！您剛剛也說了，涉己事務不是不能調查，紀律委員會也可以查，再來就是我剛剛跟您說的過往例子，秘書長也曾經被彈劾過，所以不存在這個說法，這位監察委員的說法完全不及格，搞不清楚自己什麼話能說、什麼不能說，更何況監察委員自律規範第十七條及第十九條都寫得很清楚，這個部分本來就可以查，監察院不是化外之地，這個部分謝謝您有把話說清楚。","再請教一個問題，這次副院長說司法調查中，所以監察院不能查。請問您認同這個說法嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：本案的狀況是這樣子，因為北檢已經立案在處理、在偵查中，也向監察院進行調查、偵查，這是確定的，這是第一點我要說明的。第二點，副院長那天所說的，是因為監察法施行細則第二十七條第二項所謂但書的規定，副院長的意思是因為相關委員已經移送紀律委員會，而紀律委員會有幾個處理方式，第一，當然他們要開會；第二，也可以推派委員調查，有一定調查結果時就會提報出來，所以某種程度上，也適用監察院調查案件注意事項的相關規定，即所謂第十一條的規定，所以副院長會這樣說明，是認為我們已經在進行調查……"],["吳委員宗憲：我唸給你聽好了，他6月3號那次的記者會說：只要司法啟動調查，監察院這邊就不能調查，本來調查機制已經啟動，但因為北檢已經正式啟動調查，所以我們也只能暫時停住，等司法有一個確認的結果，監察院才能進行調查。這是他說的，跟您剛剛的說法有點不太一樣，但沒關係，我尊重你的說法，但以我對監察法的了解，這個論述我不太能夠接受，現在我就從法律面及事實面來跟各位報告，監察法第二十六條從來沒有提及檢調進去調查的時候，你們就不能查，法並沒有明文規定。其次，你剛剛提到的施行細則第二十七條，不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話，反而是寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為，在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查。所以我覺得還是要回歸法律規定，以公務車送小狗去美容這個行為，到底有沒有問題？從過往的例子來看，這已經不是模稜兩可的行為，我相信有很多行為現在還是模稜兩可，但是送小狗去美容，我想大家不會有爭議。2020年雲林縣消防局局長戴天星也是私用公務車，後來被貴院彈劾；去年3月屏東三地門鄉長因為把公務車作為個人座車使用而被判刑，從這兩個案例可以知道，如果有濫用公務車的行為，可能有涉嫌刑罰問題，我想這是沒有問題的。我再跟……"],["王副秘書長增華：委員，我可以說明一下嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請說，你要補充？"],["王副秘書長增華：監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法，其中第十二條有監察院應不予調查之處理的各款規定，第一款比較明確，是進入行政救濟程序者；第二款是軍、司法偵審程序中，只要進入軍、司法偵審程序，原則上監察院應為不予調查之處理。本案因為涉及到監察委員，所以我們還是積極處理，已經移到紀律委員會處理了。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，這是你剛剛說的部分，我也要跟你講，監察法第二十八條規定：調查人員必要時，得知會當地政府法院或其他有關機關協助。如果不是在審理中，他怎麼請求法院協助？","好，剛剛你說的是法制的部分，我也跟你談論法制部分，再來我就跟你講事實的部分。過往我在新北市政府擔任法制局局長，我記得幾年前爆發一個恩恩案，當時地檢署立刻介入調查，把資料從市政府全部拿走，因為所有案子送檢方之前都會會法制局，所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況，結果貴院卯起來打，還說為什麼檢察官在查，你們就不能查？沒那種事情！我們當時還從監察院、貴院的網站上列出一些資料，就是刑事偵查中的案件，貴院通常不會再進行調查，這是貴院網站上的資料，我印象中有這個部分，我們還印出來跟監察院談，但監察院完全不理會，就卯起來打，所以貴院在面對不同的人時，作法是完全不一樣，不然你可以去看過去那個恩恩案，檢察官在查的時候，監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的？因為我當時承辦，所以非常清楚整個案子流程、發生什麼事情，結果今天貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候，哇！又變成是司法調查中，所以貴院不能查，這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎？我覺得是這樣啦，我不會認為可以查或不可以查哪一個比較好，我不做這樣的論斷，但是麻煩貴院能夠統一作法，而不是在面對不同人的時候用不同的作法，如果你們說檢察官調查中的案子，你們也去做其他調查，兩者可以並行，那就一律可以並行，或是一律不可以並行，我一定持平看待每一件事情，但我不能接受的是，為什麼面對一些事情的時候，檢方在調查中，就絕對不會影響貴院的調查，但是在面對某些不同人的時候，「檢方調查中」就是我不用查的意思，我比較不能接受這樣。","更何況，我覺得監察院過去有一些還滿奇特的作法，尤其是段宜康曲棍球案的那個案子，其實當時我還在當檢察官，那一件事讓檢察官內部極度不爽，因為檢察官正常偵察案件，結果竟然被段前立委要求監察院要下去查，監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾，彈劾之後送到職務法庭，職務法庭認為這根本就不構成任何違法偵查的問題，駁回之後監察院還要繼續再審，駁回之後還要再上訴，監察權完全侵害司法權，然後這也不當一回事，讓檢方那邊很不爽。有一個團體叫劍青檢改協會，多次發文罵這件事情，但貴院也不當一回事啊！好，請說。"],["王副秘書長增華：委員，我說明一下。剛剛委員提到了幾個，包括戴天星案等幾個我們有彈劾的案件，我首先說明一下，他的違失事證不單單只有公務車私用的狀況，這是第一點；第二點就是，恩恩案有委員在處理，原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權，通常就是監察委員怎麼行使其調查權，我們要予以尊重……"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂了，這句話在這邊我已經聽過好幾次了，我尊重監察委員個別行使職權，李俊俋秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次，所以過去的監察委員獨立行使職權去查恩恩案，今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權所以不查，我知道秘書長無權干涉，我瞭解，您剛剛要講的應該就是這個……"],["王副秘書長增華：最後一點是有關於陳隆翔的案件，監察院處理陳隆翔的彈劾案完全是按照職務法庭的判斷，此案為什麼會再審、上訴等等，其實我們有發過新聞稿，委員也可以看……"],["吳委員宗憲：我看過啊！"],["王副秘書長增華：職務法庭並不認為陳隆翔案完全沒有違失，只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒。以上說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以照你這樣講……其實那整個我都看過，而且我去年也質詢過好幾次，如果你的邏輯對，那全國檢察官都是笨蛋，劍青檢改也是笨蛋，竟然敢對這個東西講任何一句話，所以你的意思是這樣。那些司法人員都是白痴，如果你這個邏輯是正確的話。","我跟你講啦，我看過職務法庭駁回那個案子的內容，監察院還好意思再審、再審、再上訴，整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節，這個是過往監察院不會做的事。我在這邊跟你們報告，過往監察院不會這麼做，為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣？我也不知道。不過沒關係，你要反駁劍青檢改的論述，你的反駁我都予以尊重。","我要講的監察院還不只這個，我跟你講，去年高湧誠不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的案子，我們當時也覺得莫名其妙，當時我已經在這邊了，也覺得莫名其妙。你要調查一個35年前的案子，我也OK，我也覺得可以，但是侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層警官，結果你要叫他來問，但刑事局主要承辦這個案子的人你又不問，所以這個時候我就覺得監察委員至少要做得漂亮一點，你要當政治打手至少要做完整一點嘛！全案有關的那些人現在都還在啊！那些人你都不查，主要承辦人不查，你找一個轄區配合到場的基層警官來查？所以我覺得監察委員不能always雙標。","因為時間的關係，我想矯正署這邊就不好意思，那我下一次再請教，在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：署長7月要榮退了。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","黃國昌","王義川","陳培瑜","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","羅智強","吳思瑤","劉書彬","林國成","麥玉珍","陳昭姿","張啓楷","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","林倩綺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-06-16"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「鑑於近來矯正\n監所暴力衝突事件頻傳，如何維護『矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線』及相關獄政策進作為，包括\n提升戒護人力資源」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續併案審查（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具\n「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案、（二）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「監\n察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「監察院國家人權委\n員會組織法第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00006"}}}