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絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦 累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 285.703, \"end\": 285.823, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 285.823, \"end\": 285.963, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 285.963, \"end\": 286.103, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 286.103, \"end\": 286.543, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"絕\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 286.543, \"end\": 286.663, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 286.663, \"end\": 286.943, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 286.943, \"end\": 287.264, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 287.264, \"end\": 287.704, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 287.704, \"end\": 288.424, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"累\", \"start\": 288.424, \"end\": 288.844, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": 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307.73, \"end\": 307.85, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"辭\"}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 307.85, \"end\": 308.03, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 308.03, \"end\": 308.45, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"介\", \"start\": 308.45, \"end\": 308.59, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 308.59, \"end\": 308.61, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 308.61, \"end\": 308.63, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 314.145, \"end\": 342.879, \"text\": \"我們107年 去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎 比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢 結果 請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是 署長 按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 314.145, \"end\": 315.106, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 315.106, \"end\": 315.526, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 315.526, \"end\": 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0.832}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 846.759, \"end\": 846.839, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 846.839, \"end\": 846.859, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 846.859, \"end\": 846.879, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,026 --> 00:00:11,847\n主席你的手機嗎主席各位同仁剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思所以現在就請你上來補說明一下\n\n2\n00:00:38,263 --> 00:01:02,983\n我剛剛有跟署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像\n\n3\n00:01:09,012 --> 00:01:32,169\n會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起但是這是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說,現在我們到底\n\n4\n00:01:33,297 --> 00:01:57,635\n矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是\n\n5\n00:02:02,819 --> 00:02:19,461\n這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策\n\n6\n00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:36,637\n法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充\n\n7\n00:02:37,765 --> 00:02:51,917\n補充人力啦專業訓練然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為就這樣子三句話講完啦我也看這個矯正署的報告裡面也其實也同樣的就是同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦署長這個我們\n\n8\n00:03:02,216 --> 00:03:26,001\n就所有報告開宗明義都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少你能不能講一下709實際缺額的情形709人709人這你們報告寫的709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格這個世界各國介乎人力比\n\n9\n00:03:26,781 --> 00:03:55,600\n的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3\n\n10\n00:03:56,921 --> 00:04:14,993\n美國也只有1比4.5確實看起來我們這個介護人力確實是非常的不足這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎\n\n11\n00:04:22,907 --> 00:04:45,243\n我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎\n\n12\n00:04:45,703 --> 00:05:08,630\n不是不是絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力\n\n13\n00:05:14,145 --> 00:05:42,879\n我們107年去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢結果請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是署長按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了\n\n14\n00:05:44,452 --> 00:06:10,573\n所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎\n\n15\n00:06:14,025 --> 00:06:26,692\n對不對把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足對不對\n\n16\n00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:51,188\n我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啊署長你快要退休我知道說這是未來的問題部長你回答一下\n\n17\n00:06:52,108 --> 00:07:18,580\n那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才署長有講就請證人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在請證這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去因為它本身你的招考人數也都不夠\n\n18\n00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:42,058\n然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些傾徵啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦齁這個部分我是希望希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講啦一年後再排通話專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說傾徵啦就這樣子\n\n19\n00:07:45,165 --> 00:08:07,004\n我是希望能夠解決一些問題啦那現在這樣的暴力事件的升級齁這個其實齁監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們這個目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告\n\n20\n00:08:08,908 --> 00:08:30,857\n那每年這個報告我就拿去年跟前年這兩年112年113年這兩年一個是針對北京的一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善\n\n21\n00:08:33,712 --> 00:08:42,238\n請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子?監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告\n\n22\n00:08:57,421 --> 00:09:24,880\n裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北監一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北監的這些用語\n\n23\n00:09:26,308 --> 00:09:52,818\n他裡面有提到這個經常對受刑人經常無故經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對這個受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的\n\n24\n00:09:55,453 --> 00:10:06,044\n這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的這所謂的雜役的什麼雜役所謂的雜役雜役\n\n25\n00:10:12,194 --> 00:10:27,706\n這些狀況齁其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼都我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改\n\n26\n00:10:39,742 --> 00:11:03,997\n這都監察院的報告啦這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角有改善嗎\n\n27\n00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:36,303\n我們各監獄會有一個介護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件\n\n28\n00:11:37,728 --> 00:11:53,698\n我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個\n\n29\n00:11:56,994 --> 00:12:18,554\n我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在\n\n30\n00:12:20,373 --> 00:12:48,554\n你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人撰寫人都是你們我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告沒有啦你回去找每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都是我們都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人\n\n31\n00:12:49,315 --> 00:13:03,490\n跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些進進的這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善\n\n32\n00:13:04,858 --> 00:13:26,524\n我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的藉機我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用藉機的指引跟私立護電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行\n\n33\n00:13:32,365 --> 00:13:49,458\n要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點\n\n34\n00:13:50,629 --> 00:14:06,879\n你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理御政我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10026\t11847\t主席你的手機嗎主席各位同仁剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思所以現在就請你上來補說明一下\n38263\t62983\t我剛剛有跟署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像\n69012\t92169\t會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起但是這是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說,現在我們到底\n93297\t117635\t矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是\n122819\t139461\t這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策\n142710\t156637\t法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充\n157765\t171917\t補充人力啦 專業訓練然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為 就這樣子三句話講完啦我也看這個矯正署的報告裡面也其實也同樣的就是同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦 署長這個我們\n182216\t206001\t就所有報告開宗明義都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少 你能不能講一下709實際缺額的情形709人709人 這你們報告寫的709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格這個世界各國介乎人力比\n206781\t235600\t的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3\n236921\t254993\t美國也只有1比4.5確實看起來我們這個介護人力確實是非常的不足這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎\n262907\t285243\t我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎\n285703\t308630\t不是不是 絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦 累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力\n314145\t342879\t我們107年 去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎 比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢 結果 請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是 署長 按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了\n344452\t370573\t所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告 剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎\n374025\t386692\t對不對 把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足 對不對\n388640\t411188\t我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啊 署長你快要退休我知道說這是未來的問題部長你回答一下\n412108\t438580\t那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才署長有講就請證人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在請證這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去因為它本身你的招考人數也都不夠\n440481\t462058\t然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些傾徵啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦齁這個部分我是希望希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講啦一年後再排通話專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說傾徵啦就這樣子\n465165\t487004\t我是希望能夠解決一些問題啦那現在這樣的暴力事件的升級齁這個其實齁監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們這個目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告\n488908\t510857\t那每年這個報告 我就拿去年跟前年這兩年 112年 113年這兩年一個是針對北京的 一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對 幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善\n513712\t522238\t請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子?監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告\n537421\t564880\t裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北監一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北監的這些用語\n566308\t592818\t他裡面有提到這個經常對受刑人經常無故經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對這個受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的\n595453\t606044\t這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的這所謂的雜役的什麼雜役 所謂的雜役雜役\n612194\t627706\t這些狀況齁 其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼都我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改\n639742\t663997\t這都監察院的報告啦 這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面 他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全 制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角 有改善嗎\n668830\t696303\t我們各監獄會有一個介護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件\n697728\t713698\t我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個\n716994\t738554\t我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在\n740373\t768554\t你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人 撰寫人都是你們我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告沒有啦 你回去找每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都是我們 都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人\n769315\t783490\t跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些進進的這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善\n784858\t806524\t我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的藉機我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用藉機的指引跟私立護電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行\n812365\t829458\t要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點\n830629\t846879\t你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理御政我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好\n","txt":"主席你的手機嗎主席各位同仁剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思所以現在就請你上來補說明一下\n我剛剛有跟署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像\n會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起但是這是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說,現在我們到底\n矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是\n這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策\n法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充\n補充人力啦 專業訓練然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為 就這樣子三句話講完啦我也看這個矯正署的報告裡面也其實也同樣的就是同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦 署長這個我們\n就所有報告開宗明義都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少 你能不能講一下709實際缺額的情形709人709人 這你們報告寫的709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格這個世界各國介乎人力比\n的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3\n美國也只有1比4.5確實看起來我們這個介護人力確實是非常的不足這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎\n我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎\n不是不是 絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦 累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力\n我們107年 去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎 比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢 結果 請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是 署長 按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了\n所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告 剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎\n對不對 把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足 對不對\n我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啊 署長你快要退休我知道說這是未來的問題部長你回答一下\n那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才署長有講就請證人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在請證這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去因為它本身你的招考人數也都不夠\n然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些傾徵啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦齁這個部分我是希望希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講啦一年後再排通話專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說傾徵啦就這樣子\n我是希望能夠解決一些問題啦那現在這樣的暴力事件的升級齁這個其實齁監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們這個目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告\n那每年這個報告 我就拿去年跟前年這兩年 112年 113年這兩年一個是針對北京的 一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對 幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善\n請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子?監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告\n裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北監一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北監的這些用語\n他裡面有提到這個經常對受刑人經常無故經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對這個受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的\n這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的這所謂的雜役的什麼雜役 所謂的雜役雜役\n這些狀況齁 其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼都我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改\n這都監察院的報告啦 這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面 他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全 制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角 有改善嗎\n我們各監獄會有一個介護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件\n我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個\n我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在\n你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人 撰寫人都是你們我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告沒有啦 你回去找每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都是我們 都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人\n跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些進進的這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善\n我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的藉機我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用藉機的指引跟私立護電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行\n要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點\n你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理御政我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.026 --> 00:11.847\n主席你的手機嗎主席各位同仁剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思所以現在就請你上來補說明一下\n\n00:38.263 --> 01:02.983\n我剛剛有跟署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像\n\n01:09.012 --> 01:32.169\n會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起但是這是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說,現在我們到底\n\n01:33.297 --> 01:57.635\n矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是\n\n02:02.819 --> 02:19.461\n這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策\n\n02:22.710 --> 02:36.637\n法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充\n\n02:37.765 --> 02:51.917\n補充人力啦專業訓練然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為就這樣子三句話講完啦我也看這個矯正署的報告裡面也其實也同樣的就是同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦署長這個我們\n\n03:02.216 --> 03:26.001\n就所有報告開宗明義都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少你能不能講一下709實際缺額的情形709人709人這你們報告寫的709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格這個世界各國介乎人力比\n\n03:26.781 --> 03:55.600\n的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3\n\n03:56.921 --> 04:14.993\n美國也只有1比4.5確實看起來我們這個介護人力確實是非常的不足這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎\n\n04:22.907 --> 04:45.243\n我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎\n\n04:45.703 --> 05:08.630\n不是不是絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力\n\n05:14.145 --> 05:42.879\n我們107年去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢結果請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是署長按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了\n\n05:44.452 --> 06:10.573\n所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎\n\n06:14.025 --> 06:26.692\n對不對把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足對不對\n\n06:28.640 --> 06:51.188\n我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啊署長你快要退休我知道說這是未來的問題部長你回答一下\n\n06:52.108 --> 07:18.580\n那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才署長有講就請證人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在請證這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去因為它本身你的招考人數也都不夠\n\n07:20.481 --> 07:42.058\n然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些傾徵啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦齁這個部分我是希望希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講啦一年後再排通話專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說傾徵啦就這樣子\n\n07:45.165 --> 08:07.004\n我是希望能夠解決一些問題啦那現在這樣的暴力事件的升級齁這個其實齁監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們這個目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告\n\n08:08.908 --> 08:30.857\n那每年這個報告我就拿去年跟前年這兩年112年113年這兩年一個是針對北京的一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善\n\n08:33.712 --> 08:42.238\n請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子?監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告\n\n08:57.421 --> 09:24.880\n裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北監一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北監的這些用語\n\n09:26.308 --> 09:52.818\n他裡面有提到這個經常對受刑人經常無故經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對這個受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的\n\n09:55.453 --> 10:06.044\n這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的這所謂的雜役的什麼雜役所謂的雜役雜役\n\n10:12.194 --> 10:27.706\n這些狀況齁其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼都我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改\n\n10:39.742 --> 11:03.997\n這都監察院的報告啦這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角有改善嗎\n\n11:08.830 --> 11:36.303\n我們各監獄會有一個介護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件\n\n11:37.728 --> 11:53.698\n我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個\n\n11:56.994 --> 12:18.554\n我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在\n\n12:20.373 --> 12:48.554\n你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人撰寫人都是你們我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告沒有啦你回去找每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都是我們都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人\n\n12:49.315 --> 13:03.490\n跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些進進的這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善\n\n13:04.858 --> 13:26.524\n我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的藉機我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用藉機的指引跟私立護電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行\n\n13:32.365 --> 13:49.458\n要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點\n\n13:50.629 --> 14:06.879\n你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理御政我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.026,"end":11.847,"text":"主席你的手機嗎主席各位同仁剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思所以現在就請你上來補說明一下"},{"start":38.263,"end":62.983,"text":"我剛剛有跟署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像"},{"start":69.012,"end":92.169,"text":"會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起但是這是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說,現在我們到底"},{"start":93.297,"end":117.635,"text":"矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是"},{"start":122.819,"end":139.461,"text":"這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":142.71,"end":156.637,"text":"法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充"},{"start":157.765,"end":171.917,"text":"補充人力啦 專業訓練然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為 就這樣子三句話講完啦我也看這個矯正署的報告裡面也其實也同樣的就是同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦 署長這個我們"},{"start":182.216,"end":206.001,"text":"就所有報告開宗明義都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少 你能不能講一下709實際缺額的情形709人709人 這你們報告寫的709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格這個世界各國介乎人力比"},{"start":206.781,"end":235.6,"text":"的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3"},{"start":236.921,"end":254.993,"text":"美國也只有1比4.5確實看起來我們這個介護人力確實是非常的不足這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎"},{"start":262.907,"end":285.243,"text":"我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎"},{"start":285.703,"end":308.63,"text":"不是不是 絕對不是是歷年來嘛累積的累積的啦 累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足了那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足了所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的政策來處理人力不足跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力"},{"start":314.145,"end":342.879,"text":"我們107年 去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎 比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢 結果 請增123名那111年配合我們八德外醫間跟雲林二街請增390名所以人力不足不是 署長 按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因這些原因你們也都列出來了"},{"start":344.452,"end":370.573,"text":"所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告 剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎"},{"start":374.025,"end":386.692,"text":"對不對 把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足 對不對"},{"start":388.64,"end":411.188,"text":"我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啊 署長你快要退休我知道說這是未來的問題部長你回答一下"},{"start":412.108,"end":438.58,"text":"那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才署長有講就請證人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在請證這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去因為它本身你的招考人數也都不夠"},{"start":440.481,"end":462.058,"text":"然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些傾徵啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦齁這個部分我是希望希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講啦一年後再排通話專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說傾徵啦就這樣子"},{"start":465.165,"end":487.004,"text":"我是希望能夠解決一些問題啦那現在這樣的暴力事件的升級齁這個其實齁監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們這個目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告"},{"start":488.908,"end":510.857,"text":"那每年這個報告 我就拿去年跟前年這兩年 112年 113年這兩年一個是針對北京的 一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對 幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善"},{"start":513.712,"end":522.238,"text":"請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子?監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告"},{"start":537.421,"end":564.88,"text":"裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北監一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北監的這些用語"},{"start":566.308,"end":592.818,"text":"他裡面有提到這個經常對受刑人經常無故經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對這個受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的"},{"start":595.453,"end":606.044,"text":"這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的這所謂的雜役的什麼雜役 所謂的雜役雜役"},{"start":612.194,"end":627.706,"text":"這些狀況齁 其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼都我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改"},{"start":639.742,"end":663.997,"text":"這都監察院的報告啦 這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面 他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全 制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角 有改善嗎"},{"start":668.83,"end":696.303,"text":"我們各監獄會有一個介護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件"},{"start":697.728,"end":713.698,"text":"我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個"},{"start":716.994,"end":738.554,"text":"我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在"},{"start":740.373,"end":768.554,"text":"你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人 撰寫人都是你們我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告沒有啦 你回去找每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都是我們 都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人"},{"start":769.315,"end":783.49,"text":"跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些進進的這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善"},{"start":784.858,"end":806.524,"text":"我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的藉機我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用藉機的指引跟私立護電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行"},{"start":812.365,"end":829.458,"text":"要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點"},{"start":830.629,"end":846.879,"text":"你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理御政我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時18分）主席、各位同仁。剛才看到即將要退休的署長在後面站了那麼久，我們主席質詢又超時……"],["主席：不好意思。"],["沈委員發惠：超時一倍，然後又叫你站在那邊站了那麼久都沒問，我覺得對你很不好意思，所以現在就請你上來補說明。"],["主席：我剛剛也有跟署長說不好意思。"],["沈委員發惠：部長，你也一起，因為如果有一些也牽涉到……"],["主席：署長就……"],["沈委員發惠：主要應該還是要請教署長，不過有一些政策的問題會請部長補充，其他的沒有關係，有必要再上來，我不像吳宗憲，不會讓你們罰站那麼久。","因為署長即將退休，所以有一些問題在這邊問好像會……過去的問題很多我看你們的報告……過去的問題很多也是累積很久，也不是你的問題；未來的問題好像也不關你的事，所以在這邊這樣子我有一點不知從何問起，但等於就是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗，所以有一些部分我想跟你瞭解，現在矯正署跟法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼對策。","投影片是我整理的，剛才我看陳培瑜委員也有整理，大家都……今天主席排這個專案報告也是近年來……這也是我在這一年的時間看到監獄管理失當跟暴力事件的相關新聞，這些個案只是呈現過去這一年狀況確實是非常多。所以我一直很仔細也很期待地看著法務部跟矯正署，對於這些近來矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳的問題到底有什麼樣的對策。法務部的部分我看了覺得非常簡單，總共是2頁再多3行，在這2頁裡面，第一個講的其實就是人力不足，要補充人力，要專業訓練，然後再來是要科技輔助跟健全處遇作為，就這樣子3句話講完；我也看了矯正署的報告，裡面其實也同樣是在講這幾個問題，只是講得稍微仔細一點。","我想問題是這樣子，署長，所有的報告開宗明義都是在講實在是人力不足，我們現在的人力到底是缺了多少？你要不要講一下？實際缺額的情形。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是709人。"],["沈委員發惠：709人，在你們的報告也寫709人。在你們矯正署的報告裡也特別列出了一個表格，就是世界各國戒護人力比的標準，我們臺灣是1個人要管9.8個人（1：9.8），這個9.8是如果人力補足的話，1人要管9.8人，現在這709人還沒有補上，所以是1：11.4，1個人要管11個人多。"],["周署長輝煌：對。"],["沈委員發惠：在日本是1：2.3，幾乎1個人只要管2個人左右；新加坡是1：3；美國也只有1：4.5，我們的戒護人力確實是非常不足。這樣的缺額不足是從什麼時候開始的？這709人的缺額是今年突然有缺的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，不是。我們預算員額是6,076人，但是剛剛部長有提到缺額有709人，也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5,367人，以這個比例來看，我們現在的受刑人大概在6萬出頭。"],["沈委員發惠：我要問的是，這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：不是、不是，絕對不是。"],["沈委員發惠：是歷年來的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：對，是歷年累積的。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說長期以來都人力不足。"],["周署長輝煌：對。"],["沈委員發惠：今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重，你們提出來的第一個理由還是人力不足。所以我就要問，人力不足怎麼辦？你們現在有什麼樣的對策可以處理這個部分？"],["周署長輝煌：跟行政院請增，因為我們會有辭職、商調……"],["沈委員發惠：請增什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：請增戒護人力。"],["沈委員發惠：然後呢？過去、去年沒有做嗎？去年沒有請增嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：沒有、沒有，比如我們107年就有請增228名……"],["沈委員發惠：結果？請增的結果？"],["周署長輝煌：110年請增123名，111年配合八德外役監及雲林二監，請增390名，總共……"],["沈委員發惠：到現在還是有709個缺額。署長，按照你的報告，人力不足有很多原因，這些原因你們也都列出來了，所以怎麼辦？讓這個缺額繼續擴大嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：當然不是，我們會努力再請增。跟委員報告，這幾年下來我們合計請增了913名，人總也是有給我們，只是現在還有709名缺額，因為我們會有辭職、商調的……"],["沈委員發惠：對，但是按照你的報告，這709人就算補上了，還是1比9.8，不是嗎？對不對？把缺額補上了，是1比9.8，現在沒有補上，是1比11.14，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：是、是、是……"],["沈委員發惠：所以即使709個缺額全部補上，還是人力不足，對不對？還是你認為……"],["周署長輝煌：但是我們有配合科技安全網，還有智慧監獄……"],["沈委員發惠：科技我等一下會跟你討論，我現在跟你講人力不足。你們有講幾個原因，我們問你們怎麼因應？你們說第一個就人力不足，所以加強專業訓練；第二個就是用科技來輔助，對不對？沒關係，署長，你快要退休了，我也知道這是未來的問題。部長，你回答一下，到底你們人力不足怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才署長有講，就請增人力，但是因為整個預算，還有編制員額，最主要還有整個中央政府機關總員額法裡面的限制，所以我們在請增這個部分還要經過一番的努力，但是因為監所……"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分如果你們不去正視，它就會永遠一直惡化下去……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["沈委員發惠：因為本身你的招考人數也都不夠，進來的人也不夠，就算全部補滿了還是不夠，所以你不去澈底解決它，一直在請增什麼的，它永遠就是這樣缺額，你永遠會面對同樣的問題。這個部分我是希望能夠有具體措施，老實講，一年後再排同樣的專題出來，你們還是講人力不足，問你怎麼辦？你還是說請增。我是希望能夠解決一些問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：另外，現在暴力事件攀升，其實我這樣看，監察院針對目前監所管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查、都有報告，我就拿去年（113年）及前年（112年）這兩年的報告來比對，一個是針對北監的，一個是針對臺南監獄，幾乎問題、共同缺失都差不多，也就是不管監察院調查幾次，它所列出來的缺失，其實你們都沒有進行改善，署長。"],["周署長輝煌：請問委員提到的北監及南監是指哪個案子？"],["沈委員發惠：112年9月13日監察院112司調0017報告，這個是針對北監的，113年12月11日這個是針對臺南監獄的，這都是監察院的報告，其實它裡面提的用語不可謂不重，法律人說不可謂不重意思就是口氣很重。","以112年的來講，它講北監一再縱容、視而不見，這些都是它對北監的用語，它裡面有提到，對受刑人經常無故上銬、不當施用電擊棒或教唆其他受刑人、服務員實施折手、擊頭、推人撞牆、毆打等方式，這都是監察院的報告講的，都不是我講的。它所提到的服務員是誰？所謂服務員是什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：視同作業的……"],["沈委員發惠：視同作業的什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：就所謂的雜役。"],["沈委員發惠：什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：雜役，所謂的雜役。"],["沈委員發惠：雜役。這些狀況，包括施用戒具什麼，其實你們都有辦法、都有規定，但是像你們施用戒具都要登記時間、登記什麼，結果監察院的報告說，你們的這些多處用立可白塗改，也就是你們有登記幾點開始實施，但是到後來監察院要調查的時候，你們又去用立可白塗改。這都是監察院的報告，這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施。","剛剛你提到科技，這兩份共同缺失裡面就多處提到你們裡面的監視器，包括監視畫面的保全制度也不完善，包括監視器的死角，他們直接指出的監視器死角有改善嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們各監獄會有一個戒護的藍圖，我們不會把……"],["沈委員發惠：我時間已經到了，我很不想再超時。這些你們所發生的，包括司法已經在偵辦的，有管理員對受刑人的、有受刑人對受刑人的、有受刑人對管理員的這些相關暴力事件，我看包括法務部、包括矯正署的書面報告，簡單講一個結論，就是兩手一攤，說沒有辦法，就這樣子，因為人力不足，你們只有靠科技。我認為這樣的態度不好。","我最後提到，司改會在2017年就已經提出來，有關外部監所訪查委員會，我知道我們已經成立了，我們在2022年成立，但是現在你們說這個外部訪查委員會一年開四次會，一年交一次視察報告，結果這些視察報告其實都是你們監所寫的，對不對？撰寫人都是你們。"],["周署長輝煌：不是，我們都要求要由外部視察委員來寫，我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員寫這個報告。"],["沈委員發惠：署長，沒有，你回去翻閱每一年的報告，上面的撰寫人都不是外部委員，都是你們機關的人員。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組，我們有做一些精進了……"],["沈委員發惠：內部的控管機制，不管監察院的調查報告怎麼寫，年年寫、每年寫，其實你們都沒有去改善，外部的訪查委員會，你們也沒有去強化它的機能，就造成這樣的結果了。"],["周署長輝煌：報告一件事，委員提到的戒具，我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄及看守所施用戒具指引，以及施以固定保護指引……"],["沈委員發惠：這個我時間不夠，我可以翻我的簡報……"],["周署長輝煌：所以我們都有要求各機關要……"],["沈委員發惠：內容我都寫在簡報上面了，這個都……"],["周署長輝煌：確實執行。"],["沈委員發惠：要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白塗你們的使用時間，公文修改都要去蓋職章、要去簽名，說這裡有修改，但是你們那個時間用立可白塗了，都不用簽名，光這一點，你如果改這一點，我就已經阿彌陀佛了。","署長，不過沒有關係，恭喜你要退休，脫離苦海。部長，但是你還沒有要退休，相關的監所管理、獄政，我希望你們能夠想辦法從根解決，不要每年都來討論同樣的問題，好不好？以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","黃國昌","王義川","陳培瑜","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","羅智強","吳思瑤","劉書彬","林國成","麥玉珍","陳昭姿","張啓楷","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","林倩綺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-06-16"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「鑑於近來矯正\n監所暴力衝突事件頻傳，如何維護『矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線』及相關獄政策進作為，包括\n提升戒護人力資源」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續併案審查（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具\n「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案、（二）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「監\n察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「監察院國家人權委\n員會組織法第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00006"}}}