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00:00:17,026\n謝謝主席有請鄭部長跟我們署長周副長麻煩部長署長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:20,661 --> 00:00:38,288\n今天一早上我看到我关心到很多委员针对我们预政改革戒护人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我认为除了要从人力的增补下手其实空间的扩建更\n\n3\n00:00:39,048 --> 00:01:05,158\n不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁\n\n4\n00:01:06,198 --> 00:01:32,048\n那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件\n\n5\n00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:50,969\n甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴\n\n6\n00:01:52,216 --> 00:02:16,032\n但如果以最近我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌\n\n7\n00:02:18,394 --> 00:02:33,623\n也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎\n\n8\n00:02:37,389 --> 00:02:54,675\n報告委員委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦\n\n9\n00:02:55,655 --> 00:03:07,392\n所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為是這個意思嗎對但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢\n\n10\n00:03:08,626 --> 00:03:13,307\n那您先回答我這個問題署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件5年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員\n\n11\n00:03:38,895 --> 00:04:04,223\n每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌\n\n12\n00:04:05,183 --> 00:04:31,389\n而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧\n\n13\n00:04:32,962 --> 00:04:55,911\n這個同意我想任何的在尖索林發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題\n\n14\n00:04:57,432 --> 00:05:22,928\nOK所以我先提醒一下這樣選擇性公開我並不接受那希望你們未來改進下一頁那我這邊提到了我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視我就不再贅述但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到監索的擴建改建工程是重要的因為今天大家都在講人力人力我就\n\n15\n00:05:24,269 --> 00:05:44,612\n我還是會提到但是我要提醒擴建跟改建更是重要的下一頁好空間會影響我們的收容品質所以說呢我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告你們alwaysalways其實之前的報告都會提到說我們的寓所的超收是不到1%\n\n16\n00:05:46,877 --> 00:06:10,784\n如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的\n\n17\n00:06:11,644 --> 00:06:26,632\n你不能夠拿宜花東啦離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受\n\n18\n00:06:27,452 --> 00:06:53,860\n所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100%的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程\n\n19\n00:06:54,580 --> 00:07:15,917\nOK所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行巴德外監跟大化看搜索那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄\n\n20\n00:07:17,658 --> 00:07:35,957\n台北女子監獄還有台北看守台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題我們現在再回答好我知道我稍後也有替你們彙整到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦\n\n21\n00:07:36,417 --> 00:08:02,700\n大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11\n\n22\n00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:21,488\n1.141比11都遠差於國際的標準好下頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員\n\n23\n00:08:22,148 --> 00:08:49,434\n新設人員跟執訓人員那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議訂定的目標私改國事訂定的目標它是目標它是理想它相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是1.98跟私改國事會議的1比8可能我們還要再努力理想\n\n24\n00:08:50,154 --> 00:09:08,940\n就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是1比100那我們2025實施的現況是1比13.8位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的\n\n25\n00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:35,455\n司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺\n\n26\n00:09:36,235 --> 00:09:56,834\n還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要相關的累計處理還有活動\n\n27\n00:10:03,319 --> 00:10:19,912\n所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取叫好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比6因為我們現在但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比6\n\n28\n00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:32,681\n那我問一個問題心社人員心理師社工本身能不能夠去協助教化人員分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的\n\n29\n00:10:50,319 --> 00:11:10,451\n因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許\n\n30\n00:11:11,932 --> 00:11:15,654\n他不是直接去做教會人員的工作但也許可以在一些課程啦講習啦或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分\n\n31\n00:11:34,222 --> 00:11:42,987\n那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少我提醒一下\n\n32\n00:11:58,442 --> 00:12:17,921\n一你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄雲林第二監獄都完成了但它還是超收喔我要提醒一下部長它還是超收它還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進OK\n\n33\n00:12:23,746 --> 00:12:49,952\n最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧報告委員我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎\n\n34\n00:12:52,489 --> 00:13:07,487\n目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地\n\n35\n00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:33,759\n好那就加油那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會\n\n36\n00:13:35,354 --> 00:13:49,379\n用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權他是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來\n\n37\n00:13:51,616 --> 00:14:04,365\n把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了\n\n38\n00:14:05,816 --> 00:14:09,679\n第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話\n\n39\n00:14:25,829 --> 00:14:34,476\n那對我在程序發言請問一下這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法庭在審查高溫的時候再發表發言好嗎這個該是一個的\n\n40\n00:14:53,132 --> 00:14:54,893\n大家不要講這樣啦因為我們還沒有審法條麻煩各位沒有審法條那吳委員\n\n41\n00:15:14,139 --> 00:15:17,423\n如果委員搞不清楚憲法那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚是你在違憲我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了就是我的權宜問題不要再違憲了\n\n42\n00:15:31,658 --> 00:15:40,603\n請宗憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了OK好我在跟您這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會來沒關係啦我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7241\t17026\t謝謝主席 有請鄭部長跟我們署長周副長麻煩部長 署長委員好\n20661\t38288\t今天一早上我看到我关心到很多委员针对我们预政改革戒护人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我认为除了要从人力的增补下手其实空间的扩建更\n39048\t65158\t不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁\n66198\t92048\t那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件\n94449\t110969\t甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴\n112216\t136032\t但如果以最近 我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌\n138394\t153623\t也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎\n157389\t174675\t報告委員 委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦\n175655\t187392\t所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為 是這個意思嗎對 但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢\n188626\t193307\t那您先回答我這個問題 署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件5年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員\n218895\t244223\t每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌\n245183\t271389\t而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧\n272962\t295911\t這個同意我想任何的在尖索林發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題\n297432\t322928\tOK 所以我先提醒一下 這樣選擇性公開 我並不接受那希望你們未來改進 下一頁那我這邊提到了 我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視 我就不再贅述 但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到 監索的擴建改建工程是重要的因為今天大家都在講人力 人力我就\n324269\t344612\t我還是會提到 但是我要提醒 擴建跟改建更是重要的 下一頁好 空間會影響我們的收容品質所以說呢 我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告 你們always always其實之前的報告都會提到說 我們的寓所的超收是不到1%\n346877\t370784\t如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的\n371644\t386632\t你不能夠拿宜花東啦 離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受\n387452\t413860\t所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100%的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程\n414580\t435917\tOK 所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行巴德外監跟大化看搜索那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄\n437658\t455957\t台北女子監獄 還有台北看守 台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題我們現在再回答好 我知道 我稍後也有替你們彙整到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分 我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重 戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦\n456417\t482700\t大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11\n486160\t501488\t1.14 1比11都遠差於國際的標準好下頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員\n502148\t529434\t新設人員跟執訓人員那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議訂定的目標私改國事訂定的目標它是目標它是理想它相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是1.98跟私改國事會議的1比8可能我們還要再努力理想\n530154\t548940\t就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是1比100那我們2025實施的現況是1比13.8位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的\n550660\t575455\t司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺\n576235\t596834\t還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要相關的累計處理還有活動\n603319\t619912\t所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取 叫好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比6因為我們現在但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比6\n631340\t632681\t那我問一個問題 心社人員 心理師 社工 本身能不能夠去協助教化人員 分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的\n650319\t670451\t因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許\n671932\t675654\t他不是直接去做教會人員的工作 但也許可以在一些課程啦 講習啦 或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃 是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的 畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上 我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分\n694222\t702987\t那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員 協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少我提醒一下\n718442\t737921\t一 你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄 雲林第二監獄都完成了但它還是超收喔 我要提醒一下部長它還是超收 它還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進 OK\n743746\t769952\t最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧報告委員我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎\n772489\t787487\t目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地\n789770\t813759\t好 那就加油 那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個 幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會\n815354\t829379\t用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權他是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來\n831616\t844365\t把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了\n845816\t849679\t第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話\n865829\t874476\t那對 我在程序發言請問一下這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎 你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法庭在審查高溫的時候再發表發言好嗎這個該是一個的\n893132\t894893\t大家不要講 這樣啦因為我們還沒有審法條麻煩各位沒有審法條那吳委員\n914139\t917423\t如果委員搞不清楚憲法 那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚是你在違憲我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了就是我的權宜問題不要再違憲了\n931658\t940603\t請宗憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了OK 好我在跟您這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會來 沒關係啦 我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長跟我們署長周副長麻煩部長 署長委員好\n今天一早上我看到我关心到很多委员针对我们预政改革戒护人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我认为除了要从人力的增补下手其实空间的扩建更\n不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁\n那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件\n甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴\n但如果以最近 我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌\n也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎\n報告委員 委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦\n所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為 是這個意思嗎對 但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢\n那您先回答我這個問題 署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件5年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員\n每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌\n而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧\n這個同意我想任何的在尖索林發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題\nOK 所以我先提醒一下 這樣選擇性公開 我並不接受那希望你們未來改進 下一頁那我這邊提到了 我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視 我就不再贅述 但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到 監索的擴建改建工程是重要的因為今天大家都在講人力 人力我就\n我還是會提到 但是我要提醒 擴建跟改建更是重要的 下一頁好 空間會影響我們的收容品質所以說呢 我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告 你們always always其實之前的報告都會提到說 我們的寓所的超收是不到1%\n如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的\n你不能夠拿宜花東啦 離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受\n所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100%的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程\nOK 所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行巴德外監跟大化看搜索那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄\n台北女子監獄 還有台北看守 台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題我們現在再回答好 我知道 我稍後也有替你們彙整到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分 我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重 戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦\n大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11\n1.14 1比11都遠差於國際的標準好下頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員\n新設人員跟執訓人員那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議訂定的目標私改國事訂定的目標它是目標它是理想它相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是1.98跟私改國事會議的1比8可能我們還要再努力理想\n就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是1比100那我們2025實施的現況是1比13.8位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的\n司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺\n還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要相關的累計處理還有活動\n所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取 叫好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比6因為我們現在但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比6\n那我問一個問題 心社人員 心理師 社工 本身能不能夠去協助教化人員 分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的\n因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許\n他不是直接去做教會人員的工作 但也許可以在一些課程啦 講習啦 或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃 是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的 畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上 我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分\n那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員 協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少我提醒一下\n一 你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄 雲林第二監獄都完成了但它還是超收喔 我要提醒一下部長它還是超收 它還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進 OK\n最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧報告委員我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎\n目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地\n好 那就加油 那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個 幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會\n用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權他是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來\n把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了\n第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話\n那對 我在程序發言請問一下這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎 你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法庭在審查高溫的時候再發表發言好嗎這個該是一個的\n大家不要講 這樣啦因為我們還沒有審法條麻煩各位沒有審法條那吳委員\n如果委員搞不清楚憲法 那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚是你在違憲我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了就是我的權宜問題不要再違憲了\n請宗憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了OK 好我在跟您這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會來 沒關係啦 我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.241 --> 00:17.026\n謝謝主席有請鄭部長跟我們署長周副長麻煩部長署長委員好\n\n00:20.661 --> 00:38.288\n今天一早上我看到我关心到很多委员针对我们预政改革戒护人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我认为除了要从人力的增补下手其实空间的扩建更\n\n00:39.048 --> 01:05.158\n不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁\n\n01:06.198 --> 01:32.048\n那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件\n\n01:34.449 --> 01:50.969\n甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴\n\n01:52.216 --> 02:16.032\n但如果以最近我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌\n\n02:18.394 --> 02:33.623\n也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎\n\n02:37.389 --> 02:54.675\n報告委員委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦\n\n02:55.655 --> 03:07.392\n所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為是這個意思嗎對但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢\n\n03:08.626 --> 03:13.307\n那您先回答我這個問題署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件5年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員\n\n03:38.895 --> 04:04.223\n每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌\n\n04:05.183 --> 04:31.389\n而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧\n\n04:32.962 --> 04:55.911\n這個同意我想任何的在尖索林發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題\n\n04:57.432 --> 05:22.928\nOK所以我先提醒一下這樣選擇性公開我並不接受那希望你們未來改進下一頁那我這邊提到了我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視我就不再贅述但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到監索的擴建改建工程是重要的因為今天大家都在講人力人力我就\n\n05:24.269 --> 05:44.612\n我還是會提到但是我要提醒擴建跟改建更是重要的下一頁好空間會影響我們的收容品質所以說呢我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告你們alwaysalways其實之前的報告都會提到說我們的寓所的超收是不到1%\n\n05:46.877 --> 06:10.784\n如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的\n\n06:11.644 --> 06:26.632\n你不能夠拿宜花東啦離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受\n\n06:27.452 --> 06:53.860\n所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100%的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程\n\n06:54.580 --> 07:15.917\nOK所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行巴德外監跟大化看搜索那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄\n\n07:17.658 --> 07:35.957\n台北女子監獄還有台北看守台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題我們現在再回答好我知道我稍後也有替你們彙整到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦\n\n07:36.417 --> 08:02.700\n大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11\n\n08:06.160 --> 08:21.488\n1.141比11都遠差於國際的標準好下頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員\n\n08:22.148 --> 08:49.434\n新設人員跟執訓人員那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議訂定的目標私改國事訂定的目標它是目標它是理想它相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是1.98跟私改國事會議的1比8可能我們還要再努力理想\n\n08:50.154 --> 09:08.940\n就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是1比100那我們2025實施的現況是1比13.8位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的\n\n09:10.660 --> 09:35.455\n司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺\n\n09:36.235 --> 09:56.834\n還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要相關的累計處理還有活動\n\n10:03.319 --> 10:19.912\n所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取叫好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比6因為我們現在但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比6\n\n10:31.340 --> 10:32.681\n那我問一個問題心社人員心理師社工本身能不能夠去協助教化人員分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的\n\n10:50.319 --> 11:10.451\n因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許\n\n11:11.932 --> 11:15.654\n他不是直接去做教會人員的工作但也許可以在一些課程啦講習啦或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分\n\n11:34.222 --> 11:42.987\n那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少我提醒一下\n\n11:58.442 --> 12:17.921\n一你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄雲林第二監獄都完成了但它還是超收喔我要提醒一下部長它還是超收它還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進OK\n\n12:23.746 --> 12:49.952\n最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧報告委員我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎\n\n12:52.489 --> 13:07.487\n目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地\n\n13:09.770 --> 13:33.759\n好那就加油那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會\n\n13:35.354 --> 13:49.379\n用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權他是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來\n\n13:51.616 --> 14:04.365\n把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了\n\n14:05.816 --> 14:09.679\n第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話\n\n14:25.829 --> 14:34.476\n那對我在程序發言請問一下這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法庭在審查高溫的時候再發表發言好嗎這個該是一個的\n\n14:53.132 --> 14:54.893\n大家不要講這樣啦因為我們還沒有審法條麻煩各位沒有審法條那吳委員\n\n15:14.139 --> 15:17.423\n如果委員搞不清楚憲法那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚是你在違憲我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了就是我的權宜問題不要再違憲了\n\n15:31.658 --> 15:40.603\n請宗憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了OK好我在跟您這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會來沒關係啦我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.241,"end":17.026,"text":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長跟我們署長周副長麻煩部長 署長委員好"},{"start":20.661,"end":38.288,"text":"今天一早上我看到我关心到很多委员针对我们预政改革戒护人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我认为除了要从人力的增补下手其实空间的扩建更"},{"start":39.048,"end":65.158,"text":"不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁"},{"start":66.198,"end":92.048,"text":"那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件"},{"start":94.449,"end":110.969,"text":"甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴"},{"start":112.216,"end":136.032,"text":"但如果以最近 我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌"},{"start":138.394,"end":153.623,"text":"也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎"},{"start":157.389,"end":174.675,"text":"報告委員 委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦"},{"start":175.655,"end":187.392,"text":"所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為 是這個意思嗎對 但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢"},{"start":188.626,"end":193.307,"text":"那您先回答我這個問題 署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件5年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員"},{"start":218.895,"end":244.223,"text":"每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌"},{"start":245.183,"end":271.389,"text":"而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧"},{"start":272.962,"end":295.911,"text":"這個同意我想任何的在尖索林發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題"},{"start":297.432,"end":322.928,"text":"OK 所以我先提醒一下 這樣選擇性公開 我並不接受那希望你們未來改進 下一頁那我這邊提到了 我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視 我就不再贅述 但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到 監索的擴建改建工程是重要的因為今天大家都在講人力 人力我就"},{"start":324.269,"end":344.612,"text":"我還是會提到 但是我要提醒 擴建跟改建更是重要的 下一頁好 空間會影響我們的收容品質所以說呢 我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告 你們always always其實之前的報告都會提到說 我們的寓所的超收是不到1%"},{"start":346.877,"end":370.784,"text":"如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的"},{"start":371.644,"end":386.632,"text":"你不能夠拿宜花東啦 離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受"},{"start":387.452,"end":413.86,"text":"所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100%的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程"},{"start":414.58,"end":435.917,"text":"OK 所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行巴德外監跟大化看搜索那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄"},{"start":437.658,"end":455.957,"text":"台北女子監獄 還有台北看守 台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題我們現在再回答好 我知道 我稍後也有替你們彙整到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分 我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重 戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦"},{"start":456.417,"end":482.7,"text":"大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11"},{"start":486.16,"end":501.488,"text":"1.14 1比11都遠差於國際的標準好下頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員"},{"start":502.148,"end":529.434,"text":"新設人員跟執訓人員那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議訂定的目標私改國事訂定的目標它是目標它是理想它相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是1.98跟私改國事會議的1比8可能我們還要再努力理想"},{"start":530.154,"end":548.94,"text":"就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是1比100那我們2025實施的現況是1比13.8位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的"},{"start":550.66,"end":575.455,"text":"司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺"},{"start":576.235,"end":596.834,"text":"還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要相關的累計處理還有活動"},{"start":603.319,"end":619.912,"text":"所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取 叫好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比6因為我們現在但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比6"},{"start":631.34,"end":632.681,"text":"那我問一個問題 心社人員 心理師 社工 本身能不能夠去協助教化人員 分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的"},{"start":650.319,"end":670.451,"text":"因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許"},{"start":671.932,"end":675.654,"text":"他不是直接去做教會人員的工作 但也許可以在一些課程啦 講習啦 或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃 是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的 畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上 我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分"},{"start":694.222,"end":702.987,"text":"那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員 協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少我提醒一下"},{"start":718.442,"end":737.921,"text":"一 你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄 雲林第二監獄都完成了但它還是超收喔 我要提醒一下部長它還是超收 它還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進 OK"},{"start":743.746,"end":769.952,"text":"最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧報告委員我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎"},{"start":772.489,"end":787.487,"text":"目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地"},{"start":789.77,"end":813.759,"text":"好 那就加油 那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個 幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會"},{"start":815.354,"end":829.379,"text":"用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權他是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來"},{"start":831.616,"end":844.365,"text":"把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了"},{"start":845.816,"end":849.679,"text":"第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話"},{"start":865.829,"end":874.476,"text":"那對 我在程序發言請問一下這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎 你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法庭在審查高溫的時候再發表發言好嗎這個該是一個的"},{"start":893.132,"end":894.893,"text":"大家不要講 這樣啦因為我們還沒有審法條麻煩各位沒有審法條那吳委員"},{"start":914.139,"end":917.423,"text":"如果委員搞不清楚憲法 那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚是你在違憲我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了就是我的權宜問題不要再違憲了"},{"start":931.658,"end":940.603,"text":"請宗憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了OK 好我在跟您這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會來 沒關係啦 我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時1分）謝謝主席。有請鄭部長跟周署長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦！今天一整個早上我關心到很多委員針對獄政改革、戒護人力都有很多著墨，也提出很多正向的政策解方，但我認為除了要從人力的增補下手，其實空間的擴建更不可缺，畢竟空間會導引人的行為，如果超收的狀況沒有解決，在高度壓力跟高風險人員聚在一起的時候，就可能發生各種不好的狀況。除了檢討人力，空間、空間、空間，我要提醒你們，空間跟人力是缺一不可的。","首先，我對於你們今天的報告並不滿意，監獄收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多，但我看到你們是選擇性的公開。我看了法務部的報告，我看到矯正署的報告，你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員施以暴行的案件，這5年來有301件，甚至112年到113年，一年之間增加了32件，增加非常多。5年來，每年平均有60件，但你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴。如果以最近來說，我相信今天召委安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的，不管在高雄監獄是戒護人員對於受刑人性侵，或者是2025年臺東泰源監獄管理員毆打受刑人的暴力事件，乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌，也是教職人員對收容人，所以我要再一次確認一下，你們提供的資料每年約60件的獄所衝突事件，你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴，是這樣嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：委員提到比如管理人員凌虐人犯，包括高雄監獄是另外一種，要收容人幫他口交，是我們主動發覺移請地檢署偵辦……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教職人員施以不當的行為，是這個意思嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：對，但那是個案。"],["吳委員思瑤：高雄監獄的事件呢？臺東泰源跟嘉義……"],["周署長輝煌：高雄監獄現在在一審當中。"],["吳委員思瑤：署長，您先回答我這個問題，我認為你們不要選擇性的去記錄或者公開。我就問您這個問題，你們所謂的5年來301件，你們進行記錄的都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎？還是有including教職員也不當的？"],["周署長輝煌：是以收容人攻擊管理人員。"],["吳委員思瑤：每一個個案都有背後的原因，但施暴事件在獄所裡面就是不容。部長，我也要提醒你們，不管是誰對誰的施暴，就像我過去在教育及文化委員會，校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣，我們歷經校園反霸凌的歷程是都先只蒐集生對生的霸凌，而沒有關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大而且不斷在增加的樣態。我要說的是，我們既然要了解監獄獄政改革的需求，就要解析各種暴力行為的可能，所以在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗。部長，您同意吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意。我想在監所發生的各種暴力態樣很多，委員關心的各種態樣，我們全部都會注意並且防治。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣的檢討報告，需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析，才能夠對症下藥，才能夠清楚地解決問題，OK？我先提醒一下，我並不接受這樣的選擇性公開，希望你們未來改進。我看到你們對於個案有做了一些檢視，我就不再贅述。但是我要提到我今天的主題，我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到，監所的擴建、改建工程是重要的，因為今天大家都在講人力，我還是會提到人力，但我要提醒擴建跟改建更是重要的。","空間會影響收容品質，所以我第二個不滿意是你們今天的報告，你們always、always、always，其實你們之前的報告都會提到，獄所的超收不到1%。如果就數字來講，確實就核定的容額到實質的收容人數，或許是成立的，不到1%。但是部長知道，我站在這個質詢臺每一次都告訴你，臺北地區、桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重，對不對？中彰投也是很嚴重的，高屏地區也是嚴重的，你不能夠拿宜花東、離島或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數，最終來說超收不到1%，好像空間還OK，這樣的解讀我也不接受。右邊的表格是我多次質詢都提出來的，監獄超收59%，女子監獄更是100%，看守所90%超收，女子看守所高達100%超收，所以這就是我關切的空間問題。我要支持你們大破大立地去爭取預算進行擴建工程，OK？所以超收不到1%這件事情，以後不要一直拿來說嘴，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指教。剛才委員關心監所擴建的問題，我們目前在進行的就是八德外役監跟彰化看守所。另外，剛才委員有提到幾個比較緊迫的，包括桃園女子監獄、臺北看守所及臺北女子看守所，這部分的遷擴建問題我們現在在規劃中。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我知道，我後也有替你們彙整到。如果先就人力的部分，確實是因為超收嚴重、戒護業務繁重，我覺得這些都是非戰之罪，大家在很惡劣的環境裡頭，在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作，尤其面對高風險人員，當然造成離退率非常高，它是一個惡性循環，所以署長很辛苦，即便您離開或是退休，我相信您依舊關心獄所的整個改革。以國際的報告，你們今天的報告自己都很懇切地看到了，臺灣的戒護人力比是1比11.14，遠差於國際標準。我用一個總表來說，今天你們的報告凸顯的是戒護人員1比11，事實上在獄所裡頭還包括教化人員、心社人員跟職訓人員，OK！簡報左邊的黑色字體是司改國是會議訂定的目標，司改國是訂定的目標，它是目標、它是理想，它相對就是比較高規，但是如果我們對照起來，有關戒護人力，你們要補709人，補完也是1.98，跟司改國是會議的1比8，可能你們還要再努力，理想就是長遠的目標。","至於教化人員的部分，司改國是會議建議是1比100，我們2025年實施的現況是1比138位左右，還是有精進的空間；乃至於心社人員反而是我們比較餘裕的，司改國是會的目標是1個心社人員服務300個收容人，但我們現在其實做得更好，我們是1位就可以輔導協助212位，所以我們有可以做得更好的，也有已經達標的，但是也有我們要迎頭跟上的，所以我用這個總表要提醒你們，今天的專報focus在戒護人員，但是在教化人員人力短缺，心社人員是有餘裕的，能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他分工？針對這個部分署長你們是不是有思考到？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們現在教誨師的教化人力比是1比136。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，OK，如果這邊更好……"],["周署長輝煌：教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外，有時候他還要相關的累進處遇還有活動。"],["吳委員思瑤：他的loading很重，對啊！"],["周署長輝煌：所以我們也會在適當的時機爭取教化人力。"],["吳委員思瑤：再補，好。"],["周署長輝煌：但是以目前來講應該是戒護人力，現在如果以1比9.8來講，我們覺得還是不足，希望能夠爭取到1比6，以往我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：那就比司改國是會議要求更高，很好。"],["周署長輝煌：為什麼是1比6，因為我們現在……"],["吳委員思瑤：努力，但是你現在都1比9.8，你要到1比6？好，我祝福你……"],["周署長輝煌：1比6的目的是所謂的女性名額，我們不要把它限制，我們將來……"],["吳委員思瑤：我問一個問題，心社人員，這些心理師、社工本身能不能夠協助教化人員，分擔一下他現在的loading？因為這是超標的。"],["周署長輝煌：因為心理師有心理師的專業，所以跟教誨師是不同的。"],["吳委員思瑤：我當然知道，但能不能夠在……"],["周署長輝煌：不能把心理師拿去作為教化人員使用，這些心理師會抗議的。"],["吳委員思瑤：OK！好，那沒問題，我只是看到我們可以做到社工跟心理師滿足現有的需求，我認為他不是直接去做教化人員的工作，但也許可以在一些課程、講習或者是一些藝文活動部分的規劃，是不是能夠做更彈性的作為？這是我拋出來的建議，畢竟我沒有在獄所第一線工作，我看到數字就會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分。另外，請你們提供職訓人員，就是技訓人員，協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育，我不曉得實際的狀況是1比多少。如果……"],["周署長輝煌：目前並沒有這個數據。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你回頭再統計給我，好嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：可以。"],["吳委員思瑤：再來，我提醒一下，依你們現在已經完工的監獄，臺北監獄、宜蘭監獄及雲林第二監獄都完成了，但還是超收，我要提醒一下部長它還是超收，它還是有空間loading過重的問題。您剛剛所說推動中的八德外役監和彰化看守所都可以增加收容2,271名跟1,188名，很好！推動中，持續挺進，OK。最後規劃中的女子看守所跟臺北看守所的遷建，這是一個大的事情，目前的預算規劃，照期程上都沒有問題吧？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們目前臺北看守所跟臺北女子看守所擴建工程完工後，預計會增加1,200個收容額。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，加起來沒有錯，我知道，現在這個期程都還順暢嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：目前我們司法園區在規劃當中。"],["吳委員思瑤：這會是相對比較根本解決北臺灣地區收容超收的問題，好不好？這個部分立法院會持續支持。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們預計115年會取得用地。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那就加油，這就是我們現在箭在弦上最重要的方案，幾位請回。","最後就是要跟主席請示一下，因為今天我們排審的是監察院組織法，我只是提醒一下，我不希望司法及法制委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會，用修法的方式凌駕憲法所賦予行政權的人事任命權，它是違憲的，你用法律限縮、用法律把立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭，這又是違憲了，我是認為這樣的修法有待商榷，立法院不要再違憲了。","第二個，因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作，當然國民黨內部的意見似乎還有分歧當中，到底你們是不是要修憲廢監院呢？如果你們確定了就是要廢監院，用修憲的方式的話的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問這是程序發言嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我在程序發言，我在程序發言，我在程序發言，我在請教……"],["主席：下午吧！我們審條文的時候再講。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，這是在開記者會嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我在程序發言。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是什麼程序發言？你是會議詢問嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：我是會議詢問，我是會議詢問啊！"],["主席：吳委員、吳委員，先停下來，這樣啦！不是，我們還沒有審條文……"],["吳委員思瑤：我是說既然已經要修憲廢監院，你們現在又來修法……"],["王委員鴻薇：請他在審查條文的時候再發表，好嗎？"],["主席：我知道……"],["吳委員思瑤：這彼此是扞格的……"],["王委員鴻薇：這不是開記者會，這裡不是開記者會的場所啊！"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，有人一直在干擾我的發言，有人在干擾發言。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問這是什麼發言？"],["吳委員思瑤：你先制止他的發言。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也要質詢，你已經干擾到我了，已經影響到我……"],["主席：大家不要講了、大家不要講了，這樣啦！我們還沒有審法條，麻煩各位，還沒有審法條，如果吳委員搞不清楚憲法，請去看憲法增修條文第七條，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：亂扣帽子，誰搞不清楚？是你在違憲，我做出一個司法及法制委員會委員的提醒，不要再違憲了，這是我的權宜問題。"],["主席：沒關係，如果不懂憲法，我們請各位去看憲法增修條文第七條……"],["吳委員思瑤：請不要再違憲了，請宗憲召委不要永遠評論別的委員的發言……"],["主席：請吳委員……我在這邊請各位看憲法增修條文第七條，監察委員必須跳脫黨派……"],["吳委員思瑤：我只是提醒臺灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了，OK！好，我不再這裡跟您爭論了……"],["主席：算了，連請你講哪一條都講不出來，在這邊跟我說違憲，這就是民進黨委員的水準……"],["吳委員思瑤：這是最不講道理、最不懂憲法的司法及法制委員會。"],["主席：來，沒關係啦！我跟你講，我在這邊講的很簡單，我已經講出憲法增修條文第幾條，依據第幾條進行修法，如果不懂憲法的，在那邊給我鬼扯說我們違憲，請告訴我，你講的違憲是違第幾條……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦！還要讓憲法法庭……"],["主席：我在這邊跟各位說，修法的依據是憲法增修條文第七條，所以瞭解法律再來跟我們談……"],["吳委員思瑤：好……說不贏人家，只會……"],["主席：立法院不是馬戲團，不要在立法院這邊秀下限，請說第幾條的時候說明清楚，這是我的作法、法律人的作法，不要在那邊說別人違憲的時候講不出第幾條，我問你一句第幾條，你還是講不出來，不要這樣子。我們現在休息。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","黃國昌","王義川","陳培瑜","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","羅智強","吳思瑤","劉書彬","林國成","麥玉珍","陳昭姿","張啓楷","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","林倩綺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-06-16"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「鑑於近來矯正\n監所暴力衝突事件頻傳，如何維護『矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線』及相關獄政策進作為，包括\n提升戒護人力資源」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續併案審查（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具\n「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案、（二）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「監\n察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「監察院國家人權委\n員會組織法第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00006"}}}