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{\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 713.69, \"end\": 713.71, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 713.71, \"end\": 713.81, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 713.81, \"end\": 713.83, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 713.83, \"end\": 713.85, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 713.85, \"end\": 713.91, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"寫\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 713.91, \"end\": 713.97, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 713.97, \"end\": 713.99, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 713.99, \"end\": 714.13, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 714.13, \"end\": 714.15, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 714.15, \"end\": 714.37, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 714.37, \"end\": 714.39, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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0.799}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 715.471, \"end\": 715.491, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 715.491, \"end\": 715.611, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 715.611, \"end\": 715.671, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 715.671, \"end\": 715.691, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 715.691, \"end\": 715.711, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 715.711, \"end\": 715.731, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 715.731, \"end\": 715.751, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 715.751, \"end\": 715.771, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 715.771, \"end\": 715.831, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 715.831, \"end\": 715.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 715.851, \"end\": 715.951, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 715.951, \"end\": 715.971, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 733.35, \"end\": 734.033, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 734.033, \"end\": 734.134, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 734.134, \"end\": 734.234, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 734.234, \"end\": 734.556, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 734.556, \"end\": 734.797, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 734.797, \"end\": 734.957, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 734.957, \"end\": 735.038, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 735.038, \"end\": 735.158, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 735.158, \"end\": 735.882, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"佩\", \"start\": 735.882, \"end\": 736.082, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"奕\", \"start\": 736.082, \"end\": 736.263, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 736.263, \"end\": 736.283, \"score\": 0.284}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,475 --> 00:00:29,440\n有請國科會副主委好林副主委劉委員早好主委早我們看到的這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器嗎沒有對不起先暫停一下先暫停一下\n\n2\n00:00:30,558 --> 00:00:32,970\nOK好我先試試看OK可以好\n\n3\n00:00:35,083 --> 00:01:00,211\n因為在五月二十九號的時候呢在解凍國科會的預算有提到的是在三個科學園區它的淨零碳排的這個事情然後呢六月十號的時候我們看到的是收到了關於會的這個報告那這裡面呈現出來的是讓人家很嚇一大跳的我們可以先看一下就是當初問的是排碳量耗電量跟用水量科學園區到底是多少然後呢\n\n4\n00:01:00,891 --> 00:01:28,605\n看到這邊部分的有給了但是你可以看到這個資料三個科學園區是不一樣的有儒科中科跟南科結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起的看到這個右邊裡面的資料卻是把三個科學園區從一百年一百一十年到一百一十年分別放在一起這個情況之下他們三個差別有區別但是你沒有呈現出來而且用水用電暫判的比例在台灣的比例也沒有放出來\n\n5\n00:01:29,905 --> 00:01:35,306\n你們提到說三年的幾資料當中可是有一年例如說113年的這個排碳資料部分因為還沒有到今年要控告所以沒有出來可是這些資料裡面我們怎麼會知道他在你們三個科學園區裡面總共17個大小小的科學園區裡面他的真相到底是怎麼樣沒辦法探求這個低氣凝碳排的成果啊我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的怎麼做的科研研究呢主委您請回答\n\n6\n00:01:57,252 --> 00:02:00,114\n那個比較細的資料應該都有我們那個會後再補充給那個劉委員細的資料全部都有那我可以大概跟委員說明一下那基本上來講整個有三個園區管理局有12個科學園區它的這個用電量差不多占台灣總用電量快要到20%\n\n7\n00:02:22,990 --> 00:02:47,539\n那排碳量大概是百分之十那這個量其實是非常的大所以你們目標我也沒看到你們目標在哪裡淨營碳排這部分喔等一下我想說你們這個時候國際標竿當初吳主委的時候有提到的部分那您副主委這部分你也是主管這個業務在科學源泉業務所以請這部分就在兩個星期之內我想就是請要提供到本辦公室來去做資料提供跟報告好嗎\n\n8\n00:02:48,539 --> 00:03:04,953\n好可以OK下一個我們看到另外我想要再追蹤的是台灣的綠電足夠供應廠商的需求您剛才說的這部分用電大概20%對不對那我們現在再從你們給的資料的呈現出來的是等於說要達到R100尤其是高階的半導體的這個部分等等的那現在是\n\n9\n00:03:06,894 --> 00:03:24,308\n這個到今年的時候都有330億度但是我們看實際上面來看看2050年是到2030年是400億度這也都沒問題這是你可以看到我們本辦就從其他資料當中去把它彙整出來大家可以看到台積電的部分是全國用的是整個台積電是223億度但是在\n\n10\n00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:34,056\n再生能源的這部分的時候呢全國只今年就剛才說的2023年只供應了366億度事實上根本遠遠沒有超過沒辦法達到這個情況那科學園區總電量你剛才說的2765億度那現在只供應366億度根本也都不夠\n\n11\n00:03:48,147 --> 00:03:52,450\n那如果再往下看的情況是10-1%的情況喔那台積電我們再看看未來情況是2030年他必須要他自己講他目標沒有到R100但是他說40-60%這部分大概也是需要450度可是全國再生能源也是到400度這個情況之下你就可以知道遠遠是不夠於發展的對不對他的所需\n\n12\n00:04:08,740 --> 00:04:13,463\n台積電都不夠囉,那我們繼續往下看,這邊有廠商的這個供應的分量區,它是職工的,是給電廠,是直接給科學園區沒錯,那看到也有在綠營的部分也都呈現出來了,可是事實上就剛才所說的,電網的跟實際調度的情況之下,深圳在綠電配比的情況之下,只能滿足到30到50%的這樣的部分需求,\n\n13\n00:04:29,733 --> 00:04:35,061\n好那我現在問的部分我們看看整個科學園區喔再看看在台積電如果就一個廠商來講來看看的時候我先問一下您認為那個林副主委請問你認為台積電擴廠的外移原因是什麼\n\n14\n00:04:43,869 --> 00:05:05,568\n我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況剛好最近有一個演講我有整理了這些數據目前台灣再生能源的發電量佔總發電量的已經到12.5%現在大概就有300多億度今年年底一定可以達到366億度現在就已經300多億度然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度就是綠電你們昨天的資料給到366億度\n\n15\n00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:17,602\n對對對我是說到今年年底然後那個您所秀的那個經濟部2030年只有400億度那是舊的資料其實到了2026年我個人預計這個綠電應該就有接近到500億度對但是他們供應RE的話多少\n\n16\n00:05:27,492 --> 00:05:56,226\n比重的能夠讓那個RE的廠商能夠達到呢我覺得是絕對夠的因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度那目前原居的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多好那我回到這部分你這個後兩次要再補給我但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外的原因是什麼其實基本上台灣的土地其實是不夠的所以基本上只有土地而已嗎當然還有其他相對應的資源但是應該講哪些資源\n\n17\n00:05:57,742 --> 00:06:22,736\n土地然後還有水資源還有各方面電有吧應該都有應該都有而且是綠電嘛對不對因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛對不對但是我是覺得綠電如果正常的成長應該是會夠那它會壞是因為它這幾年的成長的幅度太大了它不去往外擴張它也沒有辦法繼續的成長這是我的看法好那我們現在講它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題\n\n18\n00:06:30,826 --> 00:06:54,233\n您是科學研究人員,您這個部分應該可以從學術興趣回答我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少,因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的好,你這樣回答,那我們繼續往下看根據台積電的這個部分來看的時候,就剛才已經其實大概就只有到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分資料那也許有在調整,可是距離他要求的部分差距差了很遠\n\n19\n00:06:54,853 --> 00:07:07,220\n那我們看看囉現在台積電他大家全世界都知道他到日本了他先到美國到日本他到德國我們看看在美國的部分呢他在亞利桑那州的情況電力結構當中有27%再生能源16%等等最重要的是他保證他非碳的能源的是\n\n20\n00:07:11,542 --> 00:07:35,455\n保證是同百分之百的這個情況因為這個亞利桑那州的這個電力公司跟他這樣講那我們再看看所以美國能滿足美國廠能夠滿足他非他能源的需求這是淨零碳排需要的目標第二個部分看到的是日積電啦日積電這一部分呢他也是提到的是因為九州電網裡面提到他現在就是他本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源26%\n\n21\n00:07:36,696 --> 00:07:56,449\n非碳能源51%那當然他只要送去一個台積電也沒問題所以他也九州電力公司也宣手全綠電供應的協議也是這樣子所以日本熊本電廠熊本線能夠滿足他的非碳能源需求這也是OK的喔那我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分德國他本身自由再生能源是54%但是綠能保證的部分至少62%那供應給他也都沒問題其他部分更好65到95%現在都沒問題所以德國也是供應綠電也是沒有問題可是台灣呢我們現在看看\n\n22\n00:08:07,136 --> 00:08:19,825\n台積電裡面的最重要的一個它是Apple的廠商裡面最重要的尤其是有些獨家的供應廠商這個部分所以它是2030年就表現到100喔100%喔那我們繼續往下看在這邊呈現出來的話前面你就會看到2025年就好像其他國家都三個廠都已經達到100%了那我們呢我們看到我們台灣的廠的部分2030年大概30到50%這是從台積電下的資料拿出來的它就算是它自己提到說2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠這部分\n\n23\n00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:45,306\n的確出現到這個問題就跟主席說一下就是在一分鐘左右就結束掉那可以看到所以如果你是台積電的董事長您認為台灣從現在到2050年的發展結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳盤的目標嗎\n\n24\n00:08:52,281 --> 00:09:09,412\n原來如果照原來的發電的結構到了205年綠電是60%以上60到70%而已一定可以滿足那個台積電的目標因為他已經外移到別的地方去了這部分也是有這部分的需求\n\n25\n00:09:10,453 --> 00:09:30,895\n這部分我想你講的是2050年可是他2030年就必須要達到了耶你沒有聽到2030年需求的響嗎2030年的需求也可以達到現在是說台積電生意真的太好了他的成長的幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拼命的在想辦法去meet這方面的需要\n\n26\n00:09:31,135 --> 00:09:45,891\n但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求有一個必定的限制條件對不對我們當然希望在地能源一直在發展沒有錯但是這部分廠商它必須有國際性的規劃它部分它現在2030年Apple的需求就是很大了這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去\n\n27\n00:09:49,215 --> 00:10:10,587\n那最終我們現在看到的是目前至少在二零現在的情況之下台積電依依國企的需求還包括的是他自己要理性的去做探討這部分有達到這種情形那所以他就必須有這樣子的和所謂的非碳能源的部分事實上是很重要的部分好那最後結果太空的部分我就回答就是再做一個部分那三十秒就請問一下在\n\n28\n00:10:14,699 --> 00:10:35,028\n舉經選定的屏東縣的滿洲鄉九棚村那這個地方因為你報告到昨天為止的時候看到這個你們也做了一個公聽會等等那他到底這個面積還有多少人口還有土地的產權現在目前是需要去購買是公家還是私家的還有最重要在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要去承認它對漁業的影響是怎麼樣環境影響評估是怎麼樣回饋經濟是怎麼樣那是不是可以簡單回答一下請\n\n29\n00:10:41,011 --> 00:11:05,301\n它的面積25公頃土地產權它大部分都公有地所以處理起來相對的容易然後最主要是我們在做的時候我們會順便的把地方的經濟也把它還有基礎建設也會把它建起來其實對目前的屏東縣來講縣長還有當地的住民都是非常的歡迎以上簡短的報告謝謝\n\n30\n00:11:06,101 --> 00:11:26,751\n那最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是什麼因為他們已經強調這裡屏東縣立委也非常強調這裡我們可以看到屏東的現在科學園區是在在屏東市它距離有114公里來回去程就要2.5小時車程怎麼去招商呢這部分那怎麼樣科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支用太空園區你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n\n31\n00:11:27,892 --> 00:11:40,936\n好未來有一些整備還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區會在那邊進行以上那這個距離呢交通設備距離就沒有什麼關係嗎\n\n32\n00:11:44,264 --> 00:11:55,971\n你們沒有回答這個問題是不是可以書面報告再跟劉委員好那就這樣子那也謝謝主席的寬容大量謝謝好謝謝劉委員主席幫忙就說之後做書面報告想寫書面報告再給劉委員我們就請那個男科一起給劉委員好謝謝幫忙不是要來可能要說明一下好謝謝副主委謝謝好謝謝劉書斌委員\n\n33\n00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:16,283\n請回副主委請回好我們接下來請吳佩奕委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9475\t29440\t有請國科會副主委好 林副主委劉委員早好 主委早我們看到的這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器嗎沒有對不起 先暫停一下先暫停一下\n30558\t32970\tOK 好 我先試試看 OK 可以好\n35083\t60211\t因為在五月二十九號的時候呢在解凍國科會的預算有提到的是在三個科學園區它的淨零碳排的這個事情然後呢六月十號的時候我們看到的是收到了關於會的這個報告那這裡面呈現出來的是讓人家很嚇一大跳的我們可以先看一下就是當初問的是排碳量耗電量跟用水量科學園區到底是多少然後呢\n60891\t88605\t看到這邊部分的有給了但是你可以看到這個資料三個科學園區是不一樣的有儒科中科跟南科結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起的看到這個右邊裡面的資料卻是把三個科學園區從一百年一百一十年到一百一十年分別放在一起這個情況之下他們三個差別有區別但是你沒有呈現出來而且用水用電暫判的比例在台灣的比例也沒有放出來\n89905\t95306\t你們提到說三年的幾資料當中可是有一年例如說113年的這個排碳資料部分因為還沒有到今年要控告所以沒有出來可是這些資料裡面我們怎麼會知道他在你們三個科學園區裡面總共17個大小小的科學園區裡面他的真相到底是怎麼樣沒辦法探求這個低氣凝碳排的成果啊我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的怎麼做的科研研究呢主委您請回答\n117252\t120114\t那個比較細的資料應該都有我們那個會後再補充給那個劉委員細的資料全部都有那我可以大概跟委員說明一下那基本上來講整個有三個園區管理局有12個科學園區它的這個用電量差不多占台灣總用電量快要到20%\n142990\t167539\t那排碳量大概是百分之十那這個量其實是非常的大所以你們目標 我也沒看到你們目標在哪裡 淨營碳排這部分喔 等一下我想說你們這個時候國際標竿當初吳主委的時候有提到的部分那您副主委這部分 你也是主管這個業務在科學源泉業務所以請這部分就在兩個星期之內我想就是請要提供到本辦公室來去做資料提供跟報告 好嗎\n168539\t184953\t好 可以OK 下一個我們看到另外我想要再追蹤的是台灣的綠電足夠供應廠商的需求您剛才說的這部分用電大概20%對不對那我們現在再從你們給的資料的呈現出來的是等於說要達到R100尤其是高階的半導體的這個部分等等的那現在是\n186894\t204308\t這個到今年的時候都有330億度但是我們看實際上面來看看2050年是到2030年是400億度這也都沒問題這是你可以看到我們本辦就從其他資料當中去把它彙整出來大家可以看到台積電的部分是全國用的是整個台積電是223億度但是在\n207290\t214056\t再生能源的這部分的時候呢全國只今年就剛才說的2023年只供應了366億度事實上根本遠遠沒有超過沒辦法達到這個情況那科學園區總電量你剛才說的2765億度那現在只供應366億度根本也都不夠\n228147\t232450\t那如果再往下看的情況是10-1%的情況喔那台積電我們再看看未來情況是2030年他必須要他自己講他目標沒有到R100但是他說40-60%這部分大概也是需要450度可是全國再生能源也是到400度這個情況之下你就可以知道遠遠是不夠於發展的對不對他的所需\n248740\t253463\t台積電都不夠囉,那我們繼續往下看,這邊有廠商的這個供應的分量區,它是職工的,是給電廠,是直接給科學園區沒錯,那看到也有在綠營的部分也都呈現出來了,可是事實上就剛才所說的,電網的跟實際調度的情況之下,深圳在綠電配比的情況之下,只能滿足到30到50%的這樣的部分需求,\n269733\t275061\t好那我現在問的部分我們看看整個科學園區喔再看看在台積電如果就一個廠商來講來看看的時候我先問一下您認為那個林副主委請問你認為台積電擴廠的外移原因是什麼\n283869\t305568\t我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況剛好最近有一個演講我有整理了這些數據目前台灣再生能源的發電量佔總發電量的已經到12.5%現在大概就有300多億度今年年底一定可以達到366億度現在就已經300多億度然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度就是綠電你們昨天的資料給到366億度\n311316\t317602\t對對對我是說到今年年底然後那個您所秀的那個經濟部2030年只有400億度那是舊的資料其實到了2026年我個人預計這個綠電應該就有接近到500億度對 但是他們供應RE的話多少\n327492\t356226\t比重的能夠讓那個RE的廠商能夠達到呢我覺得是絕對夠的因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度那目前原居的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多好那我回到這部分你這個後兩次要再補給我但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外的原因是什麼其實基本上台灣的土地其實是不夠的所以基本上只有土地而已嗎當然還有其他相對應的資源但是應該講哪些資源\n357742\t382736\t土地然後還有水資源還有各方面電有吧應該都有應該都有而且是綠電嘛對不對因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛對不對但是我是覺得綠電如果正常的成長應該是會夠那它會壞是因為它這幾年的成長的幅度太大了它不去往外擴張它也沒有辦法繼續的成長這是我的看法好那我們現在講它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題\n390826\t414233\t您是科學研究人員,您這個部分應該可以從學術興趣回答我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少,因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的好,你這樣回答,那我們繼續往下看根據台積電的這個部分來看的時候,就剛才已經其實大概就只有到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分資料那也許有在調整,可是距離他要求的部分差距差了很遠\n414853\t427220\t那我們看看囉現在台積電他 大家全世界都知道他到日本了他先到美國到日本他到德國我們看看在美國的部分呢他在亞利桑那州的情況電力結構當中有27%再生能源16%等等最重要的是他保證他非碳的能源的是\n431542\t455455\t保證是同百分之百的這個情況因為這個亞利桑那州的這個電力公司跟他這樣講那我們再看看所以美國能滿足美國廠能夠滿足他非他能源的需求這是淨零碳排需要的目標第二個部分看到的是日積電啦日積電這一部分呢他也是提到的是因為九州電網裡面提到他現在就是他本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源26%\n456696\t476449\t非碳能源51%那當然他只要送去一個台積電也沒問題所以他也九州電力公司也宣手全綠電供應的協議也是這樣子所以日本熊本電廠熊本線能夠滿足他的非碳能源需求這也是OK的喔那我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分德國他本身自由再生能源是54%但是綠能保證的部分至少62%那供應給他也都沒問題其他部分更好65到95%現在都沒問題所以德國也是供應綠電也是沒有問題可是台灣呢我們現在看看\n487136\t499825\t台積電裡面的最重要的一個它是Apple的廠商裡面最重要的尤其是有些獨家的供應廠商這個部分所以它是2030年就表現到100喔100%喔那我們繼續往下看在這邊呈現出來的話前面你就會看到2025年就好像其他國家都三個廠都已經達到100%了那我們呢我們看到我們台灣的廠的部分2030年大概30到50%這是從台積電下的資料拿出來的它就算是它自己提到說2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠這部分\n516836\t525306\t的確出現到這個問題就跟主席說一下就是在一分鐘左右就結束掉那可以看到所以如果你是台積電的董事長您認為台灣從現在到2050年的發展結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳盤的目標嗎\n532281\t549412\t原來如果照原來的發電的結構到了205年綠電是60%以上60到70%而已一定可以滿足那個台積電的目標因為他已經外移到別的地方去了這部分也是有這部分的需求\n550453\t570895\t這部分我想你講的是2050年可是他2030年就必須要達到了耶你沒有聽到2030年需求的響嗎2030年的需求也可以達到現在是說台積電生意真的太好了他的成長的幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拼命的在想辦法去meet這方面的需要\n571135\t585891\t但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求有一個必定的限制條件對不對我們當然希望在地能源一直在發展沒有錯但是這部分廠商它必須有國際性的規劃它部分它現在2030年Apple的需求就是很大了這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去\n589215\t610587\t那最終我們現在看到的是目前至少在二零現在的情況之下台積電依依國企的需求還包括的是他自己要理性的去做探討這部分有達到這種情形那所以他就必須有這樣子的和所謂的非碳能源的部分事實上是很重要的部分好那最後結果太空的部分我就回答就是再做一個部分那三十秒就請問一下在\n614699\t635028\t舉經選定的屏東縣的滿洲鄉九棚村那這個地方因為你報告到昨天為止的時候看到這個你們也做了一個公聽會等等那他到底這個面積還有多少人口還有土地的產權現在目前是需要去購買是公家還是私家的還有最重要在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要去承認它對漁業的影響是怎麼樣環境影響評估是怎麼樣回饋經濟是怎麼樣那是不是可以簡單回答一下請\n641011\t665301\t它的面積25公頃土地產權它大部分都公有地所以處理起來相對的容易然後最主要是我們在做的時候我們會順便的把地方的經濟也把它還有基礎建設也會把它建起來其實對目前的屏東縣來講縣長還有當地的住民都是非常的歡迎以上簡短的報告 謝謝\n666101\t686751\t那最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是什麼因為他們已經強調這裡 屏東縣立委也非常強調這裡我們可以看到 屏東的現在科學園區是在在屏東市 它距離有114公里來回去程就要2.5小時車程怎麼去招商呢 這部分那怎麼樣 科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支用太空園區你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n687892\t700936\t好 未來有一些整備還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區會在那邊進行 以上那這個距離呢 交通設備距離就沒有什麼關係嗎\n704264\t715971\t你們沒有回答這個問題是不是可以書面報告再跟劉委員好 那就這樣子那也謝謝主席的寬容大量 謝謝好 謝謝劉委員主席幫忙就說之後做書面報告想寫書面報告再給劉委員我們就請那個男科一起給劉委員好 謝謝幫忙不是要來可能要說明一下好 謝謝副主委 謝謝好 謝謝劉書斌委員\n733350\t736283\t請回副主委請回好我們接下來請吳佩奕委員\n","txt":"有請國科會副主委好 林副主委劉委員早好 主委早我們看到的這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器嗎沒有對不起 先暫停一下先暫停一下\nOK 好 我先試試看 OK 可以好\n因為在五月二十九號的時候呢在解凍國科會的預算有提到的是在三個科學園區它的淨零碳排的這個事情然後呢六月十號的時候我們看到的是收到了關於會的這個報告那這裡面呈現出來的是讓人家很嚇一大跳的我們可以先看一下就是當初問的是排碳量耗電量跟用水量科學園區到底是多少然後呢\n看到這邊部分的有給了但是你可以看到這個資料三個科學園區是不一樣的有儒科中科跟南科結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起的看到這個右邊裡面的資料卻是把三個科學園區從一百年一百一十年到一百一十年分別放在一起這個情況之下他們三個差別有區別但是你沒有呈現出來而且用水用電暫判的比例在台灣的比例也沒有放出來\n你們提到說三年的幾資料當中可是有一年例如說113年的這個排碳資料部分因為還沒有到今年要控告所以沒有出來可是這些資料裡面我們怎麼會知道他在你們三個科學園區裡面總共17個大小小的科學園區裡面他的真相到底是怎麼樣沒辦法探求這個低氣凝碳排的成果啊我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的怎麼做的科研研究呢主委您請回答\n那個比較細的資料應該都有我們那個會後再補充給那個劉委員細的資料全部都有那我可以大概跟委員說明一下那基本上來講整個有三個園區管理局有12個科學園區它的這個用電量差不多占台灣總用電量快要到20%\n那排碳量大概是百分之十那這個量其實是非常的大所以你們目標 我也沒看到你們目標在哪裡 淨營碳排這部分喔 等一下我想說你們這個時候國際標竿當初吳主委的時候有提到的部分那您副主委這部分 你也是主管這個業務在科學源泉業務所以請這部分就在兩個星期之內我想就是請要提供到本辦公室來去做資料提供跟報告 好嗎\n好 可以OK 下一個我們看到另外我想要再追蹤的是台灣的綠電足夠供應廠商的需求您剛才說的這部分用電大概20%對不對那我們現在再從你們給的資料的呈現出來的是等於說要達到R100尤其是高階的半導體的這個部分等等的那現在是\n這個到今年的時候都有330億度但是我們看實際上面來看看2050年是到2030年是400億度這也都沒問題這是你可以看到我們本辦就從其他資料當中去把它彙整出來大家可以看到台積電的部分是全國用的是整個台積電是223億度但是在\n再生能源的這部分的時候呢全國只今年就剛才說的2023年只供應了366億度事實上根本遠遠沒有超過沒辦法達到這個情況那科學園區總電量你剛才說的2765億度那現在只供應366億度根本也都不夠\n那如果再往下看的情況是10-1%的情況喔那台積電我們再看看未來情況是2030年他必須要他自己講他目標沒有到R100但是他說40-60%這部分大概也是需要450度可是全國再生能源也是到400度這個情況之下你就可以知道遠遠是不夠於發展的對不對他的所需\n台積電都不夠囉,那我們繼續往下看,這邊有廠商的這個供應的分量區,它是職工的,是給電廠,是直接給科學園區沒錯,那看到也有在綠營的部分也都呈現出來了,可是事實上就剛才所說的,電網的跟實際調度的情況之下,深圳在綠電配比的情況之下,只能滿足到30到50%的這樣的部分需求,\n好那我現在問的部分我們看看整個科學園區喔再看看在台積電如果就一個廠商來講來看看的時候我先問一下您認為那個林副主委請問你認為台積電擴廠的外移原因是什麼\n我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況剛好最近有一個演講我有整理了這些數據目前台灣再生能源的發電量佔總發電量的已經到12.5%現在大概就有300多億度今年年底一定可以達到366億度現在就已經300多億度然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度就是綠電你們昨天的資料給到366億度\n對對對我是說到今年年底然後那個您所秀的那個經濟部2030年只有400億度那是舊的資料其實到了2026年我個人預計這個綠電應該就有接近到500億度對 但是他們供應RE的話多少\n比重的能夠讓那個RE的廠商能夠達到呢我覺得是絕對夠的因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度那目前原居的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多好那我回到這部分你這個後兩次要再補給我但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外的原因是什麼其實基本上台灣的土地其實是不夠的所以基本上只有土地而已嗎當然還有其他相對應的資源但是應該講哪些資源\n土地然後還有水資源還有各方面電有吧應該都有應該都有而且是綠電嘛對不對因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛對不對但是我是覺得綠電如果正常的成長應該是會夠那它會壞是因為它這幾年的成長的幅度太大了它不去往外擴張它也沒有辦法繼續的成長這是我的看法好那我們現在講它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題\n您是科學研究人員,您這個部分應該可以從學術興趣回答我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少,因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的好,你這樣回答,那我們繼續往下看根據台積電的這個部分來看的時候,就剛才已經其實大概就只有到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分資料那也許有在調整,可是距離他要求的部分差距差了很遠\n那我們看看囉現在台積電他 大家全世界都知道他到日本了他先到美國到日本他到德國我們看看在美國的部分呢他在亞利桑那州的情況電力結構當中有27%再生能源16%等等最重要的是他保證他非碳的能源的是\n保證是同百分之百的這個情況因為這個亞利桑那州的這個電力公司跟他這樣講那我們再看看所以美國能滿足美國廠能夠滿足他非他能源的需求這是淨零碳排需要的目標第二個部分看到的是日積電啦日積電這一部分呢他也是提到的是因為九州電網裡面提到他現在就是他本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源26%\n非碳能源51%那當然他只要送去一個台積電也沒問題所以他也九州電力公司也宣手全綠電供應的協議也是這樣子所以日本熊本電廠熊本線能夠滿足他的非碳能源需求這也是OK的喔那我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分德國他本身自由再生能源是54%但是綠能保證的部分至少62%那供應給他也都沒問題其他部分更好65到95%現在都沒問題所以德國也是供應綠電也是沒有問題可是台灣呢我們現在看看\n台積電裡面的最重要的一個它是Apple的廠商裡面最重要的尤其是有些獨家的供應廠商這個部分所以它是2030年就表現到100喔100%喔那我們繼續往下看在這邊呈現出來的話前面你就會看到2025年就好像其他國家都三個廠都已經達到100%了那我們呢我們看到我們台灣的廠的部分2030年大概30到50%這是從台積電下的資料拿出來的它就算是它自己提到說2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠這部分\n的確出現到這個問題就跟主席說一下就是在一分鐘左右就結束掉那可以看到所以如果你是台積電的董事長您認為台灣從現在到2050年的發展結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳盤的目標嗎\n原來如果照原來的發電的結構到了205年綠電是60%以上60到70%而已一定可以滿足那個台積電的目標因為他已經外移到別的地方去了這部分也是有這部分的需求\n這部分我想你講的是2050年可是他2030年就必須要達到了耶你沒有聽到2030年需求的響嗎2030年的需求也可以達到現在是說台積電生意真的太好了他的成長的幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拼命的在想辦法去meet這方面的需要\n但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求有一個必定的限制條件對不對我們當然希望在地能源一直在發展沒有錯但是這部分廠商它必須有國際性的規劃它部分它現在2030年Apple的需求就是很大了這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去\n那最終我們現在看到的是目前至少在二零現在的情況之下台積電依依國企的需求還包括的是他自己要理性的去做探討這部分有達到這種情形那所以他就必須有這樣子的和所謂的非碳能源的部分事實上是很重要的部分好那最後結果太空的部分我就回答就是再做一個部分那三十秒就請問一下在\n舉經選定的屏東縣的滿洲鄉九棚村那這個地方因為你報告到昨天為止的時候看到這個你們也做了一個公聽會等等那他到底這個面積還有多少人口還有土地的產權現在目前是需要去購買是公家還是私家的還有最重要在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要去承認它對漁業的影響是怎麼樣環境影響評估是怎麼樣回饋經濟是怎麼樣那是不是可以簡單回答一下請\n它的面積25公頃土地產權它大部分都公有地所以處理起來相對的容易然後最主要是我們在做的時候我們會順便的把地方的經濟也把它還有基礎建設也會把它建起來其實對目前的屏東縣來講縣長還有當地的住民都是非常的歡迎以上簡短的報告 謝謝\n那最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是什麼因為他們已經強調這裡 屏東縣立委也非常強調這裡我們可以看到 屏東的現在科學園區是在在屏東市 它距離有114公里來回去程就要2.5小時車程怎麼去招商呢 這部分那怎麼樣 科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支用太空園區你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n好 未來有一些整備還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區會在那邊進行 以上那這個距離呢 交通設備距離就沒有什麼關係嗎\n你們沒有回答這個問題是不是可以書面報告再跟劉委員好 那就這樣子那也謝謝主席的寬容大量 謝謝好 謝謝劉委員主席幫忙就說之後做書面報告想寫書面報告再給劉委員我們就請那個男科一起給劉委員好 謝謝幫忙不是要來可能要說明一下好 謝謝副主委 謝謝好 謝謝劉書斌委員\n請回副主委請回好我們接下來請吳佩奕委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.475 --> 00:29.440\n有請國科會副主委好林副主委劉委員早好主委早我們看到的這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器嗎沒有對不起先暫停一下先暫停一下\n\n00:30.558 --> 00:32.970\nOK好我先試試看OK可以好\n\n00:35.083 --> 01:00.211\n因為在五月二十九號的時候呢在解凍國科會的預算有提到的是在三個科學園區它的淨零碳排的這個事情然後呢六月十號的時候我們看到的是收到了關於會的這個報告那這裡面呈現出來的是讓人家很嚇一大跳的我們可以先看一下就是當初問的是排碳量耗電量跟用水量科學園區到底是多少然後呢\n\n01:00.891 --> 01:28.605\n看到這邊部分的有給了但是你可以看到這個資料三個科學園區是不一樣的有儒科中科跟南科結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起的看到這個右邊裡面的資料卻是把三個科學園區從一百年一百一十年到一百一十年分別放在一起這個情況之下他們三個差別有區別但是你沒有呈現出來而且用水用電暫判的比例在台灣的比例也沒有放出來\n\n01:29.905 --> 01:35.306\n你們提到說三年的幾資料當中可是有一年例如說113年的這個排碳資料部分因為還沒有到今年要控告所以沒有出來可是這些資料裡面我們怎麼會知道他在你們三個科學園區裡面總共17個大小小的科學園區裡面他的真相到底是怎麼樣沒辦法探求這個低氣凝碳排的成果啊我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的怎麼做的科研研究呢主委您請回答\n\n01:57.252 --> 02:00.114\n那個比較細的資料應該都有我們那個會後再補充給那個劉委員細的資料全部都有那我可以大概跟委員說明一下那基本上來講整個有三個園區管理局有12個科學園區它的這個用電量差不多占台灣總用電量快要到20%\n\n02:22.990 --> 02:47.539\n那排碳量大概是百分之十那這個量其實是非常的大所以你們目標我也沒看到你們目標在哪裡淨營碳排這部分喔等一下我想說你們這個時候國際標竿當初吳主委的時候有提到的部分那您副主委這部分你也是主管這個業務在科學源泉業務所以請這部分就在兩個星期之內我想就是請要提供到本辦公室來去做資料提供跟報告好嗎\n\n02:48.539 --> 03:04.953\n好可以OK下一個我們看到另外我想要再追蹤的是台灣的綠電足夠供應廠商的需求您剛才說的這部分用電大概20%對不對那我們現在再從你們給的資料的呈現出來的是等於說要達到R100尤其是高階的半導體的這個部分等等的那現在是\n\n03:06.894 --> 03:24.308\n這個到今年的時候都有330億度但是我們看實際上面來看看2050年是到2030年是400億度這也都沒問題這是你可以看到我們本辦就從其他資料當中去把它彙整出來大家可以看到台積電的部分是全國用的是整個台積電是223億度但是在\n\n03:27.290 --> 03:34.056\n再生能源的這部分的時候呢全國只今年就剛才說的2023年只供應了366億度事實上根本遠遠沒有超過沒辦法達到這個情況那科學園區總電量你剛才說的2765億度那現在只供應366億度根本也都不夠\n\n03:48.147 --> 03:52.450\n那如果再往下看的情況是10-1%的情況喔那台積電我們再看看未來情況是2030年他必須要他自己講他目標沒有到R100但是他說40-60%這部分大概也是需要450度可是全國再生能源也是到400度這個情況之下你就可以知道遠遠是不夠於發展的對不對他的所需\n\n04:08.740 --> 04:13.463\n台積電都不夠囉,那我們繼續往下看,這邊有廠商的這個供應的分量區,它是職工的,是給電廠,是直接給科學園區沒錯,那看到也有在綠營的部分也都呈現出來了,可是事實上就剛才所說的,電網的跟實際調度的情況之下,深圳在綠電配比的情況之下,只能滿足到30到50%的這樣的部分需求,\n\n04:29.733 --> 04:35.061\n好那我現在問的部分我們看看整個科學園區喔再看看在台積電如果就一個廠商來講來看看的時候我先問一下您認為那個林副主委請問你認為台積電擴廠的外移原因是什麼\n\n04:43.869 --> 05:05.568\n我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況剛好最近有一個演講我有整理了這些數據目前台灣再生能源的發電量佔總發電量的已經到12.5%現在大概就有300多億度今年年底一定可以達到366億度現在就已經300多億度然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度就是綠電你們昨天的資料給到366億度\n\n05:11.316 --> 05:17.602\n對對對我是說到今年年底然後那個您所秀的那個經濟部2030年只有400億度那是舊的資料其實到了2026年我個人預計這個綠電應該就有接近到500億度對但是他們供應RE的話多少\n\n05:27.492 --> 05:56.226\n比重的能夠讓那個RE的廠商能夠達到呢我覺得是絕對夠的因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度那目前原居的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多好那我回到這部分你這個後兩次要再補給我但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外的原因是什麼其實基本上台灣的土地其實是不夠的所以基本上只有土地而已嗎當然還有其他相對應的資源但是應該講哪些資源\n\n05:57.742 --> 06:22.736\n土地然後還有水資源還有各方面電有吧應該都有應該都有而且是綠電嘛對不對因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛對不對但是我是覺得綠電如果正常的成長應該是會夠那它會壞是因為它這幾年的成長的幅度太大了它不去往外擴張它也沒有辦法繼續的成長這是我的看法好那我們現在講它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題\n\n06:30.826 --> 06:54.233\n您是科學研究人員,您這個部分應該可以從學術興趣回答我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少,因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的好,你這樣回答,那我們繼續往下看根據台積電的這個部分來看的時候,就剛才已經其實大概就只有到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分資料那也許有在調整,可是距離他要求的部分差距差了很遠\n\n06:54.853 --> 07:07.220\n那我們看看囉現在台積電他大家全世界都知道他到日本了他先到美國到日本他到德國我們看看在美國的部分呢他在亞利桑那州的情況電力結構當中有27%再生能源16%等等最重要的是他保證他非碳的能源的是\n\n07:11.542 --> 07:35.455\n保證是同百分之百的這個情況因為這個亞利桑那州的這個電力公司跟他這樣講那我們再看看所以美國能滿足美國廠能夠滿足他非他能源的需求這是淨零碳排需要的目標第二個部分看到的是日積電啦日積電這一部分呢他也是提到的是因為九州電網裡面提到他現在就是他本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源26%\n\n07:36.696 --> 07:56.449\n非碳能源51%那當然他只要送去一個台積電也沒問題所以他也九州電力公司也宣手全綠電供應的協議也是這樣子所以日本熊本電廠熊本線能夠滿足他的非碳能源需求這也是OK的喔那我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分德國他本身自由再生能源是54%但是綠能保證的部分至少62%那供應給他也都沒問題其他部分更好65到95%現在都沒問題所以德國也是供應綠電也是沒有問題可是台灣呢我們現在看看\n\n08:07.136 --> 08:19.825\n台積電裡面的最重要的一個它是Apple的廠商裡面最重要的尤其是有些獨家的供應廠商這個部分所以它是2030年就表現到100喔100%喔那我們繼續往下看在這邊呈現出來的話前面你就會看到2025年就好像其他國家都三個廠都已經達到100%了那我們呢我們看到我們台灣的廠的部分2030年大概30到50%這是從台積電下的資料拿出來的它就算是它自己提到說2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠這部分\n\n08:36.836 --> 08:45.306\n的確出現到這個問題就跟主席說一下就是在一分鐘左右就結束掉那可以看到所以如果你是台積電的董事長您認為台灣從現在到2050年的發展結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳盤的目標嗎\n\n08:52.281 --> 09:09.412\n原來如果照原來的發電的結構到了205年綠電是60%以上60到70%而已一定可以滿足那個台積電的目標因為他已經外移到別的地方去了這部分也是有這部分的需求\n\n09:10.453 --> 09:30.895\n這部分我想你講的是2050年可是他2030年就必須要達到了耶你沒有聽到2030年需求的響嗎2030年的需求也可以達到現在是說台積電生意真的太好了他的成長的幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拼命的在想辦法去meet這方面的需要\n\n09:31.135 --> 09:45.891\n但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求有一個必定的限制條件對不對我們當然希望在地能源一直在發展沒有錯但是這部分廠商它必須有國際性的規劃它部分它現在2030年Apple的需求就是很大了這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去\n\n09:49.215 --> 10:10.587\n那最終我們現在看到的是目前至少在二零現在的情況之下台積電依依國企的需求還包括的是他自己要理性的去做探討這部分有達到這種情形那所以他就必須有這樣子的和所謂的非碳能源的部分事實上是很重要的部分好那最後結果太空的部分我就回答就是再做一個部分那三十秒就請問一下在\n\n10:14.699 --> 10:35.028\n舉經選定的屏東縣的滿洲鄉九棚村那這個地方因為你報告到昨天為止的時候看到這個你們也做了一個公聽會等等那他到底這個面積還有多少人口還有土地的產權現在目前是需要去購買是公家還是私家的還有最重要在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要去承認它對漁業的影響是怎麼樣環境影響評估是怎麼樣回饋經濟是怎麼樣那是不是可以簡單回答一下請\n\n10:41.011 --> 11:05.301\n它的面積25公頃土地產權它大部分都公有地所以處理起來相對的容易然後最主要是我們在做的時候我們會順便的把地方的經濟也把它還有基礎建設也會把它建起來其實對目前的屏東縣來講縣長還有當地的住民都是非常的歡迎以上簡短的報告謝謝\n\n11:06.101 --> 11:26.751\n那最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是什麼因為他們已經強調這裡屏東縣立委也非常強調這裡我們可以看到屏東的現在科學園區是在在屏東市它距離有114公里來回去程就要2.5小時車程怎麼去招商呢這部分那怎麼樣科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支用太空園區你們的規劃是怎麼樣\n\n11:27.892 --> 11:40.936\n好未來有一些整備還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區會在那邊進行以上那這個距離呢交通設備距離就沒有什麼關係嗎\n\n11:44.264 --> 11:55.971\n你們沒有回答這個問題是不是可以書面報告再跟劉委員好那就這樣子那也謝謝主席的寬容大量謝謝好謝謝劉委員主席幫忙就說之後做書面報告想寫書面報告再給劉委員我們就請那個男科一起給劉委員好謝謝幫忙不是要來可能要說明一下好謝謝副主委謝謝好謝謝劉書斌委員\n\n12:13.350 --> 12:16.283\n請回副主委請回好我們接下來請吳佩奕委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.475,"end":29.44,"text":"有請國科會副主委好 林副主委劉委員早好 主委早我們看到的這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器嗎沒有對不起 先暫停一下先暫停一下"},{"start":30.558,"end":32.97,"text":"OK 好 我先試試看 OK 可以好"},{"start":35.083,"end":60.211,"text":"因為在五月二十九號的時候呢在解凍國科會的預算有提到的是在三個科學園區它的淨零碳排的這個事情然後呢六月十號的時候我們看到的是收到了關於會的這個報告那這裡面呈現出來的是讓人家很嚇一大跳的我們可以先看一下就是當初問的是排碳量耗電量跟用水量科學園區到底是多少然後呢"},{"start":60.891,"end":88.605,"text":"看到這邊部分的有給了但是你可以看到這個資料三個科學園區是不一樣的有儒科中科跟南科結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起的看到這個右邊裡面的資料卻是把三個科學園區從一百年一百一十年到一百一十年分別放在一起這個情況之下他們三個差別有區別但是你沒有呈現出來而且用水用電暫判的比例在台灣的比例也沒有放出來"},{"start":89.905,"end":95.306,"text":"你們提到說三年的幾資料當中可是有一年例如說113年的這個排碳資料部分因為還沒有到今年要控告所以沒有出來可是這些資料裡面我們怎麼會知道他在你們三個科學園區裡面總共17個大小小的科學園區裡面他的真相到底是怎麼樣沒辦法探求這個低氣凝碳排的成果啊我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的怎麼做的科研研究呢主委您請回答"},{"start":117.252,"end":120.114,"text":"那個比較細的資料應該都有我們那個會後再補充給那個劉委員細的資料全部都有那我可以大概跟委員說明一下那基本上來講整個有三個園區管理局有12個科學園區它的這個用電量差不多占台灣總用電量快要到20%"},{"start":142.99,"end":167.539,"text":"那排碳量大概是百分之十那這個量其實是非常的大所以你們目標 我也沒看到你們目標在哪裡 淨營碳排這部分喔 等一下我想說你們這個時候國際標竿當初吳主委的時候有提到的部分那您副主委這部分 你也是主管這個業務在科學源泉業務所以請這部分就在兩個星期之內我想就是請要提供到本辦公室來去做資料提供跟報告 好嗎"},{"start":168.539,"end":184.953,"text":"好 可以OK 下一個我們看到另外我想要再追蹤的是台灣的綠電足夠供應廠商的需求您剛才說的這部分用電大概20%對不對那我們現在再從你們給的資料的呈現出來的是等於說要達到R100尤其是高階的半導體的這個部分等等的那現在是"},{"start":186.894,"end":204.308,"text":"這個到今年的時候都有330億度但是我們看實際上面來看看2050年是到2030年是400億度這也都沒問題這是你可以看到我們本辦就從其他資料當中去把它彙整出來大家可以看到台積電的部分是全國用的是整個台積電是223億度但是在"},{"start":207.29,"end":214.056,"text":"再生能源的這部分的時候呢全國只今年就剛才說的2023年只供應了366億度事實上根本遠遠沒有超過沒辦法達到這個情況那科學園區總電量你剛才說的2765億度那現在只供應366億度根本也都不夠"},{"start":228.147,"end":232.45,"text":"那如果再往下看的情況是10-1%的情況喔那台積電我們再看看未來情況是2030年他必須要他自己講他目標沒有到R100但是他說40-60%這部分大概也是需要450度可是全國再生能源也是到400度這個情況之下你就可以知道遠遠是不夠於發展的對不對他的所需"},{"start":248.74,"end":253.463,"text":"台積電都不夠囉,那我們繼續往下看,這邊有廠商的這個供應的分量區,它是職工的,是給電廠,是直接給科學園區沒錯,那看到也有在綠營的部分也都呈現出來了,可是事實上就剛才所說的,電網的跟實際調度的情況之下,深圳在綠電配比的情況之下,只能滿足到30到50%的這樣的部分需求,"},{"start":269.733,"end":275.061,"text":"好那我現在問的部分我們看看整個科學園區喔再看看在台積電如果就一個廠商來講來看看的時候我先問一下您認為那個林副主委請問你認為台積電擴廠的外移原因是什麼"},{"start":283.869,"end":305.568,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況剛好最近有一個演講我有整理了這些數據目前台灣再生能源的發電量佔總發電量的已經到12.5%現在大概就有300多億度今年年底一定可以達到366億度現在就已經300多億度然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度就是綠電你們昨天的資料給到366億度"},{"start":311.316,"end":317.602,"text":"對對對我是說到今年年底然後那個您所秀的那個經濟部2030年只有400億度那是舊的資料其實到了2026年我個人預計這個綠電應該就有接近到500億度對 但是他們供應RE的話多少"},{"start":327.492,"end":356.226,"text":"比重的能夠讓那個RE的廠商能夠達到呢我覺得是絕對夠的因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度那目前原居的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多好那我回到這部分你這個後兩次要再補給我但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外的原因是什麼其實基本上台灣的土地其實是不夠的所以基本上只有土地而已嗎當然還有其他相對應的資源但是應該講哪些資源"},{"start":357.742,"end":382.736,"text":"土地然後還有水資源還有各方面電有吧應該都有應該都有而且是綠電嘛對不對因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛對不對但是我是覺得綠電如果正常的成長應該是會夠那它會壞是因為它這幾年的成長的幅度太大了它不去往外擴張它也沒有辦法繼續的成長這是我的看法好那我們現在講它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題"},{"start":390.826,"end":414.233,"text":"您是科學研究人員,您這個部分應該可以從學術興趣回答我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少,因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的好,你這樣回答,那我們繼續往下看根據台積電的這個部分來看的時候,就剛才已經其實大概就只有到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分資料那也許有在調整,可是距離他要求的部分差距差了很遠"},{"start":414.853,"end":427.22,"text":"那我們看看囉現在台積電他 大家全世界都知道他到日本了他先到美國到日本他到德國我們看看在美國的部分呢他在亞利桑那州的情況電力結構當中有27%再生能源16%等等最重要的是他保證他非碳的能源的是"},{"start":431.542,"end":455.455,"text":"保證是同百分之百的這個情況因為這個亞利桑那州的這個電力公司跟他這樣講那我們再看看所以美國能滿足美國廠能夠滿足他非他能源的需求這是淨零碳排需要的目標第二個部分看到的是日積電啦日積電這一部分呢他也是提到的是因為九州電網裡面提到他現在就是他本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源26%"},{"start":456.696,"end":476.449,"text":"非碳能源51%那當然他只要送去一個台積電也沒問題所以他也九州電力公司也宣手全綠電供應的協議也是這樣子所以日本熊本電廠熊本線能夠滿足他的非碳能源需求這也是OK的喔那我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分德國他本身自由再生能源是54%但是綠能保證的部分至少62%那供應給他也都沒問題其他部分更好65到95%現在都沒問題所以德國也是供應綠電也是沒有問題可是台灣呢我們現在看看"},{"start":487.136,"end":499.825,"text":"台積電裡面的最重要的一個它是Apple的廠商裡面最重要的尤其是有些獨家的供應廠商這個部分所以它是2030年就表現到100喔100%喔那我們繼續往下看在這邊呈現出來的話前面你就會看到2025年就好像其他國家都三個廠都已經達到100%了那我們呢我們看到我們台灣的廠的部分2030年大概30到50%這是從台積電下的資料拿出來的它就算是它自己提到說2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠這部分"},{"start":516.836,"end":525.306,"text":"的確出現到這個問題就跟主席說一下就是在一分鐘左右就結束掉那可以看到所以如果你是台積電的董事長您認為台灣從現在到2050年的發展結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳盤的目標嗎"},{"start":532.281,"end":549.412,"text":"原來如果照原來的發電的結構到了205年綠電是60%以上60到70%而已一定可以滿足那個台積電的目標因為他已經外移到別的地方去了這部分也是有這部分的需求"},{"start":550.453,"end":570.895,"text":"這部分我想你講的是2050年可是他2030年就必須要達到了耶你沒有聽到2030年需求的響嗎2030年的需求也可以達到現在是說台積電生意真的太好了他的成長的幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拼命的在想辦法去meet這方面的需要"},{"start":571.135,"end":585.891,"text":"但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求有一個必定的限制條件對不對我們當然希望在地能源一直在發展沒有錯但是這部分廠商它必須有國際性的規劃它部分它現在2030年Apple的需求就是很大了這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去"},{"start":589.215,"end":610.587,"text":"那最終我們現在看到的是目前至少在二零現在的情況之下台積電依依國企的需求還包括的是他自己要理性的去做探討這部分有達到這種情形那所以他就必須有這樣子的和所謂的非碳能源的部分事實上是很重要的部分好那最後結果太空的部分我就回答就是再做一個部分那三十秒就請問一下在"},{"start":614.699,"end":635.028,"text":"舉經選定的屏東縣的滿洲鄉九棚村那這個地方因為你報告到昨天為止的時候看到這個你們也做了一個公聽會等等那他到底這個面積還有多少人口還有土地的產權現在目前是需要去購買是公家還是私家的還有最重要在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要去承認它對漁業的影響是怎麼樣環境影響評估是怎麼樣回饋經濟是怎麼樣那是不是可以簡單回答一下請"},{"start":641.011,"end":665.301,"text":"它的面積25公頃土地產權它大部分都公有地所以處理起來相對的容易然後最主要是我們在做的時候我們會順便的把地方的經濟也把它還有基礎建設也會把它建起來其實對目前的屏東縣來講縣長還有當地的住民都是非常的歡迎以上簡短的報告 謝謝"},{"start":666.101,"end":686.751,"text":"那最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是什麼因為他們已經強調這裡 屏東縣立委也非常強調這裡我們可以看到 屏東的現在科學園區是在在屏東市 它距離有114公里來回去程就要2.5小時車程怎麼去招商呢 這部分那怎麼樣 科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支用太空園區你們的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":687.892,"end":700.936,"text":"好 未來有一些整備還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區會在那邊進行 以上那這個距離呢 交通設備距離就沒有什麼關係嗎"},{"start":704.264,"end":715.971,"text":"你們沒有回答這個問題是不是可以書面報告再跟劉委員好 那就這樣子那也謝謝主席的寬容大量 謝謝好 謝謝劉委員主席幫忙就說之後做書面報告想寫書面報告再給劉委員我們就請那個男科一起給劉委員好 謝謝幫忙不是要來可能要說明一下好 謝謝副主委 謝謝好 謝謝劉書斌委員"},{"start":733.35,"end":736.283,"text":"請回副主委請回好我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":153,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時26分）有請國科會副主委。"],["主席：請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員法正：劉委員早。"],["劉委員書彬：副主委早。這裡有沒有PPT的遙控器？沒有！對不起，先暫停一下。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["劉委員書彬：我先試試看，可以。好，因為5月29號解凍國科會預算有提到在3個科學園區淨零碳排的事情，然後6月10號的時候，我們收到貴會的報告，這裡面呈現出來讓人家嚇一大跳的，我們可以先看一下，當初問的是排碳量、耗電量跟用水量，科學園區到底是多少？看到這部分有給了，但是你可以看到這個資料，3個科學園區是不一樣的，有竹科、中科跟南科，結果國科會所給的資料卻是全部放在一起。大家看右邊的資料，它是把3個科學園區從110年到112年分別放在一起，這個情況之下，3個園區有區別，但是你沒有呈現出來，而且用水、用電占臺灣的比例也沒有放出來。你們提到三年的資料當中，例如113年的排碳資料今年要公告，所以還沒有算出來，可是在這些資料裡面，我們怎麼會知道在3個科學園區、總共17個大大小小的科學園區裡面，真相到底是怎麼樣？沒辦法探求到淨零碳排的成果啊！我很訝異的是國科會做事竟然是這樣做的，如此怎麼做科學研究呢？副主委，請你回答。"],["林副主任委員法正：好，比較細的資料應該都有，我們會後再補充給劉委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["林副主任委員法正：細部資料全部都有。我可以大概跟委員說明一下，基本上來講，整個有3個園區管理局、有12個科學園區，用電量差不多占臺灣總用電量快要到20%，排碳量大概是10%，這個量其實是非常地大，所以我們……"],["劉委員書彬：好。我也沒看到你們淨零碳排的目標在哪裡，這個算國際標竿，當初是吳主委有提到的部分，副主委，你也是主管科學園區的業務，就這部分在兩個星期之內請到本席辦公室提供資料跟報告，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：好，可以。"],["劉委員書彬：OK。我們看到下一個，另外，我想要再追蹤的是臺灣綠電足夠供應廠商的需求，你剛才說這部分用電大概20%，對不對？再從你們提供的資料呈現出來，等於要達到RE100，尤其是高階半導體的部分，到今年都有330億度。我們實際上來看看，2030年是400億度，這也沒問題，但你可以看到本辦公室從其他資料當中把它彙整出來，大家可以看到整個台積電用223億度，但是在再生能源的部分，今年就剛才說的，2023年只供應了366億度，事實上根本也沒有超過、沒辦法達到這個情況。你剛才說科學園區的總電量2,765億度，現在只供應366億度，根本也都不夠。如果再往下看，現在只供應到八分之一的情況，我們再看看未來台積電的情況，它自己講它的目標沒有達到RE100，但是它說2030年必需到40%到60%，這部分大概也是需要450億度，可是全國再生能源也是到400億度，在這個情況之下，你就可以知道供電遠遠是不夠發展的需求，對不對？台積電都不夠了。","我們繼續往下看，這邊有廠商供應的部分，它是直供的，電廠直接給科學園區，沒錯。我看到綠能的部分也都呈現出來了，可是就剛才所說的，電網跟實際調度現實真正在綠電配比的情況之下，只能滿足到30%到50%的需求。我們看整個科學園區，再看看台積電，如果就一個廠商來講，我先問一下林副主委，請問你認為台積電擴廠外移的原因是什麼？"],["林副主任委員法正：我先跟委員報告一下綠電的情況。"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["林副主任委員法正：剛好最近有一個演講，我整理了這些數據，目前臺灣再生能源的發電量，已經占總發電量的12.5%，現在大概就有三百多億度，今年年底一定可以達到400……"],["劉委員書彬：366億度。"],["林副主任委員法正：現在就已經三百多億度，然後到了今年年底絕對會達到400億度綠電。"],["劉委員書彬：你們昨天的資料給到366億度。"],["林副主任委員法正：沒有，對，我是說到今年年底，然後您所show的經濟部2030年只有400億度，那是舊的資料，其實到了2026年，我個人預期綠電應該就接近到500億度，所以……"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是占他們供應RE的話多少比重？能夠讓RE的廠商達到？"],["林副主任委員法正：我覺得是絕對夠的，因為到了明年就會達到接近500億度，目前園區的廠商加起來也不會有那麼多。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我回到這部分，你把這資料再補給我，但是現在重點是台積電擴廠外移的原因是什麼？"],["林副主任委員法正：其實基本上臺灣的土地是不夠的，所以基本上台積電……"],["劉委員書彬：只有土地而已嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：當然還有其他相對應的資源。"],["劉委員書彬：哪些資源？"],["林副主任委員法正：土地然後還有水資源還有各方面。"],["劉委員書彬：電有吧？"],["林副主任委員法正：應該都有。"],["劉委員書彬：應該都有，而且是綠電嘛！對不對？因為再生能源最重要的就是在地的環境嘛！對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：是，但是我是覺得綠電如果正常地成長應該是會夠，它外移是因為……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有。"],["林副主任委員法正：它這幾年的成長幅度太大了，它不去往外擴張，也沒有辦法繼續成長，這是我個人的看法。"],["劉委員書彬：好，它有沒有考慮到供應鏈要RE100的需求？台積電有沒有考慮到這個問題？您揣測，您是研究人員，這個部分應該可以從學術性去回答。"],["林副主任委員法正：我覺得這部分的比例應該比較少，因為目前綠電的發展還算是順利的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你這樣回答，那我們繼續往下看，根據台積電的這個部分來看，到2030年大概就只有到25%的部分，也許有在調整，可是距離它要求的部分差距差得很遠，我們看看現在台積電，全世界都知道，它先到美國、到日本、到德國，我們看看在美國的部分，它的亞利桑那州的情況，電力結構當中有27%、再生能源16%等等，最重要的是要保證它非碳的能源是100%，因為亞利桑那州的電力公司跟它這樣講，所以美國廠能夠滿足它非碳能源的需求，這是淨零碳排需要的目標。第二個部分看到的是日積電，因為九州電網裡面提到，現在救星是它本身自己九州裡面核能跟再生能源有26%，非碳能源有51%，當然只要供應一個台積電也沒問題，所以九州電力公司也簽署全綠電供應的協議，也是這樣子，所以日本熊本電廠、熊本縣能夠滿足它的非碳能源需求，這也是OK的。我們再看看另外一個是在德國的部分，德國本身自有再生能源是54%，但是綠能保證的部分至少62%，供應給它也都沒問題，其他部分占了65%到95%，現在都沒問題，所以德國供應綠電也是沒有問題。可是臺灣呢？我們現在看看，台積電裡面最重要的一個，它在Apple的廠商裡面是最重要的，尤其是獨家供應廠商這部分，所以它是2030年就保證要100%，我們繼續往下看，在這邊呈現出來的話，前面你就會看到，2025年的現況是其他國家的三個廠都已經達到100%，那我們呢？我們看到我們臺灣的廠的部分，2030年大概30%到50%，這是從台積電的資料拿出來的，就算它自己提到2040年全球RE100可是還是不夠，這部分的確出現這個問題。跟主席說一下，就是再1分鐘左右就結束掉。可以看到，如果你是台積電的董事長，你認為臺灣從現在到2050年的發電結構能夠滿足台積電淨零碳排的目標嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：如果照原來的發電結構，到了2050年綠電是60%以上……"],["劉委員書彬：對，60%到70%而已。"],["林副主任委員法正：所以一定可以滿足台積電的目標……"],["劉委員書彬：因為它已經外移了。"],["林副主任委員法正：照規劃一定可以。"],["劉委員書彬：因為它已經外移到別的地方去了，也是有這部分的需求，你講的是2050年，可是它2030年就必須要達到了耶，你沒有聽到2030年的需求在響嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：2030年的需求也可以達到，現在是說台積電生意真的太好了，它的成長幅度可能已經脫離了原來的規劃，所以這部分我的了解是台灣電力公司還有經濟部也拚命地在想辦法去meet這方面的需要。"],["劉委員書彬：但是你剛才講說在地能源有它的需求，有一個必定的限制條件對不對？我們當然希望再生能源是一直在發展沒有錯，但是這部分廠商必須有國際性的規劃，包括2030年Apple的需求就是很大了，這部分我們再繼續追蹤下去。"],["林副主任委員法正：好。"],["劉委員書彬：最重要的是我們現在看到的是至少現在的情況之下，台積電應國際的需求還包括它自己要理性地去做探討，這部分有達到這種情形，所以它就必須有這樣子的所謂的非碳能源的部分，事實上是很重要的部分。最後是太空的部分，我就是再做一個部分，30秒就行了，請問一下，已經選定了屏東縣滿州鄉的九棚村這個地方，因為你報告到昨天為止的時候，你們也做了一個公聽會等等，到底面積、人口多少，還有土地的產權目前是需要去購買還是公家、私家的，還有最重要的是在公聽會當中有漁撈衝擊的影響評估是必須要呈現它對漁業的影響怎麼樣、環境影響評估是怎麼樣、回饋金是怎麼樣，是不是可以簡單回答一下？"],["林副主任委員法正：好，它的面積25公頃，土地產權大部分都公有地，所以處理起來相對容易。然後最主要是我們在做的時候會順便把地方的經濟跟基礎建設建起來，其實對目前的屏東縣來講，縣長還有當地的住民都是非常歡迎，以上簡短的報告，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：好，最後一個就是屏東科學園區的招商關係是怎麼樣？因為他們已經強調這裡，屏東縣的立委也非常強調這裡，我們可以看到屏東科學園區是在屏東市，距離有114公里，去程就要2.5小時車程，怎麼去招商呢？科學園區跟生醫園區怎麼去支援太空園區？你們的規劃是怎麼樣？"],["林副主任委員法正：好，未來有一些整備，還有需要的一些關鍵技術會在科學園區裡面的太空園區裡面進行，以上。"],["劉委員書彬：那距離呢？交通這邊距離就沒有什麼關係，影響……你們沒有回答這個問題。"],["主席：是不是可以書面報告，再跟劉委員……"],["劉委員書彬：好，那就這樣子，也謝謝主席的寬容大量，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員法正：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分你一起回答，主席幫忙就是說之後做書面報告。"],["主席：詳細的書面報告再給劉委員好不好？"],["林副主任委員法正：我們就請南科一起給劉委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝，可能要來說明一下，謝謝副主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉書彬委員，副主委請回。我們接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-16","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","葛如鈞","劉書彬","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","謝龍介","張雅琳","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","徐富癸","柯志恩"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員林法正列席，就「競逐太空：國科會太空科技發展布局與\n未來藍圖」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00015"}}}