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0.911}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 818.2, \"end\": 818.38, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 818.38, \"end\": 818.72, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 818.72, \"end\": 818.96, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 818.96, \"end\": 819.281, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 819.281, \"end\": 819.561, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 819.561, \"end\": 819.701, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 819.701, \"end\": 819.881, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 819.881, \"end\": 820.201, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 820.201, \"end\": 820.401, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 820.401, \"end\": 820.582, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 820.582, \"end\": 821.322, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"歲\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 821.322, \"end\": 821.402, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 821.402, \"end\": 821.462, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 821.462, \"end\": 821.723, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 821.723, \"end\": 821.903, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 821.903, \"end\": 822.163, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 822.163, \"end\": 822.323, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 822.323, \"end\": 822.543, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 822.543, \"end\": 822.803, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 822.803, \"end\": 822.823, \"score\": 0.904}]}, {\"start\": 823.624, \"end\": 838.708, \"text\": \"所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 823.624, \"end\": 823.844, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 823.844, \"end\": 824.706, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 824.706, 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{\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 833.6, \"end\": 833.74, \"score\": 0.63}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 833.74, \"end\": 833.96, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 833.96, \"end\": 834.161, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"掌\", \"start\": 834.161, \"end\": 834.401, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"握\", \"start\": 834.401, \"end\": 834.781, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 834.781, \"end\": 834.962, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 834.962, \"end\": 835.142, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 835.142, \"end\": 835.623, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 835.623, \"end\": 836.023, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 836.023, \"end\": 836.805, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 836.805, \"end\": 837.025, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 837.025, \"end\": 837.586, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 837.586, \"end\": 837.726, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 837.726, \"end\": 838.067, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 838.067, \"end\": 838.247, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 838.247, \"end\": 838.527, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 838.527, \"end\": 838.688, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 838.688, \"end\": 838.708, \"score\": 0.969}]}, {\"start\": 839.068, \"end\": 855.657, \"text\": \"所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 839.068, \"end\": 839.228, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 839.228, \"end\": 839.388, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 839.388, \"end\": 839.528, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 839.528, \"end\": 839.768, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 839.768, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 897.409, \"end\": 897.529, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 897.529, \"end\": 897.689, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 897.689, \"end\": 898.69, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 898.69, \"end\": 899.23, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 899.23, \"end\": 899.41, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 899.41, \"end\": 899.51, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 899.51, \"end\": 899.991, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 899.991, \"end\": 900.171, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 900.171, \"end\": 900.331, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 900.331, \"end\": 900.451, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 900.451, \"end\": 901.532, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 901.532, \"end\": 901.612, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 901.612, \"end\": 901.632, \"score\": 0.178}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,615 --> 00:00:09,896\n麻煩洪部長部長早在談我們的職場育兒政策的時候往往常常都講說家長的職癌還有企業的成本還有政府的財政不過今天要提醒部長就是說\n\n2\n00:00:36,412 --> 00:00:56,670\n這個議題的最核心最不能忽略的就是孩子也就是兒童的最佳利益那兒權公約在2014年已經國內法化它第18條大家也提到說我們的國家應該盡最大努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展都有共同的責任的原則\n\n3\n00:00:57,831 --> 00:01:17,747\n那也要有享有這樣子的一個就因為父母有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施那所以想問部長說你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場那你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程\n\n4\n00:01:20,428 --> 00:01:27,538\n我們當然同意這個相關的公約的精神那當然也是希望就像剛才說的其實這個\n\n5\n00:01:30,194 --> 00:01:56,672\n兒童的養育其實父母雙方雙親其實對他有相關的責任這也是為什麼我們其實也在規劃這個讓職場更友善然後能夠讓父母雙方對兒童的養育盡他的責任的時候有一個更好更友善的環境尤其是也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方而是希望雙方都有這個共同的責任我想共同的責任是很關鍵的\n\n6\n00:01:58,919 --> 00:02:17,559\n3ILO聯合國的那個遼攻組織同樣也是這樣子的一個有這樣子的一個要求那像我們自己的兒少權法裡邊甚至民法裡邊大概都有去講到說父母跟監護人對兒童跟少年保護教養的責任\n\n7\n00:02:19,358 --> 00:02:45,324\n甚至不可以讓孩子獨處那我們的教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面有類似的一些條文也就是說家長未未夫子女的學習權益跟協助正常發展應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動所以要督促孩子的活動上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力的去配合保母\n\n8\n00:02:46,264 --> 00:03:00,476\n或者是托嬰中心有辦的活動都要去積極甚至兒少全法說如果你們這樣做到的話事實上還有一些罰則換句話說我們的國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候要照顧他\n\n9\n00:03:01,875 --> 00:03:30,135\n而且要要求家长要积极参与孩子的生活那就回到一个这个应该也很熟悉就是这些调查这是台湾长期的一个现象七成的女性没有申请家庭照顾假是一半以上是因为各年龄层都有一些育儿照顾的一些感到的困难比如说29岁以下的话还有63%在工作上他认为的他的瓶颈是\n\n10\n00:03:30,885 --> 00:03:51,260\n因為生育中會中斷子癌所以這次你大概也是因為要提出這個政策也是希望能夠照顧不離子那30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作家庭之後身心俱疲所以政府搭配的措施非常的重要可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要\n\n11\n00:03:52,781 --> 00:04:15,507\n盡到育兒的責任可是我們的嫁別的制度坦白講真的跟得上嗎像性平法裡邊我們的性工法裡面第20條我們的受僱者與家庭的成員要請家庭照顧假的時候第一個預防接種否則就是發生嚴重的疾病或其他的重大事故需親自照顧時才可以請\n\n12\n00:04:16,192 --> 00:04:41,279\n我們的家庭照顧價而且顧主會不會合價也不確定那可是孩子有很多需求所以我說上週託法的時候還討論到說未來保母未來托嬰中心如果有辦活動的話那如果今天講育嬰家三歲以下那這些人都是會碰到的那他必須要去參與甚至有特殊需求的孩子那如果學校要\n\n13\n00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:42,239\n當初當初在\n\n14\n00:05:07,028 --> 00:05:33,172\n育嬰留庭的這個假裡邊要拿出來我們就非常肯認要拿出來可是看到示範的時候兩次的示範都不是用小時或者事實上是那大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度所以難怪申請的人保母臨時有事長病毒停託課小孩需要陪伴員工想自行照顧新生兒這些的假期\n\n15\n00:05:33,932 --> 00:05:49,161\n那比較難去看到有沒有有更多元的所以想問部長家長到底能請什麼假孩子如果沒有生病這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎如果不准假的話那家長又該怎麼辦\n\n16\n00:05:50,700 --> 00:06:11,172\n其實跟委員報告其實在這段時間我們其實也跟蠻多這個企業主那產業的代表在溝通討論這事因為剛才委員談的事情裡面其實我們剛才談的一些部分裡面其實照理來說勞工如果提出雇主是不得拒絕的\n\n17\n00:06:12,273 --> 00:06:35,545\n其實很多是雇主是不得拒絕的但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種方式是那明示暗示的方式那這個不希望這個勞工請這些相關的家這個我沒清楚可是我們也在跟雇主在溝通跟討論其實現在有很多的產業也一面一直在跟我們\n\n18\n00:06:37,182 --> 00:06:57,828\n抱怨跟提醒說少子化的問題讓這個缺工造成勞動力的匱乏其實僱主一方面他們也很關心這件事情少子女化所以我也跟他們溝通說可是如果我們沒有辦法把我們的職場把它打造得更友善育兒育嬰的話那這個\n\n19\n00:07:00,451 --> 00:07:29,197\n勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低當勞工生小孩降低的時候我們的少子女化值會越嚴重少子女化越嚴重對未來整體台灣社會的勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻這其實是一個循環所以我們其實也在跟僱主溝通像這樣子的概念所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定你是不能拒絕的這部分是有明定的但這裡面確實也還有一些是僱主觀念的問題\n\n20\n00:07:30,257 --> 00:07:50,625\n當我們這樣跟僱主在溝通的時候我認為其實會有一些僱主蠻多僱主他是願意聽得下去的他也願意來看看說他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是有還可以再做調整對育兒育嬰能夠更友善的地方因為整體來說我想只要是這個活在台灣這個國家的一份子都不希望我們少子女化\n\n21\n00:07:51,565 --> 00:08:11,555\n像現在這個趨勢一直嚴重的這樣嚴重下去大家也不希望因為這會影響到社會很多層面所以這部分我們也在跟僱主在做相關的溝通要讓企業了解到因為影響的搞不好是五年十年後我們會問題更嚴峻所以可是解放都知道因為我們去年的11月13號也開了公聽會因為很多的民間團體跟專家學者\n\n22\n00:08:13,036 --> 00:08:34,123\n都在預告說那你可不可以變成是親子家不是只有育嬰留庭這樣的一個方式那因為友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年了因為2002年在訂育嬰家的時候中間有四次的變革然後加上去年的公聽會那民間解放也很多次在跟甚至\n\n23\n00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:53,592\n論證說國際大概怎麼去做所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親子假這個來做考量甚至延長到孩子小學階段因為日本事實上他們在前年的6月17號通過育兒戒護修業法裡面\n\n24\n00:08:56,093 --> 00:09:25,288\n那就已經有搭配到到小學階段都有各式各種的親子的請假方式那韓國是到8歲這個我覺得應該要去考慮為什麼因為前幾個李政次也說不考慮修法只做彈性措施可是彈性措施如果說今天你的身增加一個月可是彈性度不高的話不是有10或者是半天或者事實上是有更多元的甚至延長到更大的大齡的孩子的話\n\n25\n00:09:26,008 --> 00:09:41,650\n所以我相信要用真的事實上是蠻難的因為我們目前看到連事辦的企業都很少勞工申請的也不多如果不修法的話我覺得部長你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合如何讓勞工有法律預計來改善現在的現況\n\n26\n00:09:42,811 --> 00:10:00,296\n我想之前現在大家都確實看到之前事辦的狀況那之前事辦的狀況當然是有帶經濟的空間但我們也分析了裡面其實幾個原因包括當時事辦其實這個最低的時間其實是到三日三日到五日其實是到三日然後他其實也是讓很多的企業是自願性的來參與\n\n27\n00:10:01,997 --> 00:10:29,411\n那這答案都是當時我們現在在檢討當時事辦為什麼成效上面大家覺得會跟期待上面有一段落差的原因所以剛剛現在委員在講到比方說促進男性的育幼參與的確我們在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來當我們把這個像雲流亭他可以申請的日數在縮短的時候越縮短的時候其實男性的申請的比例就大幅的提高\n\n28\n00:10:30,231 --> 00:10:54,745\n那這的確是很有助於促成在育兒上面的雙親的平均照顧的狀況所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量是不是第一個事實上可不可以考量親子假然後把時間拉長像日本他們為了促進男性\n\n29\n00:10:55,225 --> 00:11:14,799\n他們的那個育嬰留庭給薪還給到百分之百真的讓他們男性來做參與部長再來就是我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊因為目前看到的就是說青少年就業問題呢像很多未升學未就業中錯的青少年是需要就業協助\n\n30\n00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:31,245\n跟職癌輔導的可是十多年來勞動部的救處的資源對這群年輕人來講成效事實上是非常低那這個數字也左手邊數字事實上是勞動部上週提供給我的許多的方案服務的數字都是\n\n31\n00:11:32,866 --> 00:11:45,960\n各位甚至掛鈴那過去經由民間團體倡議這個議題是交給職安署的兒少職場安全權益小組來統整可是部長請問一下你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎這之前是\n\n32\n00:11:51,924 --> 00:12:17,835\n跟委員報告這個部分的召集人是我們的李政事那我們是有定期在開會那相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身的發展組的部分我們都會在那邊提案因為這個小組有決議而且原本就是每半年大概因為我過去有參與就是說要檢討勞動部的各項方案的成效可是現在不只是成效低相關的分析也沒有有沒有去像甚至有\n\n33\n00:12:18,795 --> 00:12:45,419\n就是說現在你已經輔導有就業的那到底他們有穩定就業嗎那到底他們的整個狀況是什麼可是追蹤的數據都看不到因為我們每年有兩千多位的那個中離或處罰的少年他們就業就是生活所需而且不是去打工玩票的性質所以請問部長面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況裡邊你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效\n\n34\n00:12:47,760 --> 00:13:06,474\n我想我會再來瞭解一下目前這個兒少安全權益小組相關的決議落實的狀況我們會來看一下那也會來看一下就是說在這個小組的運作裡面有哪些議題那可能會要再去深化或延伸這部分我們會來\n\n35\n00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:18,225\n會請責任署跟法案署來這個地方來再來跟積木掌握一下另外一個就是如果我們要有很對應的政策的話照理來講你的數據要清楚可是我們\n\n36\n00:13:19,484 --> 00:13:42,823\n過去一直在倡議可不可以數據而且CRC在第一次國家國際審查的時候在2017年就一直在提醒政府部門的那個數據收集要按照比較合宜的國際的標準的那個年齡可是始終我們是18歲以下叫做我們的兒少可是你現在用到19歲所以我們沒辦法充分掌握\n\n37\n00:13:43,624 --> 00:13:58,708\n所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的\n\n38\n00:13:59,068 --> 00:14:15,657\n所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊\n\n39\n00:14:20,299 --> 00:14:43,540\n拜託請你們可以針對我們他們通常會去就業就是家裡有一些經濟狀況有困難甚至事實上是可能是沒有家庭的狀態裡邊那麼可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案那我覺得這個就業政策是不是有一些能夠去有一些好的數據能夠提供出來那以上是\n\n40\n00:14:45,122 --> 00:15:01,632\n那部長這邊可不可以兩週內把針對這兩個再給我我想我針對青少年勞動救出的這個方案的部分我兩個星期應該是可以的好不好其實我們做相關的的一些檢討或者是剛才說數據統計上面的檢視我們再提供給你謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8615\t9896\t麻煩洪部長部長早在談我們的職場育兒政策的時候往往常常都講說家長的職癌還有企業的成本還有政府的財政不過今天要提醒部長就是說\n36412\t56670\t這個議題的最核心 最不能忽略的就是孩子 也就是兒童的最佳利益那兒權公約在2014年已經國內法化 它第18條大家也提到說我們的國家應該盡最大努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展都有共同的責任的原則\n57831\t77747\t那也要有享有這樣子的一個就因為父母有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施那所以想問部長說你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場那你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程\n80428\t87538\t我們當然同意這個相關的公約的精神那當然也是希望就像剛才說的其實這個\n90194\t116672\t兒童的養育其實父母雙方雙親其實對他有相關的責任這也是為什麼我們其實也在規劃這個讓職場更友善然後能夠讓父母雙方對兒童的養育盡他的責任的時候有一個更好更友善的環境尤其是也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方而是希望雙方都有這個共同的責任我想共同的責任是很關鍵的\n118919\t137559\t3ILO聯合國的那個遼攻組織同樣也是這樣子的一個有這樣子的一個要求那像我們自己的兒少權法裡邊甚至民法裡邊大概都有去講到說父母跟監護人對兒童跟少年保護教養的責任\n139358\t165324\t甚至不可以讓孩子獨處那我們的教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面有類似的一些條文也就是說家長未未夫子女的學習權益跟協助正常發展應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動所以要督促孩子的活動上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力的去配合保母\n166264\t180476\t或者是托嬰中心有辦的活動都要去積極甚至兒少全法說如果你們這樣做到的話事實上還有一些罰則換句話說我們的國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候要照顧他\n181875\t210135\t而且要要求家长要积极参与孩子的生活那就回到一个这个应该也很熟悉就是这些调查这是台湾长期的一个现象七成的女性没有申请家庭照顾假是一半以上是因为各年龄层都有一些育儿照顾的一些感到的困难比如说29岁以下的话还有63%在工作上他认为的他的瓶颈是\n210885\t231260\t因為生育中會中斷子癌所以這次你大概也是因為要提出這個政策也是希望能夠照顧不離子那30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作家庭之後身心俱疲所以政府搭配的措施非常的重要可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要\n232781\t255507\t盡到育兒的責任 可是我們的嫁別的制度 坦白講真的跟得上嗎 像性平法裡邊我們的性工法裡面第20條我們的受僱者與家庭的成員要請家庭照顧假的時候第一個預防接種否則就是發生嚴重的疾病或其他的重大事故需親自照顧時才可以請\n256192\t281279\t我們的家庭照顧價而且顧主會不會合價也不確定那可是孩子有很多需求所以我說上週託法的時候還討論到說未來保母未來托嬰中心如果有辦活動的話那如果今天講育嬰家三歲以下那這些人都是會碰到的那他必須要去參與甚至有特殊需求的孩子那如果學校要\n281759\t282239\t當初當初在\n307028\t333172\t育嬰留庭的這個假裡邊要拿出來我們就非常肯認要拿出來可是看到示範的時候兩次的示範都不是用小時或者事實上是那大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度所以難怪申請的人保母臨時有事長病毒停託課小孩需要陪伴員工想自行照顧新生兒這些的假期\n333932\t349161\t那比較難去看到有沒有有更多元的所以想問部長家長到底能請什麼假孩子如果沒有生病這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎如果不准假的話那家長又該怎麼辦\n350700\t371172\t其實跟委員報告其實在這段時間我們其實也跟蠻多這個企業主那產業的代表在溝通討論這事因為剛才委員談的事情裡面其實我們剛才談的一些部分裡面其實照理來說勞工如果提出雇主是不得拒絕的\n372273\t395545\t其實很多是雇主是不得拒絕的但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種方式是那明示暗示的方式那這個不希望這個勞工請這些相關的家這個我沒清楚可是我們也在跟雇主在溝通跟討論其實現在有很多的產業也一面一直在跟我們\n397182\t417828\t抱怨跟提醒說少子化的問題讓這個缺工造成勞動力的匱乏其實僱主一方面他們也很關心這件事情少子女化所以我也跟他們溝通說可是如果我們沒有辦法把我們的職場把它打造得更友善育兒育嬰的話那這個\n420451\t449197\t勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低當勞工生小孩降低的時候我們的少子女化值會越嚴重少子女化越嚴重對未來整體台灣社會的勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻這其實是一個循環所以我們其實也在跟僱主溝通像這樣子的概念所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定你是不能拒絕的這部分是有明定的但這裡面確實也還有一些是僱主觀念的問題\n450257\t470625\t當我們這樣跟僱主在溝通的時候我認為其實會有一些僱主蠻多僱主他是願意聽得下去的他也願意來看看說他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是有還可以再做調整對育兒育嬰能夠更友善的地方因為整體來說我想只要是這個活在台灣這個國家的一份子都不希望我們少子女化\n471565\t491555\t像現在這個趨勢一直嚴重的這樣嚴重下去大家也不希望因為這會影響到社會很多層面所以這部分我們也在跟僱主在做相關的溝通要讓企業了解到因為影響的搞不好是五年十年後我們會問題更嚴峻所以可是解放都知道因為我們去年的11月13號也開了公聽會因為很多的民間團體跟專家學者\n493036\t514123\t都在預告說那你可不可以變成是親子家不是只有育嬰留庭這樣的一個方式那因為友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年了因為2002年在訂育嬰家的時候中間有四次的變革然後加上去年的公聽會那民間解放也很多次在跟甚至\n515724\t533592\t論證說國際大概怎麼去做所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親子假這個來做考量甚至延長到孩子小學階段因為日本事實上他們在前年的6月17號通過育兒戒護修業法裡面\n536093\t565288\t那就已經有搭配到到小學階段都有各式各種的親子的請假方式那韓國是到8歲這個我覺得應該要去考慮為什麼因為前幾個李政次也說不考慮修法只做彈性措施可是彈性措施如果說今天你的身增加一個月可是彈性度不高的話不是有10或者是半天或者事實上是有更多元的甚至延長到更大的大齡的孩子的話\n566008\t581650\t所以我相信要用真的事實上是蠻難的因為我們目前看到連事辦的企業都很少勞工申請的也不多如果不修法的話我覺得部長你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合如何讓勞工有法律預計來改善現在的現況\n582811\t600296\t我想之前現在大家都確實看到之前事辦的狀況那之前事辦的狀況當然是有帶經濟的空間但我們也分析了裡面其實幾個原因包括當時事辦其實這個最低的時間其實是到三日三日到五日其實是到三日然後他其實也是讓很多的企業是自願性的來參與\n601997\t629411\t那這答案都是當時我們現在在檢討當時事辦為什麼成效上面大家覺得會跟期待上面有一段落差的原因所以剛剛現在委員在講到比方說促進男性的育幼參與的確我們在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來當我們把這個像雲流亭他可以申請的日數在縮短的時候越縮短的時候其實男性的申請的比例就大幅的提高\n630231\t654745\t那這的確是很有助於促成在育兒上面的雙親的平均照顧的狀況所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量是不是第一個事實上可不可以考量親子假然後把時間拉長像日本他們為了促進男性\n655225\t674799\t他們的那個育嬰留庭給薪還給到百分之百真的讓他們男性來做參與部長再來就是我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊因為目前看到的就是說青少年就業問題呢像很多未升學未就業中錯的青少年是需要就業協助\n675920\t691245\t跟職癌輔導的 可是十多年來勞動部的救處的資源對這群年輕人來講 成效事實上是非常低那這個數字 也左手邊數字事實上是勞動部上週提供給我的許多的方案 服務的數字都是\n692866\t705960\t各位甚至掛鈴那過去經由民間團體倡議這個議題是交給職安署的兒少職場安全權益小組來統整可是部長請問一下你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎這之前是\n711924\t737835\t跟委員報告這個部分的召集人是我們的李政事那我們是有定期在開會那相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身的發展組的部分我們都會在那邊提案因為這個小組有決議而且原本就是每半年大概因為我過去有參與就是說要檢討勞動部的各項方案的成效可是現在不只是成效低相關的分析也沒有有沒有去像甚至有\n738795\t765419\t就是說現在你已經輔導有就業的那到底他們有穩定就業嗎那到底他們的整個狀況是什麼可是追蹤的數據都看不到因為我們每年有兩千多位的那個中離或處罰的少年他們就業就是生活所需而且不是去打工玩票的性質所以請問部長面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況裡邊你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效\n767760\t786474\t我想我會再來瞭解一下目前這個兒少安全權益小組相關的決議落實的狀況我們會來看一下那也會來看一下就是說在這個小組的運作裡面有哪些議題那可能會要再去深化或延伸這部分我們會來\n789039\t798225\t會請責任署跟法案署來這個地方來再來跟積木掌握一下另外一個就是如果我們要有很對應的政策的話照理來講你的數據要清楚可是我們\n799484\t822823\t過去一直在倡議可不可以數據而且CRC在第一次國家國際審查的時候在2017年就一直在提醒政府部門的那個數據收集要按照比較合宜的國際的標準的那個年齡可是始終我們是18歲以下叫做我們的兒少可是你現在用到19歲所以我們沒辦法充分掌握\n823624\t838708\t所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的\n839068\t855657\t所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊\n860299\t883540\t拜託請你們可以針對我們他們通常會去就業就是家裡有一些經濟狀況有困難甚至事實上是可能是沒有家庭的狀態裡邊那麼可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案那我覺得這個就業政策是不是有一些能夠去有一些好的數據能夠提供出來那以上是\n885122\t901632\t那部長這邊可不可以兩週內把針對這兩個再給我我想我針對青少年勞動救出的這個方案的部分我兩個星期應該是可以的好不好其實我們做相關的的一些檢討或者是剛才說數據統計上面的檢視我們再提供給你謝謝部長謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩洪部長部長早在談我們的職場育兒政策的時候往往常常都講說家長的職癌還有企業的成本還有政府的財政不過今天要提醒部長就是說\n這個議題的最核心 最不能忽略的就是孩子 也就是兒童的最佳利益那兒權公約在2014年已經國內法化 它第18條大家也提到說我們的國家應該盡最大努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展都有共同的責任的原則\n那也要有享有這樣子的一個就因為父母有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施那所以想問部長說你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場那你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程\n我們當然同意這個相關的公約的精神那當然也是希望就像剛才說的其實這個\n兒童的養育其實父母雙方雙親其實對他有相關的責任這也是為什麼我們其實也在規劃這個讓職場更友善然後能夠讓父母雙方對兒童的養育盡他的責任的時候有一個更好更友善的環境尤其是也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方而是希望雙方都有這個共同的責任我想共同的責任是很關鍵的\n3ILO聯合國的那個遼攻組織同樣也是這樣子的一個有這樣子的一個要求那像我們自己的兒少權法裡邊甚至民法裡邊大概都有去講到說父母跟監護人對兒童跟少年保護教養的責任\n甚至不可以讓孩子獨處那我們的教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面有類似的一些條文也就是說家長未未夫子女的學習權益跟協助正常發展應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動所以要督促孩子的活動上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力的去配合保母\n或者是托嬰中心有辦的活動都要去積極甚至兒少全法說如果你們這樣做到的話事實上還有一些罰則換句話說我們的國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候要照顧他\n而且要要求家长要积极参与孩子的生活那就回到一个这个应该也很熟悉就是这些调查这是台湾长期的一个现象七成的女性没有申请家庭照顾假是一半以上是因为各年龄层都有一些育儿照顾的一些感到的困难比如说29岁以下的话还有63%在工作上他认为的他的瓶颈是\n因為生育中會中斷子癌所以這次你大概也是因為要提出這個政策也是希望能夠照顧不離子那30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作家庭之後身心俱疲所以政府搭配的措施非常的重要可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要\n盡到育兒的責任 可是我們的嫁別的制度 坦白講真的跟得上嗎 像性平法裡邊我們的性工法裡面第20條我們的受僱者與家庭的成員要請家庭照顧假的時候第一個預防接種否則就是發生嚴重的疾病或其他的重大事故需親自照顧時才可以請\n我們的家庭照顧價而且顧主會不會合價也不確定那可是孩子有很多需求所以我說上週託法的時候還討論到說未來保母未來托嬰中心如果有辦活動的話那如果今天講育嬰家三歲以下那這些人都是會碰到的那他必須要去參與甚至有特殊需求的孩子那如果學校要\n當初當初在\n育嬰留庭的這個假裡邊要拿出來我們就非常肯認要拿出來可是看到示範的時候兩次的示範都不是用小時或者事實上是那大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度所以難怪申請的人保母臨時有事長病毒停託課小孩需要陪伴員工想自行照顧新生兒這些的假期\n那比較難去看到有沒有有更多元的所以想問部長家長到底能請什麼假孩子如果沒有生病這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎如果不准假的話那家長又該怎麼辦\n其實跟委員報告其實在這段時間我們其實也跟蠻多這個企業主那產業的代表在溝通討論這事因為剛才委員談的事情裡面其實我們剛才談的一些部分裡面其實照理來說勞工如果提出雇主是不得拒絕的\n其實很多是雇主是不得拒絕的但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種方式是那明示暗示的方式那這個不希望這個勞工請這些相關的家這個我沒清楚可是我們也在跟雇主在溝通跟討論其實現在有很多的產業也一面一直在跟我們\n抱怨跟提醒說少子化的問題讓這個缺工造成勞動力的匱乏其實僱主一方面他們也很關心這件事情少子女化所以我也跟他們溝通說可是如果我們沒有辦法把我們的職場把它打造得更友善育兒育嬰的話那這個\n勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低當勞工生小孩降低的時候我們的少子女化值會越嚴重少子女化越嚴重對未來整體台灣社會的勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻這其實是一個循環所以我們其實也在跟僱主溝通像這樣子的概念所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定你是不能拒絕的這部分是有明定的但這裡面確實也還有一些是僱主觀念的問題\n當我們這樣跟僱主在溝通的時候我認為其實會有一些僱主蠻多僱主他是願意聽得下去的他也願意來看看說他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是有還可以再做調整對育兒育嬰能夠更友善的地方因為整體來說我想只要是這個活在台灣這個國家的一份子都不希望我們少子女化\n像現在這個趨勢一直嚴重的這樣嚴重下去大家也不希望因為這會影響到社會很多層面所以這部分我們也在跟僱主在做相關的溝通要讓企業了解到因為影響的搞不好是五年十年後我們會問題更嚴峻所以可是解放都知道因為我們去年的11月13號也開了公聽會因為很多的民間團體跟專家學者\n都在預告說那你可不可以變成是親子家不是只有育嬰留庭這樣的一個方式那因為友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年了因為2002年在訂育嬰家的時候中間有四次的變革然後加上去年的公聽會那民間解放也很多次在跟甚至\n論證說國際大概怎麼去做所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親子假這個來做考量甚至延長到孩子小學階段因為日本事實上他們在前年的6月17號通過育兒戒護修業法裡面\n那就已經有搭配到到小學階段都有各式各種的親子的請假方式那韓國是到8歲這個我覺得應該要去考慮為什麼因為前幾個李政次也說不考慮修法只做彈性措施可是彈性措施如果說今天你的身增加一個月可是彈性度不高的話不是有10或者是半天或者事實上是有更多元的甚至延長到更大的大齡的孩子的話\n所以我相信要用真的事實上是蠻難的因為我們目前看到連事辦的企業都很少勞工申請的也不多如果不修法的話我覺得部長你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合如何讓勞工有法律預計來改善現在的現況\n我想之前現在大家都確實看到之前事辦的狀況那之前事辦的狀況當然是有帶經濟的空間但我們也分析了裡面其實幾個原因包括當時事辦其實這個最低的時間其實是到三日三日到五日其實是到三日然後他其實也是讓很多的企業是自願性的來參與\n那這答案都是當時我們現在在檢討當時事辦為什麼成效上面大家覺得會跟期待上面有一段落差的原因所以剛剛現在委員在講到比方說促進男性的育幼參與的確我們在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來當我們把這個像雲流亭他可以申請的日數在縮短的時候越縮短的時候其實男性的申請的比例就大幅的提高\n那這的確是很有助於促成在育兒上面的雙親的平均照顧的狀況所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量是不是第一個事實上可不可以考量親子假然後把時間拉長像日本他們為了促進男性\n他們的那個育嬰留庭給薪還給到百分之百真的讓他們男性來做參與部長再來就是我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊因為目前看到的就是說青少年就業問題呢像很多未升學未就業中錯的青少年是需要就業協助\n跟職癌輔導的 可是十多年來勞動部的救處的資源對這群年輕人來講 成效事實上是非常低那這個數字 也左手邊數字事實上是勞動部上週提供給我的許多的方案 服務的數字都是\n各位甚至掛鈴那過去經由民間團體倡議這個議題是交給職安署的兒少職場安全權益小組來統整可是部長請問一下你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎這之前是\n跟委員報告這個部分的召集人是我們的李政事那我們是有定期在開會那相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身的發展組的部分我們都會在那邊提案因為這個小組有決議而且原本就是每半年大概因為我過去有參與就是說要檢討勞動部的各項方案的成效可是現在不只是成效低相關的分析也沒有有沒有去像甚至有\n就是說現在你已經輔導有就業的那到底他們有穩定就業嗎那到底他們的整個狀況是什麼可是追蹤的數據都看不到因為我們每年有兩千多位的那個中離或處罰的少年他們就業就是生活所需而且不是去打工玩票的性質所以請問部長面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況裡邊你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效\n我想我會再來瞭解一下目前這個兒少安全權益小組相關的決議落實的狀況我們會來看一下那也會來看一下就是說在這個小組的運作裡面有哪些議題那可能會要再去深化或延伸這部分我們會來\n會請責任署跟法案署來這個地方來再來跟積木掌握一下另外一個就是如果我們要有很對應的政策的話照理來講你的數據要清楚可是我們\n過去一直在倡議可不可以數據而且CRC在第一次國家國際審查的時候在2017年就一直在提醒政府部門的那個數據收集要按照比較合宜的國際的標準的那個年齡可是始終我們是18歲以下叫做我們的兒少可是你現在用到19歲所以我們沒辦法充分掌握\n所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的\n所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊\n拜託請你們可以針對我們他們通常會去就業就是家裡有一些經濟狀況有困難甚至事實上是可能是沒有家庭的狀態裡邊那麼可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案那我覺得這個就業政策是不是有一些能夠去有一些好的數據能夠提供出來那以上是\n那部長這邊可不可以兩週內把針對這兩個再給我我想我針對青少年勞動救出的這個方案的部分我兩個星期應該是可以的好不好其實我們做相關的的一些檢討或者是剛才說數據統計上面的檢視我們再提供給你謝謝部長謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.615 --> 00:09.896\n麻煩洪部長部長早在談我們的職場育兒政策的時候往往常常都講說家長的職癌還有企業的成本還有政府的財政不過今天要提醒部長就是說\n\n00:36.412 --> 00:56.670\n這個議題的最核心最不能忽略的就是孩子也就是兒童的最佳利益那兒權公約在2014年已經國內法化它第18條大家也提到說我們的國家應該盡最大努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展都有共同的責任的原則\n\n00:57.831 --> 01:17.747\n那也要有享有這樣子的一個就因為父母有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施那所以想問部長說你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場那你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程\n\n01:20.428 --> 01:27.538\n我們當然同意這個相關的公約的精神那當然也是希望就像剛才說的其實這個\n\n01:30.194 --> 01:56.672\n兒童的養育其實父母雙方雙親其實對他有相關的責任這也是為什麼我們其實也在規劃這個讓職場更友善然後能夠讓父母雙方對兒童的養育盡他的責任的時候有一個更好更友善的環境尤其是也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方而是希望雙方都有這個共同的責任我想共同的責任是很關鍵的\n\n01:58.919 --> 02:17.559\n3ILO聯合國的那個遼攻組織同樣也是這樣子的一個有這樣子的一個要求那像我們自己的兒少權法裡邊甚至民法裡邊大概都有去講到說父母跟監護人對兒童跟少年保護教養的責任\n\n02:19.358 --> 02:45.324\n甚至不可以讓孩子獨處那我們的教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面有類似的一些條文也就是說家長未未夫子女的學習權益跟協助正常發展應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動所以要督促孩子的活動上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力的去配合保母\n\n02:46.264 --> 03:00.476\n或者是托嬰中心有辦的活動都要去積極甚至兒少全法說如果你們這樣做到的話事實上還有一些罰則換句話說我們的國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候要照顧他\n\n03:01.875 --> 03:30.135\n而且要要求家长要积极参与孩子的生活那就回到一个这个应该也很熟悉就是这些调查这是台湾长期的一个现象七成的女性没有申请家庭照顾假是一半以上是因为各年龄层都有一些育儿照顾的一些感到的困难比如说29岁以下的话还有63%在工作上他认为的他的瓶颈是\n\n03:30.885 --> 03:51.260\n因為生育中會中斷子癌所以這次你大概也是因為要提出這個政策也是希望能夠照顧不離子那30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作家庭之後身心俱疲所以政府搭配的措施非常的重要可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要\n\n03:52.781 --> 04:15.507\n盡到育兒的責任可是我們的嫁別的制度坦白講真的跟得上嗎像性平法裡邊我們的性工法裡面第20條我們的受僱者與家庭的成員要請家庭照顧假的時候第一個預防接種否則就是發生嚴重的疾病或其他的重大事故需親自照顧時才可以請\n\n04:16.192 --> 04:41.279\n我們的家庭照顧價而且顧主會不會合價也不確定那可是孩子有很多需求所以我說上週託法的時候還討論到說未來保母未來托嬰中心如果有辦活動的話那如果今天講育嬰家三歲以下那這些人都是會碰到的那他必須要去參與甚至有特殊需求的孩子那如果學校要\n\n04:41.759 --> 04:42.239\n當初當初在\n\n05:07.028 --> 05:33.172\n育嬰留庭的這個假裡邊要拿出來我們就非常肯認要拿出來可是看到示範的時候兩次的示範都不是用小時或者事實上是那大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度所以難怪申請的人保母臨時有事長病毒停託課小孩需要陪伴員工想自行照顧新生兒這些的假期\n\n05:33.932 --> 05:49.161\n那比較難去看到有沒有有更多元的所以想問部長家長到底能請什麼假孩子如果沒有生病這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎如果不准假的話那家長又該怎麼辦\n\n05:50.700 --> 06:11.172\n其實跟委員報告其實在這段時間我們其實也跟蠻多這個企業主那產業的代表在溝通討論這事因為剛才委員談的事情裡面其實我們剛才談的一些部分裡面其實照理來說勞工如果提出雇主是不得拒絕的\n\n06:12.273 --> 06:35.545\n其實很多是雇主是不得拒絕的但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種方式是那明示暗示的方式那這個不希望這個勞工請這些相關的家這個我沒清楚可是我們也在跟雇主在溝通跟討論其實現在有很多的產業也一面一直在跟我們\n\n06:37.182 --> 06:57.828\n抱怨跟提醒說少子化的問題讓這個缺工造成勞動力的匱乏其實僱主一方面他們也很關心這件事情少子女化所以我也跟他們溝通說可是如果我們沒有辦法把我們的職場把它打造得更友善育兒育嬰的話那這個\n\n07:00.451 --> 07:29.197\n勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低當勞工生小孩降低的時候我們的少子女化值會越嚴重少子女化越嚴重對未來整體台灣社會的勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻這其實是一個循環所以我們其實也在跟僱主溝通像這樣子的概念所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定你是不能拒絕的這部分是有明定的但這裡面確實也還有一些是僱主觀念的問題\n\n07:30.257 --> 07:50.625\n當我們這樣跟僱主在溝通的時候我認為其實會有一些僱主蠻多僱主他是願意聽得下去的他也願意來看看說他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是有還可以再做調整對育兒育嬰能夠更友善的地方因為整體來說我想只要是這個活在台灣這個國家的一份子都不希望我們少子女化\n\n07:51.565 --> 08:11.555\n像現在這個趨勢一直嚴重的這樣嚴重下去大家也不希望因為這會影響到社會很多層面所以這部分我們也在跟僱主在做相關的溝通要讓企業了解到因為影響的搞不好是五年十年後我們會問題更嚴峻所以可是解放都知道因為我們去年的11月13號也開了公聽會因為很多的民間團體跟專家學者\n\n08:13.036 --> 08:34.123\n都在預告說那你可不可以變成是親子家不是只有育嬰留庭這樣的一個方式那因為友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年了因為2002年在訂育嬰家的時候中間有四次的變革然後加上去年的公聽會那民間解放也很多次在跟甚至\n\n08:35.724 --> 08:53.592\n論證說國際大概怎麼去做所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親子假這個來做考量甚至延長到孩子小學階段因為日本事實上他們在前年的6月17號通過育兒戒護修業法裡面\n\n08:56.093 --> 09:25.288\n那就已經有搭配到到小學階段都有各式各種的親子的請假方式那韓國是到8歲這個我覺得應該要去考慮為什麼因為前幾個李政次也說不考慮修法只做彈性措施可是彈性措施如果說今天你的身增加一個月可是彈性度不高的話不是有10或者是半天或者事實上是有更多元的甚至延長到更大的大齡的孩子的話\n\n09:26.008 --> 09:41.650\n所以我相信要用真的事實上是蠻難的因為我們目前看到連事辦的企業都很少勞工申請的也不多如果不修法的話我覺得部長你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合如何讓勞工有法律預計來改善現在的現況\n\n09:42.811 --> 10:00.296\n我想之前現在大家都確實看到之前事辦的狀況那之前事辦的狀況當然是有帶經濟的空間但我們也分析了裡面其實幾個原因包括當時事辦其實這個最低的時間其實是到三日三日到五日其實是到三日然後他其實也是讓很多的企業是自願性的來參與\n\n10:01.997 --> 10:29.411\n那這答案都是當時我們現在在檢討當時事辦為什麼成效上面大家覺得會跟期待上面有一段落差的原因所以剛剛現在委員在講到比方說促進男性的育幼參與的確我們在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來當我們把這個像雲流亭他可以申請的日數在縮短的時候越縮短的時候其實男性的申請的比例就大幅的提高\n\n10:30.231 --> 10:54.745\n那這的確是很有助於促成在育兒上面的雙親的平均照顧的狀況所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量是不是第一個事實上可不可以考量親子假然後把時間拉長像日本他們為了促進男性\n\n10:55.225 --> 11:14.799\n他們的那個育嬰留庭給薪還給到百分之百真的讓他們男性來做參與部長再來就是我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊因為目前看到的就是說青少年就業問題呢像很多未升學未就業中錯的青少年是需要就業協助\n\n11:15.920 --> 11:31.245\n跟職癌輔導的可是十多年來勞動部的救處的資源對這群年輕人來講成效事實上是非常低那這個數字也左手邊數字事實上是勞動部上週提供給我的許多的方案服務的數字都是\n\n11:32.866 --> 11:45.960\n各位甚至掛鈴那過去經由民間團體倡議這個議題是交給職安署的兒少職場安全權益小組來統整可是部長請問一下你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎這之前是\n\n11:51.924 --> 12:17.835\n跟委員報告這個部分的召集人是我們的李政事那我們是有定期在開會那相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身的發展組的部分我們都會在那邊提案因為這個小組有決議而且原本就是每半年大概因為我過去有參與就是說要檢討勞動部的各項方案的成效可是現在不只是成效低相關的分析也沒有有沒有去像甚至有\n\n12:18.795 --> 12:45.419\n就是說現在你已經輔導有就業的那到底他們有穩定就業嗎那到底他們的整個狀況是什麼可是追蹤的數據都看不到因為我們每年有兩千多位的那個中離或處罰的少年他們就業就是生活所需而且不是去打工玩票的性質所以請問部長面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況裡邊你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效\n\n12:47.760 --> 13:06.474\n我想我會再來瞭解一下目前這個兒少安全權益小組相關的決議落實的狀況我們會來看一下那也會來看一下就是說在這個小組的運作裡面有哪些議題那可能會要再去深化或延伸這部分我們會來\n\n13:09.039 --> 13:18.225\n會請責任署跟法案署來這個地方來再來跟積木掌握一下另外一個就是如果我們要有很對應的政策的話照理來講你的數據要清楚可是我們\n\n13:19.484 --> 13:42.823\n過去一直在倡議可不可以數據而且CRC在第一次國家國際審查的時候在2017年就一直在提醒政府部門的那個數據收集要按照比較合宜的國際的標準的那個年齡可是始終我們是18歲以下叫做我們的兒少可是你現在用到19歲所以我們沒辦法充分掌握\n\n13:43.624 --> 13:58.708\n所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的\n\n13:59.068 --> 14:15.657\n所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊\n\n14:20.299 --> 14:43.540\n拜託請你們可以針對我們他們通常會去就業就是家裡有一些經濟狀況有困難甚至事實上是可能是沒有家庭的狀態裡邊那麼可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案那我覺得這個就業政策是不是有一些能夠去有一些好的數據能夠提供出來那以上是\n\n14:45.122 --> 15:01.632\n那部長這邊可不可以兩週內把針對這兩個再給我我想我針對青少年勞動救出的這個方案的部分我兩個星期應該是可以的好不好其實我們做相關的的一些檢討或者是剛才說數據統計上面的檢視我們再提供給你謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.615,"end":9.896,"text":"麻煩洪部長部長早在談我們的職場育兒政策的時候往往常常都講說家長的職癌還有企業的成本還有政府的財政不過今天要提醒部長就是說"},{"start":36.412,"end":56.67,"text":"這個議題的最核心 最不能忽略的就是孩子 也就是兒童的最佳利益那兒權公約在2014年已經國內法化 它第18條大家也提到說我們的國家應該盡最大努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展都有共同的責任的原則"},{"start":57.831,"end":77.747,"text":"那也要有享有這樣子的一個就因為父母有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施那所以想問部長說你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場那你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程"},{"start":80.428,"end":87.538,"text":"我們當然同意這個相關的公約的精神那當然也是希望就像剛才說的其實這個"},{"start":90.194,"end":116.672,"text":"兒童的養育其實父母雙方雙親其實對他有相關的責任這也是為什麼我們其實也在規劃這個讓職場更友善然後能夠讓父母雙方對兒童的養育盡他的責任的時候有一個更好更友善的環境尤其是也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方而是希望雙方都有這個共同的責任我想共同的責任是很關鍵的"},{"start":118.919,"end":137.559,"text":"3ILO聯合國的那個遼攻組織同樣也是這樣子的一個有這樣子的一個要求那像我們自己的兒少權法裡邊甚至民法裡邊大概都有去講到說父母跟監護人對兒童跟少年保護教養的責任"},{"start":139.358,"end":165.324,"text":"甚至不可以讓孩子獨處那我們的教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面有類似的一些條文也就是說家長未未夫子女的學習權益跟協助正常發展應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動所以要督促孩子的活動上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力的去配合保母"},{"start":166.264,"end":180.476,"text":"或者是托嬰中心有辦的活動都要去積極甚至兒少全法說如果你們這樣做到的話事實上還有一些罰則換句話說我們的國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候要照顧他"},{"start":181.875,"end":210.135,"text":"而且要要求家长要积极参与孩子的生活那就回到一个这个应该也很熟悉就是这些调查这是台湾长期的一个现象七成的女性没有申请家庭照顾假是一半以上是因为各年龄层都有一些育儿照顾的一些感到的困难比如说29岁以下的话还有63%在工作上他认为的他的瓶颈是"},{"start":210.885,"end":231.26,"text":"因為生育中會中斷子癌所以這次你大概也是因為要提出這個政策也是希望能夠照顧不離子那30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作家庭之後身心俱疲所以政府搭配的措施非常的重要可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要"},{"start":232.781,"end":255.507,"text":"盡到育兒的責任 可是我們的嫁別的制度 坦白講真的跟得上嗎 像性平法裡邊我們的性工法裡面第20條我們的受僱者與家庭的成員要請家庭照顧假的時候第一個預防接種否則就是發生嚴重的疾病或其他的重大事故需親自照顧時才可以請"},{"start":256.192,"end":281.279,"text":"我們的家庭照顧價而且顧主會不會合價也不確定那可是孩子有很多需求所以我說上週託法的時候還討論到說未來保母未來托嬰中心如果有辦活動的話那如果今天講育嬰家三歲以下那這些人都是會碰到的那他必須要去參與甚至有特殊需求的孩子那如果學校要"},{"start":281.759,"end":282.239,"text":"當初當初在"},{"start":307.028,"end":333.172,"text":"育嬰留庭的這個假裡邊要拿出來我們就非常肯認要拿出來可是看到示範的時候兩次的示範都不是用小時或者事實上是那大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度所以難怪申請的人保母臨時有事長病毒停託課小孩需要陪伴員工想自行照顧新生兒這些的假期"},{"start":333.932,"end":349.161,"text":"那比較難去看到有沒有有更多元的所以想問部長家長到底能請什麼假孩子如果沒有生病這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎如果不准假的話那家長又該怎麼辦"},{"start":350.7,"end":371.172,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實在這段時間我們其實也跟蠻多這個企業主那產業的代表在溝通討論這事因為剛才委員談的事情裡面其實我們剛才談的一些部分裡面其實照理來說勞工如果提出雇主是不得拒絕的"},{"start":372.273,"end":395.545,"text":"其實很多是雇主是不得拒絕的但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種方式是那明示暗示的方式那這個不希望這個勞工請這些相關的家這個我沒清楚可是我們也在跟雇主在溝通跟討論其實現在有很多的產業也一面一直在跟我們"},{"start":397.182,"end":417.828,"text":"抱怨跟提醒說少子化的問題讓這個缺工造成勞動力的匱乏其實僱主一方面他們也很關心這件事情少子女化所以我也跟他們溝通說可是如果我們沒有辦法把我們的職場把它打造得更友善育兒育嬰的話那這個"},{"start":420.451,"end":449.197,"text":"勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低當勞工生小孩降低的時候我們的少子女化值會越嚴重少子女化越嚴重對未來整體台灣社會的勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻這其實是一個循環所以我們其實也在跟僱主溝通像這樣子的概念所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定你是不能拒絕的這部分是有明定的但這裡面確實也還有一些是僱主觀念的問題"},{"start":450.257,"end":470.625,"text":"當我們這樣跟僱主在溝通的時候我認為其實會有一些僱主蠻多僱主他是願意聽得下去的他也願意來看看說他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是有還可以再做調整對育兒育嬰能夠更友善的地方因為整體來說我想只要是這個活在台灣這個國家的一份子都不希望我們少子女化"},{"start":471.565,"end":491.555,"text":"像現在這個趨勢一直嚴重的這樣嚴重下去大家也不希望因為這會影響到社會很多層面所以這部分我們也在跟僱主在做相關的溝通要讓企業了解到因為影響的搞不好是五年十年後我們會問題更嚴峻所以可是解放都知道因為我們去年的11月13號也開了公聽會因為很多的民間團體跟專家學者"},{"start":493.036,"end":514.123,"text":"都在預告說那你可不可以變成是親子家不是只有育嬰留庭這樣的一個方式那因為友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年了因為2002年在訂育嬰家的時候中間有四次的變革然後加上去年的公聽會那民間解放也很多次在跟甚至"},{"start":515.724,"end":533.592,"text":"論證說國際大概怎麼去做所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親子假這個來做考量甚至延長到孩子小學階段因為日本事實上他們在前年的6月17號通過育兒戒護修業法裡面"},{"start":536.093,"end":565.288,"text":"那就已經有搭配到到小學階段都有各式各種的親子的請假方式那韓國是到8歲這個我覺得應該要去考慮為什麼因為前幾個李政次也說不考慮修法只做彈性措施可是彈性措施如果說今天你的身增加一個月可是彈性度不高的話不是有10或者是半天或者事實上是有更多元的甚至延長到更大的大齡的孩子的話"},{"start":566.008,"end":581.65,"text":"所以我相信要用真的事實上是蠻難的因為我們目前看到連事辦的企業都很少勞工申請的也不多如果不修法的話我覺得部長你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合如何讓勞工有法律預計來改善現在的現況"},{"start":582.811,"end":600.296,"text":"我想之前現在大家都確實看到之前事辦的狀況那之前事辦的狀況當然是有帶經濟的空間但我們也分析了裡面其實幾個原因包括當時事辦其實這個最低的時間其實是到三日三日到五日其實是到三日然後他其實也是讓很多的企業是自願性的來參與"},{"start":601.997,"end":629.411,"text":"那這答案都是當時我們現在在檢討當時事辦為什麼成效上面大家覺得會跟期待上面有一段落差的原因所以剛剛現在委員在講到比方說促進男性的育幼參與的確我們在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來當我們把這個像雲流亭他可以申請的日數在縮短的時候越縮短的時候其實男性的申請的比例就大幅的提高"},{"start":630.231,"end":654.745,"text":"那這的確是很有助於促成在育兒上面的雙親的平均照顧的狀況所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量是不是第一個事實上可不可以考量親子假然後把時間拉長像日本他們為了促進男性"},{"start":655.225,"end":674.799,"text":"他們的那個育嬰留庭給薪還給到百分之百真的讓他們男性來做參與部長再來就是我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊因為目前看到的就是說青少年就業問題呢像很多未升學未就業中錯的青少年是需要就業協助"},{"start":675.92,"end":691.245,"text":"跟職癌輔導的 可是十多年來勞動部的救處的資源對這群年輕人來講 成效事實上是非常低那這個數字 也左手邊數字事實上是勞動部上週提供給我的許多的方案 服務的數字都是"},{"start":692.866,"end":705.96,"text":"各位甚至掛鈴那過去經由民間團體倡議這個議題是交給職安署的兒少職場安全權益小組來統整可是部長請問一下你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎這之前是"},{"start":711.924,"end":737.835,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的召集人是我們的李政事那我們是有定期在開會那相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身的發展組的部分我們都會在那邊提案因為這個小組有決議而且原本就是每半年大概因為我過去有參與就是說要檢討勞動部的各項方案的成效可是現在不只是成效低相關的分析也沒有有沒有去像甚至有"},{"start":738.795,"end":765.419,"text":"就是說現在你已經輔導有就業的那到底他們有穩定就業嗎那到底他們的整個狀況是什麼可是追蹤的數據都看不到因為我們每年有兩千多位的那個中離或處罰的少年他們就業就是生活所需而且不是去打工玩票的性質所以請問部長面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況裡邊你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效"},{"start":767.76,"end":786.474,"text":"我想我會再來瞭解一下目前這個兒少安全權益小組相關的決議落實的狀況我們會來看一下那也會來看一下就是說在這個小組的運作裡面有哪些議題那可能會要再去深化或延伸這部分我們會來"},{"start":789.039,"end":798.225,"text":"會請責任署跟法案署來這個地方來再來跟積木掌握一下另外一個就是如果我們要有很對應的政策的話照理來講你的數據要清楚可是我們"},{"start":799.484,"end":822.823,"text":"過去一直在倡議可不可以數據而且CRC在第一次國家國際審查的時候在2017年就一直在提醒政府部門的那個數據收集要按照比較合宜的國際的標準的那個年齡可是始終我們是18歲以下叫做我們的兒少可是你現在用到19歲所以我們沒辦法充分掌握"},{"start":823.624,"end":838.708,"text":"所以我們過去建議說你要不要有18歲以下的年齡因為我們15到16就業有另外一套措施可是17到18事實上是所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握說那到底就業的狀況是什麼是沒辦法了解的"},{"start":839.068,"end":855.657,"text":"所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請我們的勞動部這邊是不是給出一個你如果沒有這些數據的話我們坦白講我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼那你就沒有辦法定出來真的事實上是比較晚輩的18歲的未滿18歲的勞動政策所以這邊也麻煩部長這邊"},{"start":860.299,"end":883.54,"text":"拜託請你們可以針對我們他們通常會去就業就是家裡有一些經濟狀況有困難甚至事實上是可能是沒有家庭的狀態裡邊那麼可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案那我覺得這個就業政策是不是有一些能夠去有一些好的數據能夠提供出來那以上是"},{"start":885.122,"end":901.632,"text":"那部長這邊可不可以兩週內把針對這兩個再給我我想我針對青少年勞動救出的這個方案的部分我兩個星期應該是可以的好不好其實我們做相關的的一些檢討或者是剛才說數據統計上面的檢視我們再提供給你謝謝部長謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時28分）麻煩洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。在談職場育兒政策的時候，往往都提到家長的職涯、企業的成本及政府的財政，不過我今天要提醒部長，這個議題的最核心且應該最不能忽略的就是孩子，也就是兒童的最佳利益。兒權公約於2014年已經國內法化，在第十八條也提到國家應盡最大的努力來確保父母雙方都能夠對兒童的養育跟發展有共同責任的原則，也要確保就業父母的子女有權利享有他們有資格得到的育兒服務跟措施。想問部長，你是否同意這樣子的一個基本立場？你們目前的職場育兒政策有沒有把兒權公約所說的最佳利益納入到政策評估的標準跟過程？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然同意相關公約的精神，就像剛才說的，兒童的養育其實父母雙親對他有相關的責任，這也是為什麼我們也在規劃讓職場更友善，能夠讓父母雙方對兒童養育盡其責任的時候有一個更好、更友善的環境，尤其也不希望我們只是偏廢父親或母親其中一方，而是希望雙方都有共同的責任，我想共同的責任是很關鍵的。"],["林委員月琴：聯合國勞工組織（ILO）也是同樣有這樣子的一個要求，事實上我們自己的兒少權法裡面，甚至民法裡面大概都有提到父母跟監護人對兒童及少年應負保護、教養的責任，乃至不可以讓孩子獨處。在教育基本法跟國民教育法裡面也有類似的一些條文，也就是說，家長為維護子女的學習權益及協助其正常發展，應該配合學校的教學目標跟活動，所以要督促孩子的活動。上禮拜我們在討論兒托法的時候，也有委員提出版本說未來父母都要盡力去配合保母，或者是托嬰中心所辦的活動都要去積極參與，甚至兒少權法還提到，如果他沒有這樣做到的話，事實上還有一些罰則。換句話說，我們國家不是只有要求家長在孩子生病的時候照顧他，而且也要求家長要積極參與孩子的生活。","這樣就會回到一個問題，部長，你應該也很熟悉這些調查，這是臺灣長期的現象，七成的女性沒有申請家庭照顧假，是一半以上，因為各年齡層都有一些育兒照顧的困難。譬如29歲以下有63%認為他在工作上的瓶頸是因為生育會中斷職涯，所以這次你提出這個政策，也是希望能夠照顧不離職；30到39歲的大概有58%是因為工作、家庭的身心俱疲，因此政府的搭配措施非常重要。可是現行法律明明就已經要求家長要盡到育兒的責任，但是我們的假別制度，坦白講，真的跟得上嗎？像性工法第二十條，受雇者因其家庭成員得請家庭照顧假的情況有三個，第一個是預防接種，否則就是發生嚴重的疾病，或其他重大事故須親自照顧時才可以請家庭照顧假，而且雇主會不會核假也不確定，可是孩子有很多需求。上週兒托法的時候還討論到，未來保母、托嬰中心如有辦活動的話，如果今天講3歲以下的育嬰假，這些人都是會碰到的，他必須要去參與，甚至有特殊需求的孩子，如果學校要開個案研討的話，他必須也要參與，而且是必須，它是用「應」這個字，幼照法也是這樣子，相同的，幼照法跟兒托法都是有這樣子的期待。","勞工到底怎麼請假呢？要請家庭照顧假、事假、特休假嗎？如果沒有育嬰假延長的話，那合宜的親職假在哪裡？當初在育嬰留停的假裡面要拿出來，我們覺得非常肯認要拿出來，可是看到試辦的時候，兩次的試辦都不是用小時，大概都是要用天來看那個彈性程度，所以難怪申請的人……保母臨時有事、腸病毒停托課，小孩需要陪伴，員工想自行照顧新生兒，這些的假別比較難去看到有更多元的。想問部長，家長到底能請什麼假？孩子若沒有生病，這些算是法條規範的重大事故嗎？如果不准假的話，家長又該怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，這段時間我們也跟蠻多企業主、產業代表在溝通、討論這件事情，剛才委員談的事情裡面，其實委員剛才談的一些部分，照理來說勞工如果提出，雇主是不得拒絕的，其實很多雇主是不得拒絕的，但是我們的確知道雇主會用各種的方式……"],["林委員月琴：是，我想部長也很了解。"],["洪部長申翰：明示、暗示的方式，不希望勞工請這些相關的假，這個我們也清楚，所以我們也在跟雇主溝通與討論，其實現在有很多的產業也一直在跟我們抱怨跟提醒，說少子化問題的缺工造成勞動力的匱乏，其實雇主也很關心少子女化這件事情，所以我也跟他們溝通說，如果我們沒有辦法把職場打造得更友善育兒、育嬰的話，那麼勞工願意生小孩的比例就會再更降低，當勞工生小孩的意願降低時，我們的少子女化只會越嚴重，若少子女化越嚴重，對於未來整體臺灣社會勞動力的需求必定也會再更嚴峻，這其實是一個循環。我們也在跟雇主溝通像這樣子的概念，所以剛剛在講的有些部分是法律上面確實已經有明定，他是不能拒絕的，這部分是有明定的，但這裡面確實也還有一些是雇主觀念的問題，當我們這樣跟雇主在溝通的時候，我認為其實會有蠻多雇主是聽得下去的，他也願意來看看他自己在這個公司裡面相關的制度是不是還可以再做調整，對育兒、育嬰能夠更友善的地方。因為整體來說，我想只要是活在臺灣這個國家的一份子，都不希望我們少子女化像現在這個趨勢一直這樣的嚴重下去，大家也不希望，因為這會影響到社會的很多層面，所以這部分我們也在跟雇主做相關的溝通。"],["林委員月琴：對，要讓企業了解，因為影響的搞不好是5年、10年後，我們的問題會更嚴峻。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員月琴：可是解方都知道，我們去年11月13號也開了公聽會，很多的民間團體跟專家學者都在預告說你可不可以變成是親職假，不是只有育嬰留停這樣的一個方式。友善育兒的職場政策都講了很多年，2002年在訂定育嬰假的時候，中間有4次的變革，加上去年的公聽會，民間解方也很多，甚至論證說國際大概是怎麼去做的，所以我們是不是應該要去考量到更多元的方式？是不是可以育嬰假延伸為親職假來做考量？甚至延長到孩子小學階段。日本事實上在前年的6月17號通過育兒介護休業法，裡面就已經有搭配到小學階段都有各式各種親職的請假方式，韓國是到8歲，這個我覺得應該要去考慮，為什麼？因為前幾個月李政次也說不考慮修法，只做彈性措施，可是彈性措施如果說今天你增加一個月，但是彈性度不高的話，不是有時或是半天，或者是有更多元的，甚至延長到更大齡的孩子，所以我相信要用真的是蠻難的，因為我們目前看到連試辦的企業都很少，勞工申請的也不多，如果不修法的話，部長，你要怎麼讓企業能夠去願意配合？如何讓勞工有法律依據來改善現況？"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在大家都確實看到之前試辦的狀況，之前試辦的狀況當然是有待精進的空間，但我們也分析了裡面其實有幾個原因，包括當時試辦，最低的時間其實是3日，3日到5日，然後它其實也是讓很多企業自願性地來參與，我們現在在檢討當時的試辦為什麼在成效上大家會覺得跟期待上有一段落差，所以剛剛委員講到比方說促進男性的育兒參與，的確在我們相關的數據裡面是可以看得出來，像育嬰留停，當我們把他可以申請的日數再縮短的時候，其實男性申請的比例就大幅提高，這的確是有助於促成育兒上雙親平均照顧的狀況。"],["林委員月琴：所以我建議勞動部可能再去做考量，第一個，可不可以考量親職假，然後把時間拉長？像日本為了促進男性的參與，他們的育嬰留停給薪還給到百分之百，真的讓他們的男性來參與。","部長，再來我想提一個我一直很關心的青少年就業這一塊，因為目前看到的青少年就業問題，事實上有很多未升學、未就業、中輟的青少年是需要就業協助跟職涯輔導的，可是十多年來，勞動部就促的資源對這群年輕人來講，成效事實上是非常低的。簡報左手邊的數字是勞動部上週提供給我的，許多方案服務的數字都是個位數，甚至掛零。這個議題過去是經由民間團體倡議，並交給職安署的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組來統整，可是部長，請問一下，你對這個小組的運作有掌握嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這個部分的召集人是我們的李政次，我們是有定期在開會，相關的議題包括涉及到教育部或我們自己本身發展署的部分，我們都會在那邊提案，在那個平臺上討論。"],["林委員月琴：因為這個小組有決議，而且原本就是每半年……因為我過去有參與，就是說要檢討勞動部各項方案的成效，可是現在不只是成效低，連相關的分析也沒有，甚至你已經輔導過有就業的，他們有穩定就業嗎？到底他們的整個狀況是什麼？追蹤的數據都看不到，因為我們每年有兩千多位中離或觸法的少年，他們的就業就是生活所需，而且不是打工玩票的性質，所以請問部長，面對這種長期比較低效能的狀況，你怎麼去看待勞動部對青少年的服務成效？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我會再來了解一下目前兒少職場安全衛生權益小組相關的決議、落實的狀況，我們會來看一下，也會看一下在這個小組的運作裡面，有哪些議題可能要再去深化或延伸，這部分我們會請職安署跟發展署對於這個地方再更進一步掌握一下。"],["林委員月琴：另外，如果我們要有能對應的政策的話，照理來講，你的數據要清楚，可是我們過去一直在倡議可不可以明確掌握數據，而且CRC在第一次國際審查的時候，在2017年就一直提醒政府部門的數據蒐集要按照比較合宜的國際標準年齡，我們是18歲以下叫做兒少，可是你現在資料用到19歲，所以我們沒辦法充分掌握年齡。我們過去建議你要不要有18歲以下的年齡劃分，因為我們15到16歲就業有另外一套措施，可是17到18歲事實上是……所以我們就沒辦法去充分掌握到底就業的狀況是什麼，是沒辦法了解的，所以這部分我覺得是不是也要請勞動部給出一個辦法？你如果沒有這些數據的話，坦白講，我們不知道青少年整個工作樣態是什麼，你就沒有辦法訂出來比較完備的未滿18歲勞動政策。所以這邊也麻煩、拜託部長，他們會去就業，通常有一些就是家裡經濟狀況有困難，甚至可能是沒有家庭的狀態，他們可能要用我們政府的自立生活方案，這個就業政策是不是有一些好的數據能夠提供出來？部長，可不可以兩週內針對這兩個部分再給我們辦公室報告？"],["洪部長申翰：我想針對青少年勞動就促方案的部分，兩個星期應該是可以的，我們做相關的一些檢討，或者是剛才說到的數據統計上面的檢視，我們再提供給委員。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員，謝謝部長。林委員，CRC的全名是什麼？"],["林委員月琴：兒童權利公約。"],["主席：公約，好。我們繼續請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":516,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-17","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","涂權吉","劉建國","廖偉翔","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","李坤城","張雅琳","張啓楷","陳瑩","楊曜","林德福","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":443,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「營造友善職場育兒環境，落實照顧不離職政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00017"}}}