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{\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 887.954, \"end\": 887.974, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}]}, {\"start\": 889.214, \"end\": 914.321, \"text\": \"國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 889.214, \"end\": 889.494, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 889.494, \"end\": 889.814, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 889.814, \"end\": 890.294, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 890.294, \"end\": 891.275, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 891.275, \"end\": 891.535, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 891.535, \"end\": 892.015, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 892.015, \"end\": 892.315, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 892.315, \"end\": 892.715, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 892.715, \"end\": 892.875, \"score\": 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1026.615, \"end\": 1026.635, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1026.635, \"end\": 1026.655, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,790 --> 00:00:32,947\n好謝謝主席那有先請法務部謝謝麻煩法務部部長好謝謝部長部長剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了\n\n2\n00:00:35,529 --> 00:00:57,345\n可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多長阿啦超阿啦剛剛阿川委員說的\n\n3\n00:01:01,428 --> 00:01:14,907\n是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看?\n\n4\n00:01:16,737 --> 00:01:39,298\n所有的這些證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判我們都追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去\n\n5\n00:01:40,518 --> 00:01:59,049\n去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題\n\n6\n00:01:59,969 --> 00:02:25,903\n如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對\n\n7\n00:02:26,363 --> 00:02:53,552\n好所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注好不好好謝謝部長部長請回那接下來有請矯正署我們還是回到今天的主題喔\n\n8\n00:02:55,754 --> 00:03:23,239\n好署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確但是我要再次強調\n\n9\n00:03:24,239 --> 00:03:27,042\n相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:41,417 --> 00:04:01,572\n第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告\n\n11\n00:04:07,065 --> 00:04:27,992\n跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好\n\n12\n00:04:29,412 --> 00:04:48,544\n那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情\n\n13\n00:04:49,845 --> 00:05:07,130\n也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺心如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理\n\n14\n00:05:09,005 --> 00:05:28,340\n好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個\n\n15\n00:05:29,762 --> 00:05:47,862\n少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說\n\n16\n00:05:49,864 --> 00:06:08,333\n有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法\n\n17\n00:06:10,054 --> 00:06:27,803\n可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從114年4月底為止這四所教校裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了55%\n\n18\n00:06:29,304 --> 00:06:43,010\n也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂擱情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論用這個表格來看我其實臉不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下\n\n19\n00:06:44,259 --> 00:06:56,454\n報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺\n\n20\n00:07:00,939 --> 00:07:23,751\n所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動講義氣所以常常會聽到小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪\n\n21\n00:07:27,011 --> 00:07:49,247\n打架跟逗喔當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22%\n\n22\n00:07:51,088 --> 00:08:08,028\n報告委員這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在邵氏法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量\n\n23\n00:08:08,408 --> 00:08:34,155\n為什麼要把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看\n\n24\n00:08:34,895 --> 00:09:01,433\n端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到原額法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所教校的代理教師原額受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內\n\n25\n00:09:09,036 --> 00:09:27,002\n我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括\n\n26\n00:09:28,062 --> 00:09:50,571\n專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高\n\n27\n00:09:51,431 --> 00:10:18,166\n新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同\n\n28\n00:10:19,787 --> 00:10:42,864\n每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教室8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教室偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積\n\n29\n00:10:44,225 --> 00:11:01,730\n並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是\n\n30\n00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:21,339\n沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師\n\n31\n00:11:22,299 --> 00:11:42,972\n那我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系他們當然有可能是有些專業科系只是他沒有去修教育學程可是我們要問的是因為少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比較高我們如何確保不管是一聘二聘三聘的代理教師他們真的有能力\n\n32\n00:11:43,812 --> 00:11:52,497\n有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在\n\n33\n00:11:59,401 --> 00:12:18,570\n聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下8%以下\n\n34\n00:12:24,053 --> 00:12:41,699\n署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心小腳上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張\n\n35\n00:12:45,660 --> 00:13:10,934\n現在像這邊提到敦品城鎮荔枝名陽有各自的臨床心理師諮商心理師社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底它還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來\n\n36\n00:13:11,314 --> 00:13:33,834\n可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看笑角笑的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境\n\n37\n00:13:34,574 --> 00:13:52,121\n是報告委員我們除了二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要它是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營這個班級裡面它有比如教導員還有導師輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊\n\n38\n00:13:58,283 --> 00:14:19,884\n那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛\n\n39\n00:14:20,464 --> 00:14:47,974\n康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現\n\n40\n00:14:49,214 --> 00:15:14,321\n國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能\n\n41\n00:15:14,921 --> 00:15:35,801\n其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到腳下再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態\n\n42\n00:15:37,663 --> 00:16:01,888\n這也是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角少現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙\n\n43\n00:16:02,788 --> 00:16:25,062\n各位委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個爭講我們也要謝謝國教署\n\n44\n00:16:28,024 --> 00:16:50,229\n好我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟靈性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎\n\n45\n00:16:51,429 --> 00:17:06,655\n我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝署長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9790\t32947\t好 謝謝主席那有先請法務部 謝謝麻煩法務部部長好 謝謝部長部長剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了\n35529\t57345\t可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多長阿啦超阿啦剛剛阿川委員說的\n61428\t74907\t是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看?\n76737\t99298\t所有的這些證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判我們都追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去\n100518\t119049\t去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題\n119969\t145903\t如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對\n146363\t173552\t好 所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注 好不好好 謝謝部長 部長請回那接下來有請矯正署我們還是回到今天的主題喔\n175754\t203239\t好 署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確但是我要再次強調\n204239\t207042\t相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼\n221417\t241572\t第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告\n247065\t267992\t跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好\n269412\t288544\t那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情\n289845\t307130\t也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺心如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理\n309005\t328340\t好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個\n329762\t347862\t少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說\n349864\t368333\t有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法\n370054\t387803\t可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從114年4月底為止這四所教校裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了55%\n389304\t403010\t也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂擱情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論用這個表格來看我其實臉不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下\n404259\t416454\t報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺\n420939\t443751\t所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動 講義氣所以常常會聽到小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪\n447011\t469247\t打架跟逗喔當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22%\n471088\t488028\t報告委員 這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在邵氏法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量\n488408\t514155\t為什麼要把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看\n514895\t541433\t端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到原額法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所教校的代理教師原額受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內\n549036\t567002\t我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括\n568062\t590571\t專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高\n591431\t618166\t新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同\n619787\t642864\t每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教室8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教室偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積\n644225\t661730\t並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是\n662350\t681339\t沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師\n682299\t702972\t那我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系他們當然有可能是有些專業科系只是他沒有去修教育學程可是我們要問的是因為少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比較高我們如何確保不管是一聘 二聘 三聘的代理教師他們真的有能力\n703812\t712497\t有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在\n719401\t738570\t聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下8%以下\n744053\t761699\t署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心小腳上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張\n765660\t790934\t現在像這邊提到 敦品 城鎮 荔枝 名陽有各自的臨床心理師 諮商心理師 社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是 我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底它還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來\n791314\t813834\t可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看笑角笑的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境\n814574\t832121\t是 報告委員 我們除了二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要 它是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營 這個班級裡面它有比如教導員還有導師 輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊\n838283\t859884\t那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛\n860464\t887974\t康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現\n889214\t914321\t國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能\n914921\t935801\t其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到腳下再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態\n937663\t961888\t這也是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角少現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙\n962788\t985062\t各位委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個爭講我們也要謝謝國教署\n988024\t1010229\t好 我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦 播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟靈性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎\n1011429\t1026655\t我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝署長謝謝主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席那有先請法務部 謝謝麻煩法務部部長好 謝謝部長部長剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了\n可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多長阿啦超阿啦剛剛阿川委員說的\n是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看?\n所有的這些證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判我們都追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去\n去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題\n如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對\n好 所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注 好不好好 謝謝部長 部長請回那接下來有請矯正署我們還是回到今天的主題喔\n好 署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確但是我要再次強調\n相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼\n第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告\n跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好\n那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情\n也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺心如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理\n好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個\n少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說\n有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法\n可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從114年4月底為止這四所教校裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了55%\n也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂擱情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論用這個表格來看我其實臉不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下\n報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺\n所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動 講義氣所以常常會聽到小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪\n打架跟逗喔當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22%\n報告委員 這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在邵氏法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量\n為什麼要把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看\n端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到原額法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所教校的代理教師原額受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內\n我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括\n專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高\n新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同\n每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教室8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教室偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積\n並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是\n沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師\n那我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系他們當然有可能是有些專業科系只是他沒有去修教育學程可是我們要問的是因為少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比較高我們如何確保不管是一聘 二聘 三聘的代理教師他們真的有能力\n有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在\n聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下8%以下\n署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心小腳上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張\n現在像這邊提到 敦品 城鎮 荔枝 名陽有各自的臨床心理師 諮商心理師 社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是 我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底它還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來\n可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看笑角笑的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境\n是 報告委員 我們除了二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要 它是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營 這個班級裡面它有比如教導員還有導師 輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊\n那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛\n康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現\n國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能\n其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到腳下再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態\n這也是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角少現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙\n各位委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個爭講我們也要謝謝國教署\n好 我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦 播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟靈性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎\n我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝署長謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.790 --> 00:32.947\n好謝謝主席那有先請法務部謝謝麻煩法務部部長好謝謝部長部長剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了\n\n00:35.529 --> 00:57.345\n可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多長阿啦超阿啦剛剛阿川委員說的\n\n01:01.428 --> 01:14.907\n是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看?\n\n01:16.737 --> 01:39.298\n所有的這些證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判我們都追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去\n\n01:40.518 --> 01:59.049\n去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題\n\n01:59.969 --> 02:25.903\n如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對\n\n02:26.363 --> 02:53.552\n好所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注好不好好謝謝部長部長請回那接下來有請矯正署我們還是回到今天的主題喔\n\n02:55.754 --> 03:23.239\n好署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確但是我要再次強調\n\n03:24.239 --> 03:27.042\n相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼\n\n03:41.417 --> 04:01.572\n第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告\n\n04:07.065 --> 04:27.992\n跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好\n\n04:29.412 --> 04:48.544\n那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情\n\n04:49.845 --> 05:07.130\n也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺心如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理\n\n05:09.005 --> 05:28.340\n好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個\n\n05:29.762 --> 05:47.862\n少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說\n\n05:49.864 --> 06:08.333\n有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法\n\n06:10.054 --> 06:27.803\n可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從114年4月底為止這四所教校裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了55%\n\n06:29.304 --> 06:43.010\n也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂擱情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論用這個表格來看我其實臉不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下\n\n06:44.259 --> 06:56.454\n報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺\n\n07:00.939 --> 07:23.751\n所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動講義氣所以常常會聽到小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪\n\n07:27.011 --> 07:49.247\n打架跟逗喔當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22%\n\n07:51.088 --> 08:08.028\n報告委員這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在邵氏法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量\n\n08:08.408 --> 08:34.155\n為什麼要把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看\n\n08:34.895 --> 09:01.433\n端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到原額法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所教校的代理教師原額受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內\n\n09:09.036 --> 09:27.002\n我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括\n\n09:28.062 --> 09:50.571\n專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高\n\n09:51.431 --> 10:18.166\n新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同\n\n10:19.787 --> 10:42.864\n每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教室8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教室偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積\n\n10:44.225 --> 11:01.730\n並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是\n\n11:02.350 --> 11:21.339\n沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師\n\n11:22.299 --> 11:42.972\n那我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系他們當然有可能是有些專業科系只是他沒有去修教育學程可是我們要問的是因為少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比較高我們如何確保不管是一聘二聘三聘的代理教師他們真的有能力\n\n11:43.812 --> 11:52.497\n有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在\n\n11:59.401 --> 12:18.570\n聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下8%以下\n\n12:24.053 --> 12:41.699\n署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心小腳上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張\n\n12:45.660 --> 13:10.934\n現在像這邊提到敦品城鎮荔枝名陽有各自的臨床心理師諮商心理師社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底它還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來\n\n13:11.314 --> 13:33.834\n可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看笑角笑的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境\n\n13:34.574 --> 13:52.121\n是報告委員我們除了二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要它是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營這個班級裡面它有比如教導員還有導師輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊\n\n13:58.283 --> 14:19.884\n那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛\n\n14:20.464 --> 14:47.974\n康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現\n\n14:49.214 --> 15:14.321\n國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能\n\n15:14.921 --> 15:35.801\n其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到腳下再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態\n\n15:37.663 --> 16:01.888\n這也是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角少現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙\n\n16:02.788 --> 16:25.062\n各位委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個爭講我們也要謝謝國教署\n\n16:28.024 --> 16:50.229\n好我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟靈性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎\n\n16:51.429 --> 17:06.655\n我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝署長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.79,"end":32.947,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有先請法務部 謝謝麻煩法務部部長好 謝謝部長部長剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了"},{"start":35.529,"end":57.345,"text":"可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多長阿啦超阿啦剛剛阿川委員說的"},{"start":61.428,"end":74.907,"text":"是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看?"},{"start":76.737,"end":99.298,"text":"所有的這些證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判我們都追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去"},{"start":100.518,"end":119.049,"text":"去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題"},{"start":119.969,"end":145.903,"text":"如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對"},{"start":146.363,"end":173.552,"text":"好 所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注 好不好好 謝謝部長 部長請回那接下來有請矯正署我們還是回到今天的主題喔"},{"start":175.754,"end":203.239,"text":"好 署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確但是我要再次強調"},{"start":204.239,"end":207.042,"text":"相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼"},{"start":221.417,"end":241.572,"text":"第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告"},{"start":247.065,"end":267.992,"text":"跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好"},{"start":269.412,"end":288.544,"text":"那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情"},{"start":289.845,"end":307.13,"text":"也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺心如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理"},{"start":309.005,"end":328.34,"text":"好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個"},{"start":329.762,"end":347.862,"text":"少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說"},{"start":349.864,"end":368.333,"text":"有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法"},{"start":370.054,"end":387.803,"text":"可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從114年4月底為止這四所教校裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了55%"},{"start":389.304,"end":403.01,"text":"也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂擱情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論用這個表格來看我其實臉不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下"},{"start":404.259,"end":416.454,"text":"報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺"},{"start":420.939,"end":443.751,"text":"所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動 講義氣所以常常會聽到小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪"},{"start":447.011,"end":469.247,"text":"打架跟逗喔當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22%"},{"start":471.088,"end":488.028,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在邵氏法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量"},{"start":488.408,"end":514.155,"text":"為什麼要把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看"},{"start":514.895,"end":541.433,"text":"端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到原額法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所教校的代理教師原額受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內"},{"start":549.036,"end":567.002,"text":"我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括"},{"start":568.062,"end":590.571,"text":"專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高"},{"start":591.431,"end":618.166,"text":"新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同"},{"start":619.787,"end":642.864,"text":"每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教室8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教室偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積"},{"start":644.225,"end":661.73,"text":"並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是"},{"start":662.35,"end":681.339,"text":"沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師"},{"start":682.299,"end":702.972,"text":"那我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系他們當然有可能是有些專業科系只是他沒有去修教育學程可是我們要問的是因為少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比較高我們如何確保不管是一聘 二聘 三聘的代理教師他們真的有能力"},{"start":703.812,"end":712.497,"text":"有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在"},{"start":719.401,"end":738.57,"text":"聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下8%以下"},{"start":744.053,"end":761.699,"text":"署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心小腳上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張"},{"start":765.66,"end":790.934,"text":"現在像這邊提到 敦品 城鎮 荔枝 名陽有各自的臨床心理師 諮商心理師 社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是 我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底它還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來"},{"start":791.314,"end":813.834,"text":"可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看笑角笑的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境"},{"start":814.574,"end":832.121,"text":"是 報告委員 我們除了二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要 它是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營 這個班級裡面它有比如教導員還有導師 輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊"},{"start":838.283,"end":859.884,"text":"那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛"},{"start":860.464,"end":887.974,"text":"康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現"},{"start":889.214,"end":914.321,"text":"國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97%也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能"},{"start":914.921,"end":935.801,"text":"其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到腳下再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態"},{"start":937.663,"end":961.888,"text":"這也是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角少現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙"},{"start":962.788,"end":985.062,"text":"各位委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個爭講我們也要謝謝國教署"},{"start":988.024,"end":1010.229,"text":"好 我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦 播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟靈性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎"},{"start":1011.429,"end":1026.655,"text":"我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝署長謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時27分）謝謝主席，先請法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩法務部部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。部長，剛剛王義川委員已經公開告發了，我想要接著請問，關於這個示範帶，他們都還花了一些力氣，不管是叫人演還是用AI做，基本上都還是花了一些力氣，相關問題剛剛王委員都說了。可是我想要追問的是，假設真的讓在野黨輾壓直播的法律修改這個部分，以後所有的法庭只要被告申請或是當法官覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播，那是不是連造假都不用了，在第一時間，剛剛阿川委員說的很多「蔥仔」、「草仔」是不是當場就可以用這個直播片段開始造假、讓它在網路上擴散，當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力，你怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所有的這些證據資料都要在法庭上提供，我們非常反對用其他任何形式去干涉法院的審判，關於審判我們就是追求公正、公開、公平，所以也不能夠給承審法官極大的壓力而去影響判決的進行，我針對這個非常反對。","如果用一些其他的變造證據方式，譬如說有變造的錄音檔，或者是不實的、根本沒有卻冒充，我想這可能是法律上的問題；如果是完全不實的話，有可能是AI合成的這一種，我們也擔心這個可能有偽變造準文書的問題；如果這個裡面是用真帶去變造或者違反個資法提供，這還有個資法第四十一條的問題。所以我們非常不贊成，這會妨害司法公正，因此我們非常反對！"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以我們一句話總結，不管是事後再製，自己說是示範，或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播，確實如部長所說的，會給所有在場的人非常、非常大的壓力，可以說是一種妨礙司法公正，所以我們當然也不贊成。但是從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播的這件事情，我認為我們要一起關注，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，部長請回。","接下來有請矯正署，我們還是回到今天的主題。"],["周署長輝煌：你好。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，這張簡報你應該還記得，禮拜一的時候我其實就有跟署長討論過，我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年，不管是少矯校或者是少觀所，我想相關新聞我就不再贅述，你一定非常的清楚。","我們從監察院的報告來看，其實監察院從110年到114年都有相關的糾正，而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確，但是我要再次強調，相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單、快速、易達的解決方法，但是我認為我們務實地面對問題，才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位置的新到任署長，有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼。第一個，那一天署長自己有提到所謂的外部監督，而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告，我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後，矯正署積極地做了哪些少矯校或是少觀所的改進？尤其是針對這些同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教，針對監察院的報告有什麼比較具體的行為？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，有關少矯校的部分，我們有特別制定霸凌的規則，而且這個已經有函頒4所矯正學校，會在6月1號生效，這個是……"],["陳委員培瑜：今年的6月1號嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：對，今年。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以已經生效了？"],["周署長輝煌：對，6月1號。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。那少觀所呢？孩子們進來少觀所的時間或長或短的。"],["周署長輝煌：因為他進來少觀所的時間大概1到2個禮拜，頂多是4個禮拜，進出很頻繁……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是如果有學生之間的衝突、霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事件，通常在這麼短的時間內……"],["周署長輝煌：我們也會參考其他欺凌事件處理，包括他一進來我們都會宣導，不能以強凌弱、舊欺新，如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈，我們的場舍主管一定會馬上處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：你剛剛說6月1號霸凌防制準則在4所矯校已經上路的事情我們之後再來討論，因為才剛上路沒有多久，現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定。","可是我們回過頭來看，現在有法務部提供給我們的一些資料，我們來看一下、對一下我們從資料上解讀的對不對。第一個，從110年到113年少矯校學生的收容數，112年到113年就增加了22%，為什麼我特別框出來？之前還沒有去考察少矯校的時候，透過一些心理師、社工師還有一些老師私下讓我們知道，疑似啦！他們聽說有可能是因為割頸案之後，好像少事庭的法官容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進矯校，如同剛剛阿川委員說的，有一些在路上的孩子、在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心，或者是沒有人可以接住他們，所以可能法官就做出這個判定。但我們都只是聽到這種說法，而我們自己都有點懷疑這個說法，所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下。","我們跟你們要了資料，這都是法務部的統計，到114年4月底為止，這4所矯校裡面收了詐欺罪、傷害罪、竊盜罪的孩子大概就占了55%，也就是說，現在依這前五名的比例，我其實不是那麼確定割頸案之後，孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論，用這個表格來看我其實連不太起來。署長，你可不可以幫我解釋一下？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，一般青少年有一些特徵，第一比較衝動，第二比較容易被煽動或是思慮比較不周，所以有一些可能會淪為車手之類的，他認為這個錢好賺，所以詐欺罪就是第一名。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我可以理解。"],["周署長輝煌：他們很衝動、講義氣，常常會兄弟相挺，所以很容易會有一些打架、鬥毆的情況，在社會應該是這樣，在我們裡面，他們也會有這種情形，我們儘量防止。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以打架、鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪？你的意思是這樣？"],["周署長輝煌：打架、鬥毆，如果對方有提出告訴的話，也會是傷害罪。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以剛剛那個推論有可能是真的嗎？就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是，好像割頸案之後，112年到113年增加的人數變很多，而且比例增加了22%。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，當然。"],["周署長輝煌：因為法官他會通盤去考量，原則上現在少事法是以行政先行為指導原則。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道。"],["周署長輝煌：儘量不要裁到我們刑事機構，但是法官可能有他的考量。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼我要把這兩個合起來講？如果學生人數接近收容上限，後續很多在矯校裡面的問題，就會是您很辛苦的業務了。當學生人數變多，我們就回過來看，教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額，看起來應該是有困難，現在4所矯校裡面正式教師的人數跟代理教師人數，敦品的代理教師是38%，誠正是15%，勵志是21%。它可能是受到員額法的限制，也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難，也可能是因為其他的原因，我現在並不清楚，但是光看數字，我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下，到底矯正署這4所矯校的代理教師員額受不受國教署相關法規的規定，要壓在8%以內？還是少矯校不用接受這個8%的規定？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，國教署的相關規定，我們還是要遵守，跟委員報告，這些代理教師的比例，我們都會運用到他實際可以發揮專長的地方，因為我們是可以通用的，包括專科的教師、輔導的教師、特教的老師，他是可以流用的，所以我們不會因為代理教師的關係，影響到班級的經營跟運作。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你的意思是，可能有一些心理師或社工師被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義，所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高？"],["周署長輝煌：心社人員不是用代理教師聘用的，我們有規定一個班級是25位學生，比如說要有1個老師，但是我們相關的人數會變化，所以我們要有一些彈性。"],["陳委員培瑜：我認同要保有彈性，這個我絕對認同，就算是一般的國民學校，我們都還是認同每一個區域的限制需要保有代理教師8%這個彈性，可是如果按少矯校這個比例，看起來，我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高，而代理教師偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境，一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況，還有老師對於學校的理解，及老師所施行的課程可不可以真的累積並且發生效應在小孩身上，這是代理教師的部分。","再來，如果看到代理教師是怎麼聘進來，這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料，我們來看，如果是第一次考進來的，是有相關證照的，4所學校的數字看起來都還不錯；到了第二階段，就是沒有合格教師證的，但是經過甄試，他之前曾經有修畢職前教育學分，這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師；到了第三階段，因為都沒有人來考，所以只要大學有畢業就可以來考。我們看到4所學校都還是有只有大學畢業的老師，我們先不問他們原本各自畢業的科系，他們當然有可能有些是專業科系，只是他沒有去修教育學程，可是我們要問的是，因為少矯校的孩子的特殊性真的比較高，我們要如何確保，不管是一聘、二聘、三聘的代理教師，他們真的有能力、有專業、有認知協助這些孩子，而不只是因為他有大學畢業，他就來少矯校當代理教師？我們如何確保這些老師的狀態、能力跟專業？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們在聘代理教師方面，如果經過第三次的招考，我們第三招才會放寬他的一些資格，但是他還是要符合教師的一些任用條件，而我們三招的代理教師比例，據數據顯示是在8%以下。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，你還是沒有回答到我的問題，不過沒關係，因為時間有限，我們可以之後再討論。但我其實要讓署長知道，從師資層面切入，我們依然擔心少矯校老師負擔太大，或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠，我其實是想要一起跟署長討論如何解決現場的困境。","再來，這張圖提到敦品、誠正、勵志、明陽有各自的臨床心理師、諮商心理師、社會工作師，這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：是，國教署之前也有支援我們，今年年底它還有支援我們4位心社人員，目前4所矯校的心社人員是30位。"],["陳委員培瑜：總共加起來？"],["周署長輝煌：對，30位。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我們要問的是，就學輔法三級輔導機制分層來看，少矯校的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態，那我們要如何確保這些心社人員真的都有能力，並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二、三級需求的小孩？一樣，我其實還是看到可能的困境。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們除了剛剛委員提的二、三級之外，我們的一級輔導也很重要，它是比較發展性的輔導，所以我們有班級經營，在這個班級裡面，有比如教導員還有導師、輔導老師來主持成一個班級的團隊，有必要的話，它會再轉介到心理師、社工員，甚至於特教老師來做團體的協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：基本上，剛剛署長講三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的，只是我還是擔心，因為這個人力比、人數比，從代理教師一路看過來到心社老師，面對少矯校的學生，尤其是我剛剛一開始就說，在學生收容的人數越來越多，接近上限的情況下，你們有沒有機會跟國教署積極地討論增加心社人員這個部分？","好，主席站起來了，這個我們後續再討論。我最後再問一個，關於課程，孩子們的學力表現。我們去考察的時候，在回來時索取了資料，我們看一下孩子們在國文的表現，因為這些孩子可能都是15歲到18歲，可是我看他們在主要學科的表現，當他的國文程度考出來，落在小學階段的成績占了60%，英文占了86%，數學占了97%，也就是這些青少年的學力基本上都只有國小程度居多。我當然知道他們在原本的原生家庭、原生社區跟原來的學校，他們就已經被漏接了。當然我也知道這些孩子可能……其實也有很多少矯校的老師告訴我們，這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質，只是在原來的學校沒有被發現，在原來的家庭沒有被發現，所以他在原來的學校、原來的家庭學習學術科目，成績就不夠好，進到矯校後，再加上他原來犯罪的事宜，其實孩子變成一個非常複雜的樣態。這也是我剛剛跟署長討論的，如果我們真的認為心社的老師不夠、我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠，我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署，甚至是衛福部給予支持。署長，我要拜託您，可不可以把它盤點出來，讓國教署知道也好，讓衛福部知道也好，其實少矯校現在真的很需要各方的協助、跨部會的幫忙？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們明年初會針對心社人員提出一個試辦成果的報告，向行政院爭取，把我們的心社人員納入正式的編制。我們會跟國教署再來溝通，看心社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的增加。我們也要謝謝國教署，它其實幫忙了很多……"],["陳委員培瑜：我很開心聽到這個部分。最後的部分就是少矯校的課程，我們看到有播放弟子規、播放教化影片、生命重塑跟靈性生活，而且這個是routine的，一直做這樣的事情。當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短，所以這樣的課程好像可以比較快速操作，但是這樣的課程在少觀所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎？我想時間有限，我們可以之後再來討論，但是我是針對你的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長討論，我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子，他們在課程、師資還有輔導的部分，很需要我們大家一起努力，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：可是署長下個月就榮退了。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我先提問，他會幫我把問題帶回去。"],["主席：沒有啦，因為你說還要再跟他討論，我說署長下個月就榮退了。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林月琴","王鴻薇","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","葉元之","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張雅琳","林國成"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部\n警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年\n新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置\n輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及\n《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00007"}}}