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\"start\": 918.401, \"end\": 918.661, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"珠\", \"start\": 918.661, \"end\": 919.281, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 919.281, \"end\": 919.802, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 919.802, \"end\": 920.122, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"客\", \"start\": 920.122, \"end\": 920.302, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 920.302, \"end\": 920.442, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 920.442, \"end\": 921.242, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 921.242, \"end\": 921.482, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 921.482, \"end\": 921.622, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 921.622, \"end\": 921.642, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 921.642, \"end\": 921.662, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"譴\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 921.662, \"end\": 921.763, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"駁\"}, {\"word\": \"斥\", \"start\": 921.763, \"end\": 922.063, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 922.063, \"end\": 922.223, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 922.223, \"end\": 922.323, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 922.323, \"end\": 922.663, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 922.663, \"end\": 922.703, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 922.703, \"end\": 922.883, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 922.883, \"end\": 923.003, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"昌\", \"start\": 923.003, \"end\": 923.463, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 923.463, \"end\": 923.783, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 923.783, \"end\": 924.004, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 924.004, \"end\": 924.424, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 924.424, \"end\": 924.564, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 924.564, \"end\": 924.584, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,567 --> 00:00:15,670\n好謝謝主席有請鄭部長麻煩部長鄭部長我沒有叫出來是法務部的鄭部長對啊是的不是教育部的鄭部長不過今天這個很高規格兩位部長是三位部長還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個\n\n2\n00:00:36,018 --> 00:00:41,626\n很有影響力很有實質影響力的教維因為這個少年這個我們很重視很好我們都關心謝謝好下一頁\n\n3\n00:00:42,951 --> 00:01:07,783\n布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會\n\n4\n00:01:09,264 --> 00:01:36,367\n有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場\n\n5\n00:01:38,528 --> 00:02:05,913\n這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它\n\n6\n00:02:07,602 --> 00:02:31,421\n這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊\n\n7\n00:02:32,902 --> 00:03:00,033\n直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱\n\n8\n00:03:01,465 --> 00:03:08,636\n所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害\n\n9\n00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:37,192\n有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人\n\n10\n00:03:38,152 --> 00:03:52,354\n所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人\n\n11\n00:03:54,409 --> 00:04:15,066\n國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主偽造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任第二個\n\n12\n00:04:16,365 --> 00:04:34,344\n在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法\n\n13\n00:04:35,265 --> 00:04:41,710\n而向人民道歉向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐\n\n14\n00:04:59,565 --> 00:05:14,866\n只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道\n\n15\n00:05:18,359 --> 00:05:46,550\n謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度\n\n16\n00:05:47,430 --> 00:06:08,757\n再去做處理勿往勿終如果犯罪嫌疑我們要釐清要查個清楚該反的公道反的公正該法辦的該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜判我們也是非常反對就是用任何的形式來干涉司法妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個更離譜的是黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例\n\n17\n00:06:13,137 --> 00:06:38,346\n政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡\n\n18\n00:06:42,546 --> 00:07:01,158\n下一頁他至少違反了法院組織法至少違反了個人資料保護法甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪嘛至少有涉及違反這三個罪如果他是剪輯變造的\n\n19\n00:07:03,735 --> 00:07:22,058\n或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛是不是\n\n20\n00:07:22,778 --> 00:07:39,834\n這部分我有如果是真實的他不應該要提出律師該受懲戒如果流出的是律師因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人只有當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中\n\n21\n00:07:45,006 --> 00:07:54,008\n超入重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入院檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入院資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機用使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法\n\n22\n00:08:13,213 --> 00:08:17,969\n去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個人格權\n\n23\n00:08:18,982 --> 00:08:26,488\n所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層核層的甚至稱號還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是\n\n24\n00:08:47,463 --> 00:09:13,751\n不适合在这里播放的如果是拿真正的侦查光碟或是阴档出来他当然违反了刑法个人资料保护法还有刚刚我们讲的法院组织法你刚刚讲刑事诉讼法都有违反的法规非常多但如果是恶意的仿作或AI生成以假乱争就是一个立法委员拿着假讯息在这里恶整官员在这里乱带风向\n\n25\n00:09:14,611 --> 00:09:34,602\n這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員\n\n26\n00:09:36,038 --> 00:09:57,831\n不道歉還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥蒜就是蒜\n\n27\n00:10:03,052 --> 00:10:16,923\n真就是真假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解\n\n28\n00:10:18,513 --> 00:10:45,886\n知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂\n\n29\n00:10:48,157 --> 00:11:08,693\n所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好\n\n30\n00:11:09,369 --> 00:11:27,196\n辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好下頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個\n\n31\n00:11:29,257 --> 00:11:52,382\n問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲\n\n32\n00:11:54,562 --> 00:12:17,097\n所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題我們依著檢討我們少角學校的這些機制那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數大概都持平在1萬上下\n\n33\n00:12:18,278 --> 00:12:46,682\n甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分\n\n34\n00:12:47,602 --> 00:13:12,151\n趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎\n\n35\n00:13:16,177 --> 00:13:44,119\n這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是\n\n36\n00:13:45,440 --> 00:14:01,771\n兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁\n\n37\n00:14:03,732 --> 00:14:27,603\n第二個少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所\n\n38\n00:14:28,463 --> 00:14:33,549\n調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間夠了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了\n\n39\n00:14:38,542 --> 00:15:02,714\n這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的處意條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家\n\n40\n00:15:03,194 --> 00:15:24,584\n辛苦大家了司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥謝謝好謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員代理主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11567\t15670\t好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長麻煩部長 鄭部長我沒有叫出來 是法務部的鄭部長對啊 是的 不是教育部的鄭部長不過今天這個很高規格 兩位部長是三位部長 還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個\n36018\t41626\t很有影響力很有實質影響力的教維因為這個少年這個我們很重視很好 我們都關心 謝謝好 下一頁\n42951\t67783\t布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會\n69264\t96367\t有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場\n98528\t125913\t這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它\n127602\t151421\t這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊\n152902\t180033\t直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱\n181465\t188636\t所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害\n190120\t217192\t有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人\n218152\t232354\t所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人\n234409\t255066\t國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主偽造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任第二個\n256365\t274344\t在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長 主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法\n275265\t281710\t而向人民道歉 向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長 您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間 針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據 而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐\n299565\t314866\t只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道\n318359\t346550\t謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度\n347430\t368757\t再去做處理 勿往勿終 如果犯罪嫌疑 我們要釐清 要查個清楚該反的公道 反的公正 該法辦的 該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜判我們也是非常反對 就是用任何的形式來干涉司法 妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個更離譜的是 黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例\n373137\t398346\t政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡\n402546\t421158\t下一頁他至少違反了法院組織法至少違反了個人資料保護法甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪嘛至少有涉及違反這三個罪如果他是剪輯變造的\n423735\t442058\t或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛 是不是\n442778\t459834\t這部分我有 如果是真實的他不應該要提出律師該受懲戒如果流出的是律師因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人只有當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中\n465006\t474008\t超入重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入院檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入院資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機用使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法\n493213\t497969\t去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個人格權\n498982\t506488\t所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層核層的甚至稱號還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是\n527463\t553751\t不适合在这里播放的如果是拿真正的侦查光碟或是阴档出来他当然违反了刑法个人资料保护法还有刚刚我们讲的法院组织法你刚刚讲刑事诉讼法都有违反的法规非常多但如果是恶意的仿作或AI生成以假乱争就是一个立法委员拿着假讯息在这里恶整官员在这里乱带风向\n554611\t574602\t這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員\n576038\t597831\t不道歉 還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥 蒜就是蒜\n603052\t616923\t真就是真 假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解\n618513\t645886\t知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂\n648157\t668693\t所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好\n669369\t687196\t辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好下頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個\n689257\t712382\t問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲\n714562\t737097\t所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告 少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題 我們依著檢討我們少角學校的這些機制 那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數 大概都持平在1萬上下\n738278\t766682\t甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分\n767602\t792151\t趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎\n796177\t824119\t這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是\n825440\t841771\t兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁\n843732\t867603\t第二個少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所\n868463\t873549\t調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間夠了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了\n878542\t902714\t這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的處意條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家\n903194\t924584\t辛苦大家了 司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法 魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員 代理主席\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長麻煩部長 鄭部長我沒有叫出來 是法務部的鄭部長對啊 是的 不是教育部的鄭部長不過今天這個很高規格 兩位部長是三位部長 還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個\n很有影響力很有實質影響力的教維因為這個少年這個我們很重視很好 我們都關心 謝謝好 下一頁\n布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會\n有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場\n這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它\n這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊\n直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱\n所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害\n有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人\n所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人\n國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主偽造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任第二個\n在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長 主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法\n而向人民道歉 向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長 您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間 針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據 而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐\n只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道\n謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度\n再去做處理 勿往勿終 如果犯罪嫌疑 我們要釐清 要查個清楚該反的公道 反的公正 該法辦的 該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜判我們也是非常反對 就是用任何的形式來干涉司法 妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個更離譜的是 黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例\n政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡\n下一頁他至少違反了法院組織法至少違反了個人資料保護法甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪嘛至少有涉及違反這三個罪如果他是剪輯變造的\n或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛 是不是\n這部分我有 如果是真實的他不應該要提出律師該受懲戒如果流出的是律師因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人只有當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中\n超入重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入院檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入院資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機用使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法\n去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個人格權\n所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層核層的甚至稱號還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是\n不适合在这里播放的如果是拿真正的侦查光碟或是阴档出来他当然违反了刑法个人资料保护法还有刚刚我们讲的法院组织法你刚刚讲刑事诉讼法都有违反的法规非常多但如果是恶意的仿作或AI生成以假乱争就是一个立法委员拿着假讯息在这里恶整官员在这里乱带风向\n這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員\n不道歉 還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥 蒜就是蒜\n真就是真 假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解\n知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂\n所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好\n辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好下頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個\n問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲\n所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告 少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題 我們依著檢討我們少角學校的這些機制 那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數 大概都持平在1萬上下\n甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分\n趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎\n這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是\n兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁\n第二個少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所\n調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間夠了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了\n這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的處意條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家\n辛苦大家了 司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法 魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員 代理主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.567 --> 00:15.670\n好謝謝主席有請鄭部長麻煩部長鄭部長我沒有叫出來是法務部的鄭部長對啊是的不是教育部的鄭部長不過今天這個很高規格兩位部長是三位部長還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個\n\n00:36.018 --> 00:41.626\n很有影響力很有實質影響力的教維因為這個少年這個我們很重視很好我們都關心謝謝好下一頁\n\n00:42.951 --> 01:07.783\n布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會\n\n01:09.264 --> 01:36.367\n有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場\n\n01:38.528 --> 02:05.913\n這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它\n\n02:07.602 --> 02:31.421\n這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊\n\n02:32.902 --> 03:00.033\n直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱\n\n03:01.465 --> 03:08.636\n所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害\n\n03:10.120 --> 03:37.192\n有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人\n\n03:38.152 --> 03:52.354\n所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人\n\n03:54.409 --> 04:15.066\n國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主偽造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任第二個\n\n04:16.365 --> 04:34.344\n在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法\n\n04:35.265 --> 04:41.710\n而向人民道歉向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐\n\n04:59.565 --> 05:14.866\n只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道\n\n05:18.359 --> 05:46.550\n謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度\n\n05:47.430 --> 06:08.757\n再去做處理勿往勿終如果犯罪嫌疑我們要釐清要查個清楚該反的公道反的公正該法辦的該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜判我們也是非常反對就是用任何的形式來干涉司法妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個更離譜的是黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例\n\n06:13.137 --> 06:38.346\n政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡\n\n06:42.546 --> 07:01.158\n下一頁他至少違反了法院組織法至少違反了個人資料保護法甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪嘛至少有涉及違反這三個罪如果他是剪輯變造的\n\n07:03.735 --> 07:22.058\n或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛是不是\n\n07:22.778 --> 07:39.834\n這部分我有如果是真實的他不應該要提出律師該受懲戒如果流出的是律師因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人只有當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中\n\n07:45.006 --> 07:54.008\n超入重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入院檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入院資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機用使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法\n\n08:13.213 --> 08:17.969\n去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個人格權\n\n08:18.982 --> 08:26.488\n所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層核層的甚至稱號還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是\n\n08:47.463 --> 09:13.751\n不适合在这里播放的如果是拿真正的侦查光碟或是阴档出来他当然违反了刑法个人资料保护法还有刚刚我们讲的法院组织法你刚刚讲刑事诉讼法都有违反的法规非常多但如果是恶意的仿作或AI生成以假乱争就是一个立法委员拿着假讯息在这里恶整官员在这里乱带风向\n\n09:14.611 --> 09:34.602\n這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員\n\n09:36.038 --> 09:57.831\n不道歉還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥蒜就是蒜\n\n10:03.052 --> 10:16.923\n真就是真假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解\n\n10:18.513 --> 10:45.886\n知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂\n\n10:48.157 --> 11:08.693\n所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好\n\n11:09.369 --> 11:27.196\n辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好下頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個\n\n11:29.257 --> 11:52.382\n問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲\n\n11:54.562 --> 12:17.097\n所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題我們依著檢討我們少角學校的這些機制那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數大概都持平在1萬上下\n\n12:18.278 --> 12:46.682\n甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分\n\n12:47.602 --> 13:12.151\n趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎\n\n13:16.177 --> 13:44.119\n這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是\n\n13:45.440 --> 14:01.771\n兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁\n\n14:03.732 --> 14:27.603\n第二個少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所\n\n14:28.463 --> 14:33.549\n調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間夠了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了\n\n14:38.542 --> 15:02.714\n這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的處意條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家\n\n15:03.194 --> 15:24.584\n辛苦大家了司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥謝謝好謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員代理主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.567,"end":15.67,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長麻煩部長 鄭部長我沒有叫出來 是法務部的鄭部長對啊 是的 不是教育部的鄭部長不過今天這個很高規格 兩位部長是三位部長 還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個"},{"start":36.018,"end":41.626,"text":"很有影響力很有實質影響力的教維因為這個少年這個我們很重視很好 我們都關心 謝謝好 下一頁"},{"start":42.951,"end":67.783,"text":"布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會"},{"start":69.264,"end":96.367,"text":"有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場"},{"start":98.528,"end":125.913,"text":"這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它"},{"start":127.602,"end":151.421,"text":"這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊"},{"start":152.902,"end":180.033,"text":"直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱"},{"start":181.465,"end":188.636,"text":"所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害"},{"start":190.12,"end":217.192,"text":"有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人"},{"start":218.152,"end":232.354,"text":"所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人"},{"start":234.409,"end":255.066,"text":"國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主偽造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任第二個"},{"start":256.365,"end":274.344,"text":"在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長 主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法"},{"start":275.265,"end":281.71,"text":"而向人民道歉 向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長 您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間 針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據 而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐"},{"start":299.565,"end":314.866,"text":"只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道"},{"start":318.359,"end":346.55,"text":"謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度"},{"start":347.43,"end":368.757,"text":"再去做處理 勿往勿終 如果犯罪嫌疑 我們要釐清 要查個清楚該反的公道 反的公正 該法辦的 該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜判我們也是非常反對 就是用任何的形式來干涉司法 妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個更離譜的是 黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例"},{"start":373.137,"end":398.346,"text":"政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡"},{"start":402.546,"end":421.158,"text":"下一頁他至少違反了法院組織法至少違反了個人資料保護法甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪嘛至少有涉及違反這三個罪如果他是剪輯變造的"},{"start":423.735,"end":442.058,"text":"或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛 是不是"},{"start":442.778,"end":459.834,"text":"這部分我有 如果是真實的他不應該要提出律師該受懲戒如果流出的是律師因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人只有當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中"},{"start":465.006,"end":474.008,"text":"超入重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入院檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入院資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機用使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法"},{"start":493.213,"end":497.969,"text":"去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個人格權"},{"start":498.982,"end":506.488,"text":"所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層核層的甚至稱號還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是"},{"start":527.463,"end":553.751,"text":"不适合在这里播放的如果是拿真正的侦查光碟或是阴档出来他当然违反了刑法个人资料保护法还有刚刚我们讲的法院组织法你刚刚讲刑事诉讼法都有违反的法规非常多但如果是恶意的仿作或AI生成以假乱争就是一个立法委员拿着假讯息在这里恶整官员在这里乱带风向"},{"start":554.611,"end":574.602,"text":"這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員"},{"start":576.038,"end":597.831,"text":"不道歉 還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥 蒜就是蒜"},{"start":603.052,"end":616.923,"text":"真就是真 假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解"},{"start":618.513,"end":645.886,"text":"知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂"},{"start":648.157,"end":668.693,"text":"所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好"},{"start":669.369,"end":687.196,"text":"辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好下頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個"},{"start":689.257,"end":712.382,"text":"問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲"},{"start":714.562,"end":737.097,"text":"所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告 少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題 我們依著檢討我們少角學校的這些機制 那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數 大概都持平在1萬上下"},{"start":738.278,"end":766.682,"text":"甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分"},{"start":767.602,"end":792.151,"text":"趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎"},{"start":796.177,"end":824.119,"text":"這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是"},{"start":825.44,"end":841.771,"text":"兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁"},{"start":843.732,"end":867.603,"text":"第二個少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所"},{"start":868.463,"end":873.549,"text":"調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間夠了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了"},{"start":878.542,"end":902.714,"text":"這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的處意條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家"},{"start":903.194,"end":924.584,"text":"辛苦大家了 司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法 魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員 代理主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時45分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。我沒有叫錯吧？是請法務部的鄭部長，對嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：對啊，沒錯，不是教育部的鄭部長。不過今天很高規格，有三位部長來，還包括跨委員會，我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來，這是很有實質影響力的召委。"],["主席：因為少年這部分，我們都很重視。"],["吳委員思瑤：很好，我們都關心，謝謝。部長早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：我從教育文化領域到司法及法制委員會，我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習，因為我認為司法法制委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正一個很重要的場域，也就是我們要進行司法改革。這一屆立法院的司法及法制委員會有律師、檢察官、法學博士，照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度、司法制度的專業問政場域，但是這一屆的司法及法制委員會卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴，反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場。這一屆的司法及法制委員會，沒有用實質的解方從事更進步的司法改革，反而成了大型迫害司法的現場，我非常遺憾。我沒有當律師，但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道，面對司法，不要惡意去操弄它。","這個會期，因為有連署罷免這件事情，以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次在質詢的場域裡為難您，就個案的部分，對於檢調在查察偽造連署的事件，對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊。直到前幾天北檢起訴了，而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前，讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪鐵證如山，因為涉案的當事人已經認罪，包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦承不諱，所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀、首腦還在甩鍋，說是司法迫害，有的立法委員站在這裡說：憑什麼去針對中山、大同區的書記進行查察？是司法迫害！結果起訴書完整呈現，這位被立委在這裡護航、包庇的中山、大同區黨部幹部，事實上他是明確涉入整個偽造連署的事實相關人。所以我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說，一個泱泱國會的第一大黨，到目前為止，被起訴的五位都是國民黨人，國民黨人還在衝北檢、衝北院，國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉：第一個道歉是為整個偽造民主、偽造民意、盜用公民意志的行為向人民道歉，這是政治的責任；第二個，在面對不斷迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為，市長、主席帶著去衝北檢、北院的作為，國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法、用政治干預司法而向人民道歉、向社會道歉。我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉。","鄭部長，您是法務部的大家長，您對於這段時間，針對這個個案，我們一再說尊重檢調，檢調辦案的核心是證據，而不是政治，我們說破了嘴，在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐，只要是查國民黨人就是不對。我給您短短的時間，我認為您應當為這樣一個迫害司法公正的政黨，我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案人員一個公道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想辦案就是要講究證據，證據到哪裡當然就辦到哪裡，絕對不分黨派，凡涉及到犯罪勿枉勿縱、該辦就辦。"],["吳委員思瑤：該辦就辦，藍綠都要辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分事實上，我們辦的這些案件各黨派的都有。不管在偵查中、審判中，司法人員都是秉持客觀公正的執法態度在處理，勿枉勿縱，如果有犯罪嫌疑，我們要釐清、要查個清楚，該還的公道會還公道，該法辦的、該繩之以法就繩之以法。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們支持司法獨立、公正的辦案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也是非常反對用任何的形式干涉司法、妨礙司法。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要用政治力妨礙司法公正了。更離譜的是黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例，政客以假亂真。我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿，對就是對，不對就是不對，一個政治工作者還是學法律的人，用這種魚目混珠、真假不明的一個音檔，在國會殿堂操作他要的政治目的，我認為這是國會中比惡更惡的人。他至少違反了法院組織法、個人資料保護法，甚至也違反了刑法的偽造變造文書罪，至少有涉及違反這三個罪。如果他是剪輯變造的，或是他是真的拿到所謂的偵訊音檔，那就更要去查察是怎麼流出的。所以部長，您當天已經清楚地說，沒有示範帶這個事情，你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣真假未明的資訊，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果是真實的音檔，他不應該提出。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果流出音檔的是律師，他應該受懲戒。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為會取得真實錄音檔的人，只有法官、檢察官可以看得到，另外就是辯護人。依據刑事訴訟法第三十三條有規定：「辯護人於審判中得檢閱卷宗及證物並得抄錄、重製或攝影。」而且必須要有正當目的的使用，也講要行使防禦權。如果超越目的使用的話，因為這是錄音檔案，也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的錄音資料，是屬於個人資料，受到個人資料保護法的保護，如果要使用的話，因為非公務機關使用，所以要合乎第十九條、第二十條的規定，而且要依據第五條使用的話，還要用誠實信用的方法去處理，而且第一條也規範要在保障人民的人格權之下合理利用，所以我們認為這是非常不妥適的。如果涉及到偽變造的話還有偽造文書的問題，如果用AI生成、合成，還有變造偽造涉及第二百二十條的準文書罪的問題。萬一是律師提供的話，也有要受到懲戒的問題，所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放，主席也認為這個偵訊光碟是不適合在這裡播放的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，如果是拿真正的偵查光碟或是音檔出來，他當然違反了刑法、個人資料保護法，還有剛剛我們講的法院組織法，及您剛剛講的刑事訴訟法，違反的法規非常多。但如果是惡意仿作或藉AI生成以假亂真，就是一個立法委員拿著假訊息在這裡惡整官員，在這裡亂帶風向，這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的，這比王育誠前立委的腳尾飯事件更腳尾飯啊！王育誠當年的腳尾飯事件，他至少事後懇切的致歉，他也付出了他的政治代價，但是這位黃國昌委員不道歉，還持續用他的社群直播，持續做非常多鬥臭司法的行為，比王育誠更可惡的人就是黃國昌。蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛！蔥不要裝蒜，蔥就是蔥，蒜就是蒜，真就是真，假就是假，拿這種魚目混珠的作為站上質詢臺，我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解：「知法玩法鬥臭司法，以假亂真迫害司法」，這就是黃國昌的政治目的，而這也是我們在司法及法制委員會一再反對的，不要拿政治來干預司法，不要拿政治來鬥臭司法，不要拿政治來迫害司法，但是比王育誠更王育誠的黃國昌委員顯然食髓知味，所以我支持剛剛王義川委員向您提出來的質詢，該調查、該查辦，我都支持跟尊重，任何不當的流出，該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒，有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦，這就是司法，這就是國家的法制。好，辛苦你了，這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整，一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度為難您，我覺得部長真的辛苦，但我們為了司法真正的公正，我們要挺住。","接下來，我很快的點出今天主題的幾個問題，你們帶回去處理。第一個，今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題，但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年，青少年是青年跟少年的組成，如果依少事法的規定，少年是12到17歲，如果要精確的符合今天的報告，少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎？如果以少年犯罪的主題，我們依著檢討少矯學校的一些機制，我要具體的呈現，從2020年到2024年的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數，大概都持平在一萬上下，甚至在少年的暴力犯罪、重刑犯罪及刑事犯罪，像暴力犯罪是從104人降到56人，刑事案件維持三百多人。","換言之，我認為不要危言聳聽，我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年矯治，這麼多年投入整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員，讓我們在整個少年犯罪的部分趨於減緩，但是犯罪人口率提升，是因為母數，也就是少子化的關係，所以在統計上，我認為要精確。當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪，但是今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪，我認為這要導正它，我的數字應該是正確的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的數據是由警政署提供的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒問題。我很快地提出幾個提醒，少輔會的功能不彰，2019年修正了少事法及2023年縣市政府完成少輔會的改制，但是到目前為止，警政署對於少輔會，我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少輔會，因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是2萬3,000件，幾乎是透過少年輔導先行制度的5倍以上。我今天時間不夠，我就先點問題，希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論。少輔會的功能不彰，警政部門的合作似乎不夠，那麼的明確，你們要檢討。","第二個，針對少年矯治學校的管理疏失，監察院一直提出報告，有三個改善要點分別是：要建立外部監督機制、要為矯正人員減壓與建立矯正人員的支持體系，以及要儘速制定「少年矯正學校處遇實施條例」，讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工。我認為這個部分就如監委所調查的，你們還沒有做到，我們下一次再來持續地論述。不好意思，因為時間到了，沒關係。最後讓署長說明一下在這個部分的努力，因為您要榮退了。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，您提到了少矯校的處遇條例，我們已經在今年的3月報請行政院，現在在審核當中。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，希望您離開這個崗位前，最後可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議很久的制度，我們一起來努力完成它，好嗎？好，後面還有一些問題，我希望未來還有時間再來請教大家，辛苦大家了。","司法及法制委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域，而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場，不要再用政治力干預司法，從事知法玩法、魚目混珠這種政客的行為，我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","接下來請黃國昌委員代理主席。"],["主席（黃委員國昌代）：好，謝謝。因為召委要質詢，所以由我現在先代理主席的位置。","下一位質詢委員有請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林月琴","王鴻薇","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","葉元之","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張雅琳","林國成"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部\n警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年\n新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置\n輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及\n《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00007"}}}